Best Martial Art

[MA fanatic]

I keep hearing/reading people ask this same question. The
truth is, hardly any style prepares you for all situations.
I have studied several martial arts systems for the last 16 years.
Not one was complete. To defeat a man with empty hands one
must be skilled in: Striking, Throwing, Joint Manipulation and Strangulation & Choking (two are different). An artist must
also be skilled in: Kicking Range, Punching Range, Trapping and/or
Clinching Range, and Ground Fighting Ranges of combat. One must train realistically, not in a vacuum. Throwing techniques in the air for years is like learning to swim in the shower. There are few arts which address all these fighting attributes and fight ranges. In most cases, one has to seek supplemental training from professionals skilled in other areas of combat (be it seeing a Brazilian Jiujitsu stylist for ground fighting, Kung Fu stylist for stand up, Muay Thai kickboxer for effiency/power kicking and conditioning, etc. etc.). To be killed martial artists we must know what we don't know. Not all karate styles are "bad." Some Karateka can give a Kung Fu fighter a run for his money. I have seen it happen time and time again.
One is responsible for his or her own training. If an instructor says to his/her that his system is all one needs, the potential student should be carefull. There are complete systems out there, but most don't come even close.

MA fanatic

[Budokan]

Tae bo is a complete system.

Complete bull$hit, but complete.

[chen zhen]

"To be killed martial artists we must know what we do'nt know"
sorry. just had to quote it.:)

[shaolinboxer]

I believe that the black and white is the rare and complete cookie style.

[MA fanatic]

Good point Chen. I think many martial artists forget what they don't know, and fall prey to people who can exploit these weakness.

MA fanatic

[chen zhen]

Uhh.. MA fanatic, you do know that I quoted a typing mistake in your topic, right?!
(s)killed

[MA fanatic]

Dude, how could I not figure it out. I responded sarcastically.
Thanks for your help. lol

MA fanatic

[Ish]

MA Fanatic in your origional post you say "I have studied several martial arts systems for the last 16 years. Not one was complete" Mabe the trouble is that in your 16 years of mixed training you will not of completed any of the styles you were doing. (This is just a gues so correct me if im wrong) This could mean that the styles were complete and you just didn't learn everything you could have. I personaly believe that if you stick with a style (if you have a good teacher) you will learn how to defend yourself against anything. At the end of the day people only have 2 amrs and 2 legs so we are all limited in the way that we can fight.

[MA fanatic]

Ish: I have posted my martial arts background on another thread. Ok here goes. I studied Kung Fu for 4 years (trained hard during that time, 6 days a week two hours a day). I was obsessed at that time. I started with Wing Chun. My instructor was more of a drill sergeant and also utilized a lot of Chin Na in hi training. There was another Chinese man teaching a style called Hung Gar. I trained with him on and off, but concentrated on Wing Tsun (chung). When my school relocated, I wanted to get a better understanding of kicking. I searched hard, and finally found another drill sergeant Korean guy. He was a 6th degree in TKD (five time Korean national champion), 5th dan in Hapkido (Korean art focusing on joint manipulations), 2nd dan in Kodokan Judo (his father was actually a coach for the Korean Olympic team in the Korean Udo college), and was a champion of Soul Korea in boxing. Funny thing, when I met this Korean master, he was about to enroll in a praying mantis school a few miles away. The guy gave only 6 black belts in his 12 years of teaching in the state. All black belts stuck wiht him for 12 years. I stayed with him for 7 years before he moved with his family out of state. I tested for black belt under him shortly before he moved. Later I just wondered from school to school trying to find good instruction. I trained from a Kyoshu jitsu guy for some time (I think it was close to a year) but finally found a school teaching Muay Thai (instructors under Chai Serisute), JKD (instructors under Dan Inosanto and Larry Hartsell), and Brazilian JJ (machodo). I trained at that school for over 3 years. Then the school merged with a gym too far for me to commute so I found Caique (he is a world Brazilian JJ champion and old teacher at the Gracie academy). So now I'm with him.

What I meant by no art being complete, is that no art gives you all dementions of fighting. My Wing Chun could easily be countered with strong Thai leg kicks and wrestling take downs. AS a matter of fact, I have seen many wing chun guys beaten by wrestlers (William Cheung was even taken to the ground by a wrestler). My TKD kicks (though extremely quick....and I had full contact sparring experience) would not stop a take down or a strong leg kick. The hapkido joint locks look great, but against a resisting oppoent, if you dont secure his body right, he will escape. I think all martial artists should cross train. This is only my opinion. But, I just dont believe that one art (usually created by one person) has the asnwers to all situations. I can become an expert TKD kicker, but on a day like today (its icy outside), I'm helpless. A Kung Fu master skilled in glamorous animal styles can be easily taken down to the ground and choked unconsious (I have seen this happen, actually have it on tape). A BJJ guy may be skilled on the ground, but against multiple apponents, he has to stand up. And, all fights go to the ground, so even an expert kick boxer can fall prey to take down and pummeled on the ground.

What style do you train in? I suggest, go on a journey to discovery. Step into a full contact ring once and see how your techniques fair against another style in full contact, no rules competition (there are many guys who would love to oblige just for experience). Don't let your teacher brainwash you into thinking that his style is invincible. It isn't. I have heard one guy tell me that his teacher would only fight to the death. That's bull ****. That is a copout and an excuse. It hurts to find out that an art you have been studying and teaching wont be able to stop a classic shoot take down or a simple combination from an accomplished boxer. I had my eyes opened. BTW, my views are shared by people like Bruce Lee, Dan Inosanto, Gichin Funakoshi, Rickson Gracie, and many other martial arts masters.

MA fanatic

[shaolinboxer]

The last time I read an interview with Dan Inosanto, he was studying yoga.

Learning to fight is very important, but I believe it has it's limits. Everyone loses. I think the Gracies proved that no matter how much experience you have, how much strength you have, how much heart you have, or how good your technical ability is you can still lose.

That is why I think it is is important to experience a high level of competition, and then move on. You need to know what it is like to fight full contact, but you need not fight full contact all of the time. We always hear of the great full contact fighters, but we don't hear of the thousands who are injured so severely they can no longer train or those who, under a string of perpetual losses, give up hope and quit.

Competition and full contact "testing" are valuable, but very high risk. Do it, know it, move on. (Unless you want to be a professional fighter of course.)

[Ish]

Im currently training in wing chun but i've only been doing it for a couple of years so i think it would be bad for me to crosstrain at the moment. I think i will continue with wing chun for at least a few more years before i think about trying any other styles. I know that at the moment i wouldn't do too well against some arts like more ground based styles. I do however believe that when i have trained for longer i should be able to effectively defend against any punch or kick and hopefully be able to finish a fight before the person gets a chance to take me to the ground

[Repulsive Monkey]

I hope I don't to sound too insulting but everything you've said in that long diatribe of yours actually weakens your defence somewhat. That long list of the few arts you've studied and the wonderful acolades that all your teachers have acquired a) showed as you say that you have no complete art; b) more so it seems that you haven't been able to stick around long enough to complete the art so as to experience it at its fruition. I can't quite seem to see why your garrolous stand in such a biased and imbalanced attitude saying that your 16 years of experience has led you to know the truth as far as what art is so and art isn't therefore we must all run out and study fragments of as many as possible. I know this sounds insulting and I didn't really want to be but, you've seemed to forgotten that all most 90 % of people come on this forum and accept the fact that what they say is merely opinion, some people do have the facts to back it up, but a lot don't. You make it sound like what you are saying is factual. Im sorry but thats just so laughable. You have seen one person on tape fall to another and therefore you feel justified in declaring that that persons art is insufficient!!! Maybe his art wasn't and just the application of his skill was, thereore the art remains in tact. Everyone does it at some point, but there really is no real need for people to come on here and pontificate to this level, espcially when the hypocrosises are obvious and transparent.

[Budokan]

Good point, Repulsive Monkey. I think you've nailed it down exactly right.

[MA fanatic]

Guys:
I'm not sure you guys are reading my initial thread. I have always stated that what I write is merely my own opinion. I was not insulted at all up until the point where someone called me a hypicrit. I think four years is enough to figure out what Wing Chun is all about. Certainly, 7 years is enough as well. I believe it was Bruce Lee who stated to William Cheung (who was taken down at will by a mediocre grappler being a grandmaster himself in one art...had he cross trained this could have been avoided) in their conversation (both men trained from Yip Man) that "I will beat you because all your life you've been doing the same thing while I cross trained and have seen the other truths." I don't claim to know the absolute truth. But, what you may seem as jumping around from school to school, I see as cross training and searching for answers. Tell me, how am I any worse than a master of Praying Mantis who's two ribs I cracked with a Thai kick? The guy had trained for 20 years in one style. Tell me, why am I so bad if I took down a Karate 3rd dan with 15 years experience in one art with a basic wrestling shoot? Can I do it again? Depends on my opponent. Some karate guys and praying mantis masters will kill me in a minute. I know my limmitations and i know what I dont know. And, for those who say that I site isolated incidents, trust me, there are many who will back me up, and I have seen many more followers of a single style be crushed by someone who has cross trained. There is nothing wrong with having one art as the main focus of life's long work, and at the same time cross training in other systems. Why is that bad? Because a master who may be teaching an outdated art convinced you that his style is all you need? You guys need to wake up if you believe that. I love kung fu. I will most likely train in it again. I think the only difference between me and some other people is that I have the courage to admit what I don't know and what my art lacks instead of hiding behind a master or a system. In my opinion, no art is complete. No master has all the answers. It is up to the student to fill in the missing holes.

MA fanatic

[MA fanatic]

For the record, I posted my martial arts background because someone asked. I changed schools because schools tend to relocate and masters do move. I do attend seminars of any martial arts instructor who comes into town just to meet a famous MA master, to learn new techniques and to explore new theories on combat.

MA fanatic

[Repulsive Monkey]

Im sorry but again you've done the same in weakening your defence really. I will not put down cross training, but it is a substitute for geuinge long term training in many repsectable and TRADITIONAL (as opposed to your decision to use the word "outdated") arts. I suspect that you never eally saw the real truths in these gaps you've been filling in, because I know for a fact that no Master would see fir to pass on probably a partial transmission after having been there for for just 4 years.

Definition of the word fanatic = person filled with abnormal enthusiasm.

I hope you receive the humour in this and don't take it too seriously, but you very biased in your rhetoric, surely you must see that only a mere handful will take you seriously??

[MA fanatic]

Repulsive Monkey: I think you're someone who has a great sense of humor. You of all people are commenting on my screen name? lol lol OK so I'm a MA fanatic. I love the arts. Love reading about them, learning about them, seeing practitioners of all arts practice, etc. etc. I have traveled all over, but the most beautiful thing in this world is seeing a dojo, dojang, kwoon, gym, what ever you want to call a martial arts training hall filled with people working out hard. I realize that certain aspects of a martial art will not be taught to me. I left my Kung Fu school not of my own will. But, it was the best thing I did. My master would tell me that Wing Chun is a complete art, but when I stepped into a ring with someone skilled in another art, I quickly realized what I lacked. At the time I lacked strong powerful kicks. Once I spend seven years of hard training in perfecting my kicks (at the time I also competed), I realized that my take down skills were next to none. I also had no ground fighting experience. Where do you go to learn to fight on the ground? Trust me Wing Chun isn't going to provide you with any answers. And, against a skilled grappler, you're going to do the ground even if you're a Wing Chun grandmaster. So you go to people who can fill in that gap. People who can trully teach you the mechanics of the clinch, the physics behind throws and the science behind submission holds. Does that mean Wing Chun is bad? NO. Does it mean Hapkido and/or Tae Kwon Do is useless? NO. But, they lack in certain aspects of combat. There are historical reasons why Chinese fight a certain way, Japanese fight another way, and for example Pencak Silat fighters of Indonesia fight a third way. It is foolish to think that any art will prepare you for everything. Who knows more about knife fighting than the Siliat fighters, Escrimadors, and or Russian Spetznaz soldiers? Wing Chun isn't going to teach you anything usefull in that arena. What about a famous Wing Chun guy who spent 25 years in the art, who was taken down in 15 seconds by a skilled Judo player name Igor Zinoviev in Extreme Fighting Championship 2. Its on video, go out and rent it. About people agreeing with me, I think since the day of Bruce Lee, more and more people (even famous masters like Dan Inosanto) see things my way. WE're living in the gold age of martial arts. The only reason your master is convinced that his art is so great and obviously has you convinced as well is because in his day, he wasn't exposed to other arts.

MA fanatic

[Ish]

I dissagree with so much of that last post im not even going to bother telling you what. Im glad you feel the way you train is the best way for you because thats the only person you should be training for and mabe after ive done another few years training in wing chun i'll suddenly realise how many holes do need filling.

Probly not tho

[Repulsive Monkey]

It's nice to hear that one of the holes you managed to fill up was telepathy, as now it seems you can tell me just what my Master has and has not studied in the past. Unfortunately you assume wrongly in that instance, he studied under others too but decided when he met a decent Master to reside with him, and from there he never lost a match especially when it was a real fight i.e. not on a video in a make shift ring but in real life situations and in the practices halls of others schools of other arts, but of course respectfully.

Please carry on though...what can you tell me now...

[MA fanatic]

Repulsive Monkey: Do you take everything you read seriously? I was talking about "your master" hypothetically. I don't know you or your master. I don't even know which style you study. The matches I talk about are also challenge matches, no rules competitions, street fights, Vale Tudo competitions, etc. etc. I'm glad your master is unbeatable. Perhaps he is. But, like him, I went from school to school to find answers. I have found instructors such as Vladimir Vasiliev, Dan Inosanto, Mikhael Rybko, Paul Vunak, Marko Lala, etc. who cover all ranges of combat as well as teach all attributes necessary to defeating a man bare handed (strikes, joint manipulations, strangulation/choking, and throws). There are people who can make one art work for them. Great. I personally cannot. I also took on weight lifting several years back for more power. To compensate I also studied Yoga to keep my my stretch and power in kicks.

You guys cant be serious when you argue that certain arts are just better at a particular aspect of combat than other arts. There is nothing wrong with a master, or practitioner of one style to seek suplemental training in the other. William Cheung is a grandmaster of Wing Chun. He was taken down at will by a guy who had college wrestling background. None of his sticky hands, wooden dummy training, and trapping helped him one bit. People attending the seminar had to pull the grappler off a grandmaster. Now, what if Cheung studied brazilian jiujitsu for one year (even if its on the side)? He would have submitted or controlled his attacker to a position where he could utilize Wing Chun.

My original thread said nothing about me being against any art. I also realize that I am merely stating my own opinion. Those that say I haven't studied enough of one art may be correct. But, I say many dont even have enough martial arts experience in other arts to judge me. When push comes to shove, its not the person who was doing the same kata for 20 years and searching for deep meaning in its movements who is going to win. It is the individual who is conditioned physically and well cross trained.

All arts have weaknesses. And, trust me, it will not take long for someone who cross trained to figure them out. I was just like you at one point and loved knowing that my master is all knowing and has the answer to every situation. It wasn't easy realizing that masters are all human, and don't know everything. Martial arts is a personal journey. I chose one path, you chose another.

BTW, what art do you train in. I answered questions about my experience, why not share yours?

MA fanatic

[MA fanatic]

Ish:
Which part of my last post do you disagree with? I'm just curious.
I realize people may share diferent opinions. I love a healthy debate as much as the next guy. I don't take this posting personally. I trust you guys have experience in various arts or chinese systems. So, why not share? If you found a master or art that covers all ranges of combat and all hand to hand attributes, please share.

MA fanatic

[Kempo Guy]

MA Fanatic,

I know where you're coming from...
For better or worse, I've studied many arts as well and not necessarily because I wanted to but generally because of relocation. However, I did train for a decent period of time (over 5 years) in a couple of arts along with the odds and ends I studied.

Cross-training can be an enlightening experience once you have developed a base art to spread out from.

(Anything I say from here on out is just my opinion based on personal experience.)
Unfortunately for me, I felt I'd become more confused by studying the many styles I have. The reason behind this I feel is the principles of the different styles I have practiced did not necessarily jive with what my core art was at the time. I can honestly say my foundation got weaker as I trained more... if that makes any sense.

Since then I have gotten back on track by sticking with a couple of teachers that teach similar styles but with a slightly different flavor (emphasis). The main thing is that the principles of power generation and keeping proper alignments are the same between the different styles I now study. One of my teachers has only trained in one school (with his father) and is very skilled. The other has high rankings in a couple of arts but teach only one type of art. I feel that I am a much more complete fighter now than ever due to the re-focus in my training, not because I am learning different styles but focusing on one type of art.

Sorry for the rambling. I don't think I have a coherent sentence left... It's been a long day at the office, now I'm off to go work out! :D

Later,
KG

[MA fanatic]

Kempo: My thoughts are exactly. If people read my initial thread, it had nothing to do with cross training. It was basically stating that there is not perfect art. I began the thread because too many people were talking about one art being better than another. I had studied under one teacher for 4 years, another for 7, one for 1 year (he had a heart attack and closed the school), and now been training in Muay Thai and grappling for 4 years. On and off I do take seminars from masters who come to town. I have taken seminars from Dillman, Inosanto, Remy Presas, Royce Gracie, Vladimir Vasiliev, etc. They all teach different arts, but it is interesting to attend their seminars for several reasons. First of all, I can see men who are legends in their own time. Second, I get a perspective on other arts. Why not? I think people worry when someone mentions cross training only because they realize that their teacher does not know everything.

For people like Repulsive Monkey and Ish, I suggest, go to a near by Muay Thai school or BJJ school, and see how your skills measure up. I'm not suggesting challenging or being disrespectfull. Just, enroll for a month, and see how it really feels to be kicked full force in the legs when trying to use your Wing Chun trapping. Or, see how difficult it really is to stand with a grappler determined to take you down. MOst don't even get a chance to land a single punch before being taken to the mat.

I am not against one pursueing one art for many years. But, for goodness sake, cross train to see what you're missing. Just work in the knowledge you learn from cross training into the art you are studying long term. BTW, most masters (from Pan Qinfu, to Mas Oyama, to the Gracies, to Gichin Funakoshi) have cross trained in several arts.

MA fanatic

[Repulsive Monkey]

Please fanatic, I was being ironic when I mentioned the telepathy bit, I know that you don't know my Master. Really!!!. I do take what you are saying, which is all your own experience and all your own opinion, and I do have respect for some of the stuff you say. I too desire you examine other arts (by the way I'm predominantly an internalist Taiji is my forte, I have studied a little Bagua too, but not enough to say I have a base plate in the subject. I have also studied Judo for a number of years but circumstances and dislike of where the school was heading brought an end to it) but have realised that the teachers and arts that I have seen haven't (and here goes the magic word fanatic) YET shown me anything that betters or surpases the teacher and art that I currently study. My teacher is not invincible, I do not have his complete art within my grasp, may never have who knows. However your insistance about cross training being the way forward I simply have to disagree with. I'm happy if it works for you, thats good but try and force onto others with the way you come across about other arts being insufficient. Again you weaken your defence again with style of generalisation and again your comments have done little else but support my stance. I accept that people choose to stay with one art or train across the scope of others, fair enough I say. However so far, (so here I do leave this statement open ended just to show you im not too closed in my experiences) I have yet to see anyone else or another style to cause me to detract. I am interested in investigating some other styles but only mainly out of curiosity.

Happy days anyway fanatic.

[MA fanatic]

Repulsive Monkey,
My original thread actually had nothing to do with cross training at all. It was a response to the same old question I keep seeing on all forums about which style is better or most complete. I usually don't begin threads, but enjoy reading them. Once in a while, I have an urge to respond. I am surprised however that you, who had cross trained, is argueing with me. What if your Tai Chi instructor all of the sudden tells you, "Monkey, I just want you to know that I have trained in other kung fu styles." Or, "Monkey, I have been taking private classes in Brazilian Jujitsu just to expand my knowledge of grappling." Would you disrespect him? No. Actually, I have enourmous respect for Tai Chi. When I was training in more or less harder Kung Fu systems, I assumed Tai Chi was an art done in community centers and YMCAs by old folks. But still interested in the subject I bought some books (one of them by a guy named Douglas Wong). Anyway, I still didn't think there was anything deadly about it. Finally I met a guy named Mark Saltzman (I may be mispelling his name), who wrote a book intittled Iron & Silk chronicaling his life in China and training under Pan Qinfu. He told me that Tai Chi was quite deadly. A year later I attended a seminar on combat applications of Tai Chi (Dim Mak, push hands, etc. etc.). I was blown away. I can't recall the name of the master, but he hit with such force, speed and accuracy, he was blowing me off my feet. Unfortunately I don't have tai chi schools around here who teach anything more than exercise, so I have to resort to buying books and videos from Montigue. Had I not had an open mind and only believed in my instructors at the time, I would never realize the power another seemingly aerobic type art could have. At this point I am still young and my body can take a good beating, so I'm sticking with Muay Thai and grappling. I continue to attend seminars of other styles and open to any exchange of knowledge. I realize that though I will always enjoy the submission and hard striking arts (mostly Muay Thai and its traditions...it used to be a very combat oriented art before it became a sport), I will eventually have to move into internal systems like Tai Chi. At this point I train hard, and take seminars not because I want to abandone my master instructor and/or school, but because I'm a martial arts junky and enjoy seeing and experiencing other arts.

MA fanatic

[MA fanatic]

Repulsive Monkey: Just wondering if you have ever seen Vladimir Vasiliev or his instructor Mikhael Rybko move. Both teach an ancient slavic art called "Systema" in Russian. The art is based on smooth movements very similar to tai chi. It is however, so explosive when used in a combat situationa, that the Russian Spetz Naz soldiers (Russian spec. op) are training in it. The exercises all resemble tai chi, and the weapons training also resebles tai chi type movements. I attended a seminar done by Vladimir in the IL. area. After seeing how smooth and slow he moves several people have challenged him in the middle of the seminar (I have never seen something like that happen aside from the Gracie seminars where grapplers challenge them to a grappling match). Anyway, the guy became instantly explosive. At one point three guys took him on (two were friends, I'm not sure where the 3rd came from) and he sent them flywing or collapsing. If you believe in the power of soft internam arts, at some point check him out. I had Thai Kickboxer friends who attended his seminar and they left the room being believers in the soft internal styles. www.russianmartialart.com

MA Fanatic

[Kempo Guy]

MAFanatic,
I've seen some techniques from Systema. Very much in line with the principles of the internal arts. Even has some Aiki'esque properties of it.

Some of their take downs are very interesting as well. Very smooth with what seems like little effort exerted when executed.

Another interesting art is ROSS, which is more of a principle based art and includes methods similar to Qi Gong.

Later,
KG

[MA fanatic]

Kempo Guy:
I actually have a lot of Scott Sonnon's videos. He's a great grappler and looks like a good teacher. His Grappling Tool Box, and breathing take helped me a great deal in my grappling game as well as stamina. I have to say, if you're going to go hand to hand, I'd train from Vlad Vasiliev. The arts are similar. Vlad is not an accomplished athlete like Scott, but he's one hell of a tough guy when it comes to hand to hand combat. What's interesting, I have seen V.Vasiliev and his instructor M.Reybko be both hard and soft when fighting. The power these two men generate in their strikes is amazing. Both also utilize what they call 'psychic energy' (similar to qi, chi, ki, etc.). I have seem them drop men without touch and disarm apponents with virtually no contact. When I first heard of this ability I was skeptical and may have even called the guy telling me this a fool. Then I saw this energy manipulation on seminar footage, and was still skeptical. It wasn't until I attended Vlad's seminar that I trully appreciated the art and his skill. For those into internal styles, I suggest a video called Master Of Fighting from www.russianmartialart.com. Best psychic energy footage I have ever seen (and i have seen masters attempt to perform similar feets in Indonesia, and China).
MA fanatic

[Kempo Guy]

MA fanatic,

I'd like to check out the ROSS tapes and some of the Systema tapes sometime. Haven't gotten around to it yet... since it gets a little expensive.

One of my old teachers actually went to one of Vlad's seminars as well and came away very impressed. I'd like to go to one of his seminars sometime...

Have you by any chance been to any of the ROSS seminars? If so, what was it like?

What you are describing as "psychic energy" seems to be a lot like the "aiki" techniques of Daito Ryu as seen especially by the Roppokai and Kodokai groups. When you see these techniques they look fake, as they seem to only flick their wrist. I was very skeptical myself in regards to these types of techniques. However, I've been at the receiving end of these throws (manipulations) and they are definitely for real. Very cool stuff.

You ought to check the tapes by Seigo Okamoto Sensei of the Roppokai. They show these techniques close up and explain some of the principles (although in Japanese).

KG

[MA fanatic]

Kempo Guy:
I have not attended ROSS seminars. Actually, I don't think Ross representatives have been to my neck of the woods. If you're going to check out Systema videos, I'd start with Russian Hand To Hand two tape set. Then, try Russian Ground Fighting two tape set which comes with Psychic energy tape. I own all of Vladimir's tapes including tapes about Russian special forces training and videos only focusing on energy manipulation (those tapes are with Mikhael Rybko, Vladimir's teacher). I'm not sure what happened, but I think there is some sort of bad blood between the Ross people and the Systema people (though I believe the art is essentially very similar). For training purproses, I'd go with Ross (seems like instruction is geared for training, conditioning, and health). For self defense, I'd get Vlad's stuff. Well worth the money. Actually, at his seminars, Vlad sells his tapes at half price. $20 each I paid.

MA fanatic
PS Where do I get the tapes you're talk about in your post?

[Kempo Guy]

MA fanatic,

I also get the impression that there's a feud (so to speak) between Systema and ROSS. Not that it impacts me in any way... :D

Thanks for the suggestions on the tapes. I'll have to get those sometime.

As for the ROSS tapes, I have been checking out their website and their selection of tapes. Seems like what they teach is more principle oriented than Systema, which from their website seems a little more technique oriented? Is this the right assumption?

Personally I only have one of the Roppokai tapes, although I have several tapes on Daito Ryu both instructional and demo tapes. I acquired some of them through bugei.com, and also some from aikidojournal.com.

KG

[MA fanatic]

Kempo: I have the Grapplers Tool Box (3 tape set), and Dehanya tape by ROSS. I have also watched the Shock Ability three tape set which my friend owns. All tapes included specific exercise to be practiced either solo or with partner. All tapes were drill oriented. Scott Sonnon does a remarkable job explaining the mechanics and philosophy behind what he teaches, but the tapes are filled with numerous drills and exercises. Vladimir's tapes actually show numerous techniques, but are very much based in theory. He talks about the theory of Systema strikes, and/or grapplign before he demonstrates techniques. His Knife Defense tape had won awards, but is strictly technique oriented. The psychic energy tapes by Mikhael Rybko are all theory and demonstration. Which ever you go with, you can't miss. If you want to become fit, strong, able to withstand punishment and/or improve grappling game, go with Scott Sonon. For hand to hand combat, weapons defenses, psychic energy theory, and improvised weapons training, go with Vlad. Also, Vlad gives you a strong background into Russian special operations units and shows footage of training. Some good stuff. To be fair, I have seen Vlad in person, and what judging by his size and power (he's much stronger and powerfull looking in person), that guy would be kicking but no matter what art he chose to practice.

MA fanatic

[AmerROSS]

Dear MA Fanatic,
Please do not spread rumors.
If you approached Vladimir or myself personally, you would learn that the "feud" rests no place but in the minds of petty, internet personalities who have more time "surfin' the net' than training hours logged.
RMA has a beautiful heritage and a multi-faceted spectrum. My advice? Explore it all if you're so inclined. I teach my way, Vladimir his.
So refrain from speaking for me or for Vladimir. You do more damage than good.
Train in what is best conducive to your development and learning style. For ultimately, there are as many styles as their are people on the planet.
Fraternal,
Scott Sonnon

[MA fanatic]

Dear Scott,
Actually, I was expressing my confusion about posts which pop up about the two organizations. I'm not going to continue and discuss this topic, but I wasn't the one who began the "rumer" to begin with. As a matter of fact I own material from both organizations and love them all. I think I posted on top my perceptions of the video material I have seen. If my perceptions of the material was wrong, I apologize, because I haven't seen all your instructional videos (I think I mentioned the tittles I own), but at some point hope to do so. If I opened up some chapters from the past I apologize to you and any party involved. I think if you reread by posts you'll see that I am just as confused about rumers floating around on forums and MAchat rooms. I know two organizations are different, but both have been very professional, and helpfull to me and many martial artists I personally know. Both also offer martial artists a new way of thinking about combat, as well as training and conditioning. I apologize if I caused any problems.

I'm not sure if you'll check this post, but I wanted to ask you some questions about your new tape series I keep seeing marketed. I think I'll ask on another forum
MA fanatic

[AmerROSS]

double post

[AmerROSS]

Dear Eugene,
I know you did not "start" the rumors. However, by stating that you "heard or read somewhere" you are spreading them. This is what needs to stop. The person(s) that began the rumors are really... irrelevant now, aren't they? We'll never know the causality of it all (which I presume is the allure of politic's plausible deniability.) And since the 1st causality is impossible to determine, it is the "letting go" of propagating the rumors that each person must do. Please don't spread heresay. Think about it. I (Scott Sonnon) am telling you the rumors are untrue. If you call Vladimir, he'll tell you the same. So, there's no reason to continue the animosity which will remain veiled within the rumors. I'm not saying YOU are hateful. I'm saying the rumors spread hate. Vladimir and I have delt with this for years and would like it to stop.
I know full well the internet personalities and their little anonymous (sorry, pseudononymous) comments online. If you find any, please email me at sonnon@amerross.com, so I can break the cycle directly, as I am doing so here. It's tedious, but necessary.
Enough of this, now.
I find your distinctions between Vladimir and I to be accurate, and not only do I not take offense, but am actually quite flattered by the level of thought you've obviously put into the distinction.
I want to thank you for sharing such an objective and professional explanation to internet folks.
There remains to be a significant amount of whose "kungfu mojo is stronger" in the world. Hopefully, everyone will realize that the Bad Guys are not within the MA community, but without it... and as a result, our defensive fraternity will find solidarity.
I do indeed not check here, but I checked the AmerROSS account's email notification on this thread. Although it's not "my" account, the profile info says it will now be forwarded to me. However, I prefer not to answer questions on other people's forums. I believe it's inappropriate, and comes across as evangelism or self-promotion of sorts. Please feel free to join my forum at www.amerross.com/discus/.
Fraternal,
Scott Sonnon

[AmerROSS]

Come to http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma3forums/thread.cfm?thread_id=296360&messages=1&forum_id=33&ThreadName=Compare%20and%20Contrast%20RMA%20styles

The PERFORMANCE Q&A for an open discussion on various styles of RMA.

[MA fanatic]

Dear Scott:
I will ask you the questions I had about your grappling tapes through the link you left on this thread. I actually looked for a way to write you directly, but for some reason could not find it. Perhaps I was just in a hurry. I go on line twise a day (usually before workouts) and often don't have time to work my way through web sites as closely as I often want. Once again, my apologize for any trouble I may have caused. My above post states everything else.
MA fanatic

[Dark Knight]

When push comes to shove, its not the person who was doing the same kata for 20 years and searching for deep meaning in its movements who is going to win. It is the individual who is conditioned physically and well cross trained. "

I have been in the arts for over 20 years and have to agree. i hold Black Belts in a couple and have indepth information. But no one art is the best.

A comment earlier was that we all have only 2 arms and 2 legs, there are only so many ways to fight. Thats true, but if you do not know them you will have problems.

Frank Shamrock said his greatest asset is his physical conditioning.

over the years I have fought people in many different styles heavy to full contact. If you are not out there getting information and training tips from great fighters you are going to schocked when its time to fight a real fighter.

Just training with techniques designed against a grappler, or Karate guy or Kung Fu guy at the school wont cut it. You need to seek out these people, train hard with them and learn something.

There is a feeling in the MA that you can be a great fighter by training with no contact or no resisting partners. Find out the truth, find a Judo school, or MT school or Sambo or BJJ.

BTW I own Some of Scotts video's, buy them

[MA fanatic]

I have Sonnon's videos on my list for gifts every year for birthdays, anniversarries and holidays. My wife and my relatives order from AmerRoss, or E. Paulson, and/or some other masters instead of buying me anything else. Best gift for a martial artist.

As for cross training, until one tests his art against other artists, he/she simply doesn't know the truth. Many martial artsits live with a myth of some old master having mastered "true combat knowledge." Some believe in the Death Touch. Others believe stories of masters which are merely stories exagerated over time. If stories sound too good to be true, most likely they are. I have talked to masters to can talk about mystic powers and deadly skills of their masters. Yet, no one had yet seen any such feats first hand. Truth is, martial arts can be explained with physics. Truth is, conditioning often means more than technical knowledge. Truth is, the key to mystical martial arts skill is plain old hard work and conditioning. Grapplers beat strikers and classical artists because they always train with full resistance. They fight like they train and train like they fight. I hate to say it, but those who devote their live's studying the thousands of interpretations of a single kata, are merely fooling themselves. No one is denying the existance of numerous hidden techniques in forms. Unfortunately, knowledge of them is useless if the martial artists is not conditioned for fighting.
MA fanatic

[Dark Knight]

"No one is denying the existance of numerous hidden techniques in forms. Unfortunately, knowledge of them is useless if the martial artists is not conditioned for fighting. "

Thats pretty much it. The techniques are good, but if you havent actually gotten out there and put them to work, on a constant basis, they will not work.

You dont have to trainfull contact no protection. But there are training methods and equipment that will allow you to get close enough without severe injury.

[MA fanatic]

In UFC 7 (I believe) a pressure point expert competed. He wore a karate gi, and from what I heard, had knowledge of meridians and pressure points (student of kyoshu). The guy looked pretty solid, but as soon as he clinched with a Jiujitsu stylist named Remko Pardoe, he could not make any pressure point technique work. I could see him trying to set up some meridian KOs, but all failed. The fight ended with Remko taking the pressure point guy to the ground, and choking him out in seconds. Years of study and practicing on stationary apponents was useless. Had he taken as little as 6 months of bjj, he would have been able to escape the position he found himself caught in.
MA fanatic