One more punching thread

[IronFist]

Alright, what's a good number of punches to perform daily for a beginner. Number of air punches and number of punches on a wall bag. What were you taught to do when you first started?

Please no cryptic answers this time, only straightforward number answers will be accepted.

IronFist

[whippinghand]

Forget wallbag, resort to air only.

[vingtsunstudent]

i agree with whippy.
build up to about 1000 in the air.
unfortunately without a teacher things like wallbag training could really be bad for what little you might pick up whilst trying to learn even from books or video.
i can see so many problems you are going to face learning this way, however i must give you credit for trying as you must have a strong passion for the art.
vts

[sanchezero]

just to add to the previous posts...

Don't rush to get to a particular number. Make sure you stop before you get sloppy. Sometimes its cool to bust out a marathon, but as a beginner doing these every day you need to be concerned about quality not quantity.

Occasionally, I like to bang on a heavy bag just to get a feel for unloading and check my alignment. I'm not a big fan of punching sh!t that doesn't move.

[Ish]

i usualy do a nice 550 set. start off with single punches do 10 then do 10 with 2 punchs then with 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10. If your not sore switch hands and go back down again

[edward]

wall bag punching is for conditioning the hand...

as for air punching... you can do 1000 but if you do it wrong, then its a waste of time, you could do 20 and perform it correctly and it'll be worht your while..

thus, there's really no set number of how many you should do...

the key to remember, the more you do the punching, but do it correctly, the better you get....

[S.Teebas]

You should practice at least 10,000 punches per day.

[Sharky]

lol

[Sharky]

but dude, i agree with whippy and vtstudent - you need to practice in the air first.

the problem is, you need someone there to tell you when you're ready to go onto the wallbag, and then correct you when you're on it - you WILL be hitting it wrong.

look for a teacher man. maybe even consider a different style. you're so into lifting etc then you want to take up wing chun wtf? :)

[stuartm]

Hi all,

Sharky and Ish are right.

In addition I would just add the following. Having opened my club last week I was trying to taech people the basic jic kuen. They were all beginners and so I hope what i am telling you will be useful.

1. Make sure you have the correct fist shape. ie sun character fist angled slightly inwards to ensure connection with the bottom 3 knuckles

2. Ensuer that the chain motion is maintained when punching ie as the extended arm returns the rear fist punches over the top.

3. Make sure elbows are in.

4. Correct height of punch.

5. Dont lock out and dont be concerened with power - relaxation and structure are most important when learning to punch.

6. Sink your weight properly (lok ma) and ensure your hips are pressed forward so you are punching from the ground with good structure.

I intend to teach these basics for a month or two before introduce concepts of power, fa ging and the sandbag.

I would add though that the sandbag's primary role is not for conditioning - this is just an added bonus. The bag teaches you to punch with structure. If your stance is out, elbow position incorrect youwill not be able to deliver a good short range punch. The bag also teaches you to penetrate with your punch - to punch 'through' the bag.

Just my opinion though.

Best ...................Stuart

[vt108]

"wall bag punching is for conditioning the hand... "
You really belevie in it?

"The bag teaches you to punch with structure. If your stance is out, elbow position incorrect youwill not be able to deliver a good short range punch. The bag also teaches you to penetrate with your punch - to punch 'through' the bag. "
I agree. But I would say also that the primary reason for punching the wall bag is to train your waist.

[Ish]

when you say its for training the waist do you mean generating power from your waist or something else?

[vt108]

One of the most important aspects of working of the waist is that it has to be able accept the force which comes into you not only generating power for your movements. Remember when you block a hook punch for example your tan sao will work efficiently only if you have o very good waist ie. when it can accept comming force. The same with a punch. There is a lot of returning force which has to go to the ground but through the waist. If your waist is not strong enough you will loose your balance.
Training on the wall bag helps you to learn your waist to accept as much force as it can. If your own punch to the wall bag makes your waist unstable how can you punch or block your opponent without loosing any balance? You just can't.
People will write that structure is the most important. Yes it is important but waist is, in my opinion, the most important part of the structure. Without the waist there is no WC.

[reneritchie]

There are several ways to check your structural alignment that are probably better to do *before* you hit a wall bag, since that can hide as much as reveal, and what you do when you hit a flexible surface (like sand bag or soft body area) is another topic altogether.

Punching in the air is good, though I believe (and think research shows) that more is not always better. Do it as long as your form is good, then stop and go back to it later if you want. Make sure your horse is aligned, your shoulders stay straight (a mirror helps with this), your elbow stays in and down. I would recommend against *any* upward bend in the wrist (unless you've already hit the target and want to manipulate it). Don't worry about hitting with the pinky (you can sheer that way and do damage to your hand), but align so that the elbow is behind the middle two knuckles. (And your body should be behind the elbow).

Rgds,

RR

[Highlander]

This is how I train my air punches at home. I use a mirror, metronome, and a timer. The mirror is to check structure. The metronome is to check the pace. And the timer replaces having to count. I find that counting splits my focus and I would rather focus on the punch.

Routine:

1) 2 minutes, 40 punches per minute

2) 2 minutes, 80 punches per minute

3) 2 minutes, 120 punches per minute

4) 2 minutes, 40 punches per minute

And occationally I will put a step in between 3 and 4 for a complete burn out. 1 minute 180 punches per minute, but the form really suffers in that one.

Of course you could set the routine for yourself, but the biggest thing for me is forcing myself to go slow and with proper structure. That is what I feel is the most important part.

[CanadianBadAss]

When a VT guy punchs some ones head his arm shouldn't become flexed on impact, if it does, I think it means that some of the force is bouncing back into his arm. If you practice on a wall bag, the force will alway be coming back into your arm, and you'll start to develop bad habbits. So I think wall bags or a punching bags should only be used to test yourself every once in a while, all the real practicing should be done in the air.

[vingtsunstudent]

vt108
would you mind telling where & with whom you train.
you can contact me via e-mail if you don't want to write it here.
i also understand what you saying about the waist but maybe it might be better to describe it here as the the whole stance.
if i rember from another post you have heard of barry, have you by chance seen his wall bag article over a dozen pages on basic wall bag alone.
vts

[dzu]

Hitting the wallbag is good BECAUSE it gives you force feedback. It tells you where you are misaligned. If the force stays inside of you due to tension, then you are doing something wrong. The force should go into the ground and not affect your structure.

Regarding the waist issue: as mentioned in another thread, the pelvis and waist are two different entities (depending upon your definition). The word 'strong' is always vague to me when describing MA. Strong in what sense and context? Muscular strength? Good alignment? Strong lumbar region? Active use of the waist?

Dzu

[vt108]

"have you by chance seen his wall bag article over a dozen pages on basic wall bag alone."

Yes I have. What is your e-mail address?

[vt108]

"i also understand what you saying about the waist but maybe it might be better to describe it here as the the whole stance."

What do you mean?

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by stuartm
1. Make sure you have the correct fist shape. ie sun character fist angled slightly inwards to ensure connection with the bottom 3 knuckles Connection of what with the bottom 3 knuckles?


2. Ensuer that the chain motion is maintained when punching ie as the extended arm returns the rear fist punches over the top.Punching over top? That's more like a bicycle, not a chain.

3. Make sure elbows are in. How far in?


4. Correct height of punch. How high?


5. Dont lock out and dont be concerened with power - relaxation and structure are most important when learning to punch. How does one relax? How does one keep a structure?


6. Sink your weight properly (lok ma) and ensure your hips are pressed forward so you are punching from the ground with good structure.How does having my hips pressed forward enable me to punch from the ground?


The bag also teaches you to penetrate with your punch - to punch 'through' the bag. If I intend to punch a person, should my intention be to punch through the body?

[vt108]

"When I punch, should my intention be to punch through the person?"
Yes, you should punch trough the target. But training of punching in the air and punching on the wall bag should make this automatic. When you contact with the target you should make your fist tight and go through it as much as you can. But remember only when you have contact with the target. Making it all the time can put you in a bad situation especially when you miss the target. That's why I said that you should make your fist tight on contact with the target.

[S.Teebas]

If I intend to punch a person, should my intention be to punch through the body?

Intent should be focused inside it.

[burnsypoo]

I would say that your distancing should take care of where your punch's "focus" is. All you need to do is let the fist fly. If you tell yourself that you're punching through your target, there's the possibility that you're training to shove.

-BP-

[reneritchie]

My 2c...

> Connection of what with the bottom 3 knuckles?

I don't believe in including the bottom (pinky) knuckle unless it naturally falls in there for the basic punch. IMHO, the wrist should be straight with the middle two knuckles aligned with the elbow at the moment of impact.

> Punching over top? That's more like a bicycle, not a chain.

Agreed. neutral/straight position is best for practice.

> How far in?

Two schools of thought on that. The way I learned, the elbow should ideally be behind the fist on the meridian line (center line), producing an arrow-like effect. Some others align the elbow on the mid-clavicular line producing more of a wedge structure.

> How high?

Neutral position for practice at shoulder height.

> How does one relax? How does one keep a structure?

I'd do some punches slow and relaxed, then try to speed up and keep the same relaxation, then speed up and faat ging with the same relaxation. Build progressively step by step. Relaxation takes time to develop and you have to invest in loss (give up brute force), go slow, and conciously try to involve as little muscle as possible.

>How does having my hips pressed forward enable me to punch from the ground?

IMHO you don't punch from the ground. That's a fairly dead punch (the power has already been generated and thus is not as adaptive). I learned with the anology of a hammer and nail. You touch the opponent to 'set' the nail, then hit it with your body to hammer it in. Semantically, that's punching with the ground, but it makes a difference, IMHO, in quality of the punch and ability to change en route if needed. Some place the hips under, some press them forward (though this can have an opposite effect by making weaker structure) and some press all 3 dan tien forward. Depends if you can make your alignment work or not.

> If I intend to punch a person, should my intention be to punch through the body?

Only if you want to push them. Otherwise, punch into them.

Rgds,

RR

[diego]

Some place the hips under, some press them forward (though this can have an opposite effect by making weaker structure) and some press all 3 dan tien forward. Depends if you can make your alignment work or not.

Is thier any other ways of bridging your power, besides the 3 mentioned.
would you elaborate on these, What stances are we talking about, is this only good for wingchun, do these funneling of power occur in the spinning stealstep/cross stance longfist strikes, of styles like hungga,clf,lama...

also could you give me a brief discription, how differant wingchun uses these three actions in a Sun fist strike, from wingchuns stances and footsteps.

[vingtsunstudent]

vt108
VINGTSUNSTUDENT@bigpond.com or you can go through my profile.
regarding saying stance over waist i think a lot of people here might not emphasis the waist as much as we do, so to them stance maybe easier to understand.
besides punching the wall bag does test your stance of which the waist is odviously a huge part.
anyways it would be good to here from you.
vts

[IronFist]

**** I'm late with the reply...


look for a teacher man. maybe even consider a different style.

I only know of one WC teacher by me, but he's in Chinatown and it's too inconvenient for me to be going there, especially while I'm at school. As for different styles, I've studied at Isshinryu and Hapkido schools before, but they weren't what I was looking for really. Alright, so here, all we have at my Uni is shotokan and tkd. No thanks. So for now I'll stick to videos and kfo :)


you're so into lifting etc then you want to take up wing chun wtf?

Oops, sorry, I forgot that you can't mix lifting and MA. My bad :D

Iron

[Sihing73]

quote:
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you're so into lifting etc then you want to take up wing chun wtf?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Oops, sorry, I forgot that you can't mix lifting and MA. My bad :D

Iron

I guess no one told this to Sifu Keith Kernsprecht :D He is both powerful and soft. Having been on the receiving end of some of his techniques I can assure you that weight training has in no way hampered his WT. There are several who do both I guess the key is in having a firm idea of what you are trying to accomplish and balancing the two. It can be done but takes more time and effort. On the other hand my Sihing in Germany used to always tell us that the best way to train Wing Tsun was to practice Wing Tsun.

Peace,

Dave

[vt108]

"regarding saying stance over waist i think a lot of people here might not emphasis the waist as much as we do, so to them stance maybe easier to understand.
besides punching the wall bag does test your stance of which the waist is odviously a huge part. "

You are right.

[Sharky]

You're young, and into strength training, and you want to learn a style that uses minimal muscle power (in general)?

If you box or consider a more external style (than wing chun) then you will see great advantages you have over other stylists/students that do not. You won't find this in wing chun. I just thought seeing as you're young, may want to consider a style that you a) Would have an advantage with and b) That you could actually get proper lessons for.

Silly me.

[IronFist]

Dude don't take offence :) I'm just saying I don't think anyone should have to choose weightlifting OR kungfu.

Thanks to all who responded. Beware my next questions :)

Iron

[whippinghand]

What's mine say...? Sweet!

[popsider]

Originally posted by vingtsunstudent
vt108
if i rember from another post you have heard of barry, have you by chance seen his wall bag article over a dozen pages on basic wall bag alone.
vts

I'd like to see that - or any other article he's written (I've seen a couple somewhere on the internet). Assuming it's meant for public consumption is there anywhere I could get a copy of it mate ?

I know he did have a web site at some time but it never got completed did it ?

[vingtsunstudent]

sorry popsider
i hope that one day all his stuff will be available freely on the web to read but at present unfortunately not.
here is a little bit about him, unfortunately it is in german
http://home.t-online.de/home/kai.hafner/Index.html
vts