TaeKwon Doh!

[koycymru]

Hey, I'm new to taekwon do and during my searches for information on it I've found that a lot of people have a pretty low opinion of it. What's up?

I've heard the sport (WTF style) vs combat arguments, but with a lot of macho overtones. Hopefully the level-headed people here will give me some words of wisdom on the matter. The master I train with gives us a good deal of cross training in Hapkido, but, as an olympian, he's very focused on the sparring and sport of TKD.

PS: I'm more interested in TKD as a sport, but the martial art and self defense aspect fascinates me...otherwise I wouldn't be posting.

[MA fanatic]

I started out training in Kung Fu. At the time I trained 6 days a week, 2 hours a day at least. Later when my school relocated, I decided to look into other martial arts and started training from a man who was 6th in Ji Do Kwan TKD (taught WTF style and was the coach for IL. State Team), 5th dan in Hapkido, 2nd Dan in Judo (his father was a coach at the Udo College in Soul), and had an impressive boxing record. I trained with that man for over 7 years. In his 12 years of teaching, he only gave out 6 black belts (all of whom, besides me who joined the school with some experienced have been with him for that long). After he relocated to NC, I started attending numerous seminars in search of another art. Found myself training in Muay Thai and shoot boxing for a few years. Now train in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Here is the answer to your question. TKD Olympic sparring is not enough by any means to defend yourself on the street. You are only studying one range of fighting (kicking range). There are four ranges. You are also developing one attribute (kicks). There are four (strikes, throws, joint manipulation, and strangulation/choking). Enjoy the sport aspect of the sport, but when it comes to street self defense, once you miss with you kick, you're done for. I have seen TKD guys beat Kung Fu guys and vice versa in competitions. On the street, neither has all the answers. I would say Kung Fu (assuming your instructor is legit) is better suited for that. If you want some complete fighting systems check out www.russianmartialart.com or look into shoot boxing, Jeet Kune Do, Combat Sambo. Most important look into open minded teachers.

MA fanatic

[Budokan]

There are some good TKD dojangs out there, but you have to really look to find 'em. Overall the style has become commercialized and sportive so it can appeal to children--which happen to be its main draw. Don't believe me? Take a look at the Yellow Page ads for the TKD places near you. They have become little more than baby-sitters for a couple of hours while the parents go out and blow Juniors college tuition at the gambling boats.

It's not a bad style, but as already mentioned only one aspect nowadays (the sportive kicking) is focused on when in reality there's a whole gamut of techniques in traditional TKD.

[shaolinboxer]

As Budokan has mentioned, there are so many TKD schools that it is hard to sort through them all.

Have you taken a look at www.taekwon.net?

Traditional TKD is very similar to traditional karate.

I have a close friend who has practiced olympic style for a long time (he's a 2nd dan) and is now studying more hapkido.

One of the big differences in sport kicking vs "traditional" kicking is hip placement and knee placement.

For example...a sport roundhouse need to be wicked fast to score, so the tend to come up in front from the knee and turn over from the hip very late (making them really hard to beat, stop, or counter). A combat round house (traditional) tend to open the hip a bit earlier. This does slow down the kick by increasing the distance traveled, but it can increase the severity of the blow. It depend on the goal of the attack.

[MA fanatic]

TKD is one of the most political martial arts there is. The bad thing, is that the martial side, was either lost, or turned into the sport side. The good thing is, its also an art that is regulated by strict governing bodies. So, if you want to know if your instructor is a nobody claiming to be a well knows master, you could check on him through either WTF, ITF or Korean Kido organization. Regarding self defense, I have yet to see a TKD fighter practice any realistic self defense. I have a 2nd dan in WTF (Olympic Style TKD) and a 1st dan in Hapkido (my instructor had a 6th dan in TKD, 5th in Hapkido, and 2nd in Judo, was also a 5 time Korean TKD national champion). Most TKD masters have some hapkido background. Over all, its more of a sport than combat art. Beside the Olympic style TKD (keep in mind that Olympic WTF style TKD though not designed for the street, produces some incredible athletes who train to kick with something called 'trembling shock'), there are numerous other organizations. The second biggest is ITF. The rest I think are fly by not federations I wouldn't come near.

MA fanatic

[dre]

KOY , I can't count the similarities between us! I was also a Fencer looking for a non-weapons MA to go into. And I , too , went to TKD. I , also used fencing footwork to kick ass in TKD slap-fighting.

I can't tell you how much TKD ISN'T based in reality, or tell you what a fake most TKD is until you try something else.

I ended up doing 7*Praying Mantis Kf privately with a master that lives in my area. It's so much more practical and realistic.

If you have a Savate school in your area , I recomend you go to it. Savate is a French MA based , on Fencing! JKD also has a heavy Fencing influcene. Dump TKD (one fencer to another - do it - you won't regret it) and get something different.

If you can come back here and list what's available to you.

[koycymru]

Hey dre, thanks for the reply and some good pointers.

This area only has two martial arts schools, but both of them are apparently very good.

One school is mostly all JKD and muay thai. They seem to be very American-y in style.

http://www.scmaa.com


The TKD school I attend is WTF affiliated and very very sport oriented. Self defense is taught, but not heavily stressed as far as I've seen. Also taught there are aiki-jujutsu and tai chi, and I don't know much about AJJ....something i'll ask on the main kung fu forum.

[ewallace]

koy, if you want to actually learn to defend yourself go with the JKD school. Although I prefer traditional Jun Fan/JKD, it will give you some decent fighting skills in a short amount of time.

[koycymru]

I don't really need help in defending myself...

[ewallace]

That should have read "if you want to be a better fighter". TKD won't get you there IMO.

[Mr Nunchaku]

Tae kwon do, AS IT IS TAUGHT IN MANY PLACES, has problems, but let us not generalize every school by saying things that we don't know are true.

Tae kwon do as a traditional martial art. The similarities to traditional TKD and shotokan are so great that when the first TKD schools were around they were called Korean Karate schools. Forgetting the sport side, which is NOT taught in every TKD school, TKD has much to offer in the way of self defense including integration of basic hap ki do. Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting down the Olympic style sparring, but you must know that that is heavily focused on the sport side of martial arts.

[dre]

Koy : I'd probably go for the JKD school , even if it is very american-y. It's still better than s[ort TKD, whose stances will eventually skrew up your Fencing. . . (like we need something else that will hurt our knees)

[Dark Knight]

"TKD has much to offer in the way of self defense including integration of basic hap ki do. "

If TKD has a lot to offer how come it has to incorporate other styles to offer something?

[Mr Nunchaku]

I'm not sure how you don't understand this.

First of all, who said tae kwon do must incorporate other arts to offer something? If you take pure tae kwon do you will be practicing a striking art which includes holds and take downs.

TKD focuses very heavily on striking, in being so it is incomplete. Because of this, the Korean art of hap ki do is integrated with it much the same way several styles of kung fu are taught together making for more balanced training. In many schools grappling is practiced as well. There is also weapon training in many TKD schools. So, if you take TKD, from a good school mind you, you will find that it has much to offer from striking to grappling to joint locks and take downs and weapons training. Sorry if I was unclear before.

[omegapoint]

I have had the chance to train in the US and Asia with many karateka and other "marticians". I met an awesome TKD cat in the Philippines in the early to mid-80s who was very, very good in sport and self protection. He did know how to wrestle and lifted weights, but his TKD looked a lot like good karate ("oxymoron" or at least a rarity). With the exception of that one guy though I can't say that I've been overly impressed by what TKD has produced (recently, at least).

During the Vietnam War my current sensei worked and trained alongside many ROK soldiers (S. Korean) that practiced a style of fighting that looked remarkably similar to the Shorin Ryu he was learning and teaching. He often comments that they were some of the best "karateka" that he has ever seen. That method of training is probably extinct, and you'd be real lucky to find someone that understands the original intent of TKD.

All that aside you have to remember that TKD was the result of the founders' training in Japanese Shotokan during the 2nd WW, and many of the techniques and forms were identical to what he had learned as a Japanese soldier. Nowadays it is a sportified version of school-boy karate. I don't know what that says exactly, but knowing TKD is better than knowing nothing at all.

[Mr Nunchaku]

I respect your opinion, but I still don't believe you (anyone) should judge the entire art, as it is taught today, by generalizing based on some bad schools. I completely agree that there are too many sell out schools that "teach" only for the money. However, there are still good schools and good instructors just like there are good kung fu schools and instructors.

You might not be overly impressed by what TKD you have seen, but I assure you there are enough TKD masters and their students who I believe would surprise you. You say that the training your sensei saw is probably extinct and that one would be lucky to find someone who understands the original intent of TKD. This is what I meant when I said you can't judge an entire art when you don't really know enough about it. There are good instructors and there are definitely good TKD schools. Finally you say that TKD is just sportified. This is one statement I know is not true (not completely anyway). Read my first post in this topic, but here I will talk more about it. There is Olympic style tae kwon do, which is very sportified. An example would be the typical WTF school. That is fine if you like sports, but don't assume that is the extent of all the TKD schools. Many many TKD schools are not sportified. Take mine for example. When we spar, we do not keep a score or see who wins. We just spar and learn from our instructors how to use TKD in sparring for the same reason one would spar in any martial art. There are many schools like this, and that I know is a fact due to my own experiences.

[MA fanatic]

The trouble with TKD, is that its a very political art. Actually, looking back at it's origins, it was founded for political reasons. The TKD forms were originally low level versions of Japanese Karate forms. TKD masters generally don't know the meaning of them. As for self defense, that all depends on the teacher you get. I studied TKD for 7 years. My instructor was a 5 time Korean national TKD champion (full contact rules) wiht a rank of 6th degree. He also held a 5 degree black belt in Hapkido, was a champion of Soul Korea in boxing, and held a second degree black belt in Judo (his father was actually a Judo / Udo coach at the Korean Udo College). In his 12 years of teaching, the guy only passed on 6 black belts. All of them, except myself, had been with him for all 12 years (I was an exception becuase I had several years of Kung Fu prior to joining his school). So not all TKD schools are bad, and some TKD masters can certainly walk the walk. Also, to put down Olympic style fighting because it only teaches kicks is wrong. It's a sport. Just like boxers only punch. But, here's a clincher. Because boxers only punch, their punching skills overcompensate for someone who has a wealth of martial arts knowledge. WTF TKD guys only kick, but they do it well, and they kick with more power than any Kung Fu, or Karate guy (only other guys I have seen kick harder are Muay Thai boxers). I have seen Kung Fu guys lose to TKD guys simply because they underestimated the speed and power of TKD kicks. Olympic TKD guys fight full contact, and fight for three rounds. They don't score unless their kick displaces you (called trembling shock). So when they kick, they have authority behind the kick. They also can hit you from any angle, moving in any direction and even hit yo with a spin kick to the jaw (my favorite move) from an open clinch. If you fight a well trained Olympic TKd guy, keep your hands up, or he'll knock you out.
MA fanatic

[SLC]

"The TKD forms were originally low level versions of Japanese Karate forms."

By the same token, Japanese karate forms were a "one off" of Okinawan forms.... introduced to the Japanese with debatable amounts of true technical candor. ;)

But then the Okinawan styles were derived originally from Chinese arts.

This is my understanding.

Judging TKD's art, by bad TKD schools, is like judging Rolex watches by something you by from Vito on the street corner. It has absolutely NO RELATIONSHIP to the real thing. Rolex watches are not bad because Vito sells cheap bootleg copies.

I think the biggest problem with TKD today is that there seems to be so many maggot schools feeding off of that art. This is further confused by being a very popular sport. This makes it most challenging for a self defense oriented person to find the right place in TKD.

[MA fanatic]

CLS, I agree with you about the forms. Japanese don't have that same depth of understanding kata as the okinawans. And, I'm sure Okinawans missed some interpretations when studying the Chinese forms. This was not my point. Korean TKD masters have received forms which were watered down three times over. As for self defense, there are too many McDojos. Students are receiving black belts in 2 years. Some even in less amount of time. Self defense is not taught. The good competitive schools often mislead consumers stating that they teach self defense. They don't. Teaching a middle age man how to throw jump spin kicks is not self defense. Its stealing money.
MA fanatic

[rogue]

Which forms are you talking about? Which kwan of TKD? In your opinion what is missing from TKDs forms?

[MA fanatic]

It is very complicated to get into the history of forms. OK, I'll do it very quickly. I'm not going to touch on the Chinese forms except to say that they have been instrumental in creating Okinawa-te. That name finally changed in Karate. Okinawan practiced forms to hide the hidden pressure point application of techniques. The standard blocks one practices today (rising block, in block, down block, etc.) were actually strikes along the meridians. What is now taught as hand retractions to simulate more force in the punch or block, were in the past taught is either a joint lock, set up meridian strike, and or mapping out on your body where to strike the apponent on his. There techniques were well hidden and considered deadly. The "one punch one kill" theory didn't come about from the force of the punch or kick, it had to do with pressure point manipulations. (BTW, tai chi forms are the same way...originally designed to hide dim mak points.) When Gichin Funakoshi traveled to Japan in 1922 to teach Okinawan karate, he purposefully changed all the kata. He basically taught the Japanese strikes as blocks. He taught them stances which were pretty much useless and never explained the true meaning of Okinawan forms. Later those forms were passed onto the Koreans during Japans occupation. Actually, masters like the one who created Tang Soo Do actually admited later that they learned forms from Japanese books on kata. So the Korean versian of kata (Poomse, Hyung, etc.) were even more watered down than the japanese kata. If you attend 99% of the TKD schools (as good as they are competitively), the teachers will not be able to explain the forms any deeper than block/punch/step/kick. Actually, most masters will openly tell you that they fail to see the reason for practicing forms other than to make a sport look like an art. My master, though an accomplished fighter and who held a masters rank in Hapkido as well as TKD, was blown away when he began researching the hidden meaning of Okinawan kata and Tai Chi forms.
MA fanatic

[MA fanatic]

In my humble opinion, here is what is missing in TKD.
1) Grappling
2) Effective knowledge of hold escapes
3) Punching / Clinching / Ground Fighting range
4) Knowledge of joint manipulation / Throws / Chokes
5) Proper form interpretations (actual techniques in Poose or Hyungs which have some effective meaning).
6) A strict ranking system (in most TKD schools one becomes a black belt in 2 years)
7) TKD has to many federations, associations, and branches, most masters don't know its history and each organization claims the others are terrible. I have met members from Universal TKD Federation making fun of World TKD Federation for how WTF guys spar, while they themselves beleive in NO CANTACT FULL CONTACT fighting (claiming that their techniques are too dangerous to even touch eachother with). We have ITF (International TKD Federation) guys saying that WTF sucks because they don't allow punching to the face. WTF guys say that though ITF guys allow face punching, they are not allowed to draw blood, ITF guys don't fight full contact and are pulled aside after each point scored. There are other overning bodies for TKD as well. Yet, all fail to see that with the exception of a few knowledgeable masters, most schools are Mcdojos marketing a watered down system to little kids and adults who don't want to devote too much time training.

Personally, I was lucky with my TKD instructor. Most are not. I have seen 8 year olds with black belts running around and adult black belts who couldn't defend themselves if their life dependent on it. The few hard core schools that exist do a great job. There are also schools which are honest about teaching an Olympic sport and openly state that they don't focus on self defense. Those schools generally have very good fighters.

MA fanatic

[wu_de36]

I would be careful of people who teach TKD and Hapkido.

A LOT of times, this means that they teach TKD and some low-level HoSinSul they've picked up along the way. 5 joint locks, maybe a throw or two... Osote Gari, Seio Nage, etc.

Anyone who says they do both, ask to see their HKD certification. See who they trained with, etc.

People justify this by saying that Hapkido is just a generic term for Chin Na. Don't buy into this.

Of course, if you are at a school that truly does both, you'll learn quite a bit.

[Asia]

I skimmed this thread and figure I would add my few since. My first formal art (not the wrestling around with papa) was TKD. I learned at Osan AFB in Korea. For awhile it was the only art I knew the reason I started taking it was I was getting picked on quite abit. I fought quite a bit and the more I fought the better I got. The reason is because experience goes a long way. I have branched off and done other arts. Not because TKD was lacking but because I found several that fit me as well. I still used TKD in my fighting method and (blowing my own horn) have become a VERY proficeint fighter. The effectiveness of the art has to deal with the person more than technique.

I won't go into much TKD history. If you don't know that TKD was shotokan in disquise got find out in Cho's on words. Also the fact the the first hyungs were the same as shotokan kata.

[MA fanatic]

Asia,
I agree with you. Have to say that Cho's TKD forms were even more watered down than the forms Funakoshi gave to the Japanese. Funakoshi later admitted to misinforming the Japanese about what the Kata he taught was really designed for because there was a history of tension between Okinawa and Japan. I can only imagine the version of forms Cho taught. Well, I don't have to imagine, I studied them. I also believe that an art is only as good as it's practioner.

Hapkido and TKD. Unfortunately there are many schools claiming to teach tkd and hapkido for self defense. Unfortunately very few of those masters have qualifications to teach hapkido (usually just teach 2 joint lock techniques for every type of grab, and maybe a couple of throws). Hapkido is a rather complete system (including weapons, ground attacks..though limited in ground fighting, numerous joint manipulations, stand up choking/strangulations, a multitude of kicks and punches, as well as weapons defenses. Many hapkido masters train the Korean millitary and police. Even in the US, hapkido is an art frequently taught to millitary personelle. Actually, Hapkido is in no way a low level version of Chi Na. I studied Chi Na and Wing Chun for 4 years. I studied Hapkido for 7. Trust me, Hapkido is very deep not only in fighting applications, but in meditation, KI development, pressure point and anatomy knowledge. I would say, hapkido is as deep and powerful as Chi Na, if not even more complete. Do, however ask the master of TKD to show Hapkido certification. The two arts are very different and the master would have to train in different schools. My instructor at the time spent 17 years studying Hapkido, while studying and competing in TKD. He had certifications from the Korean Kido association as a 6th dan in TKD, 2nd dan in Udo, and 5th in Hapkido. Always check credentials.
MA fanatic

[Crow1981]

I used to do ITF TaeKwondo years ago as a young teenager. That was my first and only formal (by that I mean having to join an organisation) training I've ever heard.

Currently, I'm training informally with a group of friends with diverse and varied martial art backgrounds. One has a black belt in judo, another a black belt in yoshinkan aikido, another boxes , another a 2nd dan black belt in WTF Taekwondo, and a few other well trained people.

I know the curriculum for both ITF and WTF Taekwondo (to 1st dan belt and beyond) quite well from reading lots of TaeKwondo books as well as from a friend. I knew **** from attending class. Unorganised, useless classes. Learnt more about TaeKwondo from my own than attending classes.

I mean, seriously, I don't mean to put Taekwondo down, but training in this gives a false sense of security. I don't want to type too much becasue of my slow typing speed, but I do need to get a few questions of my chest.

What's with learning the forms/patterns, step sparring, stances, rigid punches, hard blocks and impractical (not all though) kicks?

I asked my friend about this and he says they help with balance etc. Couldn't the time be better spent doing real stuff. I mean I'm guessing even if all the things I mentioned were completely missing from TKD Training, the practioners can still turn out to be good or even better fighters. Maybe it has something to do 'theory of power', but come on?

A few things IMO should be changed for TKD Training. Excuse me if I sound ignorant.

Take away the rigid stances. No real need for them. Learn a couple of relaxed, natural stances.

Teach good footwork.

Take away the rigid punches. Teach proper punches. Include palm strikes, backhand and elbows.

More to come later.

[koycymru]

Good thread, thanks!

[rogue]

OmegaPoint wrote:
"During the Vietnam War my current sensei worked and trained alongside many ROK soldiers (S. Korean) that practiced a style of fighting that looked remarkably similar to the Shorin Ryu he was learning and teaching. He often comments that they were some of the best "karateka" that he has ever seen. That method of training is probably extinct, and you'd be real lucky to find someone that understands the original intent of TKD."

I've heard the same thing about TKD from Vietnam vets. Also the kwan in Vietnam avoided much of the Korean nationalist BS that took over TKD, so you can find versions of TKD that still remain true to it's origins. Also being in a warzone helped keep the edge. My schools lineage goes back to those kwan in Vietnam and looks more like shotokan during kata, but with light fast footwork(not the bouncy stuff) and hard quick strikes during sparring. Don't know if it looks like Shorin (I doubt it does) but it sure doesn't look like any style of TKD I've ever seen either.

[Liokault]

Haveing read how poor TKD is on lots of posts I feel a need to tell you what I saw this sunday at a Sanshou contest.

A friend of mine who has been training in Tai Chi with my club for about a year and who previously trained in TKD was put against a Kung Fu guy with similar experience....... The result was the Kung Fu guy on his back twice in about 15 seconds from round kicks to the head that he never saw coming then dumped on his back from a nice take down then kicked down again. At this point the fight was stoped under the 3 knock down rule. Almost every one who was watching the fight thought that it should have been stoped after the first blow as the kung fu guy just couldnt defend his self.

My point hear is that my friend is a very good TDK guy who used his TKD to beat a Kung Fu guy (hard to say how good he was as the only movement he made was to fall over 4 times) in a full contact arena. No art is worthless its all about how you train and what you train for.

[Dark Knight]

"My point hear is that my friend is a very good TDK guy who used his TKD to beat a Kung Fu guy (hard to say how good he was as the only movement he made was to fall over 4 times) in a full contact arena. No art is worthless its all about how you train and what you train for."

From your post on this guy its safe to say that he had other skills than TKD. So was it TKD skills that allowed him to win or was it a cross training knowledge that he gained.

people bad mouth TKD because it is a limited art. But like any art, if you have training in the other areas of fighting your skills will improve your fighting ability.

TKD will benifit your fighting skills, but dont limit yourself on knowledge. And like you pointed out, its how you train and what you train for that makes the difference.

[Merryprankster]

MA Fanatic--

FINALLY--somebody else who believes that the OLYMPIC TKD rules will improve the level of TKD.

Just as you said--a boxer is a dangerous opponent... why are we discounting TKDer's who are TRYING to knock each other out also?

my 2 centavos...

[fa_jing]

So I read that the Shotokan style was combined with an indigenous Korean foot-fighting art, as well as some northern chinese kicks. I remember from my days studying TKD that the most distinctive feature of the system was the training methods, all the straight legged stretch/exercise kicks, the wall kicks, etc. And TKD players favor a full pivot and chamber for their kicks. Is there actually anything that's not included in Karate, even if it's with a different emphasis? Also, besides the inside/outside crescent kicks, I don't see too much relation between Korean and Chinese-style kicking, so I tend to think it passed through Karate and possible the indigenous foot art.

-FJ

[Good, better, Me]

There are lots of beautiful women in taekwondo :p
Anyways I practise it, and love it. Not the selfdefence so much, but the flying kicks etc (which don't have much to do with self defence or street fighting anyways). Taekwondo is a good sport, and it can be a good martial art. I train for the sport for now. I'm not trying to archieve a black belt, train my mind or be the ultimate warrior. I just want to do tricks :D
That's just my opinion, and that's the reason why I train taekwondo.

Did that make any sense? Hmmm, I can't see any point for this post. haha.

[scotty1]

"The result was the Kung Fu guy on his back twice in about 15 seconds from round kicks to the head that he never saw coming then dumped on his back from a nice take down then kicked down again"

Excluding the takedown, I would say it was the TKD skills (knockout kicks) that won the guy this match. The takedown came third in a series of 4 successful attacks, so the guy had already been knocked down twice by roundkicks to the head.

I went along to a TKD class once, and the instructor was very heavy on the joint locks.

[yu shan]

How old is tkd?

[yu shan]

end of thread...

[dre]

My experience was just the Opposite.

When I started to train in Mantis , I started to drop people in my TKD class very quickly. They just couldn't handle the punches from that close in.

[MA fanatic]

How old is TKD? Relatively new. The term TKD was coined in the 50s. The Korean martial arts, however, go back further. Some can be traced to the Japanese occupation of Korea. Others go back centuries.

TKD and self defense: That would depend on the school you train in. Keep in mind, TKD is very political. There are several governing bodies. Giggest being WTF (world TKD federation) and ITF (International TKD Federation). WTF guys fight by Olympic rules (3 rounds, full contact, no punching to face, kicking to head full power, KO wins, kicks to body have to be delivered with trembling shock...sending your apponent back). ITF rules are basically based on a point system. Full power kicks and punches are forbidden. No rounds are fought, but light punching to the head are alloud. KO your apponent will get you disqualified for accessive contact. As for self defense, one just has to ask the master instructor what his background is. Most Korean instructors have had mixed training in Hapkido and/or Judo. Just make sure you don't sign up for a very athletically oriented program where you're only drilled tournament techniques, if your goal is self defense. Instructors vary in experience. I studied Hapkido and TKD for 7 years with a guy who stressed full contact sparring (Olympic WTF style, and bare knuckle similar to kyokushinkai karate style sparring with leg kicks permitted). I have seen other schools who teach literally 3 self defense techniques per belt rank, teach only WTF sparring, and handout black belts in 2 years. Because there are many TKD schools, many teach nonesense.

Funny TKD story. There is an organization Universal TKD Federation where individuals don't spar with any contact at all. Sparring is done with 6 feet apart between apponents. Techniques are poor at best. Yet, many members believe that TKD techniques are just too dangerous to spar with. My friend and I were once confronted by one UTF member who insisted that we were puching wrong because we stood in a boxing stance and kept our chins low. "You can't distribute ki the right way this way." My friend challenged the guy to a light sparring match (nothing serious), the guy refused out of fear of hurting my friend (who has a fairly decent full contact record in Olympic TKD and kickboxing). The UTF guy proceeded to make comments about the lack of skill my friend had. Finally, my budy says, "Ok, lets spar and don't worry about hurting me." So this guy agrees. He looked frightened, and rightfully so. He got tapped (literally tapped...my wife kicks harder when we play around) in the stomach by a round kick and collapsed on the floor. He got up and said, "see how deadly TKD kicks are. That is why you shouldn't spar with them." LOL LOL LOL

MA fanatic

[rogue]

Good one MAF, I'll keep a lookout for them. Kyokushinkai was influential on several kwan, Mas was Korean after all. Sadly you don't see that kind of TKD much anymore.

[Le nOObi]

Originally posted by fa_jing
So I read that the Shotokan style was combined with an indigenous Korean foot-fighting art, as well as some northern chinese kicks. I remember from my days studying TKD that the most distinctive feature of the system was the training methods, all the straight legged stretch/exercise kicks, the wall kicks, etc. And TKD players favor a full pivot and chamber for their kicks. Is there actually anything that's not included in Karate, even if it's with a different emphasis? Also, besides the inside/outside crescent kicks, I don't see too much relation between Korean and Chinese-style kicking, so I tend to think it passed through Karate and possible the indigenous foot art.

-FJ

Do you mean northern chinese styles or southern styles kicking because there is a gigantic difference! I think northern styles have similiar kicking to TKD.

[scotty1]

"Take away the rigid stances. No real need for them. Learn a couple of relaxed, natural stances.

Teach good footwork.

Take away the rigid punches. Teach proper punches. Include palm strikes, backhand and elbows. "

Turn it into Kungfu.

:)

[Mr Nunchaku]

Actually, when we spar, we use the same stances but indeed more relaxed and natural. The punches are not rigid and are proper. We relax our arms and throw out fast jabs and tense at the last moment, and you can't add palm strikes, backhands or elbows whent the art is already loaded with them as well as other hand techniques such as knife and ridge hands and knuckle punches (when certain knuckles are extended).

[Boffo]

Here I am, a genuine WTF Tae Kwon Do guy. You know, that evil Olympic style. Here is my say on the subject of 'Tae Kwon Doh'.

About myself, I did Muay Thai and Kali and Wing Chun years ago. I moved to a different town and couldn't find a decent instructor. So I let myself get lazy and fat. In my thirties I decided to get in shape. Since I no longer felt a need to be a 'tough guy', I thought a purely aesthetic or sport style would be fun. Judo wasn't available at that time, the local kung fu schools were overpriced and full of idiots, and a recommended Tae Kwon Do school was minutes from my house and work. The rest is history.

From what I can tell, Tae Kwon Do 'enjoys' the same sort of organization problems as Shotokan Karate. Lots of organizations, of which the WTF and ITFare the largest (and the WTF now dwarfs the ITF). The WTF grew in size thanks to their process of purposefully turning Tae Kwon Do into an Olympic sport. The WTF succeeded in gaining the support of the South Korean government by removing all Japanese elements and references to Japanese history, and by distancing itself from General Choi, the somewhat controversial guy who originally coined the name Tae Kwon Do. While some feel this action by the Koreans has removed a level of integrity from Tae Kwon Do, some also feel that the post-war inability of the Japanese to even try to make amends for the brutal occupation of Korea (and China and Vietnam and Burma etc) more than justifies this forced distance.

While I can understand the Korean resentment, I find the denial of the Japanese root of Tae Kwon Do to be rather silly and self-defeating.

Anyway, the smaller organizations or independant schools usually call themselves 'Traditional Tae Kwon Do' or 'Military Tae Kwon Do', and are apparently very similiar to Shotokan Karate. They are generally snooty to the rest of Tae Kwon Do, to each other, and to anyone else. From what I've seen they are as good or bad in technique and attitude as any other martial arts group I've seen.

Tae Kwon Do is basically directly descendant from Shotokan Karate, and is often called 'watered down Shotokan' by Shotokan practitioners. Shotokan, of course, is often called watered down Okinawan Karate by Okinawan stylists. And I've heard Chinese stylists say that Okinawan martial arts are just watered down Kung Fu. Of course, I've heard of TKD fighters beating Shotokan fighters and Shotokan fighters beating Okinawan stylists and Okinawan stylists beating Kung Fu stylists. And vice-versa. Everyone has their stories about victories and stuff. Who cares... lets move on.

Before the advent of sport (WTF) Tae Kwon Do, kicks were taught at all heights, but now they are taught at waist height or higher. Tae Kwon Do has a lot of leaping kicks, but in sparring you won't see any of them except for jump back kicks.

At the decent competition level, WTF Tae Kwon Do really breaks down to four techniques. Round kick, side kick, back kick, and jump back kick comprise 90% of what you will see. The rules are basically full contact tag, in that you have to demonstrate a body shifting strike to your opponent. This helps deal with favoritism issues that apparently are huge issues in Karate and ITF TKD and Universal TKD circles. Etiquette is a big deal, and entire teams can and are disqualified by the bad behavior or poor sportsmanship of a single member. I think this occurred in the 2000 Olympics.

Tae Kwon Do is a Sport!
I'll be the first to recognize that WTF Tae Kwon Do is a sport. It ain't a martial art, but rather a martial sport like judo or fencing. For self-defense it is quite lacking for all sorts of reasons that would require a dissertation on my part. But I don't do TKD to be a tough guy, but because getting to do full contact sparring without worrying about being hurt too badly or hurting someone else is fun.

What is wrong with TKD being a martial sport?
So long as it isn'tpromoted as self-defense, what is the big beef? No one complains about Judo being sport Jiu-Jitsu. Or fencing being a sport version of European small sword duelling? Or Kendo being a sport version of Kenjitsu? Or muay thai being the sport version of ler drit?

For the record, I think those that promote sport martial arts as self-defense should be shot and stuffed on a wall. Anytime someone (especially women) sees my sport style techniques and pretty flying kicks and asks for self-defense lessons, I direct them to a nearby jiu-jitsu class. Its the responsible thing to do.

I respect those who hold onto the old ways. I really do. The forms and techniques and stances are beautiful to watch. I also respect those who do the mixed-martial-arts stuff. I've thought of giving it a try, not to be a tough guy, but to experience it just once in my life. I just think that in the huge world we live in there is room for all of us, so long as we remain honest and open about our respective interests and styles.

[Merryprankster]

Ah yes--the next time I drop an assailant on his head from my sportive wrestling background, I'll be sure to remember it has no place in self-defence.

I don't know who wrote that sportive art bit but they're fools.

[Boffo]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Ah yes--the next time I drop an assailant on his head from my sportive wrestling background, I'll be sure to remember it has no place in self-defence.

Okay okay! You've made your point! Sport martial arts are a great way of training for real fighting because they get you used to real physical contact. On the receiving end, getting used to taking a punch or kick or being slammed to the ground is very useful. On the giving end, checking out the validity of large portions of technique can be useful too.

The problem with WTF TKD (and even grappling sports like Judo and Wrestling) being used for self-defense is that it relies on the following things:

1. That you have time to stretch beforehand (well, this applies only to WTF TKD and other high kicking sports that don't train for low kicking).

2. A referee will break up clinches and penalize for throws, sweeps, and trips. Kicks below the waist are illegal and punches don't score. (the grappling version of this item is no gouging or biting is allowed).

3. The fighting is occuring on a padded surface that cushions steps and falls.

4. At the end of the the round, the fighting stops for a bit and you can go take a breather and get a drink.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Boffo
The problem with WTF TKD (and even grappling sports like Judo and Wrestling) being used for self-defense is that it relies on the following things:

1. That you have time to stretch beforehand (well, this applies only to WTF TKD and other high kicking sports that don't train for low kicking).

2. A referee will break up clinches and penalize for throws, sweeps, and trips. Kicks below the waist are illegal and punches don't score. (the grappling version of this item is no gouging or biting is allowed).

3. The fighting is occuring on a padded surface that cushions steps and falls.

4. At the end of the the round, the fighting stops for a bit and you can go take a breather and get a drink.

this post just screams of "I've never been in competition in my life!"

[Boffo]

Originally posted by chingei
this post just screams of "I've never been in competition in my life!"

Why?

Because thats what I experience when I go to WTF TKD competitions?

Because those rules makes it safe enough for my 35 year old desk jockey body to compete without fear of injury?

I don't understand the meaning of what you just said. Could you explain yourself please?

[chingei]

Originally posted by Boffo


Why?

Because thats what I experience when I go to WTF TKD competitions?

Because those rules makes it safe enough for my 35 year old desk jockey body to compete without fear of injury?

I don't understand the meaning of what you just said. Could you explain yourself please?

sure!

it means your post seems to indicate that you are a person who hasn't placed himself in the position of testing himself at an advanced level. 'safe' 'injure' 'fear' etc, seem to be key terms for you. this indicates that you have not identified goals that supercede these issues.

[Boffo]

Originally posted by chingei
it means your post seems to indicate that you are a person who hasn't placed himself in the position of testing himself at an advanced level. 'safe' 'injure' 'fear' etc, seem to be key terms for you. this indicates that you have not identified goals that supercede these issues.

Gotcha. For the record, I'm not a tough guy. The WTF TKD tournaments I have been to involve full contact, but thats while wearing the pads and stuff.

Years ago I did Muay Thai. We did full-contact stuff once a week. I remember the bumps and bruises. I was also a lot younger, not afraid of injury, and recovered quickly. We also did kali and wing chun at that place, and loved that stuff too. I spent much of my freetime working out, and it was a great time for me. My martial arts skills got impressive. It was my life. I even got into a couple of fights and did pretty well.

Then I moved for various reasons and couldn't find a decent training place, so got lazy and fat.

Tens years later I have a wife and kids. And a rather important job that makes me work long hours. A few years ago I was diagnosed with diabeties, which is what really prompted me to start working out again after I put on the pounds. Thanks to my job, I can't train as much as I want to. My goal in the martial arts is to stay fit and be able to explore a bit of my competitive side.

My goal in life now is to do my job well and take care of my family. Martial arts takes second place to that side of my life. Other things now supersede my desire to increase the capabilities of my body. Sometimes that frustrates me, but for the most part, I like the life I have chosen.

I like the WTF TKD competitions these days because I can go onto the mat, kick a bit, and maybe win. Odds are I won't get hurt, and on the other side my impulses to hurt other people have lessened as I've gotten older. Yep. I've mellowed.

Safety and injury are things I am certainly concerned about. Last year I broke my thumb really badly thanks to a freak accident in my martial arts school. The injury interfered in my work to a great degree. It threatened the livelyhood of my family.

Fear? I have to admit that once in my life I want to go and compete in a MMA competition. I want to conquer the fear of facing someone under conditions like that. It is my Mount Everest. It is my hope that I can get myself in the position where I take the time to get ready for such an event. I've even figured out the particulars of who to train with and what sort of extra physical training I would do.

Does admitting my fear make me weak? Nah. It just makes me honest.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Boffo



Does admitting my fear make me weak? Nah. It just makes me honest.

sounds like you got your **** together

would that everyone had as reasonable a perspective on things

:)

[rogue]

Boffo, who'd you study with? His initials wouldn't be SC would they?

[dbulmer]

Boffo,
Have a lot of respect for what you were saying. I started Wing Chun about a year ago at the age of 39.

For 20 years plus before I had done nothing - I was a couch potato and yeah as you get older priorities change and injuries take longer to heal!

What surprises me is that you chose TKD - this is not a bash of TKD - it's just that my understanding that it's very demanding physically so I was wondering what steps you took/are taking for fitness? I am aware that you were looking for a good teacher - quite right too.

I was sold WC on the basis of: The lazy man's Kung Fu!
I still joke with my teacher on that as I have never worked as hard in my life ! I say that today as I write with aching muscles and wooden legs! Not for nothing is there a Wooden dummy in WC :) !

(What put me off a lot of MA in my 20s was the 40 minute warm up which left me the beginner in no state to learn anything plus I am lazy and work was the priority then - WC initially is easy physically but gets harder the more you do but no dreaded 40 minute warmups.)

best wishes and it's nice to see such an honest post!

[Boffo]

Originally posted by rogue
Boffo, who'd you study with? His initials wouldn't be SC would they?

SC? Nope. For kali and muay thai (and the odd bit of wing chun) it would be PF. For TKD it would be MHK.

[Boffo]

Originally posted by chingei


sounds like you got your **** together

would that everyone had as reasonable a perspective on things

:)

Thanks chingei!

[Boffo]

Originally posted by dbulmer
What surprises me is that you chose TKD - this is not a bash of TKD - it's just that my understanding that it's very demanding physically so I was wondering what steps you took/are taking for fitness? I am aware that you were looking for a good teacher - quite right too.

I chose TKD because after watching my son take the class, it looked like fun. My diabetes meant I had to get in shape or risk having to take shots, and the adult class looked very rigorous. I had been coaching my kid's soccer team and unlike most coaches of 6-year olds I did some running. So going in I wasn't completely out of shape, just almost out of shape.

The TKD was very hard at first. My school includes a lot of PT, and TKD students from other schools are amazed at how tough the warmups are. But I just kept at it. After 6 months I could go through a class without skipping a set. Once I started training for tournaments I started doing windsprints every morning before I got ready for work.

The TKD teachers at my school are about average, although the headmaster is incredible for a man his age. He also advocates that we must surpass him, or he has failed, which I really like. Yet he makes that so impossible with his technique, physical strength, and endurance. I only go to the classes he teaches if I can help it. His class is repetition of the basic forms and techniques and a small set of combinations. Again and again and again. In this respect it is very much like the muay thai stuff I did ages ago. Anyway, this means my basic skills in TKD are solid, as are the other students who try to come to his particular class.

But he isn't perfect. He hates to go around correcting minutia of incorrect technique unless there is an unusually small class. He likes to do it himself, then have you observe and do it at the same time as he. Because of this we black-belts in his class make a point of teaching the lower-belts before and after class, which he doesn't mind. This bugs me at times, for all sorts of reasons.

In anycase, these days my legs are strong as iron. I can leap and jump and run up stairs all day if I want. When you are a desk jockey, that is important to be able to do! LOL! I was doing weight-lifting to get my upperbody in good shape, but work has prevented me from getting to the YMCA for months now and that muslce has all just wasted away. I think I need a new job...


I was sold WC on the basis of: The lazy man's Kung Fu!
I still joke with my teacher on that as I have never worked as hard in my life ! I say that today as I write with aching muscles and wooden legs! Not for nothing is there a Wooden dummy in WC :) !

I think I can do about the first half of the first wing chun form. That is all I remember! Wing Chun was neat, but I always had trouble with it. I was okay at that first form, but the lop sau and pak sau (or whatever that is called) was stuff I always got confused on. Probably because it was a thinking man's style! Ha ha! :)

[dbulmer]

A soccer fan eeeeeerm - football get it right !!!!! :eek: :D
Anyway, no doubt you are watching the World Cup!!

I have always been curious about TKD but you have done nothing to dispel my fear of the warmup - blast , drat and double drat. I'll stick to my WC!

What did you do for leg work? I am in a desk bound job too so I sympathise!

[Boffo]

Originally posted by dbulmer
What did you do for leg work? I am in a desk bound job too so I sympathise!

I'm no expert but...

1.5 to 2 hours of high kicks several times a week will make your legs strong. Plus we do 50-80 leg squats at the end.

Low stances and moving around in such will also do it too. I wish we would do those in TKD since they look so nice and build up muscles as well.

Doing weight-lifting and focusing on your legs helps. As does running and bicycling. Heck, simple long walks will work miracles as well. Stop driving so much and walk to places!

Cheers!

p.s. World Cup? On American television? I wish! :(

[dbulmer]

Thanks - I do tend to walk a bit more nowadays and practice a lot of leg stretching which has improved my flexibility a lot but the strength is not there yet - more WC is probably the answer for strenghtening (stance etc).

Pity you can't see the World Cup - The roller coaster that is the England football team is one of life's great journey's :)

[NorthernMantis]

I've hear tae kwon do comes hwarang do. Has any one had any experience with this art?

[rogue]

I believe that there was a golden age of martial arts development in Korea a while back. But early TKD is a direct branch of Shotokan with the possible addition of Tae kyon techniques.

Try this (http://www.hwarang.org/Contemporary.html)

and this link (http://www.hwarang.org/Personal.html)
Not an accurate lineage chart (http://www.allmartialarts.com/KIXCO/History/history/map.htm)

[Boffo]

Tae Kwon Do is essentially Koreanized Shotokan Karate. Early TKD practitioners did Shotokan forms and this is well documented. Later on new forms were invented or 'rediscovered', the stances generally elevated, and nationalistic elements added. Some of the kicks were changed to match Korean preferences. I cannot see how anyone could link modern TKD with the fighting arts of a military order dating back to the 6th to 8th century, as this is hard to prove and accurately document. I think the Koreans should be proud of what they did with Shotokan Karate, and should be honest about its origins.

[yu shan]

Sorry a bit off the thread, Push up England... Great ball today!

World Cup coverage in US=S*cks! Enjoy everyone else...

[chingei]

Originally posted by yu shan


World Cup coverage in US=S*cks! ...


'cause nobody gives a rat's ass about that mind-numbingly boring waste of time.

[Liokault]

'cause nobody gives a rat's ass about that mind-numbingly boring waste of time.


Unlike your world series right? Now thats a true world wide sport.

We play base ball in the UK to. Infact we invented it. We call it rounders and its only played by school girls.

While im on it basket ball is very similar to net ball......also only played by school girls? Odd that.

[Boffo]

Originally posted by Liokault
Unlike your world series right? Now thats a true world wide sport.

Ouch. That hurts! :D


We play base ball in the UK to. Infact we invented it. We call it rounders and its only played by school girls.

I'm an American who thinks baseball is a girlie sport. So I find this really funny!


While im on it basket ball is very similar to net ball......also only played by school girls? Odd that.

There were lots of games that were similiar to basketball before it was 'invented'.

I will give you English credit for inventing soccer. Oops, I mean 'football'.

[greendragon]

TKD was invented by the Korean army in 1949 as a form of calisthenics. Hapkido is the art! (korean kung fu), usually not taught to americans who would rather be involved in sports. TKD kicks are weak, jumping off the ground, spinning on toes, why would you even try to kick someone in the head anyway but for the stupid point system ? no short range techniques, keep your elbows down for christ sakes! How many jocks get fifty bucks a month to teach kids how to count to ten in Korean? TKD gives TMA a bad name.

[Boffo]

Originally posted by greendragon
TKD was invented by the Korean army in 1949 as a form of calisthenics. Hapkido is the art! (korean kung fu), usually not taught to americans who would rather be involved in sports. TKD kicks are weak, jumping off the ground, spinning on toes, why would you even try to kick someone in the head anyway but for the stupid point system ? no short range techniques, keep your elbows down for christ sakes! How many jocks get fifty bucks a month to teach kids how to count to ten in Korean? TKD gives TMA a bad name.

Isn't Hapkido a mix of Japanese Aikido and various Korean striking styles? Well, thats what my Hapkido friend says.

As for your issues with TKD:

1. For power, it depends on the person doing the technique, just like in any martial arts style. I've seen lousy Kung Fu stylists and I've seen extremely powerful TKD people, and vice versa. It is the person and teacher, not the style!

2. TKD isn't a TMA. As far as I know it has never claimed to be such. Some use it for self-defense and preach it as a self-defense art, but most I know practice and teach it as a sport. Judo is a sport. Fencing is a sport. Wrestling is a sport. Yet you never hear people complain about those styles being unrealistic.

What gives TMA a bad name is the arrogance of the practitioner.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Liokault



Unlike your world series right? Now thats a true world wide sport.

We play base ball in the UK to. Infact we invented it. We call it rounders and its only played by school girls.

While im on it basket ball is very similar to net ball......also only played by school girls? Odd that.

is there a mandatory course on this in Uk schools? I've never met a slave to the british monarchy who hadn't prepared just such a speech. Kinda sad folks would spend so much time thinking about this stuff. Say what you will about Americans, but most have the sense to realize that soccer just plain sucks and leave it at that. good luck with the inferiority complex...

(with apologies to the non-****head UKers)

[Liokault]

chingei



is there a mandatory course on this in Uk schools?

Yup its called history.....we have to learn some as we have a history.

Also I agree that football (your soccer) sucks but I can not help but feel that you americans do not like it only because your no good at it!!
And what ever way you look at it it is a true world wide sport.
How many countries play "american football"? (we call it rugby over here and its only plays by gay upper class school boys). How many countries really compete at base ball? Now how many play and compete at football?.......Most of the world.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Liokault

Yup its called history.....we have to learn some as we have a history.


yes you do. and you might want to keep it to yourself. its a mess.

...other than the glorious Malvinas War

[chingei]

Originally posted by Liokault
(we call it rugby over here and its only plays by gay upper class school boys). .

you sure do seem to know a lot about school children and gays. but, hey, whatever turns you on.

certainly explains the fascination with soccer though.

[rogue]

"TKD was invented by the Korean army in 1949 as a form of calisthenics."

TKD wasn't invented, unless the Koreans invented Shotokan. Originally it was a fighting art and not a sport.

"Hapkido is the art! (korean kung fu), usually not taught to americans who would rather be involved in sports."

Hapkido says it came from Aikijitsu and Korean kicking techniques, where do you get the kung fu connection?

"TKD kicks are weak, jumping off the ground, spinning on toes, why would you even try to kick someone in the head anyway but for the stupid point system?"

TKD, Hwarang Do, Kuk Sool and Hapkido use many of the same kicks. Have you ever been kicked in the head by a WTF fighter?

"no short range techniques, keep your elbows down for christ sakes!"
Many of us do.

"How many jocks get fifty bucks a month to teach kids how to count to ten in Korean?"
Too many

"TKD gives TMA a bad name."
And you give clueless people a bad name.

[dbulmer]

Chingei,Liokault

Just a point of order !

There are 2 forms of rugby - the most widespread and popular is Rugby Union and the second is called Rugby League.

The second form came about because working class men were not allowed to receive payment for missing day shifts in coal mines. In those days if you missed a shift in a mine you were not paid so some of the blokes wanted money to cover expenses and loss of earnings.

I prefer the second form as it's not played by gay upper class folk (LIOKAULT :) )