Waist Usage

[Daredevil]

Heya,

I'm curious about waist usage in the various wing chun lineages.

I did Wing Tsun for a bit less than a year before starting with my current teacher, with whom I'm studying Baji and Chen style Taiji. Wing Tsun definately gave me an understanding of approaching arts via principles, something which is quite similar in internal arts. However, both Baji and Taiji have really elaborated on waist use for creating power.

So, I've been wondering about this. The waist, in our WT classes, was held stationary and the hands (elbows) did the movement. I'd like to hear your insights on this.

I am not looking to bash any style or to argue one way is better than the other. I have naturally, having done these styles, contemplated on the differences and even though I practise different styles now, I still value many things I learned in WT.

Thanks!

[vingtsunstudent]

in the wong shun leung method the waist is a critical factor & is used to devestating affect.
i can't speak for wing tsun, but will ask if you only learnt the first form?
the use of the waist becomes very apparent in the second form as well as in stepping & chi sao.
vts

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by vingtsunstudent
in the wong shun leung method the waist is a critical factor & is used to devestating affect. How so?

[JasBourne]

Jui Wan method uses waist power. I'm unclear on this: "The waist, in our WT classes, was held stationary and the hands (elbows) did the movement. " How do you hold your waist stationary and still fight effectively? :confused:

[fmann]

What grade in WT were you?

You should have started learning using the waist in Lat sao program 2, when you have to gan da a low punch, putting one's waist in to it gets maximal effect.

[vingtsunstudent]

hey whippy
i'm sure with your brilliance i don't need to answer that.
vts

[whippinghand]

I know how the hips are devastating. The question is, do you?

[vingtsunstudent]

well actually it is the whole waist not just the hips.
looks like your not as smart as you think:D
vts

[vt108]

"I know how the hips are devastating. "
Yes, hips are very good ......... in dancing. :)

Like vingtsunstudent said, the whole waist is used. People using only hips tend to go a little upwards with the hips.

[stuartm]

I study Ip Ching lineage and the turning stance (iu ma) and hip power is essential. I cant understand anyone who doesn'y make use of an essential joint in creating powere.

How can you perform a turning punch without the hip / waist?? How can you create Fa Jing without it ??

If youre not being taught how to use the waist then i would question why !

Best Wishes, Stuart

[S.Teebas]

If youre not being taught how to use the waist then i would question why !

Because there are other sources of power available. eg..the whole body

[stuartm]

Originally posted by S.Teebas


Because there are other sources of power available. eg..the whole body

Isn't the waist part of the whole body?? How can you not use the waist? Where does the pwoer in your kicks in particular come from?? How is it possible to isolate the waist from wider unified body movement??

Am I missing something guys............?

Regards, Stuart

[Daredevil]

I had learnt all of SNT, but not Chum Kiu. Maybe that's the source of my lack of understanding.

Lemme ask something a bit more specific. When punching, how do you use your hips/waist in your style?

Baji has quite a complex way of issuing power and the waist plays a big part in it. In Taiji, everything is initiated from the dantien. In WT, I had worked my centerline punches a lot, but waist/hip movement was minimal. It was more that my just elbows were driving my punched.

After starting Baji, I've only done a little practise on centerline punches, but I've also tried out of curiosity to add that twist of the waist that's now regular to my punching to WT type punching. I haven't worked enough on that to really know the results. I'd like to keep practising those, however, but I'm really curious about if I should add this component or not.

So,

Does the waist sort of initiate the punch? Or do the hands lead?

Is the waist movement minimal or more pronounced? Is it more of just an opening of the kua (the hip joint)?

Does the spine sort of act as an axis around which you twist and punch?

I understand there maybe a variety of different answers from different Wing Chun lineages and I fully except that and hope we can remain a-politic yet.

Thanks for the answers so far!

[Ish]

Does the waist sort of initiate the punch? Or do the hands lead?

i would say that everything should start at the same time.


Is the waist movement minimal or more pronounced? Is it more of just an opening of the kua (the hip joint)?

I started off by moving my waist quite a lot but i think you should reduce the amount you turn the better you get


Does the spine sort of act as an axis around which you twist and punch?

i dont think the spine shoud act like an axis as when you turn your spine move

[Daredevil]

Oh, and a few points about my understanding of the art. I was just a grade 2 beginner, so don't bash please. :)

I never worked a direct connection between turning and punching. I understood turning, which of course uses the waist/hips, was done to avoid using force on force.

And sure, kicks definately require using the waist to a certain point, I'm talking about punching.

And as for holding your waist stationary and still fighting .. well, we kept our hips squared on the opponents, except when turning, but even after a turn we'd return to being square on to deliver most of the attacks. Of course, it wasn't a matter of being rigid and rooted to just one spot, refusing to move your waist. :)

Okay, just thought I'd answer some of your queries and thoughts to give you a view of my perspective.

[reneritchie]

Hi,

Wing Chun Kuen, in my understanding, used both unlinked (localized limb/part) and linked (whole body) power. The latter functions off the harmony of ma (horse), yiu (waist), sao (arm/hand).

It might be easier to see in the side turning punch (pien, juen, chor, etc.) or in Chum Kiu than in the front punch or Siu Lien/Nim Tao, but over time, with training, you should feel it there for you as needed.

Rgds,

RR

[JasBourne]

I had learnt all of SNT, but not Chum Kiu

Ah, ok, now it makes sense. You weren't learning fighting yet.



I never worked a direct connection between turning and punching.

Consider the distance between yourself and your opponent. If you turn as you punch, you shave off about 3 inches. Now consider the power generated by simply throwing your fist straight out from your body - you have the weight of the fist itself, coupled with the strength and speed generated by your arm and shoulder muscles pushing out. Ok but not impressive.

Now, think about how a bullwhip works - if you have a 10 foot whip, and you hold it 3 feet from the tip, when you lash it out the tip might sting, but nowhere near as much as if you hold the whip by the handle, 10 feet from the tip, and crack it.

The same exact set of physics principles that enables you to slice through a melon by touching it with a thin piece of leather (watch someone crack a whip on a watermelon *kapow!*) is what enables you to properly align your body and move it so that you slam someone on their @ss by what looks like you tapping their chest (watch someone do a proper 1-inch punch).

Its all physics, man, no magic in wing chun, just science :D

[dzu]

1) There is a difference between using the waist and using the pelvis. Both use different body mechanics and different methods to generate and absorb force.

2) Whatever method you use, the body mechanics work as a two way street. Force should be able to be rooted or brought up from the ground.

3) Sometimes it's better to use the body and hands together, and sometimes it better to just use the hands alone. WC has both options.

4) SNT/SLT trains the body from a stationary position. If you cannot generate sufficient power just by standing and punching, you won't be able to efficiently do it while moving, turning, or shifting. You'll only be using movement to cover up deficiencies in your own training.

5) Stationary does not equal static.

Dzu

[Daredevil]

"Consider the distance between yourself and your opponent. If you turn as you punch, you shave off about 3 inches. Now consider the power generated by simply throwing your fist straight out from your body - you have the weight of the fist itself, coupled with the strength and speed generated by your arm and shoulder muscles pushing out. Ok but not impressive."

(nod) 'xactly and how we started doing things immediately in Baji. I was, after having done it now in Baji, amazed at the lack of it in my WT. So, it was just a case of me not being advanced enough in it, as I expected. Now, I'm really curious about the exact mechanics of it, but I guess a forum will prove a bit too inadequate for total communication of those.

It's a matter of me trying to connect what understanding I gained from my WT practise to what I'm learning now. Of course, it may not all be compatible, but I'm just contemplating, okay? :)

"SNT/SLT trains the body from a stationary position. If you cannot generate sufficient power just by standing and punching, you won't be able to efficiently do it while moving, turning, or shifting. You'll only be using movement to cover up deficiencies in your own training."

Good point.

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by Daredevil
I was, after having done it now in Baji, amazed at the lack of it in my WT. So, it was just a case of me not being advanced enough in it, as I expected.
Best not to judge the system based on deficient lineages.

[Nichiren]

I would never dream of turning my waist when punching or elbowing against a skilled sihing when I am in front of him. I get to vulnerable to counter attacks. I will give away my balance.

But if you are skilled enough, or your opponent aren't, maybe you could get away with it or if you already have unbalanced your opponent.

My example doesn't apply if you are in trouble, e.g. lost your centre. Then the turning techniques from e.g. Chum Kiu can be a life saver.

Of course this is my opinion...

[whippinghand]

Training so that you can "get away with it" or "get by" is not the best approach to training.

If you are vulnerable when you punch with a turn, perhaps a re-evaluation of how you're doing it is in order.

If a technique makes you vulnerable when executing it, you are simply doing it wrong.

[Matrix]

I would be willing to bet that the same skilled sihing could take your balance whether you shift or not. You should not be giving away your balance when you turn your waist, as WH as said, there's something wrong here. So discuss this with your sifu.

In order to get where you want to go, you have to leave your comfort zone. Push the envelope in order to expand your skills. You may have to show your weakness to develop your strength.
;)


Matrix

[Nichiren]

Matrix and WH: Maybe you guys are correct. When I started WC I came from boxing/thai and got my ass whipped when I used boxing type of punches. I have tried hard not to fall back in old boxing habits. Maybe this have affected my WC.

Cheers....

[hunt1]

Using the waist to transmit power does not involve turning the waist away from the intended target.Waist usage should have no negative effect on your balance if you are using your waist correctly.

[Girl Power]

Using the waist does not mean turning in the sense that most people understand. That is the feet don't necessarily turn and you are not shifting the angle.

As I understand it, the waist is used in subtle manners to launch or support hand and leg techniques.

Development of waist power involves concentration on that part of the body with less emphasis on using hand actions. Later you can incorporate these skills in your chi sao.

I have met many people professing to use the waist but most did not. The one chap I did find who could both use and explain it was this nerdish thin weak guy. He explained that his body was so weak that his arms alone could offer any power. His waist was used to support and launch his attacks which resulted in more power crisper techniques and even more stamina since he was not relying on arm and chest muscles.


GP

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Nichiren
When I started WC I came from boxing/thai and got my ass whipped when I used boxing type of punches. I have tried hard not to fall back in old boxing habits. Maybe this have affected my WC.Nichiren,

I too have studied several other arts before Wing Chun, and had a tough time ridding myself of what I would call "bad habits" from a Wing Chun point of view. The one thing I have realized, over time, is to check my ego at the door when I train. You often learn much more from your failures than from your successes. Just relax and let it happen, that's what training is all about. Absorb all you can, and be willing to have the senior students guide you. Sometimes that may mean pointing out some weakness or flaw. So what!! If you were perfect, you wouldn't need to train, besides it's better to discover these things in training than on the street. ;)

Regards,
Matrix

[Nichiren]

Using the waist does not mean turning in the sense that most people understand. That is the feet don't necessarily turn and you are not shifting the angle.

Ok guys, I think I missunderstood the topic. I thought you meant that you were turning your waist, i.e. shifting your angle to e.g. 45 degrees when the punch connects. I have no problem starting a punch using the waist to launch it but I wouldn't like to stand in an angle to my opponent when it connects.

Cheers...