Karate

[Surferdude]

Back to the roots of this post here (http://ase.tufts.edu/karate/katavideos.html) is some katas actually all haha:D
O yea dont look at the last move of chinte!!!:( :mad: :D

[chen zhen]

Too late:rolleyes::D

Thanks for the link.

[chen zhen]

What style is it?

[Surferdude]

Shotokan karate!!!

[chen zhen]

I should have guessed.


"The super-secret death-technique of Shotokan Karate-Do: The Triple Backwards Kangaroo-Jump"

:rolleyes::D

[Surferdude]

****, I told you not to look!!! O well:o :rolleyes:
But you wont be able to do it since you need to have perfect posture:p
And you have to be from NJ!!:p

[chen zhen]

Kangaroo jump!!

HHUUUHH!!

Whaat is it goood for!!

(Springsteen-reference..):cool:

no seriously, what does it do?

[Surferdude]

shhh....its a secret!!!:D :p
Actually I don't know, might be that you're jumping on people. I'm not sure, i'll have to ask my sensei.

[chen zhen]

Yes. Always good to ask your Sensei/Shifu.

It's NOT jumping on people, I tell ya!
CMA has hidden applications in movements, which is not easy to see/feel in forms. I *hope* karate-do has it the same way.

[Surferdude]

Yea it does, cuz i'm confused as hell on this jumping thing!!!:D
you don't know what it is either:D see its a secret hahaha:p :rolleyes:

[chen zhen]

There might be secret techniques in okinawan Te-styles, but not in japanese Karate-do styles.

The okinawans did'nt teach it all to the Japs.;)

[Surferdude]

Thats true....:D But.. I still don't know what those jumps are for.:confused::o :rolleyes: :D ;) :p :eek: :) :confused:

[chen zhen]

It's like when the Aztecs gave tobacco to the Spaniards as a revenge to the whit man.

The Okinawans tought a tech that looks ridiculous to the Japanese.;)

[Samurai Jack]

That "Unsu" kata looks pretty cool though! I especially like the ground fighting techs and that last arial jump kick into a back fall. Looks like the Matrix or sumthin'...

[chen zhen]

Maybe not exactly "matrix" (whaddya mean?), but looks definately cool.:)

[Samurai Jack]

Hey, pretty close to Matrix for a guy without wires. I personally don't like to work that hard for such a small return however.

[chen zhen]

u mean the hight of the jump is matrix-like?

i've seen higher jumps.

[Samurai Jack]

No, I mean that the technique itself is aesthetically pleasing to me, and is reminicent of some of the acrobatic antics I saw in the original film. It's okay to disagree. I haven't done any jump kicks myself as they are not contained in any of the martial arts I've practiced, so I suppose mine is the awe ignorance.

[chen zhen]

oh, ok.

But was it a kick at all? Did'nt he just jump up, spin, and land with all fours on the floor..?

Have to see the Kata again

[chen zhen]

I just saw it again. He jumps up, tucks his legs up like if he was about to do a jumping side-kick, but he does'nt kick, and then spins and lands.

So I can't really judge what the tech is used for..
Surferdude?:o

[Surferdude]

The way the camera is, you can't see the kick, but there is one. its for kicking to the head, probably while jumping over a person on the ground or a leg sweep. Karate doesnt usually have high kicks or many jump kicks, so its kinda hard to say.:confused: :eek: :D but it looks cool!:D

[chen zhen]

yeah...
hey surferdude, vote on my competition!!!:mad:;)

[Surferdude]

No!!!:mad: ..............................



















j/k!!:D

[shaolin kungfu]

What is ninpo?:confused:

[Yung Apprentice]

A woman who can't get enuff nookie. Oh wait..... thats a nympho!:p

[Kristoffer]

I am a CMA. When I was a little kid I was fashinated by comics and Ninja Turtles. When I one day played the Street Fighter arcade game, my life changed. It was then I decided to begin martial art training. Unfortunatly, my mother could not see the difference between MA and violence, so there was not much I could do about it at this young age.

After my father came back from a buissness trip to Japan, he brought back a large 'Handbook' of Karate. It described punches, kicks, throws, katas and training methods. This book became my bible during a long time. I actually learned how to do some hip throws, and some basic kicks etc. My training ground was the school yard were I played fought with my peeps. At this time, Karate was the most intriging martial art I could think of. (except for Capoeira, bcoz that's the style Blanka does in Street Fighter 2)

Flash forward to about a year before I started my Kung Fu. At this time I had read just about everything there was to know about just about every martial art there is. I found out that CMA looked much more fluid and it looked very powerfull compared to the Karate 'stifness'. I fell for the 'talk-crap-bout-karaddy' trap. I found Karate as something inferior.

After a few years of training and alot of experience I have seen good Karate and bad Karate in shows, demonstrations, fights and during sparing. Of course I have come to understand that it is not the style or MA, it is the practioner. There are fighters from any MA that can really do some damage. And of course there are smucks that mostly talks during training.

I can now say that Karate (especially the Okinawa styles) is interesting. I love to see ppl from any style do sparring. We martial artist's must not bash other styles, we should learn as much from eachother as possible.

This is my view of Karate

[Kristoffer]

Now where's my Sukiyaki!!?

:D

[chen zhen]

My view is also that Karate can be very good, if the practicioner can find out how to use it properly, and I like the Okinawan styles best as well. Also, Interesting biography. ;)
SF, huh?:p

[Kristoffer]

daaymn right.. I'm still a huge fan
http://www.godflesh.com/sf/art/st-gba/1/index.html
http://www.godflesh.com/sf/art/st-gba/endings/index.html
http://www.godflesh.com/sf/art/st-gba/2/index.html

[chen zhen]

Great pix, I can make one an avatar if u want so..?

[Kristoffer]

Oh that would b awsome.. I'll send ya some pix later

[dezhen2001]

great post man :)

I have a similar bio, except i began shotokan when i was 8 and trained it up till i was around 20. Was kinda interesting as my school seemed a little different from all the bouncing about backfisting tournament peeps i used to sometimes compete against...

I think my sensei was either a genius or just a downright nasty fighter :D I learned not just the "usual" karaaade stuff, but also locking and basic throws, as well as using the standard blocks and things in a different way, much closer in fighting, simultaneous parry and counter etc. We also touched on some stuff on "anatomically weak points" etc. (not saying pressure points coz theres a lot of ****z involved with that). We did a lot of working kata applications as well as doing a lot of forms and partner work. Not the usual 3 step sparring, was more relaxed and free but still controlled.

Was really fun trying to compete point sparring with what i learned though LOL! I did full contact with it for a while too, and knockdown :)

It really gave me a good foundation in learning how the body works and things. Like Kristoffer said too it seemed a little "rigid" looking back, but it may have just been my level. Im just a small dude 154lbs so what i do now (wing chun and qigong) suits me much more.

Anyway karate = good or bad depending on who and how you train i reckon :)

dawood

[yenhoi]

IMO:

As serious dedicated persons we should reject labels and any notion of style. This should include calling ourselves Martial Artists.

etc.

:eek:

[Surferdude]

Hahahahaha, yes this is a good post... See karate can be good if you know what good karate is...there are alot of McDojos and other places that teach stupid stuff and just want to win tournament trophys...:mad: :D

[chen zhen]

McDojo's are so bad that they CAN'T win trophies.
;)

[Surferdude]

hahahahahaha thats true....but when you have a bunch of McDojos fighting each other its a whole nother story:D

[chen zhen]

Yeah, it's just beeatch-slappin while wearing gi's to be honest.

[Surferdude]

hahahaha yea

[Kristoffer]

I'm glad you guys liked my Karate thread :) Anyway I've read about a top ranking founder of some style that used to punch cows until they droped dead in his demonstrations. I think it was Mas Oyma (?), father of Kyushinkai (?). Someone know anymore about this? Just a rumour?

[apoweyn]

Excluding 5 years in taekwondo, my only experience with karate (shotokan) was in college. Two gym classes with a traditional shotokan teacher that amounted to about... 6 months, all told.

Having come from eskrima, which supposedly emphasizes flow, I found karate very stiff. But just about the end of the semester, I started to realize that it had sod all to do with karate itself and everything to do with me.

It takes a little while to get into the spirit of a style. And I don't mean switching tracks so that you're now a karateka instead of an eskrimador. (I agree with Yenhoi that labels are a bane.) But instead, you start to find the common ground. The concepts behind everything. It's not that shotokan and eskrima and particularly similar. It's more that there's a reality. Attacks coming at you on a straight line can be evaded by getting off of that line. Angling your body at the same time makes you a smaller target in the process. That's a concept. Both styles manifest that concept in ways that are necessarily similar.

So, after a while, I began to feel more comfortable with taisabaki (body angling) and realized that it's really not that different from the triangular footwork of eskrima. An out-to-line block using taisabaki isn't all that different from a sweep block using inside triangle footwork, etc.

What does all that say about karate? No idea.

Perhaps all it says is that style is more about making something your own than about finding something perfect for you.

...

Perhaps not.


Stuart B.

[Surferdude]

Originally posted by Kristoffer
I'm glad you guys liked my Karate thread :) Anyway I've read about a top ranking founder of some style that used to punch cows until they droped dead in his demonstrations. I think it was Mas Oyma (?), father of Kyushinkai (?). Someone know anymore about this? Just a rumour?

I have a book of his but sadly...............he doesnt punch cows in it:D
But if he did punch cows he probably could kill them:D

[dezhen2001]

maybe u should search for the clips dude - they been posted here before i am sure... the cows were a bit past their prime, but still darn impressive stuff! Looking out to the field behind my huse i cant imagine ME trying to face one of those big mothas lol :)

Ap: when i started trianing aikido too, it really make me realise the footwork more... and as im a small guy thew tai-sabaki and things was really useful, it helped me understand application more :)

dawood

[apoweyn]

Dezhen,

Yep. What little aikido I've seen put a premium on footwork too. It's amazing how little stock I put in footwork before. And now, I'm convinced that it's what makes all other things workable (or unworkable if your footwork sucks). Where you're placed in relation to your opponent is a really large part of the game.


Stuart B.

[Kristoffer]

I ****ing hate cows..
So there's clips of it? I couldn't find any on kazaa or the internet, sadly :(

[chen zhen]

Go to Bullshido.

[Shaolinlueb]

there's too much tournament karate these days :(. i like okinawen karate though.

[Surferdude]

Sometimes the "karate" you see on tv isn't even karate...I remember watching a tournament on ESPN and it was called a karate tournament but they did TKD kicks:mad:

And also........Why does eveyone say karate is too stiff???In my dojo were told to stay lose all the time, the only time you tense is the split second of contact with an attack.

[chen zhen]

Cool Karate-Do. Looks chinese-style. (http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1965/mar65/okinawate/kata.html)
The originator (http://shotokan.stanford.edu/funakoshi.gif)
McDojo fo real...:eek: (http://www.renrikan.com/pics/karate3.jpg)
Ho-ish Karate again (http://www.yoseikan.asso.fr/images/mainpage/bigformat/kenpo.jpg)
Good Karate, Shorinji Kenpo. (http://www.pref.kagawa.jp/kokusai/profile/culture/photo/sei_26.jpg)
Shorinji Kenpo 2 (http://balder.prohosting.com/enderby2/shorinji.jpg)
Worthless, but good-looking kick. (http://www.echostation.com/graphics/features/e2sword/ep2sword6.jpg)

[Surferdude]

cool!!!!
Hahahaha when you see tape on a belt you know its a McDojo:D

[chen zhen]

lol, did'nt even see that..:p

I looked more on the ponytail with the Karate-kid bandana around his head..;)

[dezhen2001]

shorinji kempo isnt karate!!!!

i studied it for 5 years and shotokan too... the body movement and power generation is totally different....

but its a frikkin good style :)

just to clear that up ;)

dawood

[Surferdude]

Originally posted by chen zhen
lol, did'nt even see that..:p

I looked more on the ponytail with the Karate-kid bandana around his head..;)

That too.......or mullets!!!:eek: :D :p

[chen zhen]

OK, thanks for the correction Dez.:)

[dezhen2001]

no problem buddy...

if you read the history of the style, the founder Doshin So actually studied kung fu in china (in Japanese Shorin Giwamonken or something i think, not sure what it is in chinese), as well as some other Japanese arts. But didnt study Karate at all, or at least if he did in a very limited exposure.

The HQ of the Shorinji Kempo organisation was set up on one of the Southern Islands in 1947 (forget which one), not on the "mainland" as it were. The one directly south of Kyushu i think :)

I know from my own practise that Kempo emphasises full body movement and full twist/extension of the waist and hips to generate power for the front and back punch etc. More like boxing in a way. They also dont at all bring the hands to the hips like karate do, instead having an actual guard :D Also when punching, the hand is not rotated like the standard karate punch, instead it is a vertical fist. Some small differences, but i think u see what i mean... :)

Its a heck of a lot more "fluid" than karate is, and the way those dudes can flow from striking to grappling and throwing is pretty friggin cool if u ask me :cool:

When i first met my friend at work who became my sensei, he was only a 1st dan in Kempo and took me apart even though he had only been training 6 years to my almost 10 :(

dawood

[chen zhen]

I saw some Shorinji people at a french MA demo (in tv;)), adn they were frikkin great. I'll try to find more, and I think I'll make a thread dedicated to it.

[dezhen2001]

go for it, its good stuff...

if u go over to e0budo there are probably plenty of threads on it coz a regular poster there called Steve Williams is actually the highest ranked british guy in Shorinji :)

dawood

[Surferdude]

Originally posted by chen zhen
I saw some Shorinji people at a french MA demo (in tv;)), adn they were frikkin great. I'll try to find more, and I think I'll make a thread dedicated to it.

Theres MA in France????:eek:
Or were the people just french???:confused:

[chen zhen]

MA is more popular in france than in any other country in the world.
I think theres like 1 million Judo practicioners alone:eek:
(or maybe it was 0.5 million, doesnt matter really:D)

[Surferdude]

Yes!!! Gonna go over there and beat em all in a competion and get banned from France!!!!!!!:D :D

[chen zhen]

Ur a freak, u know dat?
:p

-cz

[Surferdude]

Yep:D

[chen zhen]

Try to be more serious around here some times, u know? I like you, but u will be more respected if u do this.
I'm speaking of personal experience.

[Surferdude]

ok

[chen zhen]

Just look at my "stabbed to death" thread. It went horribly wrong.:(

[Surferdude]

Yea I know

[Kristoffer]

I'd like to see SurferDude trying to kick Jerome LeBanner's ass :) I wish you good luck.

Good links to Okinawan Karate BTW

[chen zhen]

SurferDude is da shiznit.;)

Our Karate-Do ambassador. A bit immature, but hey, arent we all that in some way...?

:D

[Kristoffer]

u callin me immature, *****?





















































































































































































































































































;)

[Kristoffer]

Mas Oyma link:
http://crane.50megs.com/index6w.htm

[Surferdude]

Hey i'm back!!!
A bit immature am i,well i'll tell you!...O wait, I am nevermind:o :D :p
And i could kick Jerome LeBanners ass!!!:D :p

[chen zhen]

do it!

:cool:

[Kristoffer]

If I was big like Sagat and in that leage there's a good chance I would compete alot. Sad though that people tend to give more respect to large gorilla ppl than the average sized joe. This year I have made a few decisions:
1. Train for mass. And in a few years I'll look back and see if I'm satisfied.

2. Train for reality and less for competition

3. Eat ice cream

[Vash]

Originally posted by Surferdude
Hahahaha when you see tape on a belt you know its a McDojo:D

What makes you say that? Saves money on those extremely highpriced $5 belts.

[Surferdude]

hahahahaha

Usually when your in a traditional dojo you keep the same belt...no black stripes on it or anything, but it does help people see who's the higher ranking

[Vash]

Indeed. But, not really a traditionally minded man myself (crap, hope sensei don't see that).

Down with electrical tape, up with miniskirts!

[Surferdude]

This is what karate I do!
Shotokan Karate (http://www.iskf.com)
:D

And this is my dojo
Kobukan Karate Club (http://www.kobukankarate.com)
:D

[chen zhen]

IS this the classes u go to? (http://www.kobukankarate.com/page9.html)

:p

[Surferdude]

No, I go to adult classes...but those kids could kick your ass easily!!!:D ;)

[chen zhen]

Blaah, talk talk

:D

[Surferdude]

come on look at that form, look at the power!!!:D

[Kristoffer]

If I get kids in the future I will train them to kill all karaddy-kids in my area ;)

[Surferdude]

:o :rolleyes:

[Xixor]

Originally posted by Surferdude


Theres MA in France????:eek:
Or were the people just french???:confused:


I've heard of something called savate . I dunno if its just a kick, or a whole style, but I usually hear it associated with france. Anyone wanna enlighten me?

[chen zhen]

www.savateaustralia.com

Else, MA in general is reeal big in France. more than 2 million people practice some form of MA. Divide that with the number of people living there:eek:

[Xixor]

Whoa, nice! I've never liked boxing as a martial art, way too esy to break your hand and such, but this explains it all. Good stuff, good stuff. This is a worthy form to practice in my opinion.

[Kristoffer]

crap, the crunchy karate thread is clapped

[Kristoffer]

I don't care....



DIE YOU WH0RE

[Vash]

Death to Karate

[chen zhen]

..

[Kristoffer]

heh

[Kristoffer]

DIE YOU WH0RE

DIE YOU WH0RE

DIE YOU WH0RE

DIE YOU WH0RE

DIE YOU WH0RE

DIE YOU WH0RE

[Mr Punch]

I seem to remember reading that Mas Oyama said something about karate winning with power after three years of training, and kungfu winning with technique/flow after ten, if the same practitioners were to fight again.

Can anyone tell me, was it Mas Oyama?

What exactly was the quote?

What was his kungfu experience with which practitioners of what style?

[Mr Punch]

And yeah, I know Royce would choke both fighters out.

That's not in the question!:D

[Sekabin]

Was this in one of your daydreams? ;)

[Ging Mo Fighter]

Hey everyone

I might be travelling to Japan sometime soon, and I was thinking of studying some Karate whilst I was there (hopefully there will be fewer mcdojo's)

Just wondering what some of the most popular, and/or effective styles of karate you have seen are?

Personally, Shotokan, Kyukushin and Wado ryu come to mind?

Was also thinking of checking out some authentic japanese Judo (Apparently Jigoro Kano's Judo clan beat a jujitsu school) so im guess there might be some hardcore Judo places as well?

Anything else worth checking out in japan, let me know?!

[Gangsterfist]

I took an okinawan karate called Ryukyu Kempo. It was a complete system with katas, weapons, etc. It is what they trained the Bushi warriors back in the day. It also has grappling, pressure point fighting, and ground fighting. Overall its not a bad system, but its pretty external. My sigong (don't know the japanese word for it) was a man named taika Oyata (not sure if that is spelled right). I took about 3 years or so of it before I ever took WC. Its different, but overall I don't think it was that bad of a system. Plus I got to learn how to use the Sai's and bo staff which was fun. I never got high enough ranked in class to train kitana/wakizashi, but I would have loved to. Here go some links.

http://www.ryushu.com/oyata.html

Taika is pretty old now but I saw him at a tournament about 10years ago doing a demo. He was in his 60s then and took on 6 teachers of Ryukyu kempo at the same time with a cane, and beat the holy snot out of them. It was great.

[SevenStar]

If you are into okinawan styles, try to find a good shorin school.


Kano's guys beat TJJ guys, by the way, not bjj - there was no bjj back then.

the tjj guys trained in a less efficient manner - more techniques, no sparring. the judoka did the opposite - more specialized range of techniques, plenty of drilling and sparring.

[Ray Pina]

I learned Isshin-Ryu growing up... it's a powerful, get right to it, I can take your punch but kill you with mine type of style. (not what I'm looking for in a style now but admittedly have as a mind set ... still young, dumb and full of cum).

My sensei's sensei wold climb a ladde, lean over. push it away and land on his knuckles. He had knuckles on top of his knuckles. I have some photos too from when I was a kid with sledge hammers and bricks and all kinds of beat the hell out of yourself training.

[Vash]

OMA: Isshinryu, Gojuryu, Shorinryu, Uechiryu, Ryukyu Kenpo.

Don't have any positive experience with the Japanese karate styles I've come across.

For the record, I'm biased towards Isshinryu.

[rogue]

video of kata from Shotokai branch of Shotokan (http://aiur.eii.us.es/~kobukan/videos_de_las_katas_oficiales_de.htm)

[Nick]

Goju. It's a great style. Any Okinawan style is, really.

Later...

[norther practitioner]

I don't know much about the JMAs or OMAs.... but I have liked the Goju I've seen.

[ZhouJiaQuan]

from personal experience. if you really want to study karate... Shorin-ryu or goju-ryu. both are pretty good, and i know some friends of mine study them and can fight well.(these people would fight well no matter what style though)

i think find a good teacher...


actually, even better...find a yakuzua school/boss/gangster that teaches karate...pretty much gauranteed good fighting ;)

have fun :D

[PT-Kali]

If you have the guts and pain tolerance I suggest Kyokushinkai. Don't say I didn't warn you...

[Songshan]

I studied Shotokan Karate for about 2 years before I began studying Shaolin. Shotokan karate is a good strong Okinawan based style. It is very similar to Gojo ryu and Shorin ryu. In fact some of the katas are very similar. I also found that Shotokan's Kumite (sparring) was very useful and simple for real fight situations. I would agree with the post that says studying any Okinawan art is beneficial. Learning in Japan is very different and there are probably no "Mc Dojos" over there. So its worth looking into.

[GOLDEN ARMOR]

Ozzies check it out.

Just started 8:30

[norther practitioner]

How was it?

[rogue]

Well my love affair with karate continues. Besides the Okinawan style I'm learning I've also taken a few private lessons from a Shotokan sensei who was an inner circle student of a high ranked sensei. Looks like there is more to Shotokan than I thought and that is lethal techniques and how to train them. Lethal being a cool sounding word that in this case means choking, breaking, hitting "secret" vital points and slamming the opponent into the ground. For some odd reason the training version of the techniques look very much like MMA. The lethal/actual techniques look like MMA would if the guys in the ring wanted to kill each other rather than win the purse, a belt and a snapshot with the ring girl. The philosophy was pound, ground and pound again all done in as short a time as possible. The blocky stiff execution Shotokan is known for was not evident in the least with all techniques being done as simultaneous as possible. Ground fighting was minimal but he did use an open guard on me and swept me when I did one of the throws wrong and tried to regain control.

Funny how the lethal techniques of a classical art would look so much like the techniques of a "mere" ring sport. :D

[WanderingMonk]

how do you know that they are teaching you karate? It is entirely possible that they are just selling MMA under the karate brand. do they have secret manuals which show these moves were originally developed in the hidden, dangerous, bad side of street of okinawa?

Obviously that this is just a way to milk money out of innoncent americans.











j/k

[Vash]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk
how do you know that they are teaching you karate? It is entirely possible that they are just selling MMA under the karate brand. do they have secret manuals which show these moves were originally developed in the hidden, dangerous, bad side of street of okinawa?

Obviously that this is just a way to milk money out of innoncent americans.











j/k

WE ARE UNDONE!!!!

Congrats on finding a quality Shotokan group. I've not had the pleasure of running into anything resembling high quality in regards to Shotokan, but this area is not a mecca for martial arts.

[Starchaser107]

is anywhere?

[Kristoffer]

France

[rogue]

Not a group Vash, just one sensei.


how do you know that they are teaching you karate? It is entirely possible that they are just selling MMA under the karate brand. do they have secret manuals which show these moves were originally developed in the hidden, dangerous, bad side of street of okinawa?

Not a bad point really. I asked why you don't see these in many Shotokan schools and asked half jokingly if they were "secret" techniques. I was told to read the text in Karate-Do Kyohan instead of just looking at the pictures. Sure enough almost everything I was being shown was mentioned. So no secrets, but a bunch of common sense about everything from self defense (run and only fight as a last resort) to sparring( don't worry about looking perfect). Funakoshi never wrote in a very detailed manner and seems to assume that the reader knows what he's talking about.

I've never been impressed with the Shotokan that I've seen until now. Didn't someone here post an article on the throws of shotokan or karate throws vs chinese throws?

[red5angel]

Not a bad point really.


Although he was kidding, I think that is the irony of doing the martial arts. The human body can only move so many ways, with some subtle differences thrown in. Alot of things end up looking similar, or the same for that reason.

[Vash]

Originally posted by rogue
Not a group Vash, just one sensei.

Ah, well, if that's the case then I can continue to carry on my opinion that ShotoCon is a horrible, horrible martial art and serves the purpose of distorting the true fighting history!!!!!!!

:eek: :D

[rogue]

Just one sensei that I'm training with Vash, there are many others. What should I expect from someone who punches funny. I had asked his opinion about the state of Shotokan and to him it was no big deal. It's just the way it always was and will always be. Some people are happy with marching up and down a dojo, others want more and will find it. Right now the easiest place to find meat are in ring sports, but others are happy with a Slim Fast shake.


The human body can only move so many ways,Exactly Red, I think MP has been trying to bang that point home for a long time. The differences are in the training and intent of that training.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by rogue
Didn't someone here post an article on the throws of shotokan or karate throws vs chinese throws?

That was me.

[Vash]

rogue;

what Okinawan style do you do?

[rogue]

That was me. 7*, could you post that link again?

Vash, I do some mishmash style that mixes Goju and Shorin. The guy who started it couldn't remember the beginner kata so he made up some drills to take their place. The founders name means Dragging Man or something like that. :p

[Vash]

Sounds like a crappy system to me. :D

[Vash]

Just got "The Karate of Choki Motobu" on VHS yesterday. Think I'm gonna go hook up the VCR and check it out.

It's got the history of Motobu, plus demonstrations of Choki's two Naihanchi sets, as well as his twelve two-man drills.

everything's demonstrated by Chosei Motobu, Choki's son, and Takeji Inaba. I'll edit in my review later on.

edit:

The Best karate video I've ever paid money for. Simple, realistic. I love it. You can skip the history part, the first few minutes, though, if you've done any serious research on Motobu, or if you've read Motobu Choki's My Karate. (http://www.fightingarts.com/estore/catalog_books_karate.shtml) Oh, buy that book to. And here's the link for the tape. (http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Tsunami/Pages/section2.htm)

Sorry to be pushing non MAM material, Gene, but this is some must-have stuff for karate peeps, whether they are involved with the Okinawan styles, or the Japanese derivitives.

Seriously whacked out stuff. Ug wanna go practice Naihanchi now.

[cerebus]

Great Vash! I've been wanting to get that vid for awhile now. Motobu was a badazz mofo! Though I'm currently a Hsing-I/ Bagua guy, I also hold Shodan rank in Shotokan which I learned from various military Karate instructors. Most of my instructors were strong believers that the kata were full of down & dirty street fighting techniques and that if an application (bunkai) didn't make sense and work at high speed, then it was wrong.

I'm always amazed at some of the ridiculous applications I see being passed of as Bunkai. And the people who practice kata as though they were stiff-jointed robots are also doing THAT wrong. The movements should be smooth and fast. Think "panther", not "robot" ;) .

[rogue]

I've been eye balling that vid too Vash, if you say it's good I'm going to go get me a copy.

cerebus, this guy is ex-military too. Was there a certain dojo that you went to that they taught at? I never thought of Shotokan as an inside art but this guy was oi-zuki as a lead in and after that it was all elbows, knees and stomps. And if anybody is wondering about that chambering at the hip habit, it's really good when you're really, really close inside. He'd press in adn kept jamming my arm when I used a boxers guard. An inside

What I'm now wondering is did Funakoshi teach this and then drop it from most of the curriculum? **** Kyohan makes passing references to things but doesn't show many examples.

[Vash]

Originally posted by rogue
I've been eye balling that vid too Vash, if you say it's good I'm going to go get me a copy.

And if anybody is wondering about that chambering at the hip habit, it's really good when you're really, really close inside. He'd press in adn kept jamming my arm when I used a boxers guard.

Indeed, get the tape. Then love it. And that chamber you mentioned, well, it's not explained verbally, but you get to see what it's about. Solid, solid stuff. I just plugged it in, fast forwarding past the history. My gimp ass is gonna walk through all this stuff.

Fugging awesome.

[cerebus]

No, there's no particular "dojo" that military guys train at. You're usually stationed at any given base for 1 or 2 years at a time and you just train at whichever schools are available or start a training group with other military martial artists.

I think that might be why some military martial artists are able to use their stuff in a wide variety of situations. We just trained with whoever was available, wrestlers, Judoka, Karate, Kung Fu, Taekwondo, Jeet Kune Do, Hapkido, etc. And alot of these guys have learned their arts while stationed in the art's countries of origin.

[rogue]

Thanks C. The comparing of styles some military guys get is great.

Going to get it next paycheck Vash.

[IronFist]

Some guys in TKD uniforms are kicking boards with running side kicks right now. I've never seen this before so I think I'll watch it for a while.

Some dude's gonna break 13 slabs of concrete with his elbow but they have spacers.

Hey, he got it. I wonder how many he could get without spacers.

Another dude just tried for 14, but he only got 13 of them. He ran up and jumped in the air in order to generate more power for his strike.

[IronFist]

Get this, if it's a tie, they go by PERCENTAGE broken and not NUMBER broken.

So if guy A breaks 15/15 and guy B breaks 15/16, guy A would win cuz he got 100%. Strange.

[IronFist]

Some guy just ran and dove through columns of ice. That was his break. wtf?

[IronFist]

Now they're doing open hand forms. Why is eveyrone screaming so much? Every time this girl moves she's all "AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Holy crap is that part of karate now?

[SiuHung]

Now they're doing open hand forms. Why is eveyrone screaming so much? Every time this girl moves she's all "AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Holy crap is that part of karate now?

I saw it too.

It's either **** funny :D , or **** sad... :(

[gwa sow]

i've seen tha stuf before. i cant stand it. the most i've seen broken on that stuff is 16 or 17 by some big fat guy(imagine that) he jumped up and landed on the stack with his elbow. lets see them try all that stuff with no spacers. watching their forms is so annoying to me. they screem a lot do a bunch of fancy twirly stuff and they are done. kinda like a bad american version of modern wushu. i wish espn would show some more traditional stuff not just that extreme M.A. garbage. they had a wushu guy on there once and he worked everyone.

[Wood Dragon]

Now they're doing open hand forms. Why is eveyrone screaming so much? Every time this girl moves she's all "AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Holy crap is that part of karate now?


I made the mistake of going to the Battle of Atlanta a couple of years ago. All the screaming made the place sound like a nuthouse. Don't get me started about the "musical/creative forms" division, or the toothpick thin graphite "bo" these people use. Also, point-sparring.......

[Kristoffer]

Breaking bricks/rocks/ice is impressive.. Breaking wood and ''concrete'' :rolleyes: is not

[Reign-Of-Terror]

so why is ku yu cheing more impressive than these guys than? cause most shaolin people think hes badass jsut because he does a brick breaking iron palm.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Now they're doing open hand forms. Why is eveyrone screaming so much? Every time this girl moves she's all "AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" Holy crap is that part of karate now?

yeah, i was more afraid of her bark than her 'skills'. she could deafen you if you were near by.

i thought the girl-kid with the mettalic staff might have some potential for additional staff and pole arm forms.

but you know, none of thier performance forms were balanced in terms of demonstrating skills. for example the girl that did high back kicks could only do them with one leg. and the girl who did the 'fast' forward sidekicks couldn't even extend to a straight or full extension of the kick movement.

one of the forms (skinny african american) looked like a karat-i-fied version of the hong hawk step.

the guy named lu i've seen before. he tries to add soft stuff to his floor routine ( like this time he added 'lifting the sky' with the advanced stance position) but he always gets scored lower for doing more chinese orientated skills.

but that's several of the reasons Paul Mitchel is known for: Performance Martial Arts. if it looks good (flashy) they'll put it on. the more karate it looks the better it is for them. thier dynasty comments are basically true: they favour certain school lineages in thier competitions.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

Breaking bricks/rocks/ice is impressive.. Breaking wood and ''concrete'' :rolleyes: is not

their main breaking competition was several weeks ago. this year the bricks were really hard. you could see the cracks the force made through the unbroken bricks sometimes four bricks down the stack from the last broken one.

in tonights breaking there was one guy whom, i think, clearly demonstrated chi in his technique ans the bricks were breaking two or three bricks ahead of his foot with a clear compresion wave ahead of the penetrating block. was that lu again?

[Kristoffer]

any vids? of the breaking I mean

[whitefox]

All show and no go. :D

[Brad]

so why is ku yu cheing more impressive than these guys than? cause most shaolin people think hes badass jsut because he does a brick breaking iron palm.
For one thing, he didn't use spacers, didn't have to jump at the bricks, etc. He also put a whoopin' on a number of people, or so I've heard ;)

[Shaolinlueb]

spacers make things easier to break. but i think breaking anyting is hard enough. a lot of those guys have shaky hands and stuff if you notice too.

[gwa sow]

so why is ku yu cheing more impressive than these guys than? cause most shaolin people think hes badass jsut because he does a brick breaking iron palm.


dont forget he helped to continue/spread bak sil lum around china. without him there would be very little of it, if any, left. and also the story with the horse is kinda cool also

[IronFist]

For one thing, he didn't use spacers, didn't have to jump at the bricks, etc. He also put a whoopin' on a number of people, or so I've heard ;)

Here's the famous pic. There might be spacers. You can't really tell:

http://www.harmoniousfist.com/images/2.jpg

It looks like there are spaces at the ends of the bricks, but not in the middle. Strange. Anyway, on the page (http://www.harmoniousfist.com/kuyucheung.html) that pic is from, there are some more pics of him and some more info.

It definately doesn't look like he jumped in that pic, tho. He could have broken it with a jump and then posed for that pic, tho.

[Vash]

ESPN2 has not had karate on it, nor do I think it will.

THat tournament garbage? That's XMA and XMA-lite. Nothing karate about it.

[Reign-Of-Terror]

dont forget he helped to continue/spread bak sil lum around china. without him there would be very little of it, if any, left. and also the story with the horse is kinda cool also

but bak sil lum is not taught at shaolin anymore is it? its mostly now only taught and learned by hobbyists in niche circles like the majority of kung fu in China. Also the story with the horse I read is a controversy that some say happened and some didnt.

[Brad]

A lot of things aren't practiced at Shaolin now. Doesn't mean it's not practiced elsewhere... hence the part where he said: "helped to continue/spread bak sil lum around china. without him there would be very little of it, if any, left." There's a good reason why it's often said as "Bak Sil Lum" and not "Bei Shaolin" ;) And from mainland China, it ended up in Hong Kong, Taiwan, and the rest of the world. I don't think he meant that everyone in China are Bak Sil Lum masters today :p

Hobbyists help kungfu teachers put food on the table ;) All it takes is a few hardcore students to keep the art alive, though :)

And yes, the horse thing may or may not have happened. Too bad no one thought to take a video camera to the event ;)

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

last night they had a spoof on at about the same time.

the guys had difficulty breaking paper and thin cardboard. but they obviously had good fun doing it. :)

[GeneChing]

Teh IOC just dropped baseball and softball from the 1012 London Olympic Games. Some are pointing their fingers at the US (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-oly-sports-dropped-cuba,1,4179768.story?coll=sns-ap-sports-headlines) because we have a strange partition between pro-athletes and Olympians. I'm sort of glad that it was baseball and softball to go, since the other two that were in jeopardy were both martial: tae kwon do & pentathalon (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/12060165.htm). This might open two spots and the five events that the IOC are considering are: Golf, Rugby, Squash, Roller Sports (?) and Karate.

[Oso]

which version of karate rules?

I think I'd heard WKF but I'm not sure.


shouldn't be all be chanting 'san shou, san shou, san shou' ?

does San Shou have any sort of world govorning body?

[SevenStar]

thai boxing would be good... they'd have to change the name though.

I'm thinking we won't see karate or san shou, as they already have to somewhat similar couterparts already part of the olympics - boxing and TKD. I think mma or pankration or something would be a great event though.

[Chief Fox]

I don't know how it is in other countries but in the US. the sports that get all the television air time are track and field, swimming and gymnastics. All the other sports are reported on briefly or are aired at late hours on obscure channels. I remember the last summer games when I wasn't even able to find any tae kwon do matches. Maybe I should get TiVo.

I'm not really interested in seeing any Karate point sparring. It would be nice to have an open martial arts tournament where people from different styles could compete. San shou would be neat to see.

[Shaolinlueb]

so karate gets bid but no wushu? wtf :( :mad:

[GeneChing]

I'm not sure which rules of Karate, but they've been in the running for a while now. The international governing body for San Shou, or we should say Sanda, is the IWuF, the same that governs modern wushu taolu. Unfortunately, Sanda has not had international female competition until recently, so it couldn't be entered in Beijing's wushu bid. As for Olympic wushu, it was rejected a while back. China is still making appeals, and they have a shot at getting wushu in as a demo sport, but it's next to impossible for them to get it in as a medal event now. I did an e-zine article (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=368) on the hopes of wushu going Olympic when Beijing won the bid.

[SPJ]

TKD is very popular in Taiwan.

Taiwan is considering hosting the 2020 Olympiad.

The idea is that since the Mexico city hosted in 1968. So Er or Soul hosted in 1988;

Taiwan has Olympian Golds why not be a host.

:confused: :D :cool:

[X_plosion]

Regarding Muay Thai, the governing body for its amateur competition is indeed pushing to make it an Olympic event. They have dropped the "Thai" suffix of the name, in order to make the system more "international" sounding.

Across Southeast Asia, the Muay art is being introduced to grassroots level by accredited teachers in order to build a good base of competitors. Here's hoping they succeed.

[norther practitioner]

The whole baseball and softball thing is bunk man. It's like, do you actually think there are more people interested in sync. swimming or table tennis... who the hell won the gold in table tennis... come on now.... 50 meter air rifle.. give me a break.

This move was done shady, the IOC is a bunch of punk ass wannabe policals that don't know sport from a jock strap. the only thing they do OK with is the winter games, which is like 10 times sicker than the summer. Then Cuba opens there mouth and blames the MLB... Truth be told, we get punked in the olympics when we send our amatures, and ridiculed when we send our pros, even by the other countries that send their pros. Oh, and last time I checked, South America, Central America, South Korea, Japan, and a few European baseball teams were as good, if not better than the US. Look at what type of team the Dominican Rep. could field in baseball, Japan and Cuba would have sick teams too.

Now, that rant being said, I would love to see more martial in the olympics.

[Mr Punch]

Karate is out.

They decided not to replace baseball/softball, so the games are down to 26.

The head of the international baseball thingy (some Italian) said they thought it was because they couldn't attract any top level players. Seems like a daft reason to me... means you're just gonna get games where there's no pro game to speak of... so interest is gonna wane.

Not that I care about baseball... cricket should be in there anyways!!! :p :eek:

[GLW]

In regards to Wushu (Taolu or Sanshou) getting an IOC nod, I would not expect it to happen unless the IWuF ponied up with a big sum of money and such under the table.

The problems:

Although there ARE IWuF recognized bodies in enough countries to make a show for a bid to the IOC, the level of most of the countries is low.

The training for judges is totally controlled by the PRC and done at the whim of the IWuF. In roughly 10 years of having an IWuF recognized organization in the US and the Pan AM Fed, PAWF, there has only been one non-China based judges training. Really hard to grow an event when you have to have people go to china for 2 or 3 weeks on their own nickel...and then not even know if they are going to get certified at the end of the time. (Some of the training sessions ended with qualified people NOT being certified because of PRC/IWuF politics)

You would be hard pressed to have the IOC justify the addition of any event where one country would have a lock on all of the medals. Taolu is just that way. China MAKES the rules, creates the forms, does the training materials. When they created the new set of compulsories, China was training on them for a full year before the rest of the world had ready access to the documentation.

All of this mixed together - not much of a chance. Personally, I would LOVE to see both Taolu and Sanshou in the Olympics. BUT...if I were on the IOC, there is now way, knowing what I know about the IWuF and how things are, that I would ever vote to let it become an event.

[GreenCloudCLF]

The breaks this guy does is unbelievable. Check out the Chi generation for his last demonstration.

Karate Master Breaks (http://www.compfused.com/directlink/873)

[WanderingMonk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMjGQk-k2ZA

[SevenStar]

nice clip! There was a beautiful tai otoshi thrown early on and a very nice ippon seionage at the end. good stuff in between too. I guess elbows and headbutts were allowed because of the headgear they wore.

[Oso]

GREAT clip.


from below the clip


Karate, usualy styles originating out of the kyokushin style which has a long history of bareknuckle full contact competition and kickboxing connections, has begun to adapt competition closer to the Mixed martial art(MMA) format. Daido juku is one of those karate styles (originaly splintering out from kyokushin karate in 1981), starting to spread out from japan.



Using helmets, they allow headbuts, groinkicks, basicaly anything. Including limited time grappling.

[Vash]

If we had THAT type of ruleset in karate tournies, I'd compete again.

That is seriously hardcore.

[Becca]

If we had THAT type of ruleset in karate tournies, I'd compete again.

That is seriously hardcore.

But there are some that are close. (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=665658#post665658)

[Vash]

Oi!

*glee*

[ChinoXL]

I'm wondering wht do ppl think about that? I know it's linear, direct (basic) however how about effectiveness? such as cross trained with boxing // judo // wrestling // or even kung fu? I'm no troll but I want a opinion about karate or am i trying to learn too much?

[SPJ]

It is good.

It used to be called China hand, Tang hand or To De. There are soft parts/ruo shou and Ki/Chi gong, too. tiger/crane?

When I was in high school in 1970's, there are more people in TKD than karate and even Kuo Shu club.

Nowadays, there are also MMA, BJJ club etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karate

:)

[B-Rad]

It can be good, but of course it's the most widely used martial arts name around... so naturally you've gotta look a bit harder to find the good schools :)

[David Jamieson]

Nothing wrong with Karate. It's about what floats your boat.

[EarthDragon]

Before kung fu I studied Karate for 6 years and liked it very much. it was effective for what it was and its a great art.
Also it is not as basic as you think and the style I trained Go Ju Ryu was very circular...... well at least in the higher levels, but yes it started linear. But many people spend thier lives learning it nothing wrong with that

[BruceSteveRoy]

i think karate is good in some regards and not so good in others. same with any style. i have never seen really advanced practitioners fight but from what i have seen it is too mechanical and tends to leave the fighter too open when fighting people that are good at using angles. however, it seems to me that the fighters tend to be good at power generation. when they land strikes or blocks they tend to do so with a lot of force. but (even though it is becoming a cliche around here) its the fighter that makes the difference.

as for kata. i find them boring, repetitive and robotic when compared to chinese forms. just my opinion.

of the karate styles i have seen the one i think is most effective is goju. it blends hard and soft aspects of fighting and as a result makes the fighter more versatile than some of the other styles. i may be wrong with some or all of this. so if there are any ppl on here that know more about karate feel free to correct me.

[ChinoXL]

hm.. would it mesh with kung-fu? wu-tang which consist of tan-tuei mantis and then baji

[SPJ]

no expert but;

Ba Ji: bear waist/stance and tiger back/arm. Hu Bei Xiong Yao.

Mantis: mantis arms and monkey/chicken steps.

Karate: tiger or crane?

:D

[The Willow Sword]

You have to watch it though with the term "karate". when you see that word being displayed out front on the sign of the school, 9 times out of 10 it is just a marketing ploy to get you in the door. You then realize that you just walked in to a TKD school or some other Korean derivitive. Not to suggest that korean martial arts are bad, quite the contrary. A true Japanese Karate school is tough to find these days. Most of what i see here in Austin are hybrid systems that incorporate many styles of korean and JMA.

I like Japanese Karate, expecially the Shotokan Dojo's. Very disciplined and very traditional. my first introduction in to martial arts way back when i was a wee lad was Shotokan, And Aikido.

Peace,TWS

[Fu-Pow]

It sucks because its not MMA....just like everything else.

FP

[Shaolinlueb]

i like watching other martial arts performed by good practioniers. but most of it is junk sport stuff that sucks i think. and a lot of karate has become so americanized.

[SPJ]

Like so many others;

Beware of the instant culture and belt garantee gimmick?

:)

[rogue]

I do karate. I use the generic because what I do is a mix of several styles. I'm training under someone who actually got to the soft part that we always hear about but rarely see anybody in karate do.

[SanHeChuan]

I'm in shorin ryu Okinawa karate. The forms are linear and repetitive and boring. But the techniques them selves are not bad at all. There are very few techniques in the style, with several variations. Which allows you to master the basics. Which everyone can agree is necessary. I don't agree with the way it is taught, because I feel like instead of building on what you have learned, you reinvent what you learn.
But I also think that last opinion would change the more I study the style. And they say tense when they should be saying relax.

The more advanced you become the more relaxed and Chinese like your karate becomes. The blocks, which I don't think many understand are in fact deflections, could be applied very similar to basic Wing Chun. With the right eyes karate can be very much like kung fu.

I think I see the kung fu in it more readily because that is my back ground. Where as someone with out that back ground would be slower do develop an effective kung like style through karate. Naturally I believe the more kung fu like principals a style has the better.

I'd rather be studying Kung fu. :cool:

[BlueTravesty]

I'd rather be studying Kung fu. :cool:

That's SO gonna be my bumper sticker someday :D

I also did Shorin Ryu, when I was a wee lad. It was a pretty cool style for what it was, and we did get to some of the "soft parts." Eventually Sensei started to emphasize relaxation, flow, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm gonna study MyJhong as long as I am able, but Shorin Ryu isn't bad as far as Karate goes. Hope it goes well with you :)

[Nick Forrer]

You might want to read what this guy has to say on the subject. He was one of (if not the) top karate guys in this country before jacking it all in.

I train MMA with him now

At 62 years of age he is still a brilliant MAist. My leg is still numb from the thai kick I got from him yesterday.:eek:

Steve Morris (http://www.morrisnoholdsbarred.co.uk/)

Here is an excerpt:

'I've got serious grievances with individuals within karate who completely misled me, and in whom I'd put my trust. With regard to the technical aspects, my criticisms were always constructive and intended to correct problems—and when it comes to traditional karate's movement and training methods, there are a lot of those. But my most serious differences with karate are in the moral and ethical area. The martial arts in general is a dirty business. People get ripped off right and left, you've got 'masters' making money hand over fist through dojo fees, grading, insurance, books, videos, courses—all in support of a product that is the equivalent of a Robin Reliant sold at Rolls Royce prices. Morally speaking, in my 40 years of observing these things, I've known of some real scumbags, some of whom are at the top of the hierarchy, whose station seemed to protect them from any accountability with regard to their sexual misconduct, their brutalization of students, and similar corruption.

Karate has no reality-based ways by which to test the combative effectiveness of its training and fighting methods, concepts and principles, etc. Its only claim to being combatively effective is by way of choreographed displays, dropping some overcompliant stooge with some specialized strike, breaking prepared materials in sheer, playing a game of tag (i.e., competitions), or anecdotal evidence. Therefore, karate provides a suitable niche for those who have realised that they haven't the character to put themselves in situations (whether in training or in competition), in which there is every possibility that they will receive a battering, win or lose. However, they have nevertheless also realised that they can create the illusion of being combatively effective without ever having to fight, simply by way of achieving a high grade or title, acquiring 'deadly secret knowledge' of anatomical weaknesses and the various ways to attack them, etc. Karate also harbours those who, as they rise through the ranks, realise that they can use their seniority to intimidate and physically abuse those they know haven't the ability or psychological strength to fight back, or who submit out of some misguided respect or belief that the beatings they receive are part of their dojo initiation. '

[Shaolindynasty]

'I've got serious grievances with individuals within karate who completely misled me, and in whom I'd put my trust. With regard to the technical aspects, my criticisms were always constructive and intended to correct problems—and when it comes to traditional karate's movement and training methods, there are a lot of those. But my most serious differences with karate are in the moral and ethical area. The martial arts in general is a dirty business. People get ripped off right and left, you've got 'masters' making money hand over fist through dojo fees, grading, insurance, books, videos, courses—all in support of a product that is the equivalent of a Robin Reliant sold at Rolls Royce prices. Morally speaking, in my 40 years of observing these things, I've known of some real scumbags, some of whom are at the top of the hierarchy, whose station seemed to protect them from any accountability with regard to their sexual misconduct, their brutalization of students, and similar corruption.

Karate has no reality-based ways by which to test the combative effectiveness of its training and fighting methods, concepts and principles, etc. Its only claim to being combatively effective is by way of choreographed displays, dropping some overcompliant stooge with some specialized strike, breaking prepared materials in sheer, playing a game of tag (i.e., competitions), or anecdotal evidence. Therefore, karate provides a suitable niche for those who have realised that they haven't the character to put themselves in situations (whether in training or in competition), in which there is every possibility that they will receive a battering, win or lose. However, they have nevertheless also realised that they can create the illusion of being combatively effective without ever having to fight, simply by way of achieving a high grade or title, acquiring 'deadly secret knowledge' of anatomical weaknesses and the various ways to attack them, etc. Karate also harbours those who, as they rise through the ranks, realise that they can use their seniority to intimidate and physically abuse those they know haven't the ability or psychological strength to fight back, or who submit out of some misguided respect or belief that the beatings they receive are part of their dojo initiation

This stuff isn't limited to karate.

I trained in shorei ryu for a few months awhile ago. Just to try it out. The sensei wasn't a bad fighter. He competed allot in american kickboxing. His traditional stuff was ok. Forms were boring (of course) but good for basic training. Some of his self defense applications(what we would call chin na) were good. I had a problem with the amount of prearranged drills in which the person throws a single punch then you responed with a lengthy combination while the guy holds still and waits for you to finish. Needless to say the sparring was either point sparring or kickboxing and you saw no application of his traditional karate in either. He also trained in muay thai and seemed to rely more on that for full contact.
but

I do like oyama's karate. If I wasn't training in Choy Lay Fut I'd probally be doing that. I like the sheer toughness of it.

[Ray Pina]

It is good.

It used to be called China hand, Tang hand or To De.

I'm impressed that you know Kara referred to the Tang dynasty and only more recently was it changed to mean empty hand by more nationalistic Japanese.

Anyway, if you find good karate it is very good. If you find your regular baby sit Johny belt factory it can be very ordinary.

In many ways I think the good karate I have seen is more rounded than many TCMAs I've seen.

I spent a little over a decade with Issin-Ryu.... striking, kicking, sweaping and ground were all trained. I was just a kid, but if an adult undertook that training seriously and tested it I would guess he'd be pretty good.

Down side is that I now find it a little too stiff in philosophy and aproach, too strong minded, unwilling to change.... but the same can be said for Hsing-I.

[David Jamieson]

isshin is mostly shorin...as you know, with a few goju kata and one stand alone kata all it's own. It's good Karate if you can find it.

There is plenty of decent Karate available to be learned.

avoid the musical stuff, it's fancy but martially garbage.

[PlumDragon]

As someone iterated earlier, many of the "Karate" schools out there dont teach Karate at all; Ive seen schools labeled as "Karate" teaching TKD (most are TKD), wing chun, Ninjitsu (not Bujinkan), aikido, etc...

Ive never trained in karate, but my understanding based on first hand accounts is that:
While most "karate" out there is pretty useless (much like much of the kung fu around these days), when you find real karate, the good old school stuff that hasnt gone through a number of generations worth of watering down and forgetting why this or that is done, I think its pretty decent stuff. Sanzhan, a relatively big idea/form in Southern kung Fu is used pretty extensively in Okinawan forms of Karate as well and displays a pretty visible link between some lineages of southern kung fu. Attacks in this system arent just simple linear attacks; classes arent just sit in horse stance and chamber/punch, chamber/punch all day; a good karate program has substance to it. Furthermore, there are karate schools out there that do a good deal of realistic pressure testing in their sparring and application work, that produce hard fighters with good skills.

As always, its about your objective. Learning the ubiquitous McDojo brand of karate isnt even a bad thing if all youre looking for is a recerational way to work out under the guise of martial arts, but Billy Blanks isnt your thang.
And its not about the style either--Its how you train. If you just want to find an art and get good, find a good teacher with good training methods and worry not about the style that is being taught. From there its just a matter of time! =)

[The Xia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jFkP9R1_oU

[XiaoJieFu]

Love it. :D

Same guys that made the "matrix ping pong" video, no?

It's a very creative way of performing.

[The Xia]

Good bunch of comedians. I'd like to see more of their performances.

[FuXnDajenariht]

that was awesome :D

funniest thing ive seen in a long time.

[tug]

Seen it. Loved it. Funny stuff.

[Mr Punch]

Go to youtube, search for 'blunders', scroll down (it was just the third one down) till you get to the guy with the pony tail, shades and red Chinese silk top... play. Enjoy. NWS.

Warning: It's pretty silly. I'm wasn't sure how it would sit with the KFM's Terms of Service, but it's not nudity as such... :eek:

[doug maverick]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuohySzb9Wk

[golden arhat]

seen it


and ok


karate works (against people who have slow reactions due to being high )

:p

[doug maverick]

seen it


and ok


karate works (against people who have slow reactions due to being high )

:p

how do you know he was high or that he gets high?

[golden arhat]

how do you know he was high or that he gets high?

he is a pimp

and he's crazed

connect the dots

[doug maverick]

i knew a pimps who didn't smoke or get high or drink for that matter(still didn't stop him from getting shot by a brother of one of his *****s). he's crazed so that means he's high? what kind warped view of the world you have goldy. stop stereotyping

[golden arhat]

exceptions to the rule

my moms a prison officer she tells me this stuff based entirely on experience

[doug maverick]

well just so you know all pimps are not on drugs. some are but not all. also people who have anger proplems are not on drugs(they need to be thou).

[golden arhat]

well just so you know all pimps are not on drugs. some are but not all.


not all

but most
not some

[doug maverick]

maybe in england

[jigahus]

I've seen this clip a long time ago. Karate works just like any other trainable martial art.

[doug maverick]

i know its pretty old but its still freaking funny as hell

[ittokaos]

Karate works just like any other trainable martial art.

D@mn Right!

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epMjrx78Bwo

The roots of Karate (okinawan) are so very clear...

[Empty_Cup]

And if so, where are the shouts of "kungarate!"

[MasterKiller]

Looks like Shaolin-Do.

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=3LmzEECPkrI#t=333s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJY2pgR9r44

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00BbDeeasCY

karate? what karate?

[YouKnowWho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHutQ9gyKsI&feature=youtu.be

[Kellen Bassette]

And if so, where are the shouts of "kungarate!"

There's a big difference between seeing the Kung Fu that gave birth to Karate, than seeing Karate trying to superficially appear like Kung Fu.
You lose something from both that way.

[-N-]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epMjrx78Bwo

The roots of Karate (okinawan) are so very clear...

Brendan Lai had commented to us about Goju Ryu having roots in 5 Ancestors kung fu.

[Kellen Bassette]

Brendan Lai had commented to us about Goju Ryu having roots in 5 Ancestors kung fu.

Also Crane and some southern form of Mantis.....

[GoldenBrain]

Also Crane and some southern form of Mantis.....

I'm not sure about the mantis but definitely crane, cat and dragon. I could be wrong but I think cat is either the same as tiger or an older style that evolved into tiger.

Here is a good example of the link to China and the Shaolin temple. The word Shorin from Shorin Ryu Karate is a phonetic representation of the same character as Shaolin or Sil-Lum which means small forest. So, Shorin temple boxing = Shaolin temple boxing. If I'm wrong on this then I apologize since I'm not a linguist but that's the way it was taught to me at a much younger age when I studied Goju Ryu Shorei-Kan Karate which is very similar to Shorin Ryu.

[Kellen Bassette]

I'm not sure about the mantis but definitely crane, cat and dragon.

Kururunfa is based on principles from southern Mantis, with animal techniques stripped out. (Which style, I have no idea.)
I also feel like Tensho has a strong SPM feel, although most people link it with Crane and I even heard Bagua...

(Miyagi Sensai developed Tensho, after training in China, but it is so clearly lifted from southern Chinese traditions....)

[MightyB]

Been really finding the Okinawan / White Crane linkage stuff interesting and have been watching all kinds of cool documentaries. Just found this one that looks promising: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly-UbDxBBgQ

San Chin looks like it would be worthwhile to learn BTW.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Been really finding the Okinawan / White Crane linkage stuff interesting and have been watching all kinds of cool documentaries. Just found this one that looks promising: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly-UbDxBBgQ

San Chin looks like it would be worthwhile to learn BTW.

I did a few seminars with Higaonna, good stuff, very good.
Taira sensei is another I recommend.
Check out his stuff.
And of course the Uechi-ryu videos are awesome.

[MightyB]

I did a few seminars with Higaonna, good stuff, very good.
Taira sensei is another I recommend.
Check out his stuff.
And of course the Uechi-ryu videos are awesome.

I'm starting to get a huge interest in Sanchin as a developmental "gung"... although I think I'd prefer the White Crane version because the hip alignment seems less square but beggars can't be choosers. Since I'm friends with an old Shorin Ryu black belt, maybe I'll have to go see him and learn it if he knows it. Just seems like a good way to help develop power and speed.

Coming from a karate background, what are your thoughts on the "three battles" kata?

[GoldenBrain]

Higaonna and Taira sensei are top notch for sure. I highly recommend Tadashi Yama****a if you want to see some quality Shorin Ryu. And, if you're interested to see how Okinawa karate and Kali Arnis can be mixed together effectively, which is more to my liking, check out one of Tadashi Yama****a's and Dan Inosanto's students Guro T. Kent Nelson.

I love Sanchin! It's taught around the orange/green belt level in Okinawa karate so your Shorin Ryu buddy should be able to teach it to you.

I know you didn't ask me specifically about the three battles kata but I believe that's what Sanchin means. Either three battles or three conflicts, to develop body, mind and spirit.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm starting to get a huge interest in Sanchin as a developmental "gung"... although I think I'd prefer the White Crane version because the hip alignment seems less square but beggars can't be choosers. Since I'm friends with an old Shorin Ryu black belt, maybe I'll have to go see him and learn it if he knows it. Just seems like a good way to help develop power and speed.

Coming from a karate background, what are your thoughts on the "three battles" kata?

I know quite a few versions:
Okinawan Goju
Uechi
Kyokushin
White Crane
Five ancestors
SPM

I prefer, just based on what I find works best for me:
Goju, Uechi, White Crane and SPM.
The White crane sanjian I do is a version of this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V7YrJ9lk3U

[MightyB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V7YrJ9lk3U

Cool stuff - is that you?

[MightyB]

Higaonna and Taira sensei are top notch for sure. I highly recommend Tadashi Yama****a if you want to see some quality Shorin Ryu. And, if you're interested to see how Okinawa karate and Kali Arnis can be mixed together effectively, which is more to my liking, check out one of Tadashi Yama****a's and Dan Inosanto's students Guro T. Kent Nelson.

I love Sanchin! It's taught around the orange/green belt level in Okinawa karate so your Shorin Ryu buddy should be able to teach it to you.

I know you didn't ask me specifically about the three battles kata but I believe that's what Sanchin means. Either three battles or three conflicts, to develop body, mind and spirit.

I talked to the Shorin Ryu guy and he says he studies Kobayashi Shorin Ryu and they use the Kihon and Naihanchin Kata to teach basic movement. But he did point me in the direction of a Uechi Instructor friend of his.

[YouKnowWho]

the Okinawan / White Crane linkage ...

Many years ago, a 6th degree Okinawan Karate master always came to my house on Sunday evening and I had to translate a white crane book for him. He loved to hit his arm on my arm to work out the "3 stars".

[sanjuro_ronin]

Cool stuff - is that you?

Nope, that is Martin Watts a dude that trains White Crane.

I used to have clips of me doing a a few forms, I have no idea where they are now...

Ever since I lost my SPM/HK Sifu, I've been looking, in vain, for something else BUT I think I will probably stop and just do my own thing and train at home.
After 35 years, I think I am ok.
I can't spar anymore because of my vertigo (Meniere's disease) so I am left with conditioning, bag work and ST.
BUT, after sparring and full contact in 20+ years or MA, I HOPE I have learned enough to have some carry over.
Such is life.

Karate has been making a bit of a come back in my life right now, so...who knows?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Many years ago, a 6th degree Okinawan Karate master always came to my house on Sunday evening and I had to translate a white crane book for him. He loved to hit his arm on my arm to work out the "3 stars".

There's a youtube series on Okinawan Karate, top notch you should check it out.

[YouKnowWho]

There's a youtube series on Okinawan Karate, top notch you should check it out.

A good friend of mine John Ray went to Okinawan and trained directly under the top master. He told me that he sparred with the master's son quite often. He could use his toes to kick on the brick wall which was quite amazing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A good friend of mine John Ray went to Okinawan and trained directly under the top master. He told me that he sparred with the master's son quite often. He could use his toes to kick on the brick wall which was quite amazing.

Uechi ryu is know for that.
Shinjo Sensei has some very impressive breaking demos on youtube.

[Kellen Bassette]

Coming from a karate background, what are your thoughts on the "three battles" kata?

I studied Okinawan Karate for many years. Sanchin is widely considered fundamental to Go Ju Ryu, but i really never cared much for it. I always preferred the ideas in Seiunchin Kata as a base for Go Ju, myself.

I have always wanted to learn the White Crane version, however.

[bawang]

theres nothing interesting about san chin, but you prolly find san chin fascinating because ur kung fu training lacks basic fundamentals.

[MightyB]

theres nothing interesting about san chin, but you prolly find san chin fascinating because ur kung fu training lacks basic fundamentals.

http://images.ridemonkey.com/index.php?size=full&src=http%3A%2F%2Fgifninja.com%2Fanimatedgifs%2F107 270%2Fbig-trouble-in-little-china-exploding-guy.gif

[GoldenBrain]

theres nothing interesting about san chin, but you prolly find san chin fascinating because ur kung fu training lacks basic fundamentals.

Dooood!:eek::D Since sanchin originates from southern white crane, doesn't that make it kung fu fundamentals?

I like the goju and white crane versions and also use sanchin type breathing and tension to work all of my forms at some point. Along with working forms on different surfaces and slopes I will use several different speeds, sanchin type breathing and tension, taiji type flow, medium speed and really fast and snappy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

theres nothing interesting about san chin, but you prolly find san chin fascinating because ur kung fu training lacks basic fundamentals.

You say that because you are weak, like woman !!

[bawang]

Dooood!:eek::D Since sanchin originates from southern white crane, doesn't that make it kung fu fundamentals?

I like the goju and white crane versions and also use sanchin type breathing and tension to work all of my forms at some point. Along with working forms on different surfaces and slopes I will use several different speeds, sanchin type breathing and tension, taiji type flow, medium speed and really fast and snappy.

Japanese make a big deal out of nothing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Japanese make a big deal out of nothing.

you can even do dynamic tension in northern kung fu forms.

Actually, the Japanese "screwed up" a lot of the Okinawan stuff in Karate.
Sanchin was one, yes but so was makiwara training.
Something that was done on a "easy progression" became a "macho test" to see who could screw up their hands the fastest.

[bawang]

Actually, the Japanese "screwed up" a lot of the Okinawan stuff in Karate.
Sanchin was one, yes but so was makiwara training.
Something that was done on a "easy progression" became a "macho test" to see who could screw up their hands the fastest.

i lol every tiem i see those kata competitions where the guy pauses and poses, then visualizes 10 thousand enemies in front of him and his eyes start sparkling

and lol @ chambering the fist in san chin

[MightyB]

i lol every tiem i see those kata competitions where the guy pauses and poses, then visualizes 10 thousand enemies in front of him and his eyes start sparkling

and lol @ chambering the fist in san chin

Be careful - much can be said about skinny men focusing on Yi to the exclusion of Li, with their flowery movements and silken pajamas who utilize forms as the way to demonstrate martial prowess.

[sanjuro_ronin]

i lol every tiem i see those kata competitions where the guy pauses and poses, then visualizes 10 thousand enemies in front of him and his eyes start sparkling

and lol @ chambering the fist in san chin

Now, lets understand the context of that:
The phenomena of NOT altering forms is a new thing, in the past people altered forms all the time and the Okinawan were "notorious" for that and Sanchin is a prime example.
The Okinawan's added the chambered fist to Sanchin to keep in line with their more "fisting oriented" way of fighting.
They made, in some cases, sanchin more of a "building" form than a "fighting form" when they added/inceased the dynamic tension.
The full range of motion was viewed as "better' because it developed the strength of the Tzuki over the FULL range.
Not all did this, Uechi didn't BUT even he made the sanchin "bilateral" as opposed to the tradtional "unilateral" of the WC forms.
The point is that they took what they learned and made it their own under the context that they taught THEIR MA style.

[bawang]

Now, lets understand the context of that:
The phenomena of NOT altering forms is a new thing, in the past people altered forms all the time and the Okinawan were "notorious" for that and Sanchin is a prime example.
The Okinawan's added the chambered fist to Sanchin to keep in line with their more "fisting oriented" way of fighting.
They made, in some cases, sanchin more of a "building" form than a "fighting form" when they added/inceased the dynamic tension.
The full range of motion was viewed as "better' because it developed the strength of the Tzuki over the FULL range.
Not all did this, Uechi didn't BUT even he made the sanchin "bilateral" as opposed to the tradtional "unilateral" of the WC forms.
The point is that they took what they learned and made it their own under the context that they taught THEIR MA style.

white crane people call karate "betraying the teacher and removing the ancestors"

that's why every time karate people got to china to find roots they get a good milking lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

white crane people call karate "betraying the teacher and removing the ancestors"

that's why every time karate people got to china to find roots they get a good milking lol

Perhaps, but guess what?
It is silly to hold on to a view that holds on water in terms of tradition.
The reality is that there is NO "original" sanjian in ANY WC style that can be PROVEN to be exactly how it was created by the first Master that developed it.
So, in that regard, what we have is simply hypocrisy.

Considering that the Okinawans DO give credit to their TCMA teachers AND they OPENLY admit the Changes they did, they are, IMO, at least far more honest than MANY a TCMA "teacher" that tries to pass off their "MA" as THE real MA versions of whatever style it happens to come from.

[bawang]

Perhaps, but guess what?
It is silly to hold on to a view that holds on water in terms of tradition.
The reality is that there is NO "original" sanjian in ANY WC style that can be PROVEN to be exactly how it was created by the first Master that developed it.
So, in that regard, what we have is simply hypocrisy.

Considering that the Okinawans DO give credit to their TCMA teachers AND they OPENLY admit the Changes they did, they are, IMO, at least far more honest than MANY a TCMA "teacher" that tries to pass off their "MA" as THE real MA versions of whatever style it happens to come from.

im talking about Japanese, not Okinawan. japan is an extreme culture that emphasize conformity. if ur pubic hair is 2cm longer than other people, there is something wrong wit u. karate changed to conform and look like kobudo.

[MightyB]

white crane people call karate "betraying the teacher and removing the ancestors"

that's why every time karate people got to china to find roots they get a good milking lol

Playing Devil's Advocate, and I do love kung fu, but... again, playing Devil's Advocate - Traditional Hard Core karate maintained a higher level of fighting efficacy through modifying the art by focusing on power and tool development (fundamentals), minimized the total number of forms, and hard sparred. This is my opinion after watching the RTHK video that was posted on the Southern forum. The Goju guys were being compliant and gracious to their White Crane hosts. Goju knew how to leg kick, they kept a tight guard and were able to be offensive. I felt that they would've creamed their White Crane host students had they wanted to and went full out. Just my Opinion based on the video.

[bawang]

Playing Devil's Advocate, and I do love kung fu, but... again, playing Devil's Advocate - Traditional Hard Core karate maintained a higher level of fighting efficacy through modifying the art by focusing on power and tool development (fundamentals), minimized the total number of forms, and hard sparred. This is my opinion after watching the RTHK video that was posted on the Southern forum. The Goju guys were being compliant and gracious to their White Crane hosts. Goju knew how to leg kick, they kept a tight guard and were able to be offensive. I felt that they would've creamed their White Crane host students had they wanted to and went full out. Just my Opinion based on the video.

and a muay thai guy can kick both they asses. fighting ability is not eh point here. whats important is the spirit passed from teacher to student, and in karate its a blank.

[MightyB]

and a muay thai guy can kick both they asses. fighting ability is not eh point here. whats important is the spirit passed from teacher to student, and in karate its a blank.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that,

there's as much tradition and spirit in Okinawan Karate as in Kung fu. What I like about Karate that I think can be utilized in Kung Fu (which IMO kung fu is a better martial art) is the focus. There doesn't seem to be the disconnect about what a martial art is and what it's supposed to be for like in some TCMA. Having that attitude would help in TCMA. Simplification, spirit, strength and focus. Sanchin embodies a lot of their attitude. Be strong like a rock against a wave and building sharp focused movements so you can concentrate your force into your tools and ultimately your target. TCMA has this - but it also has ADHD.

[sanjuro_ronin]

im talking about Japanese, not Okinawan. japan is an extreme culture that emphasize conformity. if ur pubic hair is 2cm longer than other people, there is something wrong wit u. karate changed to conform and look like kobudo.

On that, yes, I agree.

[bawang]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that,

there's as much tradition and spirit in Okinawan Karate as in Kung fu. What I like about Karate that I think can be utilized in Kung Fu (which IMO kung fu is a better martial art) is the focus. There doesn't seem to be the disconnect about what a martial art is and what it's supposed to be for like in some TCMA. Having that attitude would help in TCMA. Simplification, spirit, strength and focus. Sanchin embodies a lot of their attitude. Be strong like a rock against a wave and building sharp focused movements so you can concentrate your force into your tools and ultimately your target. TCMA has this - but it also has ADHD.

its different ways to sell the same sh1t. acrobatic action hero and stoic samurai zen warrior are both sides of the same coin. martial arts cannot fill the void in your life.

I have trained karate bro


On that, yes, I agree.
japan is the only country in the world where immigrants change their LAST name. think about it

[sanjuro_ronin]

and a muay thai guy can kick both they asses. fighting ability is not eh point here. whats important is the spirit passed from teacher to student, and in karate its a blank.

I think that it is NOT blank BUT it was "watered down" when it went from Okinawa to Japan, yes.
The core of Okinawan karate is:
Sanchin
Hojo Undo ( strength and conditioning).
Specialised fists and bunkai ( practical applications in fighting, nowadays based on forms).

Now look at the typical white crane or southern fist style:
Core base form ( sanjian, sam boo jin, etc)
Equipment training to condition and build strength
Specialised fists and forging and fighting techniques.

As for Japanese karate:
Basic techniques
MANY forms
Controlled sparring with little to no contact

[bawang]

I think that it is NOT blank BUT it was "watered down" when it went from Okinawa to Japan, yes.
The core of Okinawan karate is:
Sanchin
Hojo Undo ( strength and conditioning).
Specialised fists and bunkai ( practical applications in fighting, nowadays based on forms).


its not about watering down, but the denial of roots. like how miao dao used to be called "true transmission Japanese sword"

when the okinawan guys talk to japan tv its "lost history", behind closed doors they perfectly clear

[sanjuro_ronin]

its not about watering down, but the denial of roots. like how miao dao used to be called "true transmission Japanese sword"

when the okinawan guys talk to japan tv its "lost history", behind closed doors they perfectly clear

Yes, I tend to agree with that.
If it is from China and now it is Japanese, the chinese roots must be "uprooted".

[Jimbo]

A lot was lost when karate was transmitted from Okinawa to Japan. There are a lot of reasons. Funakoshi (an Okinawan) really wanted karate to be accepted as a budo form, and at first, karate was looked down upon in 'mainland' Japan...a fact that a lot of people are unaware of.

Also, he wanted karate to become part of the physical education system for Japanese schoolchildren, to prepare them for future military service. For this reason, it had to be modified considerably to be taught uniformly to large groups of kids. This further diluted it.

Originally, Funakoshi did NOT allow free-sparring among his students, nor did he want it to become a sport. But his Japanese students nevertheless began to create a sport karate method which, if you look at it, was based around a kendo-style rule set. They also further modified the movements by adding higher kicks, wider/lower stances, and extended movements, not to mention lots of kata. Needless to say, there also came an emphasis on group conformity and a more militaristic training mindset.

One Okinawan master who disagreed a lot with Funakoshi was Motobu Choki. He emphasized full-contact sparring with safety equipment, and he himself only ever learned perhaps one (or two?) kata.

So yes, I agree that much was lost or severely altered when karate was adapted into Japan. What the Japanese did very well, though, was the generally OCD emphasis on consistency of quality and organization for large numbers of people.

I practiced Shi-to ryu in my younger years, which is a combination of two Okinawan systems, but it was thoroughly "Japanized" in the way it was taught, with little if any difference to modern Shotokan in application. I liked the spirit of the training, but not the method so much.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One Okinawan master who disagreed a lot with Funakoshi was Motobu Choki. He emphasized full-contact sparring with safety equipment, and he himself only ever learned perhaps one (or two?) kata.

Correct and while few care to admit it because of his brawler personality, most masters were like him in training ( if not in doing).
UeEchi ryu originally had 3 katas
Goju had 6
It was shorin-ryu that had the most if I recall ( from which most japanese systems are at least in part derived from).
The thought was varied but something like this:
1 kata fro each stage ( beginner, intermediate, advanced).
Some though 6 or 9 because of Buddhist influences.

[goju]

Playing Devil's Advocate, and I do love kung fu, but... again, playing Devil's Advocate - Traditional Hard Core karate maintained a higher level of fighting efficacy through modifying the art by focusing on power and tool development (fundamentals), minimized the total number of forms, and hard sparred.

This hence why i never saw the whole "teehee karate doesnt have the whole chinese secret formula in it" It doesnt seem they are largely missing out given theres more examples of them applying it in full contact setting ( goju even heavily influenced kk karate) where as the chinese arts they sprang from have almost no fighters or clips of them even applying it

[MightyB]

This hence why i never saw the whole "teehee karate doesnt have the whole chinese secret formula in it" It doesnt seem they are largely missing out given theres more examples of them applying it in full contact setting ( goju even heavily influenced kk karate) where as the chinese arts they sprang from have almost no fighters or clips of them even applying it

EXACTLY!

---
We have the Gorilla in the Room folks.