Fights

[Ryu]

I just sat down and tried to recall all the fights I had up until this point in my life, and wrote them down in a little book. I was thinking I had maybe 7 or 8 but as I started really remembering things I wrote down 20 fights I had from elementary up through high school. Including 2 more serious fights during my adult years after high school. :(
****, what kind of punk kid was I back then? It was strange seeing the number, and even though it was dumb kid stuff (well some were much more serious than others during my late teens) it still made me think.

I guess the experience is good in itself maybe, but anyway. Not that 20 is any real high number though.

Actually I will beg the question. How much real experience do you think is necessary to be able to defend yourself well?
Suppose someone has never been in a real fight, but trains and spars extremely realistically. Does it counter the inexperience on his part? What do you think?

Ryu

[ewallace]

I think they would be better prepared, but there isn't much that can simulate a good bare-fisted shot to the nose with no one around to say "Okay...that's enough". Not saying he couldn't win the confrontation, but there is just nothing that can really emulate the adrenaline, fear and uncertainty of a street fight. Especially if he was alone and the other guy has friends around.

[Tigerstyle]

You can have no real credibility until you hold the record of over 300 fights and have never been defeated.

[Ryu]

LOL@Tigerstyle.

[Ralek..]

Ryu,
Here's a spin off your question. If it's true that real fight experience is the only way to be sure you can defend yourself in a real life situation - what do you do?
Often I've heard stories in different MA circles, for example: Yip Man (WC) would encourage his students to go out and start real fights to see if their "stuff" really works. Ok, that's great and romantic and everything, but who would be stupid enough to do something like that in our society today?? There are problems with that on many levels. It's basically playing Russian Roulette because eventually your gonna pick the wrong fight (ex. 5 friends jump in and pound you, you get stabbed, shot, etc..)
Not to mention that we live in a society based on laws. You have the right to defend yourself, but you dont have the right to f@ck with someone just so you can test your MA skill. People who think that's cool are probably better off spending time in therapy rather than the dojo/kwoon.
So, if you train all your life and get into 1 fight, maybe you get your @ss handed to you by someone who's naturally tough but never trained MA. Wouldn't that suck? :(
So in closing, why waste your life training MA so you can defend yourself when you can just carry a gun? BTW - this question is intended to encourage further debate :)

[Johnny Hot Shot]

Who Cares,

Fights are something to be avoided.

The more you fight the better you get at fighting.

Practise does inhance fighting skill. The more realistic the better unless you are getting injured more than you are training.

Martial arts is more than just phisical conditioning, It is also Mental awarenes having the sence to avoid situations/environmenta that could lead to possible violent confrontations.

I think that the most important gain from martial arts training is confidence. Confidence and a positive attitude will get you further that a fast punch or a good takedown.

What I'm saying Ryu That it's better to be able to talk your way out of a situation than it is to fight your way out.

[Xebsball]

I think that if you train a lot, spar and stuff it doesnt make diference wheater or not you have had a certain number of real fights to be able to do well in them.

I had many fights with my brother.
The older ones i remember i defeated him by pulling his hair.
Our form of family combat evolved ever since and the very last ones include punches, kicks, takedowns...
I remember the last three:

1) At the time i was reading a Wing Chun book but on real training all i had learned were the basic stances from Eagle Claw since i only had one week training.
I dont remember the reason for it to start...
He charges at me and i sort of turn my head away and while he is behind he hits me with some hooks to the face, 2 or 3 actually hit so i turn away and push him i think.
We face each other, i punch him with a wing chun vertical punch i just learned it lands but has no power. He is a little stunned or distracted and i follow up with a double leg and take him down over to the sofa (see im nice, i could have hit his back on hard floor if i wanted).
So now i go to my brothers room and he follows, there we go blah blah blah, kick your ass, blah blah.
We start punching but we dont hit ****, until one of his lands lightly, then one of mine (roundhouse punch i think its called) lands on his teeth and gets him ****ed of.
I move to my room, and he follows me running. I have no space so i end up falling over my bed. He starts punching and im covering up the best that i can, he hits me in the head and stuff.
We break up then, end of fight, my face feels weird and stuff.
Either i won by superior technique or he won by points. Or maybe a draw.

2) He is talking on the phone with someone, i decide to tease him. So im doing a few finger jabs directed to his throat. One of them hits lightly but you know how sensible is this area of the body. He gets ****ed of and hits me with two roundhouse kicks to the tight. Im real angry and totally ready to kick his ass. My mom interupts us...

3) This one with kind of friendly. He provokes me and then i decide its time he learns the hard lesson of locking. None of us is striking anyway.
He tries to keep his arms near his body so that i cant lock him and ****. So i grab his throat, he grabs mine, i escape from his, he escape from mines. Somewhere on the prosses i got one of his arms and im not sort of at his side.
From there i do a standing kimura that is not really perfect (he is not feeling pain, its kinda like sakuraba did to Renzo while standing) and he goes: "What you doin" "I think your kung fu is not helping" then i show him i could easily throw him from there and make his face hit the floor (or sofa).

[koycymru]

I've been in only a handful of fights, but I've been luckier as far as being able to avoid them goes.

[KC Elbows]

To me, the following seems to have held true:

Low quality training, no sparring, no real fighting=terrible fighter, clean conscience

High quality training/sparring, no fighting=few minor injuries, maybe a major one, decent to great fighter, clean conscience

High quality training/sparring, fight background=definite injuries, great fighter, not lilly white, but not the devil either

Heavy fight background=too many fights for too few reasons, maybe great later in life, once the stupidity/posturing gets old

Mind you, I suppose a person could be stuck in a situation where they must fight many times, cannot escape from the circumstances, but there would have to be quite a few extenuating circumstances for the person to come away with a clean conscience(slave in gladiatorial arena, etc.)

[qeySuS]

On a sidenote ever notice how your friends with no training seem to get into a ****load of fights all the time? I havent been into a fight since i was 14 and that was basicly rolling around on the floor trying to hurt each other.

So my question is this, do non MA get into fights just because, they just talk smack and get into fights and dont really care, they have not much to prove. And on the flipside, do MA guys not get into fights because they think they'r above it and talk their way out of it, or is it because they are afraid they might not do so well? I know i have wondered if i'd get into a street fight if i'd do any good and if i wouldnt what that would say about my training (if anything)? Just a thought.

[fa_jing]

I have been in 15 fights, and was usually defeated. Oops, I'm still breathing, so, I was never defeated!! Take that Emin.
P.S.: All of my fights were before I turned 16.

Fah-Jing!!

[red_fists]

Hi Queysus.

So my question is this, do non MA get into fights just because, they just talk smack and get into fights and dont really care, they have not much to prove.

A lot of untrained People don't have the understanding of what is involved in a fight, possible outcomes, etc.
Also the haven't got the Discipline that most good MA got.

Liquor is also often involved
in those fights.

Liquor does't take the fear away, but kinda lowers the acceptable levels of social behaviour and thus we do stupid things we would never do when sober(dancing naked, fighting, sleeping around, etc.)

So we get drunk and do things that our normal social conditioning would prevent us from doing. Being drunk is often used as the "golden excuse" to justify those behaviours.

And on the flipside, do MA guys not get into fights because they think they'r above it and talk their way out of it, or is it because they are afraid they might not do so well?

2 things:
Most MA I know after years of study loose the desire to fight. (see below)
May it be realisation that fighting is useless, people only get hurt or simply knowing that they got a good chance of beating that Guy.

The other thing I think is Injuries we all love to train MA, but if we get injured in a fight we have to take off to recover from possible Injuries.

Also having developed good MA skills kinda gets scary(to me atleast), as I know that I can hurt somebody accidently if I happen to loose control.

Once I was so absorbed in what i was doing when my Girflfiend approached me an laid her hand on my shoulderr. I simply reacted and threw her halfway across the room onto the Coffee table via the couch.

It scared the living daylights out of me.

Example:
Kinda like that favorite sports car you been saving for 15yrs.
At the beginning you think you will dice all your Buddies in Town
Then you think of driving fast.
Picking up Chicks.

But one you get the car, you realise you waited 15yrs for it, and are lothe to risk that 15yrs investment/saving by driving fast or reckless unless in an environment where the safety is kinda guaranteed.
Also by now you have matured 15yrs (hopefully).

Yep, still a Sports car.
Yep, still can go faster than other Cars.

Not driving fast does not take anything away from the Car, still looks cool, impressive and CAN go fast when you touch THAT Petal.

Just my viewpoint. Other people might differ.

[PHILBERT]

I've been in probably, more or less, close to 100 fights in school. I use to be picked on alot when I was younger and so I got in fights like once a week, and most I lost, :mad:

I won several, and the one I remember most was when I beat the crud out of some kid in the library. He would constantly tease me and I finally got mad at him in the library one day and smashed his face into the wall. He never messed with me again.

[qeySuS]

Nice response Red_fists liked the Sports cars analogy.

[tsunami surfer]

Ryu when the time comes for action you will automaticly know it and you will react as you have trained to react. When we entered WW2 we got our asses handed to us at first but after hard training we were soon whipping battle hardend soldiers with years of experiance. If you have a hard quality training program going you will kick ass when the need arises. Just remember to train hard because someone else is training harder than you.

[Satanachia]

I've never been in a real fight. And personally, i'd LIKE to keep it that way.

I mean don't get me wrong, i did all the wrestling with friends and hitting each other when i was younger, but i'd never even be close to consider that fighting. Add in the fact that i never get angry, which also means i've never started a fight.

I don't get how you people have been in 10+ fights. Either its your neighbourhood or your doing something wrong.

[dezhen2001]

what do you class as a 'fight' though?

If you mean like a high school scuffle, then i've been in hundreds. Almost always lost :mad: I used to get bullied when i was 12/13 by 5 guys who were 17! Every day they tried to take my dinner money and shlt and i usually got poled on a lamp post (iron crotch! :D) and thrown in a bush, my head flushed...whatever. That was until i hit one of their heads off an enamel sink!

If you're talking fighting at clubs, then i've been in a few. I don't drink so it was usually pretty 'easy' to control the situation. Apart from the time i got stomped by 3 guys:mad: Took one out though...Usually it was trying to calm down a situation to stop my friends getting beat up...

But if you're talking really scary stuff - not just someone who is drunk, but someone who really wants to do you damage...cold and methodically, then i would say only once. That was when i got mugged last year. What did i do? Basically crapped myself, dropped my wallet and phone on the ground, managed to get out from underneath that guy (who was holding me down and had a knife) and legged it!

Thankfully the speed i run is directly proportional to who is chasing me.
The scarier the person/people chasing me=the faster i run :D

david

[Yung Apprentice]

I've been in about 18 fights. Almost as many as my age 19. I guess it's where I live, plus I have a hot head cousin, who gets into things and I wind up backing him up.( If there is more than 2 ppl that is) I've lost three fights. Only two of them were fair, one of the fights i lost was to two guys. But they didn't walk away unscathed!:D Another loss I had was one of the most even fights I've ever been in. He beat me, but not by much. Then there was my first fight. That one I had my @ss handed to me! I was in the sixth grade, and fought a eighth grader who was held back.( he was supposed to be in the ninth) He was freakin 6'2". I knew I was going to have to fight him and so I threw the first two punches. Got 'em clean on the jaw, and that was all she wrote. Cuz I didn't get a single hit off after that! Black eye ,bruised cheek, busted lip, bleeding like crazy all over. A few days later, I saw him, and he thought that I was cool for standing up to him, "it showed that I had balls". We actually became friends after that.


My last fight I'd been in, was about a year ago. I fought this small guy. Small guys give me the most trouble. If they can stick and move, I'm screwed. Well N E who, he was doing just that, I couldn't even touch him. I'd throw a punch and miss. So instead of swinging, i just went to him, I took a couple hits to the jaw, got close enough where I grabbed the back of his head, pulled it forward while punching thru. Knocked him out cold! First time I ever did that with one punch! He started twitching, and I got scared and ran!

[Asia]

Fights are something to be avoided

That may be true but being someone who studies MA this is hypocritical. MA is about fighting. It is about violence but we strive to avoid it but send so much time perfecting our MA skills.


As far as fights go. I can't recall. I have fought for anger, pleasure, and money. I actually enjoy it. I know this may go against much of what most pple art tought but I have proven that if you enjoy MA you do harbor a thrill for violence.:eek: If you didn't you would have found another form of physical discpline.
Ponder this: Do you think a person who has little or no REAL fighting experience could defeat the person who constantly engages in fisticuffs? Logic dictates NO, but....

[Ray Pina]

I think there is something to be said about plane old toughness.

I know some poeple who have had sort of a pampered life. Hey, God bless them. But I for one think a bit of struggle makes one tough, has been my experince growing up. Now, some of these poeple know lots of forms, "spar", but lack any "fighting spirit".

They have everything inside of them, but it never really comes out. When they fight, they get that intitail clash, but lack that fire to explode through it and come out on top. When two of these types spar each other, it looks bad, like a chick fight.

So, everyone is different. But I think there is soemthing for having gotten in there, taken a few and given a few.

I actually haven't been in a street fight in quite some time -- more mature, smarter. A few months a go at a club though some juice head grabbed me rather roughly because his girl was dancing near me. I played it off and kept dancing but my arm raised and and gave him a nice shot to his tricept from below. He pulled his arm back like he touched a hot stove.

I saw him go back to his friends, talk it over. I saw there were three of them, all bigger than me. Then I saw him come again, and this time like he wanted to tell me soemthing. He reached out to grab my chest, I got to his outside, actually had his arm in perfect position to lead him, or even hit and and maybe go for a snap (or at least try). But that getting to the outside was enough.

"Is that your girlfriend?"

"Yea."

"Well then why don't you dance with her."

With that I walked away, because I was dressed nicely, there were three of them, and it was his girlfirned and I could understand. Just that these juice heads standing around in a packed club with their shirts off gets annoying.

1) Who wants to rup against a sweating guy anytime, let alone on a sat night in a club?

2) Why stand on the dance floor if your not dancing?

3) Why think you can just man handle someone because they are smaller?

Anyway, I digress

[fa_jing]

Bigger than you? I thought you were 215 pounds!!

Anyway losing fights when I was in elementary school, getting jumped in a 20 to 4 altercation in high school, made me bitter. It probably has had very negative effects on me. It has made me tough though. And, if my life is in danger or my loved ones attacked, I believe I have the instinct to kill. It also gave me an appreciation for the suffering of human beings. I'm a non-combative person overall.

-FJ

[Ray Pina]

Yea, these guys were huge. They were a little taller than me but more massive, and not talking the little baby fat I got going around the belly. I honestly think I could have dropped the first guy before he knew what happned, and then have been free to tangle with one. But not two. Just being honest. And then bouncers would have come, and plus maybe othjer friends.

KC Elbow, how's this for extenuating circumstances :

Walking home from school through Newark with green pants, a yellow shirt and green tie (d a mn! Catholic School). This was when I had most of my "fights" -- 5th to 8th grade. I'm glad, none of us were so big as to cause serious damage. Though I did get poked with a pointy screwdrive and pulled out sciccors once myself when I got jumped.

Other than that, a few brawls in HS and college, and all helping out a friend who got himself in trouble over a girl or a big mouth. Other then the experience above, I had one when I first moved and friends warned me not to ride my skateboard in the "ghetto". I laughed, coming from Newark. Sure enough someone tested me. And the occasional run in with out of town surfers who are disrespectful, down't understand sharing waves or not polluting a beach they are visiting.

I don't see myself getting into another street fight again.

[Justa Man]

i think if you train the right way you can do well in real fighting. i've often wondered 'how will i really know if i have skills if i don't really test them?' but i also think that if you train enough and do lots of meditation to keep the mind quiet, you will respond as you have trained in a real situation.
on a personal note, i've been in a few fights in my time...not many. i never liked fighting because i was almost never mad enough at another person to want to see them in pain. when confronted by someone who really wanted to hurt me i'd straight book (run) cuz their desire for inflicting pain scared the crap out of me. sometimes i got away, sometimes not.
there were 2 instances where i was p!ssed enough to hurt someone. i totally changed into another person and put a real bad whoopin on them. i mean, i totally wasn't myself...my entire mind/world was filled with the desire to make the other guy a bloody mess, and a voice of reason was no where to be heard in my head. afterwards, when i calmed down and came back to being myself, i was horrified at how i hurt these people for such trifle reasons. i actually went home and cried one time. fighting has always been a weird thing for me. i can get pushed around and insulted to the enth degree, but if that switch in my head is flipped (which isn't voluntary), i totally lose it.
i do know that when people tense up in real situations, they lose any training they've done. that's why i stress the meditation. any of you who want fighting skills better be doing something to quiet the mind.

[KC Elbows]

I forgot to mention in my first post where I fall as far as training vs. fighting.

In high school, I got in a number of fights, but not really serious stuff, nothing that counts as full out, life-or-death fighting. Mostly fought like a boxer, a really bad boxer, but a boxer, and did OK.

After my time at chung moo, I went through a really funky period where I made some phenomenally bad choices. One of those bad choices put me in a fight with a guy who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. He managed to get me in a headlock, and I was about give him a real mean shot to the ribs with my elbow, he was situated so that, when I got my leg behind his, he was open for the shot. Suddenly, I couldn't do it, he didn't deserve it, he was just trying to stop me and I was just senselessly fighting. I spent the next minute trying to think of a nice way out of the lock, and, when I couldn't find one, I told him I was done. Regrettable choice, but it did reveal to me a weakness in my fighting and in my personal ethics.

Other than that instance, I have not been in a fight in adulthood. However, I have been in training situations that, for a few brief moments, escalated into exactly the same level of intensity(not emotionally, but as far as danger), and I've learned a lot about what I can do and what I need to develop from those moments.

I think everyone who seriously spars has had those moments, and when they're over, both practitioners step back and look at each other with that look of "Wow! That was amazing!" combined with "Dude, you almost cracked my skull!" Because of these moments, I think that training can make a good fighter even without "actual fight experience".

I talked with my teacher about this last night. He was a brawler before he took up kung fu. Here's the brief version of his take on it:

-In a year or two, a person who goes out and gets in constant fights can become a good fighter, and might not go to prison.

-In a few years, someone who studies fighting and spars can become a good fighter

-In decades, someone who does high level form and really applies reason to how they use and practice the style could become a good fighter, with or without sparring.

He feels that sparring is the best path, as one remains on the ethical high ground(my wordy phrasing), but still has the chance to directly test techniques. Coming from a brawling background, he respects what that teaches, but not the path itself(too much regret/negativity). As far as the third path, he respects it highly, but never had the chance to be one of those practitioners due to the life he's led. I didn't think to ask if he'd actually met anyone who fulfilled the third criteria, and I have not, but he seems to consider it possible to do so, though it is not how he himself practices. I'll ask him tomorrow if he can think of an example of someone who struck him as a solid fighter who did not spar or fight substantially in their background.