The Fallacy of "REBEL QING, RESUME MING"

[Ming Fai]

This topic is my reaction after reading the topic "Ching or Ming dynasty?".

I'm a graduate student of Chinese Translation & Interpreting and furthermore I have been studying Chinese history since the age of 12 (autodidactic). What is really annoying me these couple of years is the misconception, among martial artists in particular, that the Ming was "good" and the Qing was "evil", IT JUST AIN'T TRUE!!!

Kunglek from Winnipeg wrote that the Ming dynasty was considered the Golden Age in Chinese history and that the Qing dynasty was a period of suppression of the Chinese people by the Manchurians. This idea is very common amongst practitioners of Chinese Martial Arts in the West, and ONLY in the West. Everyone who knows Chinese history, like every citizen of the Chinese regions (People's Republic of China, Taiwan, Hongkong and Singapore) where Chinese history is taught at school knows that this is not true.

The Ming dynasty was not a "Golden Age", on the contrary this dynasty is known in Chinese history as the Age of Darkness. Some of the Ming emperors never showed up in the throne hall to discuss political affairs with their ministers during their lives. Because the ministers never saw their monarch, the real power slowly moved into the hands of the eunuchs, who were the personal servants of the emperor. During the reign of the Ming emperors which lasted for 294 years, corrupt eunuchs and spies roamed the land, harrassing and killing innocent citizens or political enemies. Emperor Zhengde, who reigned during 1506-1522, visited the south of China many times. On each visit he and his soldiers raped women, robbed and killed the inhabitants of entire villages. At the end of the Ming dynasty bandits and rebels where rising in every part of the empire. This gave the Manchurians the chance to invade China, but even if the Manchurian invasion did not happened, the Ming dynasty would also have ended and the Chinese empire would have split into many small states battling eachother. It were actually the Manchurians who re-established the social order in China.

In Chinese history there were three Golden Ages: the Han dynasty (BC 206 -AD 220),
the Tang Dynasty (618-907) and the Qing(!) Dynasty (1644-1911). The Qing empire was 3 times bigger than the Ming empire at it's peak. The Manchurians were seen by the Han-Chinese as barbarians, because the Manchurians were not as civilised as the Han-Chinese. But while the Ming emperors were used to luxury, the Qing emperors led simple lives. Here are some statistics:

Ming Qing
Number of female servants 9000 134
Number of eunuchs 100.000 500
Daily expenses 10.000 Liang 35 Liang

The Ming dynasty had 16 emperors and they were either brutal tyrants or incompetent idiots. The Qing dynasty, on the other hand, had 13 emperors and four of them were the best emperors in China's history while the rest were also quite capable monarchs.
If the Ming dynasty did not collapse and would have lasted till the following centuries than China would have most likely been colonised and divided by Western Imperialism like it happened with Africa. That could have been the end of Chinese culture.

Although at the beginning of the Qing dynasty many martial artists indeed tried to rebel against the Qing government, and they were the founders of many Southern styles of Kungfu, we must understand that they did not had the ability to predict the future and did not know that the Manchurians would led China into a new Golden Era. Our Grandmasters were only aware of the fact that a foreign tribe has conquered their homeland and they indeed had a good reason to rebel. But nowadays we are able to know the entire history of that period and should give credit to those who deserve it. Only because these martial artists founded the kungfu styles that we practice does not mean that their political ideas were right. I am of Han-Chinese origin myself and I think that all Chinese people and practitioners of Chinese martial arts should thank the Manchurians for preserving China's unity and culture.

[MoQ]

It is not a political anything we just like the legends and that's about the extent of our interest.<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Our Grandmasters were only aware of the fact that a foreign tribe has conquered their homeland and they indeed had a good reason to rebel. [/quote]
That's enough for me.

Now the Manchu's were good guys and now we love Nixon... okay

I don't think the fact that it's taught in Communist China is all that impressive though.

[Ming Fai]

You say you are only interested in the legends, that's fine with me. But I am interested in history and I believe you should KNOW the facts so that you can have a more clear view on what is history and what is fiction. It is already difficult enough to find out the history of our own kungfu styles but still there are people out there who are making rediculous historical claims based on legends. I just don't want people to be confused by false information.

What about the Neo-Nazi's who are claiming that the Holocaust never happened? Or what if German people will tell you that Hitler was a good guy?
Hey, the Native Americans were slaughtered! The Afro-Americans were enslaved and brought to America against their will! But the Caucasian ancestors of modern USA thought they were doing the right thing. So that's enough for you too, MoQ?

At least I am not massaging my own ego or throwing mud to practitioners of other styles of martial arts, like some other people here on this site. I just thought that this was a site dedicated to exchange knowledge between serious martial artists, guess I was wrong...

[South Paw]

Ming Fai, I hope you just continue to clear things up in a historical sense.

Legends, as told in our systems, also have a value, as was already discussed in another KFO forum.

South Paw

[supfujow]

Thanks for the summary on the history of this period. I hope you continue to share this truth. Take care. :)

[MoQ]

I know you are just repeating what you read and that is the real truth. I know that peeps who would write a footlong post their first time out are BS Artists looking for an easy audience. You actually posted twice so you need to be heard... A very bold self-intro and yet the next post is a flaccid broken-wing act. You've got so much to share, you are putting words into people's mouths already, pretending pure altruism drives your actions and you've posted 4 times incl. the dupes!

Taking a Pro-Manchu posture on a CMA forum is like going to the Betty Crocker board and posting that white flour is really bad for you and the joy of pastry is just courting death. They already know, don't really care, everyone knows you're there for a hidden reason...Rather than whine about it(the worst kind), you could take your games elsewhere.

[Kevin73]

People would much rather have problems from within than be overthrown and conquered by another people. So the phrase is true, from a certain perspective.

All of those examples you gave are written from the victors of the war.

Holocaust: Polls show that most younger jews believe that the holocaust didn't happen to the extent that it did, and was used as a springboard to get US involvement. Remember, it wasn't Hitler who started the "final solution" it was Henrich Himmler (sp?) who talked to England first and wanted to transport the Jews out of Germany and put them on an island off the coast of Africa that England owned and they told him to get lost they didn't want the Jews either.

Slavery: African tribes kidnapping rival tribes and then selling them to Europeans then to America. The Emancipation Proclomation only freed slaves in the south, not the north. In fact, most northern states had laws in place that said if a black man tried to settle in their state he would be flogged and in some lynched.

I'm not condoning these acts because they should not have happened, but look at how the history uses these acts to justify what they did. The south is painted as an evil slave owner (even though only 4% of the south had more than 3 slaves and 85% never had one slave) Hitler is held responsible for killing the Jews, even though a short time later Stalin killed way more of his own people than the Nazis killed in WWII, or that Mao Tse Tung killed tons of his own people in China (we don't care because they were just commies and not like us). All throughout history horrible acts are done and justified afterwards with a scapegoat.

So I don't buy your whole "historical" fact from Communtist China on why the old way was bad and lead to them being conquered.

"There are many who talk of the Way, but few who walk the Way."

[Ming Fai]

To MoQ:
You say I just repeat the things I've read and that is true... I read lots of (Chinese) books. It is my dream to become a martial arts historian one day. I had no intention to make my self-intro sound bold, I was just saying that I have studied the Chinese language & culture.
I posted this as a topic first but a few minutes later I changed my mind and posted it as a reply instead. If you don't like it, I can let this topic be removed and we'll just continue on "Ching or Ming dynasty". It's no big deal. But if I write something on a forum, of course I want people to read it. I'm just only human.
I don't see the problem of me being a new member to post a long story. Why does that automatically make me a BS artist? Just because I'm a new kid in town does not mean the things I write are somehow inferior to the posts of veteran members.
I didn't say I've got much to share, I believe that we all can learn from eachother. I have no great kungfu wisdom to reveal for I'm just a student with mediocre skills. But I do know my history and I'm sure that at least a few martial artists out there are interested in history. So what's wrong with discussing Chinese history on a Chinese Martial Arts Forum? If you do not agree with the things I wrote you can criticise me. If you're not interested you can just ignore the whole subject. But you can't tell me to shut up and leave just because you don't like the subject. I'm not doing anything wrong here.
Oh, and sorry for my second post here. I'm not happy about it myself, it did sounded like an act of self-pityness.

To Kevin:
Sorry again, I shouldn't have brought up those other issues. But I find it a bit strange that just because I wrote in my post the words "People's Republic of China" somehow my whole story becomes "Communist propaganda". I have lots of material on Chinese history and the PRC is just ONE of my sources. I live in Europe, I was born in Europe, but I spent a part of my youth in Taiwan and Hongkong, and I studied in Beijing for a half year. I can assure you that I'm not commie.

[MoQ]

You are right and I apologize.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

It is relative and a matter of the insertion of a foreign government. The most golden era was the Tang Dynasty...it's dress, music etc. and this is portrayed in plays etc.. The Ming dynasty may have been more corrupt than others...but it was still Han and not Manchurian or foreign...so the underground societies wanted to restore it (Ming) and fought for a long time to do so...for as you know the Ching (Qing) dynasty lasted a long time (1644-1911). It was the Ching that destroyed Shaolin Temple and that was when the movement to overthrow became very strong. There was indeed a saying that when translated goes something like this "Destroy Ching, Restore Ming". The Southern Lion Dance is an example of the movement and still lasts to today where the Lion throws out the greens (Choy Chiang) where the name (Cantonese) for greens was so close to Ching and thus was a secret message to "Destroy" the Ching Dynasty. This is all a matter of history/fact and not fallacy. As you know history is according to the writer...and so the importance of verification by checking many sources.

[CannonFist]

Ming Fai,

Thanks for your insights of Chinese history in relation to Chinese martial arts. In a way we actually have to thank the Qing as without them many Southern kung fu styles would not exist in its form today. I also agree with you that the Qing dynasty was definitely more able than the Ming dynasty.

One southern style that does not have the 'rebel qing' goal is the Pak Mei style. Legend and the more common stories state that Pak Mei was a traitor who helped the Qing. However some Pak Mei practitioners claim that Pak Mei did not want to rebel the Qing as he did not see the need for it as he thought the Qing was managing quite well but more importantly he did not really helped the Qing, as he was a Taoist and does not want to meddle with political affairs.

[Kevin Barkman]

This is a good topic - thanks Ming Fai, for your research and commentary.

If my fellow Westerners (or other interested peoples) on this board are interested in the history of the whole "restore the Ming" / Shaolin legend / myth, I would refer their attention to an excellent series of books on the subject:

The Hung Society or the Society of Heaven and Earth, Volumes I - III, by JSM Ward and WG Stirling, The Baskerville Press, Ltd., London, 1925 (ISBN 0-404-11220-X).

Cheers - kevin

[MoQ]

I DID ask my Olde Chinese Friend an he said exactly...:

"Ching Dynasty is Manchurian, The Ming are a Chinese Emperor and the Ming Dynasty was one of the best in China, prosperious, peace, the last Ming Emperor is a Pacefest that doesn't belive in violence and didn't even kept a big military, he instead gather and support scholars and artists etc. that is why the Ming fell.
One of the Generals family was kidnaped by the Mancharians and to get his family back alive he must open the gates to the palace and let the Manchurian in , it was a surprise invation, the Manchurian army was inside the walls of China and before the Ming knew what was going on the Empire was invaded, there was no time for military action so the Emperor slit his own throat to avoid capture, he first murdered his family and then himself because he can not allow his family to fall into the hands of the Manchurians, the Ching Dynasty.

One of the Ming officials saved the Princess and brought he to the Buddhist Monastary because the Ching will not investigate the Temples, the Princess became a Nun and planed to take China back for the Chinese and restore China to Ming's rule again by putting a Ming relative on the throne as Emperor. As you know in history that never happen, China was not restore to the Mings, it was restore to the people.

How could the Ching be good if they are Barbarians that took up Chinese customs and murder and rape Chinese people as well as steal goods, it was the Ching that gaved away Taiwan (Formosa) to the Japanese in the 1800's, it was the Ching that gaved Hong Kong to the British for 99 yrs hoping that the British will build an wealthy empire for the Ching Dynasty, they were the one that gaved away Macao to the Portugese.

The Ching Dynasty fell at the time that the Last Emperor Henry Pui Yee rule. Look at that? Henry a Chinese Emperor taking on a name of a British King, allied with Britain and the Americans to make Chinese slaves to them. They were the one that pass a law that all Chinese must wear a Cue or poney tail as a sign of summision to the Chings, without the poney tail that is a crime of death beheading it is a sign of a traitor to the Chings.

The Ching Emperors are the one that will marry their mother if the father died or marry a sister or relative that are Manchurian, the Emperor then will gather 5,000 young girls under the age of 16 as concubines and when he die all these girls will be entombed with him, he requires 5,000 girls every year from the Chinese population.

Denieing the Emperor of sex is death by beheading of the girls' whole family including the dogs, pigs, relatives, distant relatives etc. any one connected to her family in any way will be arressted and beheaded.

That is what the original TRIADS are they are a secrect society that is form to overthrow the Ching and restore the Ming Dynasty. It is like the CIA of ancient Ming Dynasty China.

It was only after 1912 that it became a criminal organization. After the last Emperor..."

Apparently, not all Chinese are singing the praises of the Chings...

[South Paw]

Ming Fai wrote: "It is my dream to become a martial arts historian one day".

Maybe it's time to rewrite the story of your own system. I'll advice you to start with that. If this history, that is full of facts and fiction, is rewritten you're up to the task to become a martial arts historian yourself. In the meanwhile do visit a university where you can graduate as historian.

South Paw

[Ben Gash]

Ming Fai, China was colonised in the Qing dynasty, most concretely by England and Portugal, and Beijing and Shanghai were effectively run in many areas by the English, Americans and Germans.

"Weapons are the embodiments of fear,
the wise use them only when they have no choice"
Lao Tzu

[Ming Fai]

Well, MoQ... I respect you for being honest but I have to tell you that the story of yours is full of flaws (I don't know how your friend could have said this). Here's how it goes:

During the Ming Dynasty, the Confucianist System of scholars began to stagnate. China always had a head start in the fields of technology and science compared to the rest of the world but during the Ming Dynasty, Chinese civilisation began to decline. This was due to the fact that the Ming Emperors relied only on their eunuchs and secret service to rule the country. The Ming Dynasty became the Dark Age of China's history.

The eunuchs and spies not only harrassed the Ming citizens, they slaughtered many people from ethnic minorities too. In the year 1583, the head of the Aisin Gioro clan in Manchuria was murdered by Ming officials. The son of this leader, Nurhachi, swore to avenge his father's death and began to unite all Manchurian tribes, forming them into eight divisions and began his war against the Ming empire. The Ming Emperor Wanli was an opium-addict and refused to spent money on strenghtening the army. Nurhachi then conquered the whole North-Eastern part of China outside the Great Wall and divided the Han-Chinese citizens of this region into eight divisions.

After the death of Wanli, his son Chongcheng became emperor. Emperor Chongcheng wanted to defeat the Manchurians but he too was reluctant to spend his own money. Instead, he laid heavy taxes and let his soldiers plunder the Ming citizens to gather money for the army. Soon, rebellions broke out in every corner of the empire. The rebel armies chose the peasant Li Zhicheng as their leader and began to fight their way to Beijing. Meanwhile, the Manchurian Khan Nurhachi died and his son Abachai came to power. Abachai succesfully subdued the Mongolian tribes and divided them into 8 divisions too. Abachai then proclaimed himself Emperor of the Qing, with the 24 divisions (Manchurian, Han and Mongolian) as his empire.

Abachai was satisfied with his realm and wanted to make peace with the Ming if the Ming Empire would recognise him as Emperor of the Qing. Emperor Chongcheng was an arrogant man and refused to except a barbarian emperor. The war continued, Abachai attacked relentlessly but was defeated by Ming General Yuan Chonghuan. Yuan Chonghuan was a patriotic man, wise enough to see that the Ming could not afford a war against the Qing AND the rebels. Yuan decided to make peace with Abachai. When Chongcheng became aware of this, he got furious and had Yuan executed. Chongcheng has now killed the only man who could have saved him.
The rebel army under the leadership of Li Zhicheng defeated the Ming troops and entered Beijing. Emperor Chongcheng, afraid that his daughters would be raped by the rebels, killed two of his daughters and cut off the arm of Princess Changping (who later became a nun). Chongcheng then committed suicide (by hanging) on Coal Hill.
Rebel king Li Zhicheng, on the other hand, became quite a tyrant himself by letting his troops plunder the citizens of Beijing. He abducted the wife of Ming general Wu Sangui who guarded the gates of the Great Wall. Wu Sangui knew that his troop were no match for Li Zhicheng's army and he turned to the Manchurians for help.

Qing Emperor Abachai has died by now and his 6-year-old son Shunzhi became emperor. But in fact it was his uncle Dorgun the Prince-Regent who was the actual ruler. Wu Sangui surrendered to the Qing and opened the gates of the Great Wall for the Manchurian invasion. Dorgun's army defeated Li Zhicheng and the Qing succesfully conquers Northern China. Meanwhile in the South, Prince Fu of the Ming dynasty proclaimed himself Emperor in Nanjing (The beginning of the Southern Ming Period). Prince Fu was a real idiot, his first act as an emperor was to let his officials search for aphrodysiac serums, his second act was to gather 5000 beautiful maiden to sleep with him. "Denieing the Emperor of sex is death by beheading of the girls' whole family including the dogs, pigs, relatives, distant relatives etc. any one connected to her family in any way will be arrested and beheaded." Prince Fu's reign, of course, didn't last long. The Qing troops conquered Nanjing and Prince Fu was killed. The citizens of South China were at first happy that the Manchurians saved them from the tyranny of Prince Fu, but when the male population was forced to wear their hair in a tail (Manchu style) they got enraged and began to attack Qing soldiers. Dorgun then ordered his troops to kill all inhabitants of the two cities Yangzhou and Jiading as an act of vengeance. In this infamous "Massacre of Yangzhou & Jiading" many Han-Chinese were slaughtered by the Manchurians (THIS WAS REALLY AN HORRIBLE ACT OF THE QING).

When Emperor Kangxi (son of emperor Shunzhi) came to power, he was ashamed of the horrible deeds committed by his ancestors during the "Massacre of Yangzhou & Jiading". Kangxi swore to repay this debt and in his 60-year-long reign he brought prosperity and peace in China for both Han and Manchurians. The reign of emperors Kangxi, Yongzheng, Qianlong (a period of 150 years) was considered the Third Golden Age of China. It wasn't untill the 19th century that the Qing Empire began to decline and Western Imperialist Forces came to China.

Now then, the Manchurians never had the tradition of marrying their mother or sister after their father's death. This was a tradition of the Huns 2000 years ago (The Huns didn't marry their own mother though, just the concubines of his father). The Qing never held human sacrifices and their emperors never had 5000 concubines. The concubines were carefully selected from the original 24 divisions, so most of these concubines were Manchurian and some were Han or Mongolian. The population of these 24 divisions were not big so they couldn't have selected 5000 concubines (EACH YEAR? IMPOSSIBLE!).

Macao was colonised during the Ming dynasty, not the Qing dynasty. The Qing did lose Taiwan to the Japanese for a while but please remember that during the Ming Dynasty Taiwan was already taken from the Ming by the Dutch (Formosa was the Dutch name for Taiwan). After the fall of the Ming and the establishment of the Qing dynasty, emperor Kangxi managed to conquer Taiwan again. If it was not for the Manchurians, Taiwan would have been a Dutch colony for centuries!

In the 19th century the Manchurians have totally mixed with the Han-Chinese. The Qing government had corrupted and the Chinese fleet was outdated. The British brought opium to China and many Chinese got addicted. The Qing government was outraged and the Opium War broke out. With their modern fleet the Brits defeated the Chinese with ease and the Qing government was forced to sign the treaty in which they gave Hongkong to England for 99 years. By then, Japan had modernised during the Meiji Period and attacked China with their new fleet. China lost the Sino-Japanese War and for a short while Taiwan was taken over by the Japanese.

So you see, the Qing never did GAVE AWAY Hongkong and Taiwan to foreigners, China had stayed behind with the rest of the world and now everybody were going to take advantage of them. It was not just the Qing's fault. It was China on the whole.

Emperor Pu Yi was a tragic figure. He became emperor when he was just a child of 4. When he grew up it was already to late to change China's fate. During that time, China has suffered many defeats against the West, because of this many Chinese lost their faith in their own culture and tried to absorb Western culture. Pu Yi was a good example, he wanted to modernise China and began to learn English and even got himself a English name. But it was of no use. Please note that about 50% of the Qing emperors became monarch in childhood, while all Ming emperors came to power at an adult age. Strangely enough it was the Qing Dynasty that had so many good monarch while almost all Ming rulers were tyrants or idiots.

I am not pro-Manchu, I am just anti-Ming here. The Qing Dynasty was just a much better period than the Ming. Some parts of China were indeed colonised during the Qing but they still had enough land left. The Qing empire was 3 times bigger than the Ming empire. If the West had faced the pathetic little Ming empire instead of the Qing Dynasty, then surely China would have been divided like a cake by the Western powers and the Chinese would have become a second Jewish people.

Wow, I am tired now after writing this post... BYE!

-All under Heaven belongs to the inhabitants of the lands under Heaven. The Mandate of Heaven will go to the One virtuous enough to deserve it.-
The Six Strategies of Taigong

[Ben Gash]

Hong Kong and Kowloon were Britain's by right of conquest, only the new territories were on loan (however, the evolution of Hong Kong meant that it would be crippled without the New Ts, so we ended up giving it all back).
The Africans didn't exactly give away their countries, they were unable to compete with well armed European armies, just like the Chinese.

"Weapons are the embodiments of fear,
the wise use them only when they have no choice"
Lao Tzu

[Kenji]

**** that last post was very informative! I'm gona have to do more reading on this. Very very interesting.

[tanglangman]

Very interesting reading guys. Perhaps there should be a new forum set up to discuss more about the history of ma origins?

"feel free to criticize, I may learn something new"

[Shaolin Temple]

I agree with both points of view. The Ming had its good and bad just as the Ching did.
Murder, raping and etc were common there as it is in every country that becomes the victor.
In the qing dynasty, even the empress dowager was well known to reward people with approx. $5000 worth of gold in todays value for just a simple dish of rice.
Ming fai, you said the qing were simple. Rubbish. During the times of war, they would rather spend money on building huge jade dragon boats then into military.
As a matter of fact...a good friend of mine is the great (times 5) granddaughter of the empress dowager or old Buddha as she was known and when she was in China studying, her family were always spat on.

[Turiyan]

Confusing isnt it? Where are they getting this idea that the Ming dynasty was anything more than it was? The most worthless and non-creative dynasty in, and i'm going out on a limb a bit here, human history.

Vases... Art... Poetry. Peshaw.

"The intellectual machine was not shattered; it simply ran down. No weak spot in their social organism destroyed them from within; no epidemic, in the shape of foreign hordes, fell upon them from without. For in spite of the fact that China offers the unique example of a country that has simply lived to be conquered, mentally her masters have invariably become her pupils. Having ousted her from her throne as ruler, they proceeded to sit at her feet as disciples. Thus they have rather helped than hindered her civilization."
Quote from _The Soul of the far east_ http://encyclopediaindex.com/b/sofre10.htm

"The eventual decline and fall of nomadic dynasties like the Yuan and Qing is because their people absorbed the stupid, effeminate,evil, arrogant, backstabbing, unpatriotic, and inferior complexed Han chinese culture." -- Temujin bilikh

Post-invasion Manchu's are considered by many, ethnically chinese anyways.

Turiyan, Brahmin caste, Ordos clan

The REAL taichi:
http://www.wfdesign.com/tc/
http://www.wustyle.com/108.html

[UnknownAgent]

It's nice to finally see something worthwhile on this forum. Havent read something like this in a long time. I love the myths of kung fu legend and I really dont like having my illusions shattered, but truth is truth and it would be wrong to dismiss it just because I was told otherwise.

Thanks alot MingFai, looking forward to more posts.

Just dont tell me General Kwan didnt exsist, :eek: at that point just cut my head off with a Kwan Do.

[This message was edited by UnknownAgent on 05-04-01 at 04:20 AM.]

[Crimson Phoenix]

Thanks for the extensive history...
It wouldn't surprise me if Qing were much better than what people thought...Mongols are often considered bloody barbarians, but when you dwelve into historical facts, you see that they were very civilized conquerors that highly respected the cultures of the people they conquered...they never slaughtered freely as related (all their killings were moderated and for strategical purposes only).
The silk road was a

[Crimson Phoenix]

Thanks for the extensive history...
It wouldn't surprise me if Qing were much better than what people thought...Mongols are often considered bloody barbarians, but when you dwelve into historical facts, you see that they were very civilized conquerors that highly respected the cultures of the people they conquered...they never slaughtered freely as related (all their killings were moderated and for strategical purposes only).
The silk road was a blooming trail of cultural exchanges and a secure path for merchants and travellers from all countries that couldn't have existed without the mongol's supervision...And I'm not saying this because I have mongol blood in my family tree, rather because mongolians were not the barbarians usually depicted in the world in general and chinese history in particular...Since the Yuan dinasty (the mongolian dynasty overthrown by the Mings in 1364), they have been depicted as such...so why wouldn't the Qing be depicted as such too by Hans who understandably have grieves over the ethny that has taken down their dynasty...the celts were barbarians for the romans, but their culture was evolved as well, only in a different manner.
All of this to say that sometimes history reveals that when you dig a little bit, common facts admitted happen to be fallacious at best.
Frankly, TCMA are full of legends we all believe to a certain extent (humans have always believed legends, nothing wrong with that), and some very serious chinese martial scholars already doubt that Bak Mei existed, that Shaolin had a martial style of its own, and even that Boddhidarma brought any martial technique to the monastery (even the origin of the yijinjing and xisuijing is put in doubt now)...
So why wouldn't this hypothesis of the greatness of Qing and the not-so-good reign of Ming (backed by strong facts) be legitimate too??
Anyway thanks a lot for the creative and constructive topic :-)
Phoenix

[sifuchuck]

Good work on the research, Ming (why choose that screen name if you are anti-Ming? :confused: ), but just a couple things. First, the Ming Dynasty was not the first corrupt Chinese Dynasty that collapsed because the rulers allowed their eunichs to seize power. But that's a different topic.

According to all my sources, Wu Sangui did not surrender to the Chings, but rather, made a deal with them that after they helped subdue the rebellion they were to return to their side of the wall. Stupid? Well, duh, but he was desperate. Even after the Chings broke their word and stayed to conquer China, Wu Sangui fled south and continued to fight against them. Now, do you have sources that contradict this or were you just leaving out some details? Because otherwise, your sources agree with mine.

Oh, and as to your comparative analysis of the two empires, I think your argument is subjective and the parameters you have set in determining what makes a Golden Age "golden," are limited at best. But I like the way you tell the story. Keep it up.
Chuck

[joedoe]

Thanks everyone for the history lessons. I for one don't know enough about Chinese history and really would like to know more.

A few things to remember about history though: 1) You weren't there so you do not know if what you are learning is the actual truth; 2) The victors write the history; 3) People often change the way history is written to suit themselves.

One good example is how the Japanese teach history regarding WWII to their children. They do not teach them that they did anything wrong during the war, and that having the bomb dropped on them was a great injustice.

We teach our children that the Japanese were monsters and deserved to have the bomb dropped on them.

Who is right?

Having said all this, keep bringing on the history. At least if we get different viewpoints we aren't blinded by one version of history.

-------------------------------------
You have no chance to survive - make your time.

[Mencius]

I would like to add this. the Ming dynasty was not as good as the Qing dynasty. It is even a miracle that the Ming dynasty could last for almost 300 years. Every emperor they had was either fatuous or just to lazy to govern his empire. The Qing dnasty had a very good emperor namely Kangxi. He was one of the best emperors of the entire Chinese history.
But don't take my word for it. There are a number of history books that back my story.
As for Wu Sangui, he "borrowed" troops from the Qing empire to subdue the rebels of the Ming dynasty. (At this time the rebels under the leadership of Li ZhiCheng have conquered Beijing, Chongzhen emperor commited suicide.) Li ZhiCheng took Wu SanGui concubine (Chen YuanYuan) as his own. (Chen YuanYuan was the most beautiful woman of that time.) Wu SanGui was furious when he heard
that Li ZhiCheng stole his wife and that was the reason why he collaborated with the Qing empire. After the Qing dynasty was established the Qing emperor conferred him the rank of PingXi Wang (the prince who conquered the west). Many years later he rebelled against the Qing dynasty.

[Ming Fai]

Thank you guys for all your comments and replies.

For those of you who are interested in Qing history, please go to:

http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/ostas/sinol/kangxi.html

[Fu-Pow]

"He who controls the past controls the present; he who controls the present controls the past."
-George Orwell, 1984

History, even modern history...is very, very subjective.

:rolleyes:

Fu-Pow
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"If you are talking about sport that is one thing. But when you are talking about combat-as it is-well then, baby, you'd better train every part of your body" - Bruce Lee