Cantonese or Mandarin?

[PHILBERT]

the word Wing Chun, is that Cantonese or Mandarin? If it is one of them, then how is it spelled in the other language? Thanks.

[David Peterson]

The pronunciation represented by the phonetic spelling "Wing Chun" is Cantonese. Not only are there variations of romanisation systems for Cantonese (eg: Sydney Lau or Hepburn systems), but for a variety of either personal preferences or commercial reasons, other spellings as well (eg: Ving Tsun, Wing Tsun, etc.), so there is quite a lot of confusion possible, and this is also complicated by the fact that there are variations in the actual characters used for the system as well. Even the translation of the name is often quite varied (eg: serenade springtime, forever springtime, and so on). If you were to spell the name in the Mandarin dialect, using the widely accepted Pinyin romanisation method, it would be written "Yong Chun", though once again, due to variations on the spelling systems, you might also render it as "Yung Ch'un" or "Yung Chun". Hopefully this doesn't add to your confusion :)

[PHILBERT]

So basically when someone says "I practice Wing Chun Kung Fu." they are saying they practice a Chinese martial art combining Cantonese and Mandarin (Kung Fu being Mandarin, Gung Fu being Cantonese, so I read). So to make it more um...nerdy showing off your vast knowledge, you should say "I practice Wing Chun Gung Fu." or "I practice Yung Ch'un Kung Fu." so you don't use several different languages (after all you are using English in there too).

[burnsypoo]

not to mention that by putting "I practice" infront of it, that you're adding another language anyways.

but then again, who cares.

-BP-

[sunkuen]

good eyes BP!

[PHILBERT]

(after all you are using English in there too).

I did already state that.

`Sides, I just wanted to know if Wing Chun was Cantonese. Someone might actually ask you that question some day to see how much you truly know about the art.

[David Peterson]

Actually, the idea that "Kung-fu" is Mandarin and "Gung-fu" is Cantonese is a myth the arose because of the variations that exist in the romanisation systems for Chinese. In fact, and to simplify the explanation, the old method of "spelling" Chinese that was popular for over a century, the Wade-Giles system, often only distinguished between sounds by the addition or omission of an apostrophe (thus "T'ai Chi" for "taiji", "Mao Tse-tung" for "Mao Zedong", "Peiching" for "Beijing", "Pakua Chang" for "Bagua Zhang" and so), hence "K" represented a "G" sound, while "K'" represented a "K" sound. Thus, "Kung-fu" and "Gung-fu" are actually pronounced exactly the same way, which is with a "G" sound as the initial sound. In the Pinyin method for spelling Mandarin Chinese, it is rendered "gongfu", and is virtually identical in sound with its Cantonese counterpart. The only way to overcome this "problem" is by reading directly from the characters, but of course not everyone can do so. :)

[black and blue]

Stop this thread this very minute. Anyone posting after my post will be shot.

TOO CONFUSING!

When someone asks me what MA I study... my eyes are going to glaze over and dribble will fall from my mouth. :)

Let us all agree here and now. We all study... Hmmm.... "Wig Wam".

This should be the common definition we all use from now on:cool:

[Alpha Dog]

Don't forget the fist!!!

[Mr Punch]

So, I guess if black and blue were saying it the 'fist' would change to 'fit'... hmm, 'wig wam fit' TM... I shall set up my own web page and advertise for members immediately!

Where does the poem about the remembering the Han dynasty fit into the history, the variation between the two different characters for 'wing'/'weng', and Yim Wing Chun's name itself?

[reneritchie]

AD- Nice to see Wade Giles still around. Not sure how Pin Yin expects people to see Quan and Ch'uan. ;)

Matt - The poem is from the Pao Fa Lien system of the late Chu Chong in HK and Kwok Gai in Foshan. I believe it goes - "Always (Weng/Yong) speak (Yan/Yin) with determination, never forget the Han nation, again will return spring (Chun/Chun)". The first two characters combine to form Wing/Yong (to chant), while the last is Chun (spring), hence shortened to "Wing Chun".

This does not relate to the name Yim Wing-Chun as Pao Fa Lien doesn't make mention of a Yim Wing-Chun in their creation myth (instead, a Shaolin monk named Dai Dong Fung (Dai Dong Feng, Great East Wing).

Rgds,

RR

[Alpha Dog]

I feel free to mix n' match!! Anyway, none of it is Chinese, or even Cantonese!!

Wo xie jie yang, ni kan de dong ma? Maybe, but there is no meaning in it, just sounds. Xiang Yin Wen Yi Yang Lan Ba!

This board should be facilitated with Chinese characters!

[reneritchie]

Dui Le!

RR

[Phil Redmond]

You wrote:
"Actually, the idea that "Kung-fu" is Mandarin and "Gung-fu" is Cantonese is a myth the arose because of the variations that exist in the romanisation systems for Chinese".

I take issue with your statement because there are people on this forum who are trying to learn the truth and should not be lead astray.

I speak Cantonese. KUNG FU IS MANDARIN. GUNG FU IS CANTONESE, period. The difference has nothing to do with romanization. There is a distinct difference in pronounciation. I studied the Yale University Romanization for three (3) years in University. The Yale romanization is used by the U.S. Foreign Service Department. Also, I'm from NYC which has a LARGE Cantonese speaking Chinatown. I had, and still have the opportunity to use my Cantonese/Toishan on a daily basis here in Detroit, and Toronto. If I were you, I'd refrain from making blanket statements with little or no foundation. You could mislead poeple. You live in Australia. There are plenty of Chinese there. Talk to some of them...please.
P Redmond
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com

[Phil Redmond]

One more thing. Did you know that Hong Kong Cantonese has some differences from the Cantonese spoken in 'Canton' proper?
For instance, 'neui' is the Canton (city) pronounciation for girl. In Hong Kong some people say,"leui'. Oftentimes the 'L' sound is used in place if the 'N' in Hong Kong. I'm not trying to cut you down. It's just that Language is my gift and love. (Spanish, Greek, Arabic, Cantonese, Toishan).
Now I'm studying Hebrew and Mandarin. And I speak a little English too.
Phil

[Alpha Dog]

Giu di dim sum sik ma? Haa gao, siew mai, cha siew bao? Gno dou yiew, m goi!!

Siew jie, lei ho leng, ho tim!

-- Practical Cantonese, by Alpha Dog

[dezhen2001]

Alpha - u crack me up man :D

a practical way to get slapped by any number of Leng Lui, and order great food :D

david

[Phil Redmond]

Giu di dim sum sik ma? Haa gao, siew mai, cha siew bao? Gno dou yiew, m goi!!

Siew jie, lei ho leng, ho tim!

Hi Alpha, not bad but you know that Cantonese has at least 7 tones. For instance, when you wrote, sik ma. You should have written ,sihk. Which is a lower tone. An 'H" lets reader of the Roman alphabet know that the word is pronounced in one of the lower tones. Anyway, I do love to eat Dim Sum. And I love the shrimp buns. I don't eat Chow siu bao though. They have Jyu yuk,(pork). M'sai haak hei. And who are you calling pretty Miss??????
LOL. I'm in Ontario right now, Thurs. 3-21-02. I'll be here until Tues. 3-26-02. Where are you?
Phil
P.S. you should say, Nei hou leng

[Rolling_Hand]

--I'd refrain from making blanket statements with little or no foundation. You could mislead people.

Right on...I second to that.
You're in a unique position to capitalize on a advisory role.
Go for it!

[Alpha Dog]

I wasn't referring to you, just listing the only Cantonese I know. Plus I only know it phonetically, not from a scholastic point of view.

I think it rocks that you are into learning Chinese languages, by the way!

Cheers,

AD

[dezhen2001]

You forgot the best Dim Sum dish Lie Wong Bao :D

david

[Phil Redmond]

I must be slipping. I didn't read your initial post where you said,..."The pronunciation represented by the phonetic spelling "Wing Chun" is Cantonese." Then what dialect is, 'Yong Chun?
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

Man, as hard as Cantonese was for me, I give you big props.
Chinese speakers of other dialects have asked me why I learned Cantonese. They said it is too difficult. Why don't you learn Mandarin? It is the national language of Communist China. Mandarin has only 4 tones. Cantonese has 7. (According to the Yale romainzation). Mandarin is a lot easier for Westerners and Chinese alike. Go figure.
Phil

[David Peterson]

'Yong Chun' is the Pinyin phonetic spelling for the Mandarin pronunciation of the system. The full term would be 'Yong Chun Quan', for 'Wing Chun Kuen'.
DMP

[PQS]

Could someone let me know which language is used in Wingtsun
thanks in advance
Peter

[rubthebuddha]

cantonese. it's a southern art, y'all.

[PQS]

Thanks RTB
Peter

[teazer]

But if you were to ask what language is used in 'Yong Chun", that'd most likely be Mandarin!

[Phil Redmond]

And it's pronounced, Wing Chun in Cantonese.

[yylee]

I think in the mandarin dialect, their are no such words as "Lap" and "Gum". However, Cantonese has them, even in written form (some Cantonese words are hard to find in dictionaries). Not sure about other dialects such as Fujianese.

[foolinthedeck]

i have a follow on question:
you know that cantonese doesnt have an english alphabet, and when we write a word like bong or tan we are just using english letters to approximate the phonetic sound... am i right so far?

so why arent all cantonese words written phoneticly in english? i mean take the 'surname' LEE - its phonetic, but also take TSE - its pronounced SHAY so why not spell it in english that way!!!

also other words like QI... cant think of others right now but they exist!

any thoughts?

[PQS]

So if Wing Chun is Southern and Cantonese, is it Kung Fu or Gong Fu, and if it is Kung Fu as I think it may be how come Bruce Lee called it Gong Fu
Regards
Peter

[Phil Redmond]

Wing Chun Kung Fu mixes two dialects of Chinese, Cantonese and Mandarin. It should be Wing Chun Gung Fu, and Yong Chun Kung Fu.

[captain]

peter,next time you meet a savage looking chinese girl,say
this to her.
"hey baby,ying tong yiddle i po".

the results should prove intersting for you.

Russ

[PQS]

Russ the sad thing is I remember buying that!!
regards
Peter

[Alpha Dog]

"Siu Gie, Lei Ho Leng" will get you further.

Better yet: "Wo yi jing ai le ni shi bei ze le!"

But the best is: "Xiao Jie, ni you she me dong xi ka zai ni ya chr shang ne?"

[yylee]

what if she goes Pak Sau on your face and says:

"Sai Haam Sop Lo!"

[chris]

Hi,

>>>>foolinthedeck i have a follow on question:
you know that cantonese doesnt have an english alphabet, and when we write a word like bong or tan we are just using english letters to approximate the phonetic sound... am i right so far?

I believe that English and other European laguages use the Roman alaphabet - hence representing Chinese characters using the roman alphabet is called Romanization.

>>>so why arent all cantonese words written phoneticly in english?

The same letter can represent different sounds in different languages - for example "j" in Spanish being pronounced like "h" in English. Romanizing Cantonese phonetically using English would not convey the correct Cantonese pronounciation to non-English speakers.

>>>also other words like QI... cant think of others right now but they exist!

Qi is pinyin a Romaniztion of Madarin, the same word in Canronese is hei prounced like the English word "hay". As Phil mentioned in his post, people tend to mix Cantonese and Mandarin when talking about wing chun particularly - when a Mandarin word such as Qi is more common in usage among non-Cantonese speakers.

>>>>any thoughts?

Pick one of the existing Cantonese Romanization schemes and learn it. The 7-tone Yale system or the modified 6 -tone Yale system (devised to fool Harvard students who were sent to spy on Chinese language classes in New Haven :) )
seems to be the most common on the internet . I personally prefer jyutping which is the system used by the Linguistic Society of Hong Kong which was developed in the 1990s I believe. There are other systems as well.

[Phil Redmond]

I speak Cantonese and learned the Yale Romanization which is still used by the the US Dept of State Foreign Service Institute. I think the 7 tones is a more accurate depiction of Cantonese for an English speaker. I started the Yale University Wing Chun club in 1989. One of my students in New Haven still keeps the club going at Payne Whitney. I was just there a few months ago. I'm not sure if Yale is still teaching Cantonese now. Good for those Harvard guys.
Princeton s***s but Harvard sw*****s....grin.

[chris]

Hi Phil,

I have been learning Cantonese for about a year and half - making slow but steady progress. Most of the materials (particularly written material) I use employ 6 tones - I have enough trouble trying to distinguish between 6 tones - adding the 7th might be more than I can take.

My summer intern goes to Yale and she is going to check her course catalog to see if Cantonese is still taught. She is an interesting story - she was born in Shanghi - and came to the U.S. at age 5 speaking only Shanghinese. She can now speak English and Mandarin and started attending Yale at age 16.

It is nice that the Wing Chun club you started lives on.

[Phil Redmond]

The Yale Far Eastern Studies Dept. has moved from New Haven to Brantford, CT. Just in case your looking for books or tapes the number there is, 203-432-3109. Ask for Pat or John. I still have my text books and tapes from school but I hear they are hard to get now. I tried to get a Cantonese dictionary on ebay. They were asking a few hundred dollars for a copy. I have a small one but it isn't like the one Yale printed. I should have bought one when I was in school.

[chris]

Hi Phil,
Do Je.

[ntc]

Chris:

Just FYI.... use Mmm Goi instead of Do Je in this context. Both mean "thank you", but "Do Je" is used when you are presented with a gift. "Mm Goi" is used when someone does you a favour. Here, Phil is doing you a favour by sharing with you Cantonese language resources that he has, and hence you would show appreciation for the favour with a "Mm Goi" (as opposed to the "Do "Je").

Now, however, if Phil goes on and gives you his material (whether you buy it from him or he gives you for free), you would say "Do Je", as it becomes a gift from him. It would still be considered a gift even if you purchased it from him as it is something special to him and he might otherwise not have sold it to anyone else.

[reneritchie]

M'sai...

[reneritchie]

With character based languages like Chinese, you run into the problem of not having enough ways to properly render sound using the Roman Alphabet. For example, since Qi was brought up, Qi in Mandarin is vocalized differently from Chi. There are several pairs, Chi/Qi, Ji/Zhi, Ci/Zi, which represent exparated vs. non-experated sounds. (In old style Wade Giles, they would use the appostrophe for this - Chi/Ch'i, which is why you see Taijiquan as Tai Chi Ch'uan in old books).

To understand what exparated vs. non-exparated is, place your hand in front of your mouth and say 'Chi', if you feel a little gust of air coming from your mouth, that's exparated. Now try to say it with no gust of air. Now realize the small difference, in Chinese, connotes *totally different words*.

Other problems people have run into, for example, include the amount of tones in Cantonese. While in modern Mandarin there are only 4, easily marked with accents (- / V \), Cantonese could have from 6-9 (depending on how precise you are being). Not enough accents, so in one system of Romanization, they took to adding an 'h' before the lower sets of tones. Thus Sil would be for the high tones while Shil would be for the low tones.

Now, if everyone would just learn to read 10,000 or so Chinese Characters, we wouldn't need to worry... 8)

David - BTW, it's not the Cantonese exclusive characters that worry me so much as the local exclusive sounds that there aren't even characters for! ;)

[kj]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Now, if everyone would just learn to read 10,000 or so Chinese Characters, we wouldn't need to worry... 8)

I'm working on it. I have progress on at least a few dozen already, LOL.

Regards,
- kj

[chris]

Hi Ntc,
Thanks for the correction. I have always had trouble with when to use m goi or do je - I understand the gift versus favor/service distinction but as you could see I often can't remember which goes with which. But since we are on the subject - what about othersituations? For example I have learned that in reply to nei hou ma, I could respond with say hou hou do je. Why in this case use do je instead of m'goi? Or have I learned incorrectly.

Hi Phil,
m goi.

[yylee]

Originally posted by reneritchie
David - BTW, it's not the Cantonese exclusive characters that worry me so much as the local exclusive sounds that there aren't even characters for! ;)

Rene, on the contrary, years ago there was a TV show in HK called "a character a day". In it the professor actually dug up some old old Chinese characters that made up many local Cantonese exclusive sounds. Thus they become our exclusive characters! Besides, there are many village Cantonese accents (FatShan, ToiShan, HokShan, Sam Sui, Shun Woei...) that complicate things even further. Mandarin also have characters that aren't used often by Southerners. Like "sleepy" being "Eye Fun" in Cantonese but "Quan" in Mandarin.

[reneritchie]

Chris,

I usually default to Ma Ma Fu Fu (Horse Horse Tiger Tiger, which of course means "eh" ;) but you can go with "Ho, Ho, Nai Ne?" which spins it back around on them with the "you?"

Or just respond with a gesture. Many are universal ;)

David, please, Guangzhou slang is more than enough to make my brain hurt. If I have to worry about villages a few feet away with totally different slang, I may just switch to something simpler, like Martian \8o

[chris]

Hi Rene,
Gestures? You mean like this response by Philip Wong Yu-hong to protesters in Hong Kong? :)

http://www.flyingchair.net/rant/story.php?storyID=588

[Phil Redmond]

Rene,
The reason I have a hard time reading Chinese today is because my text books used colloquial Cantonese characters. There was no character for words like m', and keuih in standard written pai-hua Chinese. So some characters had to be 'coined'.

Chris,
m sai haakhei.

[reneritchie]

Hi Phil,

I had the same problem with the little Cantonese I was learning. I did 2 years of Mandarin, though, and then only had to worry about using 'simplified' characters when everything I was interested in was written in 'complex' 8)

[yylee]

Phil

m'? You mean this (see attached)?

[ntc]

Chris,

In response to your question, you are correct in saying "hou hou do je", indicating that "do je" is the proper form of "thak you" to be used here. The reason why you would use "do je" in this context is that you are assuming that you are being wished well by the other person, hence the well wishes is the "gift" in this case. However, as Rene also pointed out in his example, it is very common for people NOT needing to add a "thank you" in the response, but in its place, a return question.

For example:
- A asks B, "Nei hou ma?" (ie, how are you?)
- B responds: "Gei hou. Nei ne?" (ie, Pretty good. You?)

If you want to add a form of courtesy here, it would be more appropriate to respond with the following:
- "Gei hou. Nei yau sum". (ie, Pretty good. You've got a good heart (here, this would be synonymous to "thank you").
- This example is very, very commonly used. The "do je" is NOT a common "thank you" response to the "nei hou ma".

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Chris,

I usually default to Ma Ma Fu Fu (Horse Horse Tiger Tiger, which of course means "eh" ;)

I think you are confusing Ma Ma Hu Hu with Little Rabbit Fru Fru, RR.

Little Ma Ma Hu Hu
Boppin' through the forest,
Pickin' up the Lao Shu
Bop 'em on the head...

Ma Ma Hu Hu = comme ci comme ca (you see, I am learning-guh!)

:D

[yuanfen]

guh?

The frogs will get you for that!

[yylee]

Meah Waah! I thought "Ma Ma Hu Hu" means "just getting by, ok la".... eh!

[chris]

Hi Ntc,
Thanks for answering my question.

>>>If you want to add a form of courtesy here, it would be more appropriate to respond with the following:
- "Gei hou. Nei yau sum". (ie, Pretty good. You've got a good heart (here, this would be synonymous to "thank you").
- This example is very, very commonly used. The "do je" is NOT a common "thank you" response to the "nei hou ma".

Very interesting - of course now you have lowered my confidence in the accuracy of the tapes I am using!

[reneritchie]

Chris,

Imagine teaching English by tape, and then seeing a forum where people are discussing:

After "how are you?" should I say:

"fine, thanks"
"good, and you?"
"not bad..."

You'd of course know that all were possible answers. The same with Chinese or most languages. Your books will give you one (hopefully common) possibility, and the fun will start when people you meet who speak the language come back with 1001 variations.

AD - Nei Sik Gong Faatmaan? Wah....

[chris]

Hi Rene,

>>>Imagine teaching English by tape, and then seeing a forum where people are discussing:

After "how are you?" should I say:

"fine, thanks"
"good, and you?"
"not bad..."

You'd of course know that all were possible answers. The same with Chinese or most languages. Your books will give you one (hopefully common) possibility, and the fun will start when people you meet who speak the language come back with 1001 variations.>>

Your point is well taken- what surprised me is NTC saying that do je was not a common response - even though what constitutes a common response in a given language may exhibit regional and/or socioeconomic variation. Anyway, irregardless of common usage issues, I just plain like "you've got a good heart" better as a response :)

[Phil Redmond]

For those that don't know, the Chinese characters under Alpha Dog's name are from an old Chinese song from about 20 years ago.
"Wo bu chou dan shi wo tai wen rou" in Mandarin, which literally
means "I am not ugly but I am too docile and gentle," and can probably be
interpreted as "I am not ugly but I am very caring."

[reneritchie]

irregardless

See, now imagine poor NTC going nuts trying to find that non-word? He might consider American lingua-fusion, irrespective and regardless of intent, anticipointing to say the least :)

And agreed on the good heart.

Phil, maybe the western ditty, "She ain't pretty she just looks this way" was a cover of that old tune?

[yylee]

hmmm....I remember the song's name was actually:

"Wo hun chou dan shi wo hun wen rou"

says "I'm very ugly but I'm very caring"

can't remember the singer's name, but he's not a handsome guy at all. May be Phil was referring to a different song.....

:D

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by reneritchie

AD - Nei Sik Gong Faatmaan? Wah....

Ngo ho zhong yi sik haa gao, siu mai, cha siu bao, m'goi (mmmkayyyy).

[ntc]

Chris,

No need to lose confidence in the tapes you are using. I think you are using the right approach. The tapes will teach you the language itself. You will then need to find folks to practice with so that you will be able to use the language along with the proper "slangs", "idioms", etc. I think you should be commended just for taking the initiative in trying to learn such a tough language. Same goes for all the other folks here who seem to have a pretty good understanding of the Cantonese language.

I was fortunate to have learned Cantonese as my native language. It is definitely one of the toughest (if not THE toughest) dialect among all the Chinese dialects.

Keep up the great work, all !!!

[Phil Redmond]

I was fortunate to have learned Cantonese as my native language. It is definitely one of the toughest (if not THE toughest) dialect among all the Chinese dialects.
Mandarin speakers always ask me why I learned Cantonese because it's harder. It seem that Mandarin is easier for Westerners. Do you agree? Also, thanks.
Phil

[ntc]

Originally posted by reneritchie


See, now imagine poor NTC going nuts trying to find that non-word? He might consider American lingua-fusion, irrespective and regardless of intent, anticipointing to say the least :)

And agreed on the good heart.

Phil, maybe the western ditty, "She ain't pretty she just looks this way" was a cover of that old tune?


I AM SOOOOOO PO !!!!! (hehehehehe)

[ntc]

Originally posted by chris
Your point is well taken- what surprised me is NTC saying that do je was not a common response - even though what constitutes a common response in a given language may exhibit regional and/or socioeconomic variation. Anyway, irregardless of common usage issues, I just plain like "you've got a good heart" better as a response :)

You see..... the "heart" response versus the "do je" is the norm when responding to the "nei hou ma" question in both Hong Kong and Macao. Now, there is a good chance that there may be alternative response(s) in other Cantonese-speaking places like FutShan, Canton, or even Singapore where Cantonese is as widely spoken as Mandarin. I think as you have a chance to practice with Cantonese-speaking people from different places, you will find it very intriguing the variations that exist. I know I did.

[ntc]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond

Mandarin speakers always ask me why I learned Cantonese because it's harder. It seem that Mandarin is easier for Westerners. Do you agree? Also, thanks.
Phil

I definitely agree that Mandarin is much easier. It has only five standard tones. The tones are also much easier to master, as they are not as nasal- or throat-based as Cantonese.

[Alpha Dog]

That distinction depends on your hearing. If you're tone deaf, both dialects, in fact all languages, are going to be hard to learn. If you aren't tone deaf and you have the opportunity to practice what you learn, no language should be difficult.

[cho]

The best way to help learn is to immerse yourself in the media of the language. Listen to Chinese music, and watch movies. and with movies, you'd be able to pick up more of the words 'regular' people use, rather than textbook speak.

Thanks to p2p sharing and the internet canto-pop is so much easier to find.

[Alpha Dog]

Originally posted by cho
The best way to help learn is to immerse yourself in the media of the language. Listen to Chinese music, and watch movies. and with movies, you'd be able to pick up more of the words 'regular' people use, rather than textbook speak.

Thanks to p2p sharing and the internet canto-pop is so much easier to find.

You forgot the real best way -- get a Chinese girlfriend!

;)

[cho]

Originally posted by Alpha Dog

You forgot the real best way -- get a Chinese girlfriend!

everybody, forget what I said, this way will get you real lessons AND some shu-mai.