fut sao wing chun?

[raving_limerick]

Hey guys,

I'm not trying to stir anything up here, but has anyone heard of this lineage and can verify its authenticity? Likewise, what's the general opinion on Sifu James Cama and his school, if anyone knows?

Thanks.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

There is a student of James Cama who posts on this board named SAM. It is sometimes hard to draw out details of the system. But, I will share my limited knowledge fwiw.

Fut Sau was brought to this country by Henry Leung. James Cama is a student of his as is Santos Barbalace. There seems to be some bad blood between these two the details of which I am unaware of nor care to be. I am basing this on some conversations I have had in the past, it is possible I misconstrued something and am mistaken.

Sifu Cama teaches in Brooklyn, NY and has recently opened a school in Manhattan as well. One of his students has also opened a school in Calafornia and he had another student who used to teach in Delaware.

The system has all three empty hand forms, SNT, CK an BT however there is also some Chi Kung and some stepping patterns which seem to be circular. They have the two main weapons and also train to fight with the Buddhist beads as a flexible weapon.

Any further details should come from a representative of this system as my information is second handed and liable to be incorrect.

If in the NY area you could look up Sifu Cama. Santos Barbalace is also still in NY but may be a bit harder to contact. Although, from all accounts he is extremely highly skilled!! Perhaps worth seeking out ;)

Here are some links:

http://members.aol.com/banepon/myhomepage/

http://www.geocities.com/nofear365/

http://www.buddhahandwingchun.org/

http://members.aol.com/undefeat25/FatSao.html



Peace,

Dave

[sunkuen]

Like most of your information Dave!!! (j/k):D

[raving_limerick]

Ah, thanks very much Dave. The info was greatly appreciated.

I only ask as I am considering training in this version of Wing Chun. Since everything seems to point towards the authenticity and solidity of this version of wing Chun and no one has come out of the wood work decrying it, I feel comfortable in starting in it.

Coolness and many many thanks.

[reneritchie]

You always have a choice of learning something because of history or because of quality. Sometimes you're lucky to find both, sometimes unlucky enough to find neither.

The history of Fut Sao in not verifiable. Henry Leung (Leung Chi-Man) has many students each with very, very different stories of where his art came from (from Shaolin abbott Xu Yun, from Fung Siu-Ching, from Chan Wah-Shun, from Leung Jan's family, from Leung Chang-Sang (Leung sifu's uncle), etc. with some saying he has a connection to Yip Man as well through his brother-in-law, Duncan Leung) Each claim their story is direct from Leung sifu and the true one. Since there is no other known source for Fut Sao, including China, it is impossible to cross-reference and figure out.

That means if you want to study Fut Sao just because you think you'll be getting some older, secret, more super-duper branch of WCK, you may want to rethink it.

On the other hand, based on what I've heard, Henry Leung is a very highly skilled martial artist, in WCK, in Fu family internals (Fu Zhensong style Taiji, Bagua, etc.), and perhaps in some Hakka fist as well. Likewise, I have heard good things about Barbalace and Cama sifu.

So, if you appreciate the skill level of the teachers and that is why you want to learn Fut Sao, then you'll probably be happy.

I have some general info up under http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/systems

And may have an old article lying around (in txt format) somewhere if you're interested.

Rgds,

RR

[raving_limerick]

<<On the other hand, based on what I've heard, Henry Leung is a very highly skilled martial artist, in WCK, in Fu family internals (Fu Zhensong style Taiji, Bagua, etc.), and perhaps in some Hakka fist as well. Likewise, I have heard good things about Barbalace and Cama sifu. >>

Ah, let me clarify.

While I'm sure many of us would love to lay claim to learning some rare system like Eight Drunken Immortals or Butterfly Palms or Super-Secret-Emei-Wu-lin-ass-kicking fu, it's not something you should base your kung fu on. The likelyhood of getting an "authentic" martial art is rather slim, if you want something that's verifiable and collectable-- i.e. rare, with a clear cut lineage and a free certificate of authenticity.

My only concern with Fut Sao was that the quality of instruction would be lacking. A style can be effective even if its lineage is doubtful-- just look at every other branch of Wing Chun. Each one claims to be the true distillation of Yip Man's knowledge, yet each one is remarkably different. This gives me two choices-- I can spend all my time debating linage or I can find a branch of wing chun that works and does what I'm looking for.

So far, opinion seems to suggest it'd be worth my time training in this branch.

[kungfu cowboy]

It would really really be nice if people would just be simply honest about their lineage. When people make something up it makes everything they do hang under the shadow of possible bs. I would never be comfortable with that.

[Sam]

Hello RL, I would like to relate some information on Fut Sao Wing Chun and James Cama Sifu. First I would like to thank Sihing 73 and Rene Ritchie for trying to be positive and nuetral. I have a bone to pick though about lineage and speaking from authority. I understand that many have done much research in mainland China and have come up with many conclusions. I have to start off by saying I have utmost respect for all Wing chun lineages but must state that "Hands always tell". When Henry Leung Sifu appeared in the early 70's with his alternate version of Wing Chun's history (by the way Mr. Ritchie this was before you were born) he was not believed and ridiculed by the Yip Man people. Then in 87 James Cama Sifu came out with the history for all to see. Mr. Ritchie and Mr. Chu then authored a book in the 90's declaring the Yip Man history may be a fairy tale and are telling a very similar story to the one that Henry Leung Sifu has been telling for decades. Yip Man's history was engraved in stone. What happened? By the way Fut Sao Wing Chun is in mainland China which I researched from a non Wing Chun source (A senior in another style) who saw a Fut Sao closed door class. Most of these current lineages are hearsay. As far as Henry Leung, he has a precious stone handed down from out of Yung Chun Temple with the Abbots names engraved on it. By the way Yip Man was never given the Grandmastership by anyone in his lineage. I believe Chan Wah Su was the last Grand Master. Henry Leung Sifu vowed to his Sifu that he would not divulge this information because these men were religous monks whom deplored violence and would not wish to be associated with it. I speak for myself but if you wish more information you can call: James Cama 718-692-2281 JCama108@aol.com futsaowingchun108@yahoo.com www.buddhapalm.com

[reneritchie]

Hi Sam,

You raise some interesting points. Please let me preface this by saying that I've had the opportunity to converse with several different Fut Sao people, and as you can imagine, I've heard some pretty outlandish things (that Fung Siu-Ching created WCK by bringing Xingyi down from Hebei, that Leung Bik is only just 70 years old and gave a seminar in New York City in the late 1990s, that Xu Yun (Gao Jee Fut Sao) knew WCK, etc.) So please understand why I take a lot of this stuff with fairly substantial grains of salt.

1) Hands don't always tell. A very good Southern Mantis master might easily handle an intermediate WCK teacher but it doesn't mean the Southern Mantis master is a WCK master. Some people with no MA training at all can be *amazing*, but it doesn't make them legitimate descendants of an MA lineage. Whether someone is good is a separate question.

2) I was, in fact, born in the early 70s 8)

3) Non Yip Man lineages have been known in China, of course, since the beginning, and in HK since before Yip Man even arrived (Chu Chong of Pao Fa Lien, among others, were already there). Even in the US, some other lineages were around. Some had alternate histories, some not. There were also some who came up with WCK histories, so it's not as simple as just who was when and where.

4) I've seen 2 or 3 versions of the Fut Sao book, including the history in it. It's actually a pretty well known history, taken/translated from a book published in the 50s or 60s in Guangdong (Othodox Styles: Wing Chun), (it's the one with the Miu Shun elements). Many WCK people of Leung sifu's generation had this book and its story is found in many branches (including Sum Nung and Cho Ga). Apart from HK, its probably the best known.

5) I'm not sure about Yip Man's history being engraved in stone. It was simply the most wide-spread outside of China (and even in HK they knew the others).

6) Unless you've seen it first hand, I'd be leary about believing people see anything other than the more well known branches in China. The distinctions between branches aren't that clear to all observers, even those expert in other systems (some of the signatures in the Chan Yiu-Min system, for example, look like some of those in Fut Sao, especially the external rotation on Huen Sao before the withdrawl).

7) Most of the current lineages aren't really heresay and can be reliably traced back to the Red Junks. (before that is heresay ;)

8) If you're referring to Abbot Xu Yun (Gao Jee Fut Sao), his life is pretty well documented. It's highly unlikely he had anything to do with WCK, but was concerned with the transmission of Buddhism (such as seen in his inheritor, Hai Deng). If you're referring to his uncle, Leung Chan-Sang, I'd be very interested in hearing more. However, it's probably unlikely that WCK came from any religious sources, as its transmission is pretty clear from the performers to the Foshan merchant classes, unless it stopped by only briefly along the way (someone in Foshan taught a monk who then taught students).

Anyway, more food for thought. Hopefully this and other branches will become more clear as time goes on.

Rgds,

RR

[Sam]

Hello Mr. Ritchie,
There is much misinformation given out by unscrupulous characters who were in the organization at one time. They tried to link Fut Sao to the popular history currently being uncovered. If you research the venerable Hsu Yun especially Mr. Charles Luk you will find it documented that Hsu Yun did practice and teach Chinese Yoga. There is another well documented story of him flinging a huge boulder at age 80. It is also documented that he taught at both Yun Chun and Kwong Chai Monastery Known for Wing Chun and Jook Lum Mantis. Of course Hsu Yun is known as a Buddhist saint so his martial skills have been surpressed to the outside world. That is why the system is called Fut Sao (Buddha Hand) in homage to the vunerable Hsu Yun. This is why you will not find this lineage in the Red Boat or village Wing Chun. Although Henry Leung Sifu has a connection through his uncle a 6th cousin to Leung Jan.

[reneritchie]

Hi Sam,

Understood on the conflicting histories, though, once again that's what everyone seems to say about each other (Ken Fish, for example, claims Leung sifu gave him letters of introduction for China when he visited and that he managed to personally confirm Leung's story about Fung Siu-Ching - a story which conflicts with all the known students of Fung Siu-Ching).

Xu Yun, while I respect the story, is still *very* hard for me to believe. I have no problem believing Xu Yun might have known martial arts and/or Qigong, based on his early history before Buddhism. However, Wing Chun Kuen was probably not taught or spread anywhere near where he was (not in Kwangsi, Kiangsi, etc.) There are many far more likely MA he could have learned in his background.

Many systems claim to have a version of WCK not from the Red Junks. However, I still default back to the simple fact that you can't find WCK (or anything even remotely resembling it) anywhere else. The same way that it would take them actually digging up a Porche beneath the colleseum for me to believe they had high performance cars during the time of Ceaser.

(BTW- This is nothing against Fut Sao, as I said many lineages make these claims, and many students sincerely believe them - for example that Pao Fa Lien is a Northern Internal branch of WCK from Henan Shaolin).

Rgds,

RR

[Sam]

Hi Rene,
Fut Sao is not the Wing Chun which you have researched at least in part as Leung Sifu may have also learned Leung Jan's version also. The original style was called Gu Yee chuan (Ancient Chivalrous Fist) Fut Sao Wing Chun was coined later in homage to it's Buddhist and Wing Chun influences. Gu Yee Chuan is a complete internal system which contains the young virgin hei-gung for light skills which Henry Leung learned at age 7 to 14yrs old. I have seen first hand incredible feats done by Henry Leung Sifu. James Cama Sifu has learned these skills and can perform them in his prime. www.buddhapalm.com

[reneritchie]

Hi Sam,

Thanks, I'm familiar with the story about Koo Yee Kuen but never heard it referred to as distinct from the Wing Chun before. Could you elaborate a little on what parts of Fut Sao are Koo Yee and what are Wing Chun Kuen? That sounds like a very interesting explination for the system's roots.

The name Koo Yee, I think, was popular among the pulp fiction writers (the same kind who wrote the WCK history I referred to before) for their heroic epics (because they sometimes didn't know what the real people practiced and sometimes made up additional characters, so Ancient Righteous Fist was a name that fit well with the romance of the times). Is that the only name used for this other system? Is it also distinct from Leung sifu's Fu family internals? (Leung Yee/Liang Yi).

Rgds,

RR

[Sam]

Historians say that history is best told in folk tales because documented history is always slanted to whomever is in power at the time. The internal forms of the system and inch power Dim Mak strikes are unique. Qi issuing and transferance techniques also. Soft,loose hands. James Cama Sifu would know more. You should speak with him.

[reneritchie]

Hi Sam,

At one end you have bullies who force their "history" on others, on the other end, crackpots who manufacture "history", and somewhere in the middle, with hard work and patience, you can usual find a pretty good thread of actual history.

Thanks much for the information. I've spoken with Cama sifu, and several of his classmates, in the past and perhaps will have the chance to do so again.

Rgds,

RR

[Sam]

Your welcome. Anytime we can talk and share and agree to disagree is good. All roads eventually lead to the same enlightenment. Hopefully we can help each other along the way.

[raving_limerick]

Thanks for the information from both of you. I'm still a bit of a newbie here, so would you both mind me asking you some questions? (Feel free to answer here or in a private message, if you want)


Sam- You have actually trained with Cama sifu, right? If so, how is his kung fu? Do you enjoy the training and the style? How internal is Fut Sao? Do the internal qualities extend through the strikes and blocks of the system or are they merely in the footwork? (I hear the system is similar to Bagua in that regard.) Is there Qi-gong like in Tai Chi Chuan, Baguazhang, et all., or is the style more "scientific" (for lack of a better term) like the Yip Man variants? Finally, do you think that fut sao is "real", as in a sound method of fighting?

Rene- Where to begin... Okay, first question, what are the Red Junks and how do they relate to the varieties of Wing Chun? Do other non-Yip Man lineages have similar questions regarding their linages? (Please note that I'm not trying to invalidate Fut Sao, just curious, no offence to anyone else) You sound extremely knowledgable regarding the history of Wing Chun Kuen. Would you mind giving a clueless novice (like me) a brief run-down of Wing Chun history or point me in a direction where I can learn more?

Many thanks to both of you.

Ciao.

[mun hung]

quote:
"By the way Yip Man was never given the Grandmastership by anyone in his lineage. I believe Chan Wah Su was the last Grand Master."

strong words

Now who could have really given Yip Man that title anyway? I was told by my SiFu that Yip Man never wanted to be called a Grandmaster, but in my opinion - who could've deserved it more than him? He did so much for Wing Chun.

Advice - in the future you should be careful whenever you speak of Yip Man. You might p!ss some people off.

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by mun hung
Advice - in the future you should be careful whenever you speak of Yip Man. You might p!ss some people off.

If comments about Ip Man, someone that few have met, offend people, those people have issues.

The truth is in the hands, regardless of lineage. So what is so offensive? If you don't lack in your hands, there's nothing to be offended by.

It is those who lack in skill, that rely on their lineage to back them up.

Economy of energy...

[Sam]

Thank you whippinghand, you stated my point most eloquently. Mun Hung I ment no offense and as I originally stated have a great respect for all Wing Chun lineages. My point is that some lineages use their line like a pedigree and look down on everyone else. I like whippinghand fully agree that hands always tell.

[reneritchie]

Sam - Thanks much!

Rav - The Red Junk Opera Company was one of the Wandering Opera Troupes of Canton during the 1800s. They would travel between the towns of Siuhing (Zhaoqing), Faatsan (Foshan), Kwangchow (Canton, Guangzhou) performing for the villagers along the way (rich folk had their own companies 8).

On the Red Junks were White Crane boxers, Hung boxers, Hakka boxers, and others. Some of the opera roles were also martial. Wong Wah-Bo played to Mo-Sang (Martial Lead), Leung Yee Tai the Mo Deng (Female Martial Lead, played in drag because they were all male companies), Dai Fa Mim Kam played the Mo Jing (Martial Painted Face), etc. which all required knowledge of the more dynamic northern martial arts and weapons.

By the mid 1800s, the leader of the Red Junks was Lee Man-Mao, a white crane boxer. In support of the Taiping rebellion, under Chan Hoi, he led the Red Junk performers onto the streets of Foshan, in full costume, bearing Red Banners, and the Red Turban Rebellion began. They seized Foshan and made an attempt to seize Guangzhou as well. It failed, the rebellion failed, and the Qing retaliated by slaughtering the actors, burning down their docks, stages, and boats, and outlawing their performances. Those that survived joined other companies, left the province, made their living as street performers, or hid in the towns, like Foshan.

How Wing Chun Kuen arrived on the Red Junk (or if, in fact, it did and was not actually developed there) is a mystery to all. There are only legends, oral transmissions which mix in folk lore and pulp fiction. All we really know for sure is that after the destruction of the Red Junks, WCK is taught and appears for the first verifiable time off the Red Junks. It passed to Foshan apothecary Leung Jan, Foshan constable Fok Bo-Chuen, etc. and was also passed by Red Junk apprentices like Fung Siu-Ching in Foshan and Guangzhou, Cho Shun in Poon Yee (Panyu), etc.

From them come the modern lineages, like Yip Man, Sum Nung, Gulao, Cho, etc.

Rgds,

RR

[Phil Redmond]

Hi Rene, and Sam
Rene, I know I promised you a copy of the tape I have of the history of Gu Yee Kuen (Fut Sao) that was recorded by a Dr. friend of Henry Leung, while Henry translated. This tape was made in Henry's home before he moved to Queens I was present while it was being recorded.
Maybe the tape can explain the correct history of the Gu Yee Kuen system. I was was a student of Sifu Leung long before Santo or James. For about 2 years, after my regular job, I would work at Henry's restaurant . His restaurant was called the 'Yau Lei' (Friendship Restaurant). When we closed the restaurant we would take the 'L' train to his apartment in Brooklyn where we would train until 2 or 3 AM. I remembered Santo from Duncan's kwoon at 3 Great Jones St. So when he came to learn from Henry we had something in common. Also, Santo is Colombian so we spoke Spanish often. I really don't remember if James or Santo was there first. Anyway, my point is that for everyday I trained with Henry Leung. When he moved to Putnam St in Ridgewood Queens he helped me get an apartment with my wife and children on the floor above him. I was with him EVERYDAY. I knew him when he was married to his first wife from Taiwan. And was still with him when he married a younger woman later. I was in the restaurant when he drew the Buddha hand with the "Fut Jyu' (prayer beads) on a paper table mat in his restaurant. I still ahve some original logos that Henry made. He is a fantastic TCM doctor. I know, because I have asthma. Henry gave me treatments that always worked better than the Western meds I was using. (I was there when other TCM doctors would come by the restaurant and discuss medicine. They would sometimes remark about the 'Hak Gwai' (black devil) who was working in the kitchen. They didn't know that I spoke Cantonese and Henry would laugh when I would come out of the kitchen to confront them). He even treated my kids. He was like a godfather to them. They would go down to his apartment to hang out often. I was studying acupuncture at the time. Henry helped me ace all of my tests. I had great respect for him. Henry's restaurant was on Delancy street in Manhattan, a known prostitution area at the time. Henry is of small stature, but I witnessed him throw out a pimp who was harrassing one of the ladies of the night that frequented his restaurant. After I left, I was hired to manage the Soho Fitness Center. I was a student of William Cheung then. At the grand opening of the
fitness center we were having matial arts demo with a lot of law enforcemet people. Just before the event Henry, his wife, James, and another guy showed up. At that time an unfortuate incident happened between myself Henry Leung, and Sifu Cama. (Some years later I met Cama when we were judges for a Chi Sao event at a tourament and as far as I'm concerned the incident was forgotten). Anyway, words were exchanged because of something I said regarding Henry's linage. I was approached by James. I walked over to Henry and said I would talk to him personally. We walked towards the dressing room. James and a friend of his followed behind me and Henry. About five of the officers, who were in karate Gi followed them. They were asked to leave. This all occurred because Henry told me one night, in his apartment, that his sifu, Gau Jee Fu Sao, took him into a locked room to learn a special techinque. But his sifu died before he finished his lesson. Henry then said that he couldn't get out of the room. So his sifu through telepathy, taught him how to break the walls and get out. I left after he told me that.
PRedmond

[yuanfen]

Thanks much for sharing your views and perceptions honestly
and with grace

[Phil Redmond]

Yuanfen, I didn't write this post to defame Henry Leung. It's just that I know some things that most might not know about Henry Leung . All he had to do was be honest with me. It didn't matter where he learned his kung fu. He never treated me different because I was not Chinese as the other sifus in NYC Chinatown treated me. I just saw too many flaws in the history he gave me.
I watched the transition as it progressed. Henry helped me in so many other ways. My college Chinese sucked until I met him. He helped me with my asthma. He treated my children like they were his grands. Maybe I'm just a little old fashioned. All he had to do was be real. Wing Chun has too much controversy to add any more. I hope he is doing well.
P Redmond
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com

[Sam]

My Sifu James Cama wishes to make a statement.

It is regretable that personal history has to be aired out in public. I have remained silent for almost two decades about these incidents. As is well documented I have always believed as my Sifu's proven that hands tell and you must have the Kung Fu no matter what the art or lineage. The only thing I can say to Mr. Redmond (Bilal) is that proper etiqette is to remain silent and not lose face for your previous Sifu and style are also part of your personal history. Remember Philip when I asked you face to face if the special skills you were taught and never seen before in any other Wing Chun system were due to Henry Leung Sifu and Fut Sao. You replied yes. I asked you if you had ever seen any other Sifu perform the feats you have seen with your own eyes that Henry Leung Sifu has done. You said no you haven't. As far as the history I gave an explanation in above posts through my student Sam as to why Fut Sao is unique and not part of the other Wing Chun lineage's. I cannot speak for Henry Leung Sifu but will say that he told me that he purposefully withheld information because of oaths he took to his Sifu not to disclose the origins. You know he has the precious stone in which the names of his predesessors are carved. If you wish to believe in another lineage that's fine but do not knock ours for there are many holes in the popular beliefs which are coming to light. As you said we met at the tournament and were gentlemen lets leave it at that and not air out bad blood.

James Cama

[raving_limerick]

Dear all,

It was not my intention to start controversy or the facilitate the airing of dirty laundry in this thread. While the history of Wing Chun interests me (many thanks to RR), the main focal point of my question was that I was curious about the fighting skills of the system. So far, no one has raised any doubts as to the skills of Sifu Leung or Sifu Cama, so I shall continue to seek instruction in this lineage.

Many thanks to all who replied. You're input was greatly appreciated.

[Sam]

I believe that Henry Leung Sifu was speaking of a transmission which is documented in the venerable Hsu Yun's own words :
The Master was ninety-two in 1931, and was esteemed as the leader of Ch'an School of Buddhism. He taught that the method of attaining the One lay in Pointing to the heart; seeing the nature and becoming a Buddha; a method which is not dependent on language, but which is mind-to-mind transmission.
In accordance to this Henry Leung Sifu was describing this transmission and the breaking down of the walls was a metaphor for the breaking through to the other side (Enlightenment).

[yuanfen]

I think that Phil and Sam have both made their points and I think that we should move on. Nothing wrong with explaining views on
lineage within reason.

[mun hung]

Whippinghand - ???

"Economy of energy..." - save some of your own.

[mun hung]

Sam - no offense taken.

I've met a couple of Henry Leung's students recently in our school. Nice guys.

[whippinghand]

Originally posted by mun hung
"Economy of energy..." - save some of your own.
Sorry if it hits a sore spot, Pete.

[mun hung]

Ha! Poor attempt. (yawning) Get a life. :rolleyes:

[reneritchie]

A great quote I once heard was that if all the old "Qigong" tricks were real, China would win every event in every Olympics.

Part is probably very high skill, part is probably student awe (to a primitive, a radio could be magic or even the voice of the divine), and part is probably urban legend ("heard that this one sifu could teleport...")

There are magicians and yogi who can do some pretty wild things. Why not some who practice martial arts as well?

Never seen anything I was at a loss to understand in real life, but who knows?

Empty Cup- I'm not sure how people define "internal" any more, so can't really comment on what may or may not be "internal WCK". Every branch has people who call what they do "internal". Sum Nung and Pan Nam both have added Qigong sets (Sun Hei Gwai Yuen and Ng Jee Mui Fa Hei Gung respectively).

Rgds,

RR