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Archangel
09-30-2001, 10:40 PM
On the street, the person that usually wins a confrontation is the person that is willing to go the ****hest. Lets put it this way, if myself and Rickson Gracie fought over a parking spot he'd probably wipe the floor with me. However if he threatened my family and the ones I loved, he'd be dead, no questions asked. It all comes down to mentality and conviction; Being big, bad and skilled will most definately help but it will not be the deciding factor in a street fight.

This is a truth, that can be applied to all facets of combat. What really scares me though is when I look at the confrontation that America is about to enter I have to ask myself, does America have the BALLS to fight this kind of war. People often state that the men who hijaked those planes were cowards. I disagree, they were desperate men that were willing to sacrifice themselves in order to make a statement to the world. Think about it, could you do it? Could you take a plane full of people and smash it into a building just to hurt your enemy.

How do you defeat an enemy like this, an enemy that has absolutely nothing to lose. How far is America willing to go to win.

Martial Joe
09-30-2001, 10:43 PM
No matter how mad you would be he would still kick your ass...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

Martial Joe
09-30-2001, 10:44 PM
About the country thing...

They may not care about dying but their power isnt enough...

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif IXIJoe KaveyIXIhttp://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/lolup.gif
I am Sharky's main man...

Chang Style Novice
09-30-2001, 10:49 PM
Buy me a nice dinner and I'll go ALL THE WAY!

uh, what was the question?

_______________________
This space intentionally left blank.

GunnedDownAtrocity
09-30-2001, 10:50 PM
i really don't think it's going to be an all out war like everyone is thinking.

imo it's going to be allot of extensive intelligence and police work backed by the military. we have to find out who the enemy is, where they are, what they plan on doing, and then erradicate them. i know things don't look that good right now, but i don't think that we will be going to war with a specific country.

if we do go to war with afganistan, or any country, i think that we will bomb the sh!t out of them and sacrafice tons of our own ground troups until we get bored with it all and decide to give up. i really don't see what this will acomplish so i hope it doesnt come to that. the only reason we have to attack another goverment is if they admit to harboring or aiding terrorists in any way. if they eventually get tired of being assulted by most of the rest of the free world they will agree to our terms and still operate the same as usual (to the best of their ability if they are then policed by us) behind our backs.

you're 100% right. we can't do much to those who are willing to die by their own hands. there is no way to punish them. well ... i can think of ways but it will never happen and if it actually did we would never hear about it. all we can do is seek them out and eliminate the threat of their existance.

where's my beer?

Kung Lek
09-30-2001, 10:52 PM
The convictions of a fly will not help it out of the spiders web.

More power than you have is simply that.

If I have a gun, and you have nothing, you lose period,in a violent confrontation.

If I have Martial skill, and amm 100 lbs heavier, twice as fast, and think better than you in a violent confrontation, you lose regardless of how you feel.

This is reality. Moral tales do not apply, nor does moral conviction.

As for the "terrorists", upon being caught, they are toast, period.

But ya can't toast the bread that you can't find. That's the only problem.

The people who attacked the free world are envious coward scumbags and nothing more. Hiding out in their make believe world.

The only thing they are changing is their own life expectancy. And the ability of any one in the sympathizing countries ability to immigrate to the free world, even if they are ok.

The free world will only be free to those that are in it soon, and that's too bad that a few cowards gotta screw it up for the rest of the world, but that is bitter reality.

peace

Kung Lek

OdderMensch
09-30-2001, 11:24 PM
or should I say Bill Mar from "politicly incorrect"?

worry not good friend, we've balls a'plenty and bombs, tanks, guns and jets to back it up.

A "war" with "Afganistan" would be tough, but we can do it if need be. Me i hope and pray that it won't come to that, we bomb 'Laden then root out his followers.

kwokfist
09-30-2001, 11:27 PM
you wish you could kick gracie's ass

Ryu
10-01-2001, 12:53 AM
The scary thing is that there's a lot of people in the world that will do what it takes to beat you (even if that means shooting you a week after you kicked his ass) He wins the "fight".

Best to not fight unless there is no other choice. :)
Like I've always said, the "tuff guy" image is all fantasy.

Ryu

http://www.jkdu.co.za/pics/logos/jkduhpma1.gif


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

Buhma
10-01-2001, 01:19 AM
I would rather be called "Bill Mahr" than "Jerry Falwell"

Let me ask you all this....with all your so called martial skill... I fight you with a gun. Do you call me a coward?

Before you answer...
America fights with cruise missiles and tanks and jets... (me with the gun)

Thos crazy terrorists fight with their very lives.... (you all with your bare hands)

Who is the coward there?


(as a matter of fact, I do carry weapons on my person at all times....does that make me a coward to have an edge?)

OdderMensch
10-01-2001, 01:57 AM
but who and when.

US - trys to hit military targets, bases, guys with guns ect.

*******s - civilians

would I be a brave man if i snuck upbehind Ken Shamrock and cold cocked hin? no. Would I have defeated him in unarmed combat?yeah kinda.

and I am, in general, against the "Anti-septic" ideal of war.

rogue
10-01-2001, 04:49 AM
“Are you guys ready? Let’s roll.”
Last words of Todd Beamer heard over his open mobile line right before rushing the hijackers.


From now on, enemies who are associated with terrorist activity will not cohabit the globe with the United States of America. William F. Buckley

"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban soon to be getting his first of 70 virgins.

Never forget

SLC
10-01-2001, 03:01 PM
Sorry, Archangle, but I disagree with your basic conclusion, that "will" overcomes all "might". Take it to the extreme: Pit a determined quadraplegic against a bored Bruce Lee. Put your money down, son! Who do you want in this match?

As far as applying this to our war with terrorism, it might be time to reconsider what "win" means. Winning against terrorism is not going to be like winning a football game or a boxing match. In those, the bands play, crowds cheer and the foe knows he is beaten and the conflict is over.

With terrorists it is never over. It may be more like fighting termites. Just because you have your house treated, doesn't mean the threat is gone and it is time to party. It just means you have closed one vulnerable avenue to one nest of termites. There are always other nests and other avenues.

There are also places where they nest, multiply and feel safe. These must be "treated".

In the end, there is no end; just as there is no end to crime or disease. Victory is no more than "temporary control". Terrorism has just become one more nasty fact of life that all of us must accept and come to personal grips with. Sept 11 just made it personal to each American, where before it always happened to "other" people.

Ben Laden, your operation was good; real good in fact. But you fu*ked up one little thing... you didn't get all of us.

Archangel
10-01-2001, 05:12 PM
If Rickson Gracie or any other man seriously threatened my family, he would be dead. If that means me pulling out my spyderco and slicing his throat then so be it; If that means pulling out my baton and going to town on the top of his head, no problem. Even if he did kick my ass, I'd be back with my friends or a gun and i'd finish it. That's how far I'm willing to go to protect my family.

America has the largest and best equipped military in the world. On the battlefield there is no country that can match us. In this fight however there is no battlefield. Much like Vietnam we have an enemy that lurks in shadows and attacks visciously without any warning. We limped out of Vietnam with our tail between our legs and were embaraced in front of the world.

The question is, have we learned from our mistakes and do we now have the stomach to finish this war.

SLC
10-01-2001, 05:45 PM
Your "elaboration" looks strangely like a re-statement of your original post. Both seem to imply that just because you become enraged and would pull out all the stops in defending your family, you will have been granted some kind of immortality, since your cause is just.

I am not questioning your will or dedication or bloody-mindedness. I am just saying that "cause" does not equate to immortality. There's lots of dead people that had good causes. Once you are dead, it doesn't matter how dedicated you WERE.

Don't get me wrong, though. I'm certainly not saying there is no place in life for the "blood feud". I'm saying that just because you're in one, don't get hooked on the idea that you get some magic bullet-proof vest and that all your enemies will fall before you like dry leaves in the wind.

Last, Vietnam was not a military loss. The big man won on the battlefield. It was a political loss where that military victory was wasted by political restrictions. But that is quite pertinent to your comment, "...have we learned from our mistakes and do we now have the stomach to finish this war." We shall see. :)

Ben Laden, your operation was good; real good in fact. But you fu*ked up one little thing... you didn't get all of us.

Buhma
10-01-2001, 05:53 PM
Yeah, we as a people do have the resolve to "finish" this. The only problem, as SLC already stated, there is no finish line we can cross. The most we can do is to minimize terrorist acts by beefing up our security. Of course to do that, we will lose the very freedoms we are fighting for. It's a trade off... security for freedom. The sad thing is most people in this country will opt against freedom.

Oh and I don't think ANYONE in the military is a coward. As I said, many of my friends are in the various services and I support them for fighting for our country. The thing is, they may give up their lives for this country....will the regular people? Archangel already asked how can we fight an enemy willing to sacrifice themselves? Any suggestions? Bomb a whole country? Deal with each terrorist cell? Just get Bin Laden?

Dubya did one thing right (probably Cheney's plan) he did right to freeze the assests of the terrorists. Without $$$ they can't fight.

Stumblefist
10-01-2001, 06:07 PM
"they were desperate men that were willing to sacrifice themselves in order to make a statement to the world. Think about it, could you do it?"
...
The actual terrorists may probably have people who had little to do with feeling the grievances of the Muslim world. They may have just been opportunists who rose to the top of a criminal organization and they found they had the bad luck to draw the wrong card.
One of the major car bombings in Lebannon was a 16 year old girl. That's not a dedicated terrorist. That was a threatened and manipulated person.
It goes like this: Hey Archangel, the boss has decided your are going to do a suicide. No you can't back out of it, youv'e been shouting silly slogans in crowds for the last 4 years as part of your job saying how you will do exactly that. If you don't, you will no longer have any place in our society, your whole family and friends will be in disgrace if not killed. You certainly will be killed anyway and tortured if you refuse, and there's nowhere for you to run, no witness protection program. If you accept, you will be a martyr and your family will be well provided for.
That's a choice?
Don't you see in movies how the mafia can manipulate people the same way? It's movies but the method is real.
The chinese used it to assasinate the head of the secret service for Chiang Kai Shek. The pilot was told by the communists, if he didn't drive the plane straight to the ground , every one of his family members would be killed. Unfortunately for him, the guomintang then killed every one of his family members in retaliation.
Anyone can be pressured to do it. 16 year old girls and even Americans (against another country) can be pressured.
So it's not such a heroic, courageous, self-sacrificing act viewed in another light is it?
...
Done from fear.

"A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell."

SLC
10-01-2001, 06:10 PM
This is most of what Gen (Ret) McCaffery has to say about it. He ran the drug war after retiring from the army.
*******************
There will be no end state...we will, if successful, manage this chronic threat to our survival, economy, and self-confidence by dramatically lowering the risk. We will build a series of defensive programs that will make a multiple order of magnitude increase in our day-to-day security.

Second, we will form a coalition based on common danger. Much of the globe will join us to leverage foreign intelligence services and security forces to fight these FTO's forward in the battle area. Finally, we will at last take the gloves off and use integrated military power to find, fix, and destroy these organizations.

We are going to disrupt these people thru pre-emptive attack...we will deceive them, we will run psyops on them... at selected points and times
they will be killed suddenly, in significant numbers, and without warning. Tomahawk missiles, 2000 lb laser guided weapons dropped from B2's or F22's at very high altitude, remote control booby traps, blackmail, and at places...small groups of soldiers or Seals will appear in total darkness.blow down the doors and kill them at close range with automatic weapons and hand grenades.

We will find their money and freeze it. We will arrest their front agents. We will operate against their recruiting and transportation functions. We will locate their training areas and surveillance or mine them. We will isolate them from their families. We will try to dominate their comunication function and alternately listen, jam, or spoof it. We will
make their couriers disappear. If we can find out how they eat, or play, or receive rewards, or here they sleep...we will go there and kill them by surprise.

The military component will be a supporting but lesser aspect of a strategy that will be based fundamentally on diplomatic and economic leverage to compel cooperation with international law. Of prime importance, we must reduce the environmental factors that feed this type of extremist madness...foreign aid must be dramatically increased to address the misery
and poverty of the Palestinians, the Afghan's, the Sudanese and others.

We must also not be unwilling to confront the State sponsors of terror.Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Cuba, North Korea.... none can be allowed to provide the base for another sickening strike against our civilian population or our Allies. Conventional military power will be used at the end of the day to place at risk those states that present a direct threat to our security. If deterrence does not work with coherent political and economic measures in support of a threat capability...then their political will must be shattered with overwhelming violence directed at their armed forces and the political decision-makers.

The big challenge will be to organize America to protect our transportation, our economic activity, our entertainment...etc. with minimal invasion of our privacy and our free movement. We will constrain domestic law enforcement through the protection of our Judicial System. We will ensure the unfettered operation of a free press. We will have to be zealous to protect the Bill Of Rights and the dignity and safety of foreigners living among us during this War.

We can do all of this. We have no option. The American people will depend on you and your fellow soldiers to step forward and stand between us and the barbarians.

BRM

Ben Laden, your operation was good; real good in fact. But you fu*ked up one little thing... you didn't get all of us.

Stumblefist
10-01-2001, 06:31 PM
"Much like Vietnam we have an enemy that lurks in shadows and attacks visciously without any warning. We limped out of Vietnam with our tail between our legs and were embaraced in front of the world.

The question is, have we learned from our mistakes and do we now have the stomach to finish this war."

The American Command and Forces structure learned from their mistakes before the war ended.

I am currently reading "A Better War" by Lewis Sorely. "The unexamined victories and final tragedy of America's last years in Vietnam." 1999.

In this, Geneal Abrams had virtually won Vietnam by 1972. America's withdrawal of support lost the war after that. And in face of the continued will and supply by both China and th USSR. (But then that cost the USSR the cold war !!)
BTW; in the vietnam war Viet Cong ceased to be an operational threat by 1969, they had been cleaned out. Over 90% of the pop remained under GVN control and it stayed that way. Thereafter it had become a conventional war.
Abrams also changed the stragey from "body count" to protection of the vietnamese people and resticting the bombings to the operational theater.

But what is really interesting is the "learning from our mistakes" part. Abrams began the reforms and initiatiatives for the next generations leaders.
Sorley states that it was Abrams' (died 1974) learning from Vietnam that credits "the victorious force of the Gulf War". It was the "Abrams vision in action ...modern equipment, effective air support, use of reserve components and advanced traing to keep our people alive on the battlefront" that accounted for the stunning success.

Give it a read, it'll give you a new perspective.

"A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell."

[This message was edited by stumblefist on 10-02-01 at 09:54 AM.]

Stumblefist
10-01-2001, 06:44 PM
"were embaraced in front of the world" (for withdrawal from Vietnam).

...
Quote from William Shawcross, leading anti-vietnam war protester...20 years later.

"Those of us who were opposed to the American effort in Indochina should be humbled by the scale of suffering inflicted by the communist victors - especially in Cambodia but in Vietnam and Laos as well."

"A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell."

Stumblefist
10-01-2001, 06:50 PM
"does America have the BALLS to fight this kind of war?"

Well ok, another perspective. How do we handle Mad dog killers?
Due process, belief in justice, strong police force. We don't need to be berserk like them.
....
Same as WW2 against the japanese, we didn't have war as a religion complete with hara-kiri for failure or surrendering. We just sent regular guys. With regular balls. :)

"A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell."

tnwingtsun
10-01-2001, 07:06 PM
>Could you take a plane full of people and smash it into a building just to hurt your enemy.<

Could or would?

The resolve of the US Special ops community has
never sunk.

U.S. Army Special Forces
Creed



I am an American Special Forces soldier. A professional! I will do all that my nation requires of me.

I am a volunteer, knowing well the hazards of my profession.

I serve with the memory of those who have gone before me: Roger's Rangers, Francis Marion, Mosby's Rangers, the first Special Service Forces and Ranger Battalions of World War II, The Airborne Ranger Companies of Korea. I pledge to uphold the honor and integrity of all I am - in all I do.

I am a professional soldier. I will teach and fight wherever my nation requires. I will strive always, to excel in every art and artifice of war.

I know that I will be called upon to perform tasks in isolation, far from familiar faces and voices, with the help and guidance of my God.

I will keep my mind and body clean, alert and strong, for this is my debt to those who depend upon me.

I will not fail those with whom I serve. I will not bring shame upon myself or the forces.

I will maintain myself, my arms, and my equipment in an immaculate state as befits a Special Forces soldier.

I will never surrender though I be the last. If I am taken, I pray that I may have the strength to spit upon my enemy.

My goal is to succeed in any mission - and live to succeed again.

I am a member of my nation's chosen soldiery. God grant that I may not be found wanting, that I will not fail this sacred trust.


Something to think about as we live comfortable
lives.

Stumblefist
10-01-2001, 07:16 PM
"We limped out of Vietnam with our tail between our legs and were embaraced in front of the world."

Hmmm, i read "embraced", looks like it ws embarrassed.
Maybe that was an unconscious "portmanteau", Archangel? ,, a lapsus portmanteau :)

Oh well, the Shawcross quote is still a good one.

"A wish to go to Heaven is the very beginning of falling into Hell."

Archangel
10-01-2001, 08:27 PM
Stumblefist,

DOOOHHH, ya that was supposed to be embarrassed. Here I am making fun of someones spelling on another thread, geez am I ever embaraced ;) . Anyways, The war against Japan was not going to end, they would have fought until the last man if they thought they had a chance. It was us that ended it by going ****her than any nation has before.

SLC,

You are right, nothing is a hundred per cent and no one is invulnerable. however if one man is willing to pull a knife or a gun, regardless of the consequences, i'll put my money on him.

"There's lots of dead people that had good causes. Once you are dead, it doesn't matter how dedicated you WERE."

Perhapes their opponents had greater passion, and were willing to go just a little bit ****her than them.

shog
10-02-2001, 02:55 AM
So if one were pitted against a Gracie, who is say that they too are not in the mindset to protect or provide for the safety or security of their family as well? If someone attacks you, who is to say that they themselves are not already stressed or under duress. Under this presumption alone, and using Arch's logic for the situation, he would be the one who could be getting killed or hunted down by a Gracie, and so on.

No matter how much training you do in order to be prepared, something may come up that you are not prepared for. This is so, for we are human and subject to imperfection. An imperfection or set of imperfections that could even include: not being able to compensate timing issues, balance, speed, or power differences, blinking when you move, looking off to the distance, focusing you eyes or body on the target(without the intent of fooling your opponent), etc.

So aye, there's the rub. Count on perhaps doing your best (one does not know until it is over in regards to knowing if they did their best),and continue to persevere in training and all the other challenges that face you...though this does not equivalate to success, it will help you deal with the consequences should those consequences be such that you are still able to do so.

Humanity, Justice, and Swift Punishment to those who kill innocent people in the false name of peace.

God Bless America!!!!

chris

rogue
10-02-2001, 03:24 AM
Then again you might just rush the swine and ruin their game plan.

http://www.interesting.com/stories/gadsden/images/museumshop.jpg

From now on, enemies who are associated with terrorist activity will not cohabit the globe with the United States of America. William F. Buckley

"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban soon to be getting his first of 70 virgins.

“Are you guys ready? Let’s roll.” [I]Last words of Todd Beamer heard over his open mobile line right before rushi

iron thread
10-02-2001, 03:30 AM
"On the battlefield there is no country that can match us."

We americans would not seem as tough, if we lost our allies to the enemy side (Not that that is going to happen, but I'm just suggesting for us not to get cocky about this whole we rule the world military wise case).

Stumblefist
10-17-2001, 07:24 AM
"But nearly five weeks later, FBI investigators and their European counterparts are considering another scenario: that many of the hijackers did not know they were going to die."
...
More of the truth and details are coming out.
I just had to say "I told you so" :)... maybe.
Although i thougth it was done a different way, but still it's in doubt.
-------------------
my former statement:
"Why assume this?:"
"they were desperate men that were willing to sacrifice themselves in order to make a statement to the world."


http://www.msnbc.com/news/643903.asp?pne=msn&cp1=1#BODY

"This is the end
My only friend, the end
It hurts to set you free
But you'll never follow me"

soy
10-17-2001, 08:49 AM
Once again. If only more people listened to buddha.

I'm not willing to do anything. I forgive the terrorists for what they did. I want everyone to be good to each other..


The endless cycle of hatred and revenge needs to stop some time. Might as well be now.

Stumblefist
10-18-2001, 05:48 AM
I forgive them too, soy. I don't want to make anyone suffer anywhere.
...
But forgiveness is not a cup of tea, we can't exactly invite Osama to a beer and pizza party.
...
Now about ending the cycle of violence...... do you prefer a .38 or a glock?.. or suicidal protest?
...
I don't' think the US is going over the top. It seems reasonable.

"It hurts to set you free
But you'll never follow me"

tnwingtsun
10-18-2001, 06:12 AM
I like you sometimes.........

"No matter how mad you would be Rickson Gracie would still kick your ass"


But boy,you've got a lot of growing up to do.

frosh2786
10-18-2001, 05:43 PM
kwokfist and martial joe are correct. dream on.