Internal, External, Peng, Spirals, Psychic Powers, Structure and Philosophy.....

[Fu-Pow]

Ok...here we go.....

I've noticed that there seems to be two camps on the side of the internal and external debate.

One that believes that "internal" refers to some psychic, philosophical, meditative or spiritual aspect. In this sense any martial art including karate could be "internal." If I focus my whole intention on what I'm doing and really "get into" what I'm doing then under this definition any art can be "internal". For that matter ANY activity can be "internal."

The other camp sees "internal" as a merely a different kind of body mechanic than "external arts". A "dynamic self stretching" excercise. One that depends on spiral movements, both in the arms and in the torso. Its goal is to create a springy type of energy different than the stiff energy of the "external arts." You are essentially making your body into a spring.


So how can there be such a large difference in the perception of what internal means?

It think that this is largely due to cultural and temporal differences. Taiji has essentially been taken out of the language and culture it was in and placed into Western culture.

This has especially created confusion concerning the meaning of the classic Taiji texts.

For example in the classics is states that the "waist" is the key to all movement. In a western culture we wear our pants directly above the hip but in ancient china the pants were worn much higher up around the middle!!!!!!!!

So if we can't even know what they mean by the waist how can we unravel ideas like mind-intent, spirit, chi, doubleweightedness etc.

For example, from our metaphysical standpoint we think of the spirit residing in the head when the ancient Chinese saw it as residing in the center of the body near the heart.

The classics are made more confusing by references to Chinese medical theories.

Even many Chinese practitioners are confused by temporal differences. The concept of double weighting for example uses an old Chinese character which could have multiple meanings.

What's the point of my rant?

Internal and external are different ways of moving, not different ways of thinking. You can think however you want about your art but it will never be "internal" in the sense of an "internal art."

Internal arts are not mystical. Much of what seems mystical is really just another way of moving. They don't require any belief in anything that is other worldly. Meditation may be a key to body awareness but please don't believe that it will allow you to shoot "laser beams" out of your palms.

The ancient masters used terms that were available to them but they are utimately very confusing when taken out of there context (even sometimes within there context.)

My suggestion to everyone is that as you learn Taiji learn to read Chinese and learn about about the culture that the classics were written in. Then you can go back to the original texts and decipher the meaning for yourself.

[bamboo_ leaf]

“Even many Chinese practitioners are confused by temporal differences. The concept of double weighting for example uses an old Chinese character which could have multiple meanings.”

“My suggestion to everyone is that as you learn Taiji learn to read Chinese and learn about about the culture that the classics were written in. Then you can go back to the original texts and decipher the meaning for yourself.”

if native Chinese readers can get it wrong or misunderstand it, how is it that some one learning the language would be able to decipher the meaning?

[Ka]

Great post Fupow,even if the title is duanting as all hell.
I sort of agree I think people jumped on these words as ways to explain themselves out of situations.
What gets me is originally when I was first introduced to the Neijia through taichi I was constanctly told of the big 3 and there differences to say Karate.However as more and more styles are transmitted (for lack of a better word )fully,I often come across practioners of a style utilizing internal principles.eg Pak mei,Yiquan/TaiKiKen,tongbiquan.This can be put down to the west not being exposed to these stlyes in the way that Taichi was promoted over here.And also our lack of reseach/interest in considering other options.
got to go

[prana]

I know you probably hate my posts but if you dont mind me trying to clarrify it all up for you.

First of all, there are two disctinct sections of what we call internal. And you have pin-pointed both quite clearly. What is the mechanical side of it, and the other is the subtler meridian body system. Although on the surface, they suffer from duality, in fact they are closely connected and not so different.

Let me begin by looking at the so called "internal".


One that believes that "internal" refers to some psychic, philosophical, meditative or spiritual aspect. In this sense any martial art including karate could be "internal." If I focus my whole intention on what I'm doing and really "get into" what I'm doing then under this definition any art can be "internal". For that matter ANY activity can be "internal."

This statement is in fact incredibly true and you have my utmost respect for saying this. In the very fact, when the teachers told us to pay attention to what we are doing, even in everyday life, it is training the mind in awareness and mindfulness. This way, our every movement, every moment becomes a state of heightened awareness and meditation. This heightened moment of intention is called "samadhi" and the closest translation I know of in chinese is "Yi". During such a state, two fundamental times no longer exists, and that is of the future and the past, the mind is not scattered and the mindfulness of the abosulte present makes themind focussed without effort, this is important. I find certain teachers do not emphasise enough that focus is not a "desperate craving to feel", far from it. Focus, is a "merging with". Such as when I say focus on your palms, I am not saying, try hard as you might to "feel" your palm, but simply place your attention patiently, slowly and peacefully at your palm. When the mind becomes less and less distracted by external influences and coarser sensations, eventually, one will find the palm is simoply scattered with energy.

If one is able to maintain this heightened state of awareness, the practitioner eventually discovers the very awareness becomes attached to fluidity in the body. I avoid the word internal here because I do not want to confuse wth the subject. Some call it internal winds, but call it whatever you want.

_____________________________________________



The other camp sees "internal" as a merely a different kind of body mechanic than "external arts". A "dynamic self stretching" excercise. One that depends on spiral movements, both in the arms and in the torso. Its goal is to create a springy type of energy different than the stiff energy of the "external arts." You are essentially making your body into a spring.

This too is true, and as you clearly stated, different. Of course, it has somethign to do with Chi, for without Chi, you wouldnt be able to move to execute anything, but yes they are in essence different. At least at his course level.


For example, from our metaphysical standpoint we think of the spirit residing in the head when the ancient Chinese saw it as residing in the center of the body near the heart.

As a human being, the indestructable elements are locked in the heart center by a knotted central psychic nerve. This center branches into 8 petals which further extend into the rest of the bodies meridians. This energy center located between the center of your two nipples and about 3/4 ways back to your back in front of your spine. It is not to be mistaken by the Dan-Tien which is about 3-4 finger widths for a male below the navel (1 for a female), and about 3/4 ways towards the back of the body in front of the spine. This "wheel" has 64 petals, at which its utmost, importance is where the "mother" element resides, and where the two breathe channels end up twisting back into the central nerve. Hence, in Chi-Gung, the first lesson is to breathe into your Dan-tien, and discover this energy center.
This is where you mentioned the "waist".


The classics are made more confusing by references to Chinese medical theories

The reason for this correlation is that when ones mind has become impure, two things happens. The wind is scattered and dispursed, nerves become blocked. Secondly, the most important energy center becomes cluttered and less blissful. Therefore, the connection between physical sicknesses and spiritual wisdom holds so strongly, in all meditative arts.

When ones blockages becomes riped, one manifests as a sickness, an energy imbalance. Death of course, is the ultimate result, and at this time, payment in terms of suffering, and pain, is exchanged for the release of the indestructable drops.

Of course, I wouldn't say to you, if you broke your arm, go see a Western doctor or eastern doctor, the eastern doctor might not be able to put your bones together the way they were once before. It should all be a matter of worldly wisdom too. But this is beyond this topic, and I trust most people here know this quite clearly.


Internal arts are not mystical. Much of what seems mystical is really just another way of moving. They don't require any belief in anything that is other worldly. Meditation may be a key to body awareness but please don't believe that it will allow you to shoot "laser beams" out of your palms

This is the center of your discussion. It is definitely not mystical, but there is a reason when sifu says, practise patiently, and do not be distracted. Let the mind carry the movement, as the movement is the mind. You are really moving what I have been calling "wind" around your body. By merging your mind iwith your hand or legs or whatever, you are moving away from duality and enhancing the control of the winds. Winds are less scattered and the mind heals and becomes instantly more peaceful. Your concentration improves. Everntually your arms become to filled with energy winds, they seem to move on their own as your mind's intent is. More significantly, you feel strong, indestructable and instantantenously able to transofrm your movements without muscular strain. This is the movement and control of your energy winds.

It is simple, very simple yet so difficult to achieve. Those who have achieve it, show signs of humbleness, more often than not will not talk more than is required (like I am doing here) and will do much to help others without anything in return. They willl value all life forms with kindness and may hit your head for the sake of your progress not for the sake of their anger.

You mentioned that you think that many practitioners of TaiJi should learni Chinese. My personal opinion is that many practitioners of Tai-ji should find a good teacher, and once he does, leave all concepts behind and practise emptiness. Without emptiness, and doubt, craving and hate, the winds will be scattered, and the mind unblissful.

sorry my explanation is long winded and unclear, I do hope it helps you a little.

[Fu-Pow]

"As a human being, the indestructable elements are locked in the heart center by a knotted central psychic nerve. This center branches into 8 petals which further extend into the rest of the bodies meridians. This energy center located between the center of your two nipples and about 3/4 ways back to your back in front of your spine. It is not to be mistaken by the Dan-Tien which is about 3-4 finger widths for a male below the navel (1 for a female), and about 3/4 ways towards the back of the body in front of the spine. This "wheel" has 64 petals, at which its utmost, importance is where the "mother" element resides, and where the two breathe channels end up twisting back into the central nerve. Hence, in Chi-Gung, the first lesson is to breathe into your Dan-tien, and discover this energy center.
This is where you mentioned the "waist". "

Thank you for your response. I can tell from your response that you must be at a very high level of understanding. A couple of questions:

So are you saying that in essence the "waist" as named by the Taiji classics is at the center of the torso? And that this is the main "controller of Chi" or the "spirit" or "knotted psychic nerve"? Is there anywhere I can do more reading about this?One other question. I've been getting really painful knots in my back right around the area that your talking about. Is this a bad or good sign?




You mentioned that you think that many practitioners of TaiJi should learn Chinese. My personal opinion is that many practitioners of Tai-ji should find a good teacher, and once he does, leave all concepts behind and practise emptiness.

I agree with you here. However, learning about Chinese culture and philosophy will definitely help you in your journey. Language is definitely a key to this though. Otherwise all your info will be second hand.

[Repulsive Monkey]

The scope of our own experiences doesn't necessarily define the parameters of reality you know! Whilst you had made your statement and sought to clarify a much talked about subject, you still like one or two occasions in the past have made some statements which are not really correct, based on presumption. I do not mean for this to be insulting, far from it. However so-called mystical things like levitation, empty force and all that stuff cannot be written off because someone hasn't experienced it in their life. So when you say that meditation does not permit one to "shoot laser beams" from their hands, I suggest you read the biography of Jetsun Milarepa, any texts on Chang Sang-feng, and others who have acheived credible levels of Mastery in their lives. You may be very surprised at what meditation can acheive, one one so wants these things. The mystical is no longer recognised as mystical when it is known. I like the way how Don Juan Matus was quoted by Carlos Castaneda as dividing up up all reality up into the known, the unknown and the unknowable. Its just stages of comprehension.

[Fu-Pow]

You have some valid points repulsive monkey. But remember I never claimed to be a master of anything or to know everything.

I have a very open mind but my mind closes as soon as people start talking about supernatural/paranormal stuff. "Chi" as it applies to TCM or Taiji does not need to be supernatural. Perhaps it is just something that Science has not fully grasped yet.

However, things like levitation and empty force are in direct conflict with the basic laws of physics so the door shuts there....most of these can be explained as "tricks" or hoaxes.

Even most of the Chi Gung "demonstrations" you see out there are hoax.

[prana]

I've been getting really painful knots in my back right around the area that your talking about. Is this a bad or good sign?

Hey Fu-Pow

Becareful, as I said before, a good Chi master knows that much talking (like me) is a waste of Chi. So I am by no means expert in the area (I talk to much...). You need to find a teacher that you can relate to and practise, practise, practise. I only share iwth you because I feel as if you really want to know what Chi is, but have found many hindrances, and I want to help you in the way.

Hmmmm it is so difficult to say what can be causing this pain. It could be anything from a muscular fatigue, to removal of hindrances on the psychic nerves. However, if the pain arises during meditation (or breath retention) then perhaps you might be pushing too hard, or your posture needs to be corrected. Sometimes these are signs of progress, othertimes they are warning signs. Please seek proper advice. The internet is just too lose.

What Repulsive said is very true in my opinion, we are often capped by the possibilities because we too often draw conclusions, but I can tell you have an open mind, and want to see for yourself. I think this is very wise, I hope you find many successes and signs.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Folly.. is to confine the infinite and eternal universe to the limits of our own perceptions..

" I have a very open mind but my mind closes as soon as people start talking about supernatural/paranormal stuff. "Chi" as it applies to TCM or Taiji does not need to be supernatural. Perhaps it is just something that Science has not fully grasped yet. "

Human potential is limited only by self-imposed boundaries and shortsightedness.. Rather than closing your mind, perhaps you can recognize the difference in semantics.. i agree, there is no "magic", only natural events we don't quite comprehend yet.. Perhaps, that is what the "paranormal/supernatural" verbage references, just different views..

I assure you i have witnessed events (some MA, some not) that leave no doubt in my own mind that there is a vast uncharted universe of experience out there.. i have witnessed a well known Spiritualist manifest an irridescent gas-like blue orb +/- 4 inches in diameter in the palms of her hands.. tangible and without trickery.. A sincere woman seeking to demonstrate "potential"..

"basic laws of physics".. Remember, 500 years ago there was quite a different set of "basic laws of physics".. as our ability to comprehend expands, so do our "laws".. Change is the universal constant, to set your perceptions in stone is to stagnate.. to dig in your heels and declare that some form or system is "the One".. is to stagnate.. Our beloved Tai Chi was developed by trial and error, by men and women willing to step out into new experiences.. To take what the originators set in motion and preserve it, is tradition.. to deny that there is no more to add to their humble beginnings, is to stagnate and suffocate the art..

"levitation.. laser beams".. why not?.. i would rather leave the opportunity open, than close myself off from the unlimited potential offered by such a gracious universe.. Each of us are explorers, some will explore the known, some will explore the unknown, adding to the known..

Hmmm.. should we learn Chinese? Heck, most of us (me included) need to work on our native language.. look at the differing perceptions of simple sentences displayed here.. better, i think, that we learn to communicate our experiences in our own languages such that we can pass it on with our own clarity.. to assume that validity and clarity resides only a culture or language is establishing boundaries that i, personally, wish to avoid.. i do, however, honor past masters and their lineage.. (the Calligraphy is very appealing).. But, Truth is the experience itself.. not the words, labels and judgments we use to describe it..

Yikes.. just noticed the time..
Be well, All...

[Ray Pina]

Fu-Pow, I share a similiar midset as yourself. When I hear about people shooting energy at someone across the room, I do this:;)

Can it be done? Maybe, I believe anything is possible in this reality, but, those accounts always seem to be from someone who heard or read about some old guy from long ago. The western world has some stories too: Robin Hood, the Green Night, ect. Doesn't mean they are true.

Now, I have tremendous respect for the old masters as well as the rare few ones around today. Not because of this mysticxal crap, and, the one that I know, and from the ones that I haveheard about, they are insulted by the suggestions of such things.

But with that said, I beleive your equation is missing a major point: Intention, yes, very important. Proper mechanics, also importnant. ENERGY, that is also important and quite different.

The difference is that Wing CHun will swear up and down that they are internal. Compared to what? Even Hung Gar. The tenants of Hung GAr are 100% against internal. The metal rings on the arms, 100% against the goals and aspirations of internal.

Proper breathing and allignment. Take S. Mantis. I respect these guys as fighters. But the way they collapse the chest is unhealthy. My old sifu actually had to get his intestines opened up and had a serious operation. Others look older then they are. Their way puts pressure on the heart.

Ba Gua and Hsing-I -- as well as E-Chuan -- will control that important territory as well, even bow the back, but the chest is bowed as well -- not collapsed. Its subtle, but the untrained eye most likely will not notice it. But the difference? My master as 60 looks like he's 40, and punches like a 19 yera old on steroids. I've seen mantis guys of 50 fully grey with withdrawn faces, almost looking like junkies. They might be good fighters, or were, because force against force works only so much, to a certain age, or even young against a certain sized foe, but then what? What about healthy? What about maintaining and actually upgrading ones foighting with age?

This is a huge differnce.

[Repulsive Monkey]

This thread seems to hold all the ingredients of a healthy balanced thread, which when it comes to these subjects always seems to get out of hand and end up being abandonded. Experience has a lot to said for, and that also accounts for experienceing fakes aswell as genuine articles, to which there is a varying degree of both iun the world. It's usually the fakes that make money out of these claims and the genuine articles who have save a couple of disciples and remain unamed mostly. My words are not the words of ultimate truth and do not try to convince anywone of what I have experienced but I do respect Tachibob for giving his example. I too have had experiences whixh left no doubt in my limited mind, due to the reasons and conditions under which I witnessed either acts of levitation, empty force, telepathy or even bi-location. I may be a happy fool and live my days telling everyone that what I saw as the truth, no matter how heiniously it breaks the laws of Physics (even scientists know for a fact they aren't infalible and in reality are just waiting to be broken by science itself at any given chance), but I like a few others remain more to the side of convinced. However I was tricked then, its a poor state for Internal Martial arts, Tibetan Buddhism and spiritualism if this is how they gain trust! Some people ARE genuine, and whether one likes it or not its a fact. There is a difference between fakes and the real mcoy's sometimes its finer thatn you think, sometimes its just plain obvious!!

[Fu-Pow]

Repulsive Monkey-

I have know doubt that their will be groundbreaking and startling discoveries in the next few years in the fields of cosmology and quantum physics. As a human race we have only scratched the surface. But I highly doubt that anyone has reached a level "understanding" about the universe in the same way that western science has. It is foolish to think that the laws of physics are immutable, but it will probably take great expense and technology to break them. It will not be so easy as doing martial arts or meditating.

There are few books out there that make a connection between high level western science and eastern mysticism. But these connections have to be taken at face value. Although the quantum physicist and the mystic may seem to be saying the same thing in actuality it is the constraints of language that make them seem similar, rather than the methodology that was used to arrive at the conclusion.

And while I don't think science can explain everything in the universe it at least sets the basic ground rules in which we operate. Things like levitation, emptyforce and other paranormal phenomena do not fit with in these ground rules. It may be our perception that they are real. But like the magicians of europe in the middle ages they will eventually be exposed for the frauds that they are. Only when you see someone produce a "glowing ball of energy" in a controlled environment can you make the claim that it is "real."

Thanks everyone for a great discussion.

[bamboo_ leaf]

“claim that it is "real."

I think it is very sad when we need science to validate everything under controlled conditions. this would tend to leave out many things in the human condition namely things like self-consciousness, sprit, mind, heart.

Using what is known and accepted can only explain things from a certain viewpoint that we may or may not agree upon. This in itself only makes it real until something is shown otherwise. I don’t think that it negates the possibility of other realities. those that deal in other realities may have no interest in proveing something one way or another they know it.

Many of the threads here deal with human concepts developed by the Chinese culture using a model for the most part is not explored here in the west.

Its funny when they do recognize something like (poly metrics), which many IMA styles have been using since their inception they call it some thing else and claim it as some new advancement. (just using poly metrics as an example in the context of my understanding) same thing with many drugs.

Real, what is real? Something so far out of your reality you may not even be able to see it. Your mind wouldn’t allow it. Witness all the threads on TC the different views and supposed camps of thoughts. Even the beginning of this thread starts with that.

Ideas like Shen,Yi,Chi may be very real and concrete for those that can understand and use these concepts. Others will talk of the right form or weather one should tuck their butt or not, body alignment ect.

I think it all reflects the reality of the person posting, if your not there or haven’t touched it hard to believe or even consider. I try not to view things as right or wrong but more of level and direction. I can only comment on things that I have felt and experienced, and wonder about those that I have not.


Every IMA teacher or couch that has worked with me always was able to project their reality widening my own. They did this by direct experience of what it was or was not. The lesson learned reflects the level of the student.

Some will view it as a mechanical process (alignment ect) others will view it as a mental or mind process (intention, will, ect) the one who can’t feel it cannot have any concept of it and if s/he doesn’t follow the teacher’s advice this aspect will remain closed.

The other can see past the mechanical process and feel what is actually being done.

In the leafs Army days, people used to say “ they can’t do that” the leafs reply was “they can, they will, they do”

again a matter of preception based on level of exprience.

agree good thread many good thoughts. :)

[Nexus]

There she was just a-walking down the street...

Singing Ooo Wah Ditty Ditty Dum Ditty Doo!

[red_fists]

As for Western science.

Personally, I don't lay too much faith on western science.

As for science testing if "Chi" exists or not, sounds a wee bit strange coming from scientists that take the existence of a Soul, Heaven, God & Devil as a given fact with no scientific proof.

Just something to ponder.

[Repulsive Monkey]

There is no end to your imbalance is there? I know this will probably sound like an insult but I do mean these things in humour too, but you seem to be really stuck with some of yours ideas, they come across as so stagnant and inexperienced. You say that levitation and emptyforce doesn't fit into the realms of qhantum physics... guess whats coming?... so what that really in the real world doesn't mean a single thing. Can see what I'm gonna come back with? Im just gonna take on your persona for a second or two, quantum physics doesn't fit in with the methods and laws of levitation/Lin Kong Jin. Now tell which of the two statements sounds the silliest??? Well, naturally they both sound just as biased. The known world and its so-called depedence on western science to pull us out of the Stone age and make us see the light for what it trully is, is such a blinkered view Fu Pow, can you not see that? I do no say that the side I fight for is the way either, but at least I don't rubbish your area of support, just your stance. Have you equally studied both areas to examine results? Have you tried Qi Gong for a resonablly good length of time, or meditation and then assessed your findings methodically to come up with your results like an good western scientist would??

All I say is in this world we cannot afford to be closed minded. I liked the way in one of Robert Anton Wilson's books where he states in his own words the 2 most important lessons that The Lord Buddha gave:

1) Never ever totally believe anybody else's belief system;
2) Never ever totally believe your own belief system.

That man's a genius......

[prana]

bamboo_leaf

beautiful *sob* *sob*


I think it all reflects the reality of the person posting, if your not there or haven’t touched it hard to believe or even consider. I try not to view things as right or wrong but more of level and direction.


wise words :)

[Fu-Pow]

Have you equally studied both areas to examine results? Have you tried Qi Gong for a resonablly good length of time, or meditation and then assessed your findings methodically to come up with your results like an good western scientist would??


Repulsive Monkey-

It is you that appears to be stuck in a single state of mind. As in the previous thread you have resorted to attacking my base of knowledge. I'm sorry but that is where the conversation ends. You have no knowledge or me as I have no knowledge of you. The internet is a poor medium to discuss such things.

I've never represented myself as an expert on the topic of quantum mechanics, TCM or Taiji. All I will say on the topic of my "credentials" is that I have studied these concepts for "a while."

I do have an "open mind" and my ideas are subject to change, but I need to see a credible and well reasoned argument first. If there are one lesson I've learned in my life it is that 1) Bullying people gets you nowhere and 2) you cannot force understanding on people. If you really care for your fellow kung fu brethren then you try to guide them and not lord over them or claim to know more than them. I'd expect that in the main forum but not here.

It is a shame that you insist on ending conversations in this way, when it was just getting good.

Peace

[PlasticSquirrel]

i should first say that i didn't read through all of the posts (mostly because some of them are really long...), but i think i can tackle the problem, or something. this is my favorite topic, anyway.

internal/external are not states of mind, nor body mechanics. if they were anything so simple, would we even be debating about these things? they deal with the manipulation of qi. in my experience, not being biased either toward the "external" styles or the "internal" styles, this is what the main difference is between the two:

both categories use qi, and use it well. both at a normal, good level of proficiency use form to direct qi. now, here it is in a nutshell: internal styles focus on using form to encourage qi flow, which powers the body in order to express itself. external styles encourage qi flow and express it by manipulating the tendons and muscles in accordance to their concepts (i.e. tiger, crane, dragon). neither is clearly better, and great masters from both sides have seemed mystical in their abilities.

is it only me that can see this? are there only a few people on this board that actually experience and manipulate qi as something tangible and normal? right now i am breathing through my feet, sharing qi with the floor as i sit. it's not that tough, if only people would stop reading and start practicing... it requires *constant* observation and speculation to get anywhere. if you don't know what works, what doesn't, and how you know when it does, how far can practitioners expect to get?

sorry about the rant, but this topic also seems to get me a little worked-up... :(

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Perhaps, the reason "butt-tucking" is taught is to correct incorrect postures.. Many of the westerners (me included) developed poor postures is their young years, you know, that "cool" slouching posture.. Whenever we say a "natural" posture, often we must first repair a poorly developed unnatural posture.. just because when we relax we assume a certain posture doesn't, by definition, make that a natural posture.. just like those that breathe with their chest muscles instead of their abdominals, just because that is what they are used to doesn't make it "natural".. Much of the early training for students is reshaping their concepts of "natural".. before good Tai Chi technique can be executed, you must have the correct "frame"..

I have been taught (and so i also teach) that the shoulders, hips, and ankles should be in vertical alignment when viewed from the side in a Wuji stance.. that the back should be perpendicular to the ground ( actually, aligned with the pull of gravity to minimize unbalanced pull).. this is a neutral position, allowing movement and response in any direction.. The back is treated as the axis/axle around which we rotate our energies.. if this axle is leaning or bent, rotation will wobble or require extra effort to maintain.. to afford the straightest axle with the minimum effort, a slight rotation forward of the hips seems to do the job nicely..

Have you ever been standing too long and had that ugly low-back pain remind you of poor posturing habits?.. try rotating your hips forward and slightly up.. almost invariably the pain is dissipated as you equally distribute the pull of gravity along the spine and open the Ming-men releasing the tension stored there.. This simple exercise is evidence that the spine should be aligned with the pull of gravity.. common-sense... The "S" shape of the spine is constantly compressed by the pull of gravity, putting unequal tension at the extremes of the curves.. the more we refine our stances to straighten and elongate the spine, the more we minimize the tension and associated pain..

"Butt-tucking", from my experience is not so much an issue of form, as an issue of correcting poor frames so that the form itself will be more correctly expressed..

just another perspective from the Far-side.. be well, all..

oops.. got my threads mixed up.. this should be on "Chi-Huggers and Butt-Tuckers".. i will copy this there.. sorry:(

[cherrypraxis]

i've enjoyed reading this thread. as usual, the leaf, prana, taichibob, repulsivemonkey and a few others show the wisdom of discretion...

lastly, a thank you to fu pow for opening this thread to which all these insightful queries have sprung in re-action to the initiated action...

some comments...

FuPow:

"I highly doubt that anyone has reached a level "understanding" about the universe in the same way that western science has."

i am uncomfortable with this statement because of the scope it implies. how do you define "western science"? where do you set the parameters of "western science"? do you mean from the epoch of the greeks and onwards? what level of "understanding" do you speak of?

like prana, i will have to agree with bamboo_leaf with his pivotal comment in this thread, "Real, what is real?" yes, it is sad that we utilize science to verify everything under controlled conditions. i suppose that it is only then that we can distinguish what is "real" and what is "illusion". it cannot be helped. to paraphrase the words of the french psychoanalyst jacques lacan, truth, once it is accepted, is harder to recognize from the reality it exists in. there is nothing wrong with using science as a tool and method of inquiry. however, it is also difficult to maintain an objective mindframe when one is already predisposed to a certain perspective. this is true for science. for instance, in classical physics and relativity theory, an objective reality, existing independently of an observer, was a given. this certainty has been shattered by the studies of werner heisenberg. it has been pointed out by this german physicist, in his groundbreaking theory about quantum phenomenon, that the observer is not a passive element in any given experiment and that we cannot separate the observer from what is being observed. science is not immutable. it is, like the proverbial everything else, subject to human flaw and error as it is the human mind and hand that wields it. it is, like the proverbial everything else, in need of constant upgrading.

another example of "western science's" fallibility and effect on what is accepted as reality: ptolemy's cosmological diagram that the earth is the center of the universe. this fit nicely with what the christian Church at the time believed to be "real," that man IS the center of the universe as dictated by the one god. the Church had galileo jailed for his copernican claim that the earth is NOT the center of the universe but rather another planet, or heavenly body, that revolves around the sun.


"It is foolish to think that the laws of physics are immutable, but it will probably take great expense and technology to break them. It will not be so easy as doing martial arts or meditating."

yes, it would seem that the laws of physics are immutable. are they really though? it seems that we, collectively speaking, are always putting our proverbial foot in our mouths. only time will prove whether they are, indeed, in the right or not. perhaps the laws are immutable but what of our perception of these laws?

i must disagree with your implication that martial arts or meditating are easy practices. "gong fu" means, loosely translated, mastery from effort. gong fu can be achieved through tea ceremony or painting as it can be from meditation and martial arts. how many can truly say that they have gong fu?


To PlasticSquirl:

you said:

"i should first say that i didn't read through all of the posts (mostly because some of them are really long...), but i think i can tackle the problem, or something. this is my favorite topic, anyway."

in context of the dialogue/thread and your own admission that you did not read through this thread, then you shouldn't have said:

"is it only me that can see this? are there only a few people on this board that actually experience and manipulate qi as something tangible and normal? right now i am breathing through my feet, sharing qi with the floor as i sit. it's not that tough, if only people would stop reading and start practicing... it requires *constant* observation and speculation to get anywhere. if you don't know what works, what doesn't, and how you know when it does, how far can practitioners expect to get?"


---

again, thank you all...this has been a stimulating thread to read...



:)

[Fu-Pow]

Cherry Praxis-

First of all, thank you for your thoughtful post. We need more of them.

By western science I mean the process of unraveling reality by the process of making a hypothesis and then testing the hypothesis in a controlled setting.

Interestingly enough I just watched an interesting show last night on discovery call "Physical Feats." Most of the documentary was centered around amazing "Physical Feats " in Asia and India. For example they had excorcisms, people walking on glass, people walking on nails, people pulling a car with hooks through the back of their skin, they had the monk Shi Yan Ming breaking boards etc.

And in the end , it could all be explained by simple freshman physics, psychology or "magic" tricks.

My favorite example was these North Indian monks who could supposedly raise their body temperature by meditating. They would go sit out in the mountain snow over night and miraculously never get cold. Well interestingly when the brought one of these monks back to the U.S. to a "controlled" environment he couldn't repeat the phenomena.

So how are these things like balls of floating plasma, lin kong jing etc. any different? There not and they cannot be repeated in a truly controlled environment.

Human perception is easily decieved.

As to the break down of Western science on the quantum level.

The point here is that it is on the quantum level. We don't live on the quantum level. We live in the atomic world with a whole different set of principles. So basically things that go on in the quantum world can effect the atomic world. But things in the atomic world don't necessarily have the reverse causality.

Now I've never maintained that Western Science can model and test everything. For example the human body is very complex and all the stuff going on is going to be perfectly explained. However, I will make the statement that whatever is modeled will fit in with basic physics and it has nothing to do with anything quantum.


Gotta go.........

[Repulsive Monkey]

It's a shame that you took my last comment the wrong way and also wrong to take it as a dedicated personal attack, because it wasn't by any means meant to be that harmful. However when you make generalisations, you have to expect that people
will challenge you to explain your statements. Of course its true you don't have to back them up with evidence if you don't want to, and thats fine. However when you make generalisations like "There not and they cannot be repeated in a truly controlled environment." what do you expect. Just because one single biased experiment is done, does that mean it cancels out every single occurence throughout history of that nature and labelled nice and tidily under that limiting label?? Thats just like the so-called Christian 700 club saying that all Muslims are evil. Do you then go out and accept that as fact and classify all Muslims the same? No of course you wouldn't would you Fu Pow? You accept that certain elements that just happen to be part of the Muslim community/faith have done something, possibly, to upset other people. This is exactly how you keep coming back to my responses to your statements.

I will agree to close down any further substantiation of this thread, and personal dialogue with you if its please you Fu Pow. However I do take some offence against your claims that I have defiled this thread merely because I ask you to substantiate and give your stance a revisionist once-over! I have just backed up my own experiences with my knowledge. I have never bullyed anyone in my life except for when I was probably 7 years old at school. I have some of your comments incredulous yes, but only to the point of trying understand where you're coming from and to suggest you maybe substantiate your claims. That isn't much to ask for is it?

I do not mean to create tension just seasoned debate.

[prana]

Good-day Fu-Pow,

I just wanted to say

I hope you do not feel as if you have been challenged ever since putting up this thread. I believe that you genuinely have an interest in this area, and I am greatful. Well done and I hope many successes and signs come to you.

I believe that if a seed has been planted, the plant will grow if it sees so fit, when the rain comes, so let nature take its course.

ps.
I am sad indeed I didnt get a chance to see the documentary you watched on chandali yoga.
_________________________________________________
Repulsive Monkey

In your defence, I do not think you have caused distraction in this thread. It suc-ks speaking on a public forum and with words, cause words do not do justice to your true intentions.

Don't allow mara to hinder your bodhicitta.

BTW, you were saying that you are seeing many hindrances ahead, how are you ?

_________________________________________________

[PlasticSquirrel]

heheh, i was actually just responding to the first post on the thread, and i got bored with the whole physics vs. qi stuff. it's a lot of reading, and i was a bit tired. my ranting was actually not directed at anyone, but rather the groups of people that the thread originator was addressing and referring to.

i got a little agitated because i constantly see people just "not getting" it, and then leading other blind people. it has now become acceptable for people on this forum to not "believe" in qi, like it's from a fairy tale, or some body mechanics phenomenon. it is also bad (but not nearly as bad), when people mystify it all.

i have only been practicing for a few short years, but i can already see that there are few on this forum that talk about qi with any sort of practical experience. even the guys that "keep it [gongfu] real", and claim to be able to fight really well show little depth, and a lot of unrefined brute force.

i guess the point of my post is this (i don't want to just whine on this one): listen to the people that understand and have experience. ask them how they know something if it seems questionable, and if they are able to do it, or to elaborate on their experiences. it's the only way to filter out this forum so people can begin to learn.

[cherrypraxis]

"By western science I mean the process of unraveling reality by the process of making a hypothesis and then testing the hypothesis in a controlled setting."

this is good. i was not sure before what you meant by "western science" and now that you've defined western science as 'reality'-testing within a controlled setting, we've formulated a thesis from which we can somehow work from. i must point out that, in a parallel context, philosophy is also 'reality'-testing within a controlled setting as philosophers usually work from a single hypothesis and through logic, expound on their thesis.



"Interestingly enough I just watched an interesting show last night on discovery call "Physical Feats." Most of the documentary was centered around amazing "Physical Feats " in Asia and India. For example they had excorcisms, people walking on glass, people walking on nails, people pulling a car with hooks through the back of their skin, they had the monk Shi Yan Ming breaking boards etc."

you saw all these from a documentary? sometimes, even documentarists have their own agendas in presenting their material. don't believe everything you see...
i once saw an hour-long news program about medical malpractice. does this prove that all doctors are ethically unsound and that i shouldn't go to to a physician anymore? obviously, there are diverse doctors both in specialty and skill. my point here, however, is that there are more factors involved than what meets the eye. also, please do not refer to shi yan ming as a monk. many i know here, regardless of whether they are buddist or not, do not respect him as he is reputed to prostite buddhism for his own gains. i am wary of any "good" i hear about him.

"And in the end , it could all be explained by simple freshman physics, psychology or "magic" tricks. My favorite example was these North Indian monks who could supposedly raise their body temperature by meditating. They would go sit out in the mountain snow over night and miraculously never get cold. Well interestingly when the brought one of these monks back to the U.S. to a "controlled" environment he couldn't repeat the phenomena."

hmm...how would you feel if everyone was staring and testing you when you meditate? pressure leads to many things such as "failure" to repeat the desired results. besides, i don't believe that these monks practice their meditation for spectacle. but that is just me...

"So how are these things like balls of floating plasma, lin kong jing etc. any different? There not and they cannot be repeated in a truly controlled environment."

perhaps not and i will repeat my claim that the heisenberg theory explains this phenomenon...



"As to the break down of Western science on the quantum level.
The point here is that it is on the quantum level. We don't live on the quantum level. We live in the atomic world with a whole different set of principles. So basically things that go on in the quantum world can effect the atomic world."

how is it that we do not live in a quantum level? what do you mean by "quantum level"? each particle in us operates in its own sphere and works in harmony with the rest of the particles be it in a "quantum level" or in an "atomic level."


"But things in the atomic world don't necessarily have the reverse causality."

why not?



"Now I've never maintained that Western Science can model and test everything. For example the human body is very complex and all the stuff going on is going to be perfectly explained. However, I will make the statement that whatever is modeled will fit in with basic physics and it has nothing to do with anything quantum."

you admit that 'western science' cannot model and test everything and you even point out that the human body is complex; hence, this logically provides us with the next implication that there is still much unchartered territory with regards to a) the human body b) everything else.

i.e. how can you measure infinity?

light particles are quanta. i find it difficult to believe that, we and everything else on this planet that depend on sunlight to survive, are not affected by "anything quantum."

again, thank you for beginning this great thread...




:)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Since my feet are already scarred from many previous shots.. i'll try again.. My experience, my insight, my intuition.. the tools through which we all ultimately assign values to our observations.. leads me to the following conclusions..

I sense that there is a single Whole conscious and self-aware body of energy that is the source of ALL that is.. we often call it the Tao, God, etc.. "in the beginning".. The Whole had no mirrors, had no other beings with which to compare itself to, in short.. it could not know itself.. in its simple wisdom, knowing only that "I AM", it chose to divide itself into an infinite number of parts (the Big Bang).. so the parts could interact, could experience each other and thereby the Whole (Tao) could know itself.. the greatest act of wisdom, however.. is that there is no right/wrong way for the "parts" to experience (that is a construction of the "parts" themselves).. The Whole was wise enough not to confine the experiences of the "Parts" to only those "desirable".. it knew that it must confront its full potential, both Yin AND Yang.. otherwise it could only know a portion of itself.. the wisdom is embracing the light AND dark sides of existence.. the enlightenment, is to live it..

Fast forward to today... When the Whole divided itself into the "parts" it left within each part the memory of the Whole.. the memory of original bliss, when all things were "at One with themselves", that original memory is the link that binds us in the duality of being both the parts AND the Whole at the same time.. Divine Dichotomy.. Today, we each sense at some level that memory, we search for its meaning through religions, rituals, MA, IMA, gardening, etc.. (you get the picture).. we strive to reunite the parts, to re-form the Whole.. in doing so the Whole will, over ages and eons, become One again.. complete with a new understanding of itself.. having evolved somewhat, the Whole will languish in its newly "evolved" awareness.. until, again another cosmic cycle starts with another "Big Bang"..

Well, i'm sure i just shot myself in the foot again.. dang, i probably just blew it completely off.. but, that's how i get to sleep at night.. i know that it's ALL good, that as long as we are embracing the experiences with sincerity and gusto, we are on the cutting edge of creation, we are the universe defining itself..

How does this apply to IMA?.. Back to basics, it's ALL energy, energy behaving in a "universe" of ways.. as Internal Practicioners, we should be somewhat more aware of the interconnectivity of this energy, Tao, Chi, etc.. (it's just a Name).. In our training we should build no boundaries to confine the possibilities (the Tao certainly doesn't confine itself).. We should recognize that science, church, ritual, in fact.. everything except the experience itself.. are abstractions.. too often, we mistake the measurement or the description for the experience itself.. We can force the experience through countless conceptual patterns (styles, forms, names, etc..).. or, as some Masters have suggested.. use the raw material of the universe, energy, that IS you directly, immediately.. it's a matter of believing, knowing.. Many have gotten there through some complex ritual, and to preserve their efforts, they have etched their ritual in stone, named it, christened it as mystical, and marketed it quite well.. Others, have accepted the unity of ALL things, recognized the simple nature of energy and its interactive dance we call life.. when situations demand, they are the ones that reach back to basics, use the energy (chi) with amazing results.. They have reached beyond most people's ability to grasp conceptually, and so.. they are pelted with the stones of prejudice, scoffed, and made mockery of.. (but, i sense they are mildly amused, not offended)..

What i am suggesting is that we each set our own boundaries by the beliefs we choose to hold as truths.. that to evolve in IMA, or any other aspect of Life, set aside prejudice, set aside disbelief, give the universe (Tao, Chi, whatever) a chance to express itself through you.. THAT is the magic.. and it has no limits other than the ones we place upon it..

Well.. by now, i figure i've just about shot myself in both feet and done some major damage to my credibility.. but, that's just who I AM.. be well, all..