Yang Ban Ho Pao Chui form

[Sho Pi]

Has anyone heard of this form or currently practice it? I came across a couple of video clips and was very interested in seeing more.

Thanks for any help you can give.

Sho Pi

[RAF]

Did you see it in the ROAM ABOUT THE TAIJI WORLD?

Doesn't look like the typical Yang styles and also has a lot of fajing expression.

Did you the first set of the Yang Ban Hou form?

Someone argued that this mirror the Chen's 1st and 2nd routine and might be the original Chen/Yang Form.

A more cynical view, well, I won't go there because I really kind of like the form.

[taijiquan_student]

As far as I know, Pao Chui refers to Chen Family forms, not Yang.

[RAF]

Borrow, beg or steal for a copy. Its interesting and I know that many of the lineage holders in the Yang Cheng Fu tradition practice single moving fajing postures from the form.

In 1984, I started learning the Yang style of taijiquan from a fellow by the name of Tom Phillips in Lexington Kentucky. He had a lot longfist while in New Jersy and took a class from Jou Tsung Hwa who was teaching at Rutgers University. Tom gave up evertything and stayed with Jou to learn his Yang long form, sword, push hands, qi gong, Chen etc..

When Tom taught us at the 4 Season, he had us utilizing fajing single moving from the form.

Years later in the Living Treasure Series, I saw Fu Sheng Yuan, son of Fu Zhong Wen, doing the same single movements with fajing. From that point on I realized that much of the Yang Cheng Fu style had hidden its fighting and conditioning training and those that claim the system is only for health, had only partially learned the system.

I really don't know if the Yang Ban Hou system is legitimate or made up. If it isn't, then it gets as close to the original yang Lu Chan form as is possible.

Funny how you never hear about anyone teaching it or researching it.

[Sho Pi]

I think it was in the ROAM ABOUT THE TAIJI WORLD video. It was a short clip seen through the trees.

It did resemble some of the Chen movements yet was very distinctly different. I have noticed a lack of research in this area. I have always wondered about Yang Ban Ho and what he taught. There are some stories that he as very good but was hard on students so never really had his style develop. I know that there were several different sets of forms like the Chen system has. One of these is an older version of the current popular form. However, the Cannon fist form and another called lifting legs is also out there.

I would like to know about these other forms. I know that Earl claims to have the original Lu Chan form but this Ban Ho form seemed different from that. It was very different from the Dong Family fast form as well.

It would make sense that the Yang system would have different sets like the Chen system it was modeled after.

Any information is appreciated. I would love to really find some good evidence and research on this. Even if it means I need to do it myself.

Thanks

Jeff

[Leonidas]

Is this the same as the Yang Michuan taught here in New York. It was taught by Yang Jianhou(I think thats another spelling of Yang Pan Hou) to Zhang Qiling as a secret transmission who taught it to Wang Yen-nien who now teaches it. He was obviously not happy with what his brother was teaching but students complained that his training was too difficult so his style never really developed. I'm not sure what the names of the forms are or even if theres a Pao Chui form but i think this is what your talking about . He wanted to change his fathers form as little as possible so of course it looks alot like Chen and Old Yang. You can find more info if you type in -Yang Michuan- and search for the site. I hope that helped

[Sam Wiley]

Leonidas,
Ban-hou and Chien-hou were brothers, both were sone of Yang Lu-chan. Yang Chien-hou was the father of Yang Shao-hou and Yang Cheng-fu.

The "Pauchui" form Erle teaches is a solo set in two parts comprosed of more explosive than slow movements. If two people know this form, then one can take the first half and the other can take the second half, and they can use them as a two-man fighting set. The two-man set is called "Large San Shou." There is also a "Small San Shou" set, which teaches the applications for the movements from the opening move through Single Whip in the long form, complete with follow-up or "mother" applications for finishing the opponent off. There are also a great many short forms/training methods which take the student into advanced areas of the art and bridge the gap between martial/fighting art and self-defense system. Ten of them are given to introduce the student to this new kind of fighting, and the other 12 are given once he has gotten a grasp on them. The 10 are fairly simple and straightforward, and the 12 are more complex and delve into deeper areas themselves.

[taijiquan_student]

As far as I know Jian-hou transmitted the michuan form, not Ban-hou.
I know that Ban-hou is not in the michuan lineage line, but what I don't know is whether or not he learned the michuan in the first place.

[Sho Pi]

This is very interesting. So could there have been a split in the Yang form with Lu Chan's sons?

Let's see if I don't muddy the waters more than they already are. :rolleyes:

The michuan form came from Chien-hou and this is the "inside" stuff of the Yang family. Cheng Fu possibly created an "outside" system to export to the world. This would be the system that most people practice. However, he probably kept the michuan form alive inside as well.

However, I am a little confused Sam, about where Erle's Pauchui form comes from. It sounds like it might be the Ban Hou form I was looking for. However, I already know a two person set that is in the Yang Lineage that does not look like the video clip I saw.

We know that Ban Hou taught students just not that many. Is his style considerably different than Cheng Fu's? Could this still be taught? Sam do you know of any of the other Old Yang Forms still bieng actively taught and learned?

Thanks for the good discussions everyone.

Sho Pi

[Sam Wiley]

It's possible that there were several "splits" within the Yang family, and that different forms were handed down as a result. Supposedly, Erle's Pauchui form came down through the Yang Shao-hou line, which I have always taken to mean that it came down from Yang Chien-hou, though Shao-hou could have also learned from Ban-hou. There is supposedly a variation of the form Erle teaches that was passed down through the Cheng-fu line, that almost the same form but a lot less martial.

I have seen very little of other forms that call themselves the "Old Yang style." Certainly not enough to make a decision on whether it is or is not the real Old Yang style. However, I once asked Erle about some of these other forms, and he remarked that all the ones he had seen were variations of Yang Cheng-fu's form. I had asked him specifically about a video tape offered in an add in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts (excellent 'zine, by the way). He said he had seen that form and it was not the same. However, these questions were related only to the long form and nothing else.

Do you download files from Morpheus? If so, I could probably put a WMV file of myself performing the form in my shared folder so you could see the whole form and have it for future reference in your search. My form's by no means perfect, but it should be enough to go on when comparing.

[taijiquan_student]

Hi Sam.

"all the ones he had seen were variations of Yang Cheng-fu's form."

One thing I can DEFINITELY tell you is that the michuan system is NOT a variation on the chengfu stlye. While it still sticks to the principles in the classics, it has different mechanics than probably all the Yang style most people have seen, in the sense that the michuan is primarily back-legged, while chengfu's yang style usually ends movements in a bow-stance or front-leg root (not all the time, but primarily), and has moves where it looks like you are bending backwards (and forwards for one or two) a little but really you are still internally connected and rooted. It's one of those things you have to see to understand, I think.

"Supposedly, Erle's Pauchui form came down through the Yang Shao-hou line, which I have always taken to mean that it came down from Yang Chien-hou, though Shao-hou could have also learned from Ban-hou."

My take--What I recall is that Shao-Hou was basically adopted by Ban-Hou. This is one possible reason why Shao-Hou inherited Ban-Hou's "demeanor", and now that you bring this up, one reason why Shao-Hou's form is different from Jian-Hou's.

The interesting thing about michuan is that it was only handed down to one student (disciple) each generation. It went from Lu-Chan, to Jian-Hou, to Zhang Qin Lin (he was a student of Chengfu, but then became a disciple of Jian-Hou), to Wang Yen Nian, then to my teacher. Re-reading this paragraph, I'm not sure how it's relevant to the topic, but I'll leave it in anyway.

[Sho Pi]

Sam,

Thanks for the offer. I reformatted my hardrive and have not put that back on there. I will do that and then let you know. I would be very interested to see the form.

taich_student,

"My take--What I recall is that Shao-Hou was basically adopted by Ban-Hou. This is one possible reason why Shao-Hou inherited Ban-Hou's "demeanor", and now that you bring this up, one reason why Shao-Hou's form is different from Jian-Hou's."

I have heard the same thing. I don't know how true it is but it is a perception. I would make sense that Shao-Hou would have at least taken some lessons form Ban-Hou.


Sho Pi

[Sho Pi]

Sam,

I set up the morpheus program. Can you let me know what i should be searching under?

Thanks

Sho Pi

[Sam Wiley]

Sho Pi,

Check your private messages. I sent the file name to you that way.:)

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

the guang Ping form of taiji that is popular in san francisco by Kou Lin ying is to be from the Pan hao lineage. there are several books that show this form. one is called wave hand like clouds by a student of Kou named li po. the form looks like a low version of wu jian quans and yang lu chans form combined.

[Sho Pi]

Originally posted by Ma_Xu_Zha
the guang Ping form of taiji that is popular in san francisco by Kou Lin ying is to be from the Pan hao lineage. there are several books that show this form. one is called wave hand like clouds by a student of Kou named li po. the form looks like a low version of wu jian quans and yang lu chans form combined.

Thanks for the info. I looked for the book at Barnes and Nobel.com and it is currently out of print. They did point me to a rare book dealer that is selling it for $40-65.00 a piece.

I guess I will have to save my coffee money for a while to take a look at it.

Do you happen to know any other books or videos that show the form?

Thanks

Sho Pi

[churn-ging]

Hey Shou Pi,

Go to the link below. If you scroll down the page, you'll find two books that have the guang ping tai chi form in them. One is by Kuo Lien Ying's wife. Her name is Simmone Kuo and the books title is "Long Life Good Health Through Tai Chi Chuan."

The other book is written by Kuo Lien Ying himself and it also contains the form. It actually has pictures of Kuo doing the form himself. This books title is "Tai Chi Chuan in Theory and Practice."

If you are looking for a book that teaches the form, I would go with his wifes book because it has step by step instructions on the form. Also, she is a tai chi chuan teacher at San Fancisco State University, and she uses that book as a text book for all her students.

But if you are more into the theory, then I would go for her husbands book because it has more theory in it. Also, the pictures in there just show you the final positions, doesn't explain to the reader how to transition from position to position.


http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/results.asp?WRD=tai+chi+chuan&userid=16R5FC982K (http://)

Hope this helps.

ps:There's also another book written by Kuo too. I think the name of it is called "Tai Chi Boxing Chronicles." It has a lot of good theory in there and also talks a lot about the soft internal side of tai chi.