Choy Li fut concepts vs. Wing Chun concepts?

[Shaolindynasty]

Even though the physical characteristics of these two arts are different are any of their principles and concepts similar?

[Rolling_Hand]

Choy Lee Fut...

http://www.leekoonhungkungfu.com

Wing Chun...

http://www.wingchun.org/text/misc/new.html

[yuanfen]

Re: CLF and WC.... quite different principles of structure and dynamics is involved. I have seen very good CLF- Tat Mau Wong and his late teacher and Doc Fai Wong and I am familar with pretty
good examples of wing chun and have a fairly decent understanding of wing chun principles and their applications.
I respect TCMA so I dont put down other styles reflexively- but I dont waiver in my confidence in wing chun. But wing chun and clf are two entirely different things.Cheers,
Yuanfen
<www.azwingchun.com>

[tomcat]

In my understanding many styles of Wing-Chun are very systematic,in their teachings, strictly adhering to certain principles and Techniques. Not leaving much room to develop alot of self expression of movements and techniqes. Wheras in CLF or Hung-Gar it is just the opposite while having certain concepts and principles,these systems encourage self expression. Just the enormous array of techniqes and movements in these systems allows for two practitioners of the same art to adapt the techniques that work for a particular persons size,speed,strength,etc.
Not that I am Knocking Wing-chun, I believe Wing-chun can be used effectivley in a shorter period of time, and I believe that was the reasoning behind it's conception, to teach revolutionaires to fight in the shortest time possible.
However I think in the long run it is possible to achieve a higher level in the CLF or Hung-Gar.
Then again,some people may respond better to a more sytematic system, but was'nt that what Bruce Lee didn't like about Wing-Chun? And at a certain point he had to rise above the regimention to achieve self expression of his art,or Jeet Kune Do?
I don't mean to offend you Wing-Chun people,my knowledge of your art is somewhat limited,but this is what I've gathered over the years. I also beleive that a high level of martial arts can be achieved from either system,while Hung-Gar works for me Wing Chun may be better for some one else!

[vingtsunstudent]

''I don't mean to offend you Wing-Chun people,my knowledge of your art is somewhat limited''
yep, well that just about somes it up.
fancey writing that long winded response only to finish it with that.
vts

[CanadianBadAss]

"In my understanding many styles of Wing-Chun are very systematic,in their teachings, strictly adhering to certain principles and Techniques. Not leaving much room to develop alot of self expression of movements and techniqes."

Hmmm... At first I thought you were a *****... but it's not completly your fault... I've also seen a few WC schools like that. And I take it by "develop alot of self expression of movements and techniqes" you don't mean to forget the principles and theory behind your art and dance around like a fairy.

The WC I learn teaches a method of movment, useing your body to it's full potential and acheving the maximum amount power in each movment. So i guess there's lots of room for "self expression of movements and techniqes" because once you can apply the WC power, it doesn't matter witch technique you do... I could even learn CLF and make it effective ;)

[Shaolindynasty]

alright guys cool off. I wanted to disscuss any similarities there might be between the two. Not which is better and what lacks from either.

For instance I noticed both talk allot about controlling the other persons root. This si pretty standard in CMA but I was wondering what other similarities there are(physical movement aside).

[CLFNole]

CLF is more of a long range style, however we do have a variety of short range techniques.

Wing Chun is a short range style.

In the past there was a "CLF vs. Wing Chun Rivalary" which was brought in part from the various difference in fighting principals.

So as far as your question goes, they are not very similar. Different fighting theories and power generation principles.

Peace.

[extrajoseph]

There is a Chinese saying, “10,000 fists have one principle”, so on the conceptual level, the principles for fighting between the two arts are much the same, even though the outward expression and the technical emphasis, especially at the beginners level, are very different.

Here are some similarities straight off the top of my head, I am sure there are many more:

1) Maintain balance.
2) Seek your opponent’s weakness and cover up your own.
3) Use softness to overcome hardness when appropriate.
4) Use the straight line to break the circle when the opportunity allows.
5) Every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
6) Generate power from your body mass.
7) Maximise speed and accuracy.
8) Minimise your mistakes.

Nice for a change to get a discussion to look at the similarities rather than the differences between WC and CLF.

JosephX

[Shaolindynasty]

ExtraJoseph- THANKS!!!! at least somebody got what I was trying to say.

One I can think of is it seems both like to use rapid strikes to finish the opponent.

Both are know for a no nonsense approach to combat.

They both are agressive.

[extrajoseph]

Another one I missed out:

9) Avoid using force against force.

[Sow Choy]

ExtraJoseph, very good comparison.

I find there are some similarties between the style also. For instance using one hand to finish the job, similar to fencing. To strike your opponent when they are at a disadvantage, example: To counter your opponent when they are fully extended.

I also agree with joseph about the similarties in using straight lines to counter a curved line or even your opponents straight line attack.

There are even similarties in the sticky hands and our oi leen sao and loi leem sao, found in my lineages Buddha Palm form, and also our 5 wheel fist form.

They both favor simplicity, that's for sure.

Joe

[Shaolindynasty]

Not sure about CLF but what about striking and blocking at the same time?

What about stop hits?

[Fu-Pow]

My own experience is that CLF is good for bridging the gap between yourself and your opponent. Its not so much long range as it is "jump range." Meaning that in a lot of techniques you literally jump into your opponent with your arms swinging.

The effect is quite overpowering. Its kind of like a freight train coming at you.

This is CLF at least at the elementary level. This is how "newbies" spar and I think that this was the idea when CLF was designed for Civil War.

However, at the higher levels you see things become a bit more intricate with Chi Na, pressure point strikes, subtle trips and throws.

My understanding is that at the highest level CLF becomes a "stick and follow" martial art kind of like Taiji but with its own unique style.

Its seems to me that Wing Chun kind of starts at the "stick and follow" level. Its not that Wing Chun is necessarily higher level but it definitely starts with the intention of "sticking and following."

In Wing Chun this simple idea is then practiced over and over again until it is absolutely perfected. This makes it a bit easier to learn.

The advantage is that CLF has a larger repertoire of techniques we can "jump in" and barrage you, grab you and trip you up or follow you around until a opening emerges. We have a lot more to learn, but also a lot more to "master."

This is just my two cents and I in no way represent myself as an authority on either of these arts. Just a student.

[nospam]

Not sure about CLF but what about striking and blocking at the same time?

A very simple concept, just one that takes time to do effectively.

Although if you watch tournaments or most fights, there rarely is blocking going on. It is more of a strike vs strike mentality.

nospam.
:cool:

[GOLDEN ARMOR]

Yes of course CLF blocks & hits together, as i would say most all gung fu styles do. One eg. is the Gwa choy a hanging backfist straight down at a 45 degree angle. When a straight punch is thrown, the CLF player aggressively charges in with his stance & throwing his waist into the attack to gain momentum.(power & speed flowing) Just as his about to march in & throw his waist into the attack he also throws his arm (backfist) in conjunction with his waist & stance. So the backfist is like a unstopable force, the forearm (kiu sau) smashes the attackers arm & continues smashing the opponent in the face with the back of the hand.(knuckes) The CLF player then useing the momentum launches a powerful punch with the rear hand (cheurng naan choy) & then again with the opposite hand with another technique etc... The CLF player is always flowing & useing his waist to coil like a snake & then releasing with great power, always continuous. Though the power generation is different to wing chun, they both overwhelm their opponents with a barrage of hits. CLF mainly uses its waist for power & Wing Chun uses its elbow. This is only from my limited experience in both, i did WC only for a year & now im going on my 10th month of CLF. But im sure in the latter stages they would have many similarities in combat, even earlier, the power generation is just different. Fu Pow is right about marching in aggressively with ur arms swinging, the backfist is done the same, one thing to know is that the arm must be long/extended to connect. The Gwa is just 1 eg. in the latter stages CLF has many short range techniques, my sifu showed me a few & they are very fast & powerful so from ur fist look they will look very different but deep down a lot of the ideas are very similiar. I have heard that the panther mostly always attacks even when blocking, it slides over the opponents arm then hits. Blocking & hitting in unison & CLF has a lot of panther. I would say this panther technique is a little similiar to the Tan sau of Wing Chun.

With the stopping/blocking of hits CLF has a very big range of techs. to choose from & it depends on the situation what to use. All CLF players should condition there arms/bridges & they should be like iron bridges. So just by blocking u will destroy the opponents limbs or u can use a circular defence & use the opponents force against him disrupting his balance & taking his centre then taking advantage. This is similiar to Wing Chun. There is also some blocks that u use ur waist to gain momentum & then strike. As i said b4 this is only from my limited experience & CLF has a very big arsenal of techniques to choose from.

Also i have heard that CLF has sticky hands like Wing Chun, maybe there not the same but i would think that the idea is the same in what their trying to acomplish. Soft/Hard working in unison.(Yin/Yang) Although WC teaches this almost straight away & CLF teaches it in the latter stages.
They are both great MA systems of SHAOLIN.:cool:

[BIU JI]

So can anyone speak of CLF's theory (if any) on controlling the centre line. This seems to be a big focus of WT and other styles eg YKM Pakmei Dragon . Sth Mantis. This to me seems the core of where the principles of the two systems can be similar and/or different.
VT- please don't jump down my throat if I said something inaccurate !!!:D

[yuanfen]

Its seems to me that Wing Chun kind of starts at the "stick and follow" level. Its not that Wing Chun is necessarily higher level but it definitely starts with the intention of "sticking and following."
----------------------------------------------------
Not quite true. Good wing chun can start at any level.
Conceptually, wing chun prepares the person- not a slave to
distance, technique or even sticking (best not to infer dogmatic sticking from elementary perceptions of chi sao).
Many styles appear to be more technique oriented than good wing chun.

[extrajoseph]

CLF also has a centre line theory. Since we tended to fight side on, the imaginary centre line is located not at the front part of the body but along the one side facing our opponent.

By dropping the elbow, using the knee and having the yang hand reaching out and the yin hand held back, we reduce the surface area open to attack considerably. Our opponent has to go around our side on front to attack the weak spots located along the Ren Mai and Du Mai centre line of the body.

JosephX

[BIU JI]

Advantages and disadvantages to every postion ! Side (horse) certainly does reduce the target area but also reduces your striking capability due to the "yin " hand as you put it is further back and has further distance to travel when striking. Though the horse also gives you more distance with the leading (yang) hand.
How much of CLF techniques are side on? What % would you say ?

[vingtsunstudent]

BIU JI
that's it, i'm challenging you
how can you keep posting these lies
i have learnt from 7000 different lineages of wing chun & now i am challenging you in the old ways.
blah blah blah...........................
oh buggar, i forgot i'm not a southern mantis fruity.(sorry to all the real spm people, you know the hagood group-he he)
sorry bud
luv ya, luv ya work
just don't come looking for me because that just wouldn't be fair..... you do know that these days you don't actually stand in front of a man to challenge him don't you, besides that i would hate for anyone to catch me off gaurd in my little pink evening frock.
vts

[extrajoseph]

"How much of CLF techniques are side on? What % would you say?"

Answer: About the same percentage WC techniques are used front on.

I am not sure whether this is relevant to our discussion, but I was told since WC was invented by a woman, modesty required a WC practitioner to avoid the breast and the genital region being touched by a stranger, hence the elaborate precaution along the front centre line of the body.

I was also told by the same WC guy that William Cheung's wife was a CLF student and from her influence he developed a side on approach to WC techniques and told everyone that it was a secret past down by Yip Man to him only.

I realize they are hearsays but they do make interesting gossips, I like to apologize in advance for my transgression.

JosephX

[BIU JI]

Well that's put simply I guess extrajo, thanks anyway !

VT- I like electric blue myself :D

[bean curd]

love this, after all these years this one still comes up hahaha.

WC - CLF same/similair - NO !!

it is the ging and the faht that show the varaition to each style and these two are totally varing. it is true that conceptual ideas are similiar but this is not style, what has been said regarding simularities relates to many styles.

jung ding are also not the same, the ma shows this and the sau and choi reveal this. i would not describe CLF as snake but dragon in yeuh.

CLF does not present the heart, so the ma is required to protect it, WC does not bring this into consideration.

:D

[nospam]

extrajoseph

By dropping the elbow, using the knee and having the yang hand reaching out and the yin hand held back, we reduce the surface area open to attack considerably. Our opponent has to go around our side on front to attack the weak spots located along the Ren Mai and Du Mai centre line of the body.

Well read.

BIU JI

Advantages and disadvantages to every postion ! Side (horse) certainly does reduce the target area but also reduces your striking capability due to the "yin " hand as you put it is further back and has further distance to travel when striking. Though the horse also gives you more distance with the leading (yang) hand.

The Yang is set as such, but need not remain as such. Either hand will yield and/or defy depending on dynamic exchange. By having the yang extended, we're that much closer (and as you say in unison with the stance) to closing the circle.

nospam.
:cool:

[JasBourne]

"Not sure about CLF but what about striking and blocking at the same time?"

WC never actually blocks anything. Rather, we use the opponents energy to generate our strike movement.

"I was told since WC was invented by a woman, modesty required a WC practitioner to avoid the breast and the genital region being touched by a stranger, hence the elaborate precaution along the front centre line of the body."

Umm, no. Centerline principle is about the fact that the majority of major strike targets lie along the centerline, and the excellent body mechanics and economy of movement available from observing the principle. I have no idea where you heard this little "no touchy, bad man!" gem. :p

[Highlander]

Originally posted by JasBourne
"I was told since WC was invented by a woman, modesty required a WC practitioner to avoid the breast and the genital region being touched by a stranger, hence the elaborate precaution along the front centre line of the body."

Umm, no. Centerline principle is about the fact that the majority of major strike targets lie along the centerline, and the excellent body mechanics and economy of movement available from observing the principle. I have no idea where you heard this little "no touchy, bad man!" gem. :p

So your saying that it's O.K. for a stranger to touch your breasts and genital region????? :confused:

[kungfu cowboy]

Only for $$$ (or coupons). That is the goofiest thing I have heard today, and I work at Disneyland (in my mind).

[JasBourne]

C'mon now, Highlander, was that necessary. :rolleyes:

[Serpent]

Of course it wasn't necessary. But it was funny! ;)

[extrajoseph]

Here is another one I heard from the same guy:

WC was practised by many “Hong Shune� (Red Boat) people, who were Chinese opera troupes that travelled from town to town along the rivers of south of China.

They often practised and fought on the deck of a small boat so they have to adopt their peculiar stance to maintain upright while the boat rocked from side to side.

Many of the “Hong Shune� workers were gay guys (all the female parts were played by man) so it was fashionable to adopt a female stance of seemingly protecting the genital region while facing your opponent front on – a kind of Kung Fu tease.

I know this sounds a little bit ridiculous but it makes a good yarn, so please don’t get hot under the collar about it. No insult, attack or sexism of any kind is intended. Feel free to make a joke out of this.

[yuanfen]

extrajoke?

[jon]

I heard Hung Ga just came from the boats as well and has nothing to do with Shaolin. I also heard the reason why the stances are so low is becouse when they practiced on the boats you would need the stabilty but when indoors on the boats the roofs where also low and prevented jumping up and down to much.

Strange how both Hung and Wing Chun 'apparently'only came from the junks and yet they both addapted very different stances to deal with the boats rocking:eek:
I think this seems to be a popular story to discredit one style or anothers origins.
Im pretty sure they would have realised there art was going to have to be useable on land as well as a rocking boat and hence they would not addapt the whole art around that premice.
Still its good way to take the micky.
Ive got 5 years of boat people kung fu so look out:D :rolleyes:

[anton]

Originally posted by jon

Ive got 5 years of boat people kung fu so look out:D :rolleyes:

Oh yeah... well my master was Phillip Rudock, so you better watch your back :D

[sunkuen]

CLF won't help get the taste out of your mouth.hahaha

[EternalSpring]

Well, I've been slowly reading through the the Southern Kung Fu section here, and saw this thread on page 30 out of 212 and found it really interesting to the point I had to respond even though it's over a decade old lol. Sorry to anyone who finds that annoying.

I've been training Ving Tsun, Tai Chi, and Shaolin kung fu under my sifu for about 10 years, but I moved from NY to Chicago for school and got permission to train at a CLF school here, which I'm loving. I've only been at the CLF for school less than a month and have been mainly training my 10 elements, Ng Lung Ma, and Ng Lun Choi, so I'm obviously a super noob in CLF, but I'm loving it and here are some similarities I've seen so far, as well as other comparisons.

In many ways, Ving Tsun seems to be *kind of* like a small frame altered version of CLF. Again, kind of. This isn't to say Ving Tsun is "small frame CLF," as that'd be wrong from what I know so far. Oh yea, and just to say it again: disclaimer: everything I say is based on my limited knowledge.

some examples:

The basic stance in VT is Kim Yeung Ma, then when you shift from side to side the feet are parallel and the front knee is inward to protect the groin. In CLF as I know it so far, it uses sei ping ma and shifts to gong ji mah (these are the terms I know from shaolin but I assume they're the same in CLF, though maybe not) but it also keeps the knee in for the gong ji ma/bow stance to protect the groin. A big diff here is that in shifting, the weight in CLF is more on the front leg in the bow stance while the turning stance in VT is more rear weighted. There was a CLF dummy drill I did with this that was very similar to something done in Ving Tsun. In CLF I train shifting into bow stances on both sides while punching the dummy with one hand and using the other hand to do "chuen" on the dummy arm. This is similar to doing shifting tan-da or similar drills in Ving Tsun. The block and attack at the same time concept.

10 elements of CLF compared to VT concepts:

Kum - like in VT, the CLF hand doing kum can do a pak/slap type motion but it's also about deflecting with the kiu as well

Na - the Na element I train emphasizes Chuen, which is done similar to how we use the Biu/shooting hand in VT. Both use twisting energy as well as forward energy to deflect and occupy space to the target.

Gwa - VT's gwa/backhand actually does seem like a small frame CLF backhand. In VT, we dont train it with the follow through like when I train my 10 elements, but the concept seems almost exactly the same, especially when training the basics of it on the wall bag where one hand lops/clears an obstruction while the other hand does the backfist.

Sao - Haven't really found a similar movement like this. I feel like in VT, the movements that are similar to Sao and Kup of CLF are Ving Tsun's elbow movements. In VT one of the elbow is also called Kup Jiang, or something like that (never saw it spelled out by my sifu), but I dont know if it's the same type of "kup."

Chop - For me, Chop is trained in a similar way to the way I learned how to train VT's pole punching/jin choi. I learned to train chop at the basic level by starting in kum, clearing with the kum hand and moving into yeurn chop, shifting into diu ma and going back into the sei ping ma while executing yum chop. Now dont get me wrong, this seems like a core skill in CLF while in VT it's something that comes into play AFTER the other empty hand forms, so I personally feel like CLF guys do this better in a sense, but the concepts are similar. Except instead of using kum when in the diu ma, in the jin choi, we shoot forward with a center punch while in a rear weighted stance and then move into the sei ping mah while using something along the lines of a yeurn chop.

Pow - pow, especially with the power generation is like a big frame version of Ving Tsun's "cutting back to centerline" movement in the chum kiu. Pow has a longer bridge and seems to generate a lot of power from the beginning while the "cutting back to centerline" move is smaller with a shorter bridge and during early stages, is more about cutting to the center than having power.

Kup - see sao above

Biu - not as much similarity with Ving Tsun here except for when it's done as the compact biu like how I do it at the end of Ng Lun Choi. The compact biu seems like one type of application of the tan sao in VT. That said, Biu, for me, seems similar to an application of "parting horses mane" in Yang Tai chi.

Ding - From what I understand, ding is the concept of hitting with joints. In CLF I know so far, we first train ding using the elbow. In the VT I learn, we also have "ding sao," but the concept is first trained using the back of the wrist joint.

Jong - somewhat similar to a short uppercut type movement in Ving Tsun (cutting back to centerline).

These are little things I noticed so far. But as I said before, I'm primarily a Ving Tsun guy who is still a baby in CLF and just beginning my cross training in it. While things look different from the outside, I can't help but feel that there are similarities which are probably the result of both arts being Southern Chinese Arts. Either way, I'm loving the opportunity to expand my kung fu knowledge and experiences and look forward to what I learn in the future.

[ShortBridge]

In my understanding many styles of Wing-Chun are very systematic,in their teachings, strictly adhering to certain principles and Techniques. Not leaving much room to develop alot of self expression of movements and techniqes. ...

My view on wing chun is that is starts out very restrictive, but gets much less so as it goes. 1st form, you don't move your feet and you learn to perform the isolated techniques without shifting or reaching with your shoulders. Each form opens up and restricts less. Late in the system, you appear to be breaking rules that you were taught early, except that they aren't rules, they are principles and a training methodology.

In my circles, the end result should be fluid movement, range, expression that doesn't look or feel boxed in. It may or may not be that way in every lineage, I don't know. There are TON of people with beginner/intermediate skills and understanding of wing chun that I think represent the system to the rest of the world.



CLF is more of a long range style, however we do have a variety of short range techniques.

Wing Chun is a short range style.

...

I don't know a lot about CLF, though I've always respected and been interested in it. You if say it's a long range style with short range techniques, I believe you. I contend that Wing Chun is a short range style with a number of long range techniques. As above, it doesn't always get represented that way, but it's there.