Songs/Poems of Pak Mei Gung Fu

[Pakmei]

Just wondering if any of the Pak Mei brothers have had any songs/poems of Pak Mei that their Sifu or SiGong have given them.

My Sifu, gave me some Songs/Poems of Pak Mei, detailing the system of Pak Mei. These Songs/Poems were passed down from Chueng Li Chuen and his son Chueng Bing Lam and later given to my Sifu (Tang Cho Tak).

One of the poems gave a great detail on Gow Bo Tuew and how to attain the true essence of the form and the Lohk Geng (6 Powers).

Please guys I am only interested in a discussion for knowledge and understanding of our unique art, so lets keep this topic constructive for everyone!!!


I have fortunately been given these poems in both Chinese characters and in English translation.

Dave Stevens

[mantis108]

That would be marvellous. I knew there are quite a few couplets, sonnets, and poems but I was give only a few of them. I have one (collection) done in jpg format if you are interseted, I can send it over to you. I love to see yours as well. Glad that there are being kept. Like many stuff (Ng Heng Mor for example) in Bak Mei, if we don't preserve and promote them, they will soon be lost. That would be an irresversible mistake. Please free feel to contact me atsifu1@internorth.com

I would also revive the old thread on one of the couplets. Check it out

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[MoQ]

So what is the source of this stuff?

[fiercest tiger]

Did your sifu give you permission to give these poems out?

these poems are usually kept in the system, not given out to people you dont know and dont give a sh!t about you. no offense mantis 108 :rolleyes:
that isnt directed at you.

its great that you want to share knowledge and you seem to be helpful, but watch what you give out and who to. :)

some poems yes, some no! these poems descibe the inner workings and training skill of pak mei and are like a code for pak mei practitioners that are up to certain levels.

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[Shaolin Master]

Unfortunately I tend to disagree, PakMei & Mantis108 are ok in their approach.

You see every Martial Artist (Bak Mei ) inclusive knows that no one can learn the art from poems, the keys to the poems are only understood by those that train in the art itself so why would you worry. Thus the only ones with benefit are those with knowledge of Bak Mei already.

Also, I am sure some poems are retained out of respect to ancestors, so those are most probably not to be revealed. So don't worry.

Relax it is y2k1.

Regards

Shi Chan Long

[This message was edited by ShaolinMaster on 01-18-01 at 11:35 PM.]

[fiercest tiger]

i dont think that its right to just give your systems info out over the internet to everyone, i understand your point and i definitley know what year it is!

my post say's SOME YES, SOME NO!!

dont give out advance pak mei info out of respect to your sifu.

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[Shaolin Master]

Cool Then ! some yes some no, but only because of respect not because they give info others may use right!

So do you have your poems in English, OR does someone translate them for you FT.

Mine were only passed in Chinese that is why I ask. Every empty hand Set/Routine almost has its own poem, amongst the general poems. Actually this is how it is all passed.

Regards

Shi Chan Long

[meltdawn]

Well, FT, we all know YOUR hesitancy to divulge ANY of your teaching over the net! :)

Your admonishments fall to the wrong individuals. Though we don't know him well YET, Dave seems to be genuinely interested in deepening the level of conversation. He has been one of the few people to state his background and begin discuss REAL kung fu.

As for Mantis108, he seeks to positively affect the martial arts, and he has benefitted all with whom he corresponds. His assessment of others is quite admirable, yet that is not my judgement to make. His intentions are honorable, his study thorough, and his character impeccable. He is an individual, student, and teacher of the highest caliber.

I do hope that some readers may take your remarks to heart. Not every word is meant for all ears, and not every ear is ready to listen objectively. AND many words are not understood by those who speak them.

FT, as a teacher you would know that a student who is not ready to learn will NOT learn. As a man who proclaims to have lived in Guanzhou and HK for so many years, you would also know that Chinese translation, ESPECIALLY historical text in traditional characters would be decipherable yet virtually unintelligible to the average "westerner", and much less so to the practitioner unaccustomed to the style. One can talk TTFC all day long, but one won't understand it until one feel it, and one won't feel it unless one practice it relentlessly under a master. A paper tiger does not a martial artist make.

On this subject, how do you pick your students and what qualities prompt you to advance them? Do you teach them Chinese poetry? Calligraphy and the meaning behind the characters? It is the essence of truth. Do your students who post understand the moral and martial couplets taught, as well as the "history" preached as correct?

Since we know a little more about you now, this would be very interesting and possibly beneficial information.

Back to the topic: Dave or Mantis108, would you care to post a "low level" couplet for our enlightenment and discussion now? I'm wiping the drool off my chin in eager anticipation...

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

[fiercest tiger]

i agree dave may be a genuin individual just wanting to share his knowledge and information. his sifu handed this info to him in a manner of trust and respect not to give out certain information to just anyone but to his loyal students, toi dai.

especially here on the net!

some poems are for training, for the alter, patience and perserverance, animals spirit, discribes forms, postures etc. its like your sifu giving out his secret families dit dar jow formula over the net and not to the students.


my comment wasnt directed at mantis 108 and ive said this, im sure he is a good student and sifu, im not doudting that. really i dont give a sh!t if dave wants to give it out, but in honour and respect for the style and sifu i wouldnt, "why" because people on here NOT ALL dont deserve it!! only my loyal students will get all from me, it wont be given out for money or gold. like the pak mei creed says.

ive studied in china and hongkong many times and still do! never lived there for many years as you say. ttfc is only felt, talking about is fun, if your not shown you will never know how to do it, you are correct.

i try and look for students with personality, honesty. respect goes both ways in the kwoon, i dont play god, they call me sifu. i love my students and they love me. we have a good respectful school no ego and we have a good time training. we all go eat and have yum cha and do stuff. students that do have egos usually snap out of it or leave. especially when a young junior can hold a horse stance for a longer period than an adult can. :D they quickly eat the humble pie.

im interested in seeing these poems too! but just remember dave not everyone on here is your friend and training bro. :rolleyes: please dont think im having a go directly at you because im not. im just trying to help you!

i dont teach caligraghy, and they will know all poems i have, i dont hold back secrets, but they have to deserve the imformation. no free ride at my school!! :D


hope this helps :)

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[mantis108]

I hear both sides of the argument. To be honest, I debated about that myself quite often. Personally, I don't believe in secrets. There are details in Kung Fu, not secrets.

FT, I think you make a good case by saying that knowledge of the system should be respected. You have the right to safe keep what is imparted in you. But then again, we will have to ask ourselves why are we on this forum? I believe the spirit of the forum is to share information with and give support to our fellow martial artists. I understand and appreciate that you stated your post weren't directed towards me. It is also very thoughtful of you to caution Dave. Nontheless, I am very glad to know that Dave is in the spirit of sharing so far.

Also have to thank Meltdawn for her kind words.
:o :D


I personally have been inspired by our brothers like Kevin, Lau, Lu etc... Their generous sharing has enriched my study immensely. For that, I thank them from the bottom of my heart. I can only hope more people would have benefited from their good example through this medium.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[fiercest tiger]

thanks for your reply.

there is nothing wrong with sharing knowledge & training theories. you are definitely right about kfo as a source of learning - thats why im here too. we all seem to get good info from each other & different views, we can see things in a different light. good conversations can open many doors in your training.

i trained very hard for many years to get some information from my sifu, you understand that i would be reluctant to put it up on the internet.

i have no problem speaking about all sorts of training, but there are some things that i hold close to me, mainly out of respect for my sifu & system. i believe people should earn some information. when my students have shown their loyalty & dedication to me & the system, THEN i give them certain info & skills thet i feel are a higher (or deeper) level of understanding. there are no secrets - but im not going to broadcast my systems finer points.

yes - i agree, some people have been very generous - and i DO appreciate that. i try my best to answer most topics, i hope youve gained SOMETHING from my posts. :)

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[BIU JI]

If you think this way then why don't you put some poems on the net and see if I can't figure out your system.¬

[Shaolin Master]

Sure,
Here you go, see what you come up with


Notion of Extreme Emptiness, One Breath Circles within Three Directions, Supporting Heaven Lead Breath, Turtle And Dragon Playing In The Water, Yin And Yang Both Appear, Palm Turns In Four Directions, Three Rings Encircle The Moon, Twin Dragons Emerge From The Cave, Dragon And Tiger Join Together, Hands Strum The Lute, Golden Rooster Rouses, Turn Left, Hold A Ball, Both Arms Shaking Palm, Dragon And Tiger Join Together, Little Capturing Hold, Moon and sun unite upon the heavenly plane.

Regards

Shi Chan Long

[fiercest tiger]

those are names of movements not poems about training the movements etc. :rolleyes:

arent we talking couplets here? like "baat ding bart but, sau choom sum faht". stance and punch poem (a little one that everyone in bak mei knows, or should anyway).

****e, if its just names of movements your after ill tell you everything you want to know. ;)

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[Shaolin Master]

Good then, talk about names of movements and you'll tell all, in honesty
right. Fine then please enlighten us with the names of the movements of
say........Ng Hang Mor, Meng Fu Chut Lum, yau gung sup bat seung toi jeung.
I didn¡¦t think so ! :)

Remember this I am not sure how aware you are the little groups of movements
is that which follows a set yes, but within it and the names it captures
breathing, technique, positions, powers, and much more.. Most sets have a
poem that includes not only the 'Couplet' as such theorems but it integrates
them with the movements and the metaphorical explanation for them.
Individual sayings/poems are thrown throughout for different reasons on the
basics and power training, but the forms ah the forms.
You see all movements have at least two names, one that describes the motion
in terms of what it is and the other in terms of what it represents and
pertains to the so called 'technique' name. it also encompasses the moves
predecessor for example though it may be 3 fu zhao's in succession, the
movement might emphasize a different method of releasing/executing them as
you would/should know. As a result the movement could be named fierce tiger
furiously running down the mountain. Thereafter it is added as 3 chun yun
hei breaths whilst tiger descends the mountain, now the technique is still
the same but its poetry releases a certain understanding, yet even then one
must understand the chunyun hei meaning.

These are all very common features that all teachers of martial arts that
have inherited the essence (ie keeper, successor etc ) of the style should
know. As an example I am sure Chen Yong Fa would know as would Cai Long Yun,Lum Jo and many other so called lineage holders, . The others sort of acquire knowledge from here and there aspiring to keep it secret yet they treat respect as the
reason not knowing it is nothing more than their limitations. Though one may
be a great fighter, a great individual martial artist, great humanitarian
and the rest, this does not necessarily make a great teacher. Great Teachers
are not becoming they have become and many are yet to understand Great
teachers need not hide their knowledge because they understood there is
nothing to hide in the first place. But remember this what one knows or does
not know, what one sees or does not see do not constitute reality rather
personal limitation.

With Respects
Regards and Peace

Shi Chan Long

[This message was edited by ShaolinMaster on 01-21-01 at 06:13 PM.]

[BIU JI]

Perhaps good teachers just don't want this information being given to some-one that they don't trust to not use it without care and for the wrong reasons or to those that have not earnt it through dedication to the system .
What would be the point?!
Yes there should be no need to hide your system but at times as you should know (being a teacher yourself SM) there are those who do not deserve it.
Some just talk all sweet but don't measure up.

[meltdawn]

Gee, SM, you must have one helluva library! ;)

On the topic of secrets, there's another thing to be considered. In this day and age, when school challenges are almost nil, there is still an undercurrent of distrust remaining. Older masters "remember when" stealing from a system was a real threat. Some of you have seen it on this forum; you befriend someone and give them information, only to have it exploited to their "master" later. This still goes on in the real world, even though it is a little easier to decipher. It is ridiculous and pathetic when someone snoops so low as to spy on another school. It is a vainglorious and, yes, still dangerous pursuit.

Generally, those people who have the information and are willing to share it publicly are probably very consciences of the deceit factor and have considered their decision carefully. I like learning more about my style and those related to it, and I have good intentions. Maybe I'm a minority, but so is my style. I have found the only way to garner any information is to make contact with other humans of the same style. You don’t find too many books on this stuff, and even those are written by humans who may be biased. :)

Some of the info is little-known, such as lineages, but certainly not secret. And many discussions on body mechanics can enhance any martial artist’s performance, not specifically release secrets. The TTFC thread was wonderful, and that was pretty close to the bone. Keep up the info, guys!

Dave, you're not scared off by a little *****cat tumbling down the hill, are you? ;)

Where’s this couplet???

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

[fiercest tiger]

well obviously you are not trusted by your sifu or simply NOT ready for information. :eek:

dave i hope i havent scared you off? you see meltdawn needs help, she needs a sifu that wont hold back information from her and she wants her poem RIGHT NOW. :(

meltdawn give us apoem from lung ying, share your knowledge and give us the names or the moves from dragon piercing the heart pole. give out all you can, why not!! :rolleyes:

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[fiercest tiger]

once again i misread one of your posts! and i didn't have my goddess with me to calm my spirit - so, as per usual, i took it the wrong way & flew off the handle.

no excuse, i know, but ive just found out something quite interesting about an associate of ours here on kfo. i was a little disapointed (to say the least), so my post to you was worse than it otherwise would have been.

please ignore my previous post. meow?

:)

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[meltdawn]

I quit taking offense to your posts about two months ago. :)

I've never been dishonest about my background. It is better to remain quiet and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

I accept your apology. Ngoh m seung dak jui nei. Please remember that good masters are hard to find and good students even harder. You can't say I'm not enthusiastic. :)

If I had a couplet (I am learning to read, write and speak Cantonese, so maybe soon), I might share it. Nei ming m ming baak a? If I knew a staff form and felt comfortable discussing the intricacies of it with you, I'd do so by email. My teacher has probably given me more than I can really understand the depth of at this point. I am not in a school setting, so my curriculum may differ from what/how you are used to learning/teaching.

As for my comments about "spying", it's a personal experience. Still goes on and it sucks. Saying it here and showing it to someone are two totally different things.

San nin fai lok!
Ting yat joi gin.

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

[fiercest tiger]

thanks for accepting my apology - i will TRY and be composed in the future (no promises :D )

its great that you are learning cantonese - i lost a lot of mine when i came back from hong kong. i know all the chinese names etc. in my system (my sifu never learnt english, so i had to try to learn cantonese), but beyond that and the basics, im afraid that my cantonese is pretty limited. im actually trying to find an english speaking cantonese program to learn more - but all ive come up with is cantonese for mandarin speakers... not much good to me. oh - i know some swear words too from when my teacher used to go off ;)

i would like to discuss lung ying with you. what you train etc. one of my students previously did a little dragon from one of lam yui gwais students. i would be interested to know how and what you train.

"good masters are hard to find and good students even harder" - you dont know how many times i have said this!! that is why i dont like to give out too much info to those i dont know... i reserve that for my loyal students & trusted friends.

i understand what you are saying about spying. there are a few schools around this area that are known for it. i had a student recently tell me out of the blue that he is an instructor of another kung fu system. apparently he took our conditioning drills and some of our theories and principles back to his other school. he had told me that he had had some experience - but i had no idea it was like this.

the knowledge your teacher gives you - treat it like gold (as they say). anyone can film or copy a form - but it is the knowledge behind it that makes your system powerful.

do je (sp?)
joi gin
:D

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[Pakmei]

Guys, at the moment I am extremely busy with Lion Dancing for Chinese New Year.

I will be putting this couplet up, for your inspection, but it will be after the 28th Jan.
When ALL lion dancing has finished for me.

I know I have been rather quiet in here recently, but but I have been popping in, in between my working hours to see who is actually interested in this couplet...

I agree that there are some people that most probably very untrustworthy, but I think most of the people on this disussion board come across as genuine.

Dave Stevens

[BIU JI]

Lo bat ming baa nei ming m Dim kong ma
ming baa

[meltdawn]

Lo bat ming baa nei ming m Dim kong ma
ming baa

Your (sp) not understanding my understand not how --- not understanding?

I guess my Cantonese needs work. English please.

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

[BIU JI]

No i'm sure its my chinese, actually it was the nei i usually write lei instead and didnt know ming mm was "clear" i thought i was saying i dont understand nei ming mm but it didnt mean anything in the end .
Are you confused yet? i am! haha

[Pakmei]

Everyone this is the couplet I was talking about a couple of weeks ago.....enjoy!

10 Important Points of Pak Mei.

3 Doors / Gates, Ba Gwa Strength.

4 Doors / Gates, Fast like Wind & Rain.

Tun To Foa Chum, takes hard work & training.

6 Powers hold tight, then you achieve internal power.

9 Step Push, to achieve centre of Power.

18 Magical Palms is the fiercest.

Chase empty, Grab / Strike full with fierceness.

Any variations you still achieve the same objective.

Master all these; learn Fierce Tiger comes out of Woods.

To achieve the height of enlightenment, 5 Elements of Earth’s forces.

Dave Stevens

[meltdawn]

I sincerely thank you Dave. I will study that well.

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

[Olaf]

Great, thanks for this post. Let's see if we can solve this puzzle.
Olaf

[mantis108]

This is by far the best Chinese New Year present. I am not talking about the poem itself although it is a big part of it. Rather, it is the sharing spirit. Dave's post is like to announce to the world that Bak Mei isn't some clandestine cult or a little boys club. We are a PAI - one that is ready if the pupil is willing to take the challenge. Sihing Dave, I applaud and salut you! You serve as a good example to us all, thank you.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[PotJunkie]

Forgive my ingorance but what does the terms gates/doors refer to?

[Pakmei]

Basically, in Chinese Gung Fu.
Your arms are known as "Kiu or Bridge"
Hands are "Sau meaning hand"
Wirsts, Elbows and Shoulders are known as "Doors or Gates between your bridge".

The rest of the couplet i'll let you decipher! This is a journey of the self. It gives you the chance to understand how Bak Mei was and has been passed down through the generations.

The more you practise; the more you'll understand this couplet and what it's telling you.

Dave Stevens

[meltdawn]

"10 Important Points of Pak Mei. "

"3 Doors / Gates, Ba Gwa Strength."

Gates. Always 3 through which power issues. Bat gua - 8 triagrams? Like from taiji, triagrams relate to hard/soft properties? Indicating the changing. Gates swing, they open AND close. If power can come out the gate, the gate can close to power. If one can open and close the 3 gates, strength is proven. External?

"4 Doors / Gates, Fast like Wind & Rain."

4? Possibly referring to stages of ging development? Wind and rain, powerful force but soft. Speed is not borne of strength. Internal?

"Tun To Foa Chum, takes hard work & training."

See TTFC thread! Cannot learn all from written word. One must teach the body and practice, practice, practice. Training means correct practice.

"6 Powers hold tight, then you achieve internal power."

Don’t know the names for 6, external powers? Close to mine I think. But meaning if external is correct, internal is achieved?

"9 Step Push, to achieve centre of Power."

Since it’s a form (I think?), the primary footwork relating to finding your center? 9 step shows as number from above, proves style’s particular balance? If studied will show you the root of all bak mei power generation principals?

"18 Magical Palms is the fiercest."

No clue, don’t study bak mei. Sounds like a ride at Disney World.

"Chase empty, Grab / Strike full with fierceness."

There is so much in this one! Don’t waste, in chase or strike. Execute with intent. Be soft and hard. Be strong and fast, because of knowledge and practice. Stick, shadow, follow (empty) 3 gates open (full)? USE what you have learned.

"Any variations you still achieve the same objective."

It’s all good!

"Master all these; learn Fierce Tiger comes out of Woods."

If you understand the external principals, you already know the form?

"To achieve the height of enlightenment, 5 Elements of Earth’s forces."

Esoteric reference to religios principals or bak mei power? If you master the form, you’ve got the internal, and have achieved enlightenment?


"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

[This message was edited by meltdawn on 02-01-01 at 07:32 AM.]

[Sam]

Does anyone know the Songs/Poems to Southern Praying Mantis Of Grandmaster Lam Sang See Line?

[MoQ]

I thought a couplet was a 2-liner?

All these little songs and poems are apparently not all that olde and each post CLC lineage has their own, so is this a Hakka thing??

[meltdawn]

Couplet, poem, song, yadda yadda yadd. Have to see it written in Chinese. Dave, though it's 10 points, is it written in couplet style?

MoQ, what you mean by "olde"? How you know other "post CLC" lineages each have their own? Give them to me! I demand more knowledge from those who have it!

Sifu! Sifuuuuuuu!!!!!!!

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi