secret behind the phoenix eye punch!

[fiercest tiger]

southern brothers and sisters!

do you have different types of phoenix eye strikes, uppercuts, straight, downwards, hooking, flicking etc?

some corkscrew some dont. what do you find more effective? why? ;)

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[Kung Lek]

The pheonix eye fist form is generally for striking vital points.

It takes time before you can use it even halfway effectively and without the knuckle collapsing back in due to the force of the strike.

Areas unprotected by bone are the targets for this strike and at higher levels it is a tool of dim mak strikes to points on the meridians.


peace

Kung Lek

[MoQ]

The fung ying phoenix shape is amost always used in fists but not always the eye. Eagles claw collapses directly into the phoenix fist, we don't put thumb behind knuckle, or on top. The eye, seldom travelling more than 6ins to the target, is on a spring mechanism designed to accept and distribute whatever Ging the body movements supply, so it is never a matter of the solitary foreknuckle collapsing under the strain.

[Shaolin Master]

"It takes time before you can use it even halfway effectively and without the knuckle collapsing back in due to the force of the strike."

Sorry , KL but have you ever held a phoenix eye fist properly ? it won't collapse as there is support behind it, and you can use it straight away maybe not to its full effectiveness but straight away for sure.

"Areas unprotected by bone are the targets for this strike and at higher levels it is a tool of dim mak strikes to points on the meridians"

That is a contradicting point, meridians actually lie very close to the bone and many times you hit the bone directly and very near to, as there are nerves and surface points in addition to meridian points, they are known as musculo-skeletal points/areas. some easily known examples : along the jaw line , side of temple, etc....

FT, there are different versions of the phoenix eye strike at which time they change name : double phoenix, Dragon Fist, Crane Head, etc...

Regarding the single Phoenix eye, it can be supported directly behind, within or on top and even in some arts unsupported. It depends on the strike approach and the style's methodology

Regards
Shi Chan Long

[fiercest tiger]

some good answers thanks, does anyone know why you would corkscrew? is it more effective?

thanks. :D

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[Shaolin Master]

jing (Assisted, accumulated and supplemented by the action) and slipping into the target (does more damage) able to actually go deeper into the striking.

[qy]

I checked this thread and was excited to see a martial discussion again.

Moderator, why is someone that is known to have published VILE comments on this board over and over still allowed to post here?

I often ignore posts of the local trolls, but this board should not support his kind of publication.

[fiercest tiger]

i thought that we should start talking kung fu again. im sick of the trolls too! but lets move on and forget these individuals and learn from each other. :D :)

seriously though we could have a really good chat on heaps of topics if everyone looked at the knowledge of all of us put together. of course there are times when we have to hold back info, but there has been some really good posts on this forum. if this trolling keeps up we will all be talking through messenger services and kfo will miss out! :(

from what i know of phoenix eye strikes, corkscrewing inwards and outwards, yin and yang theories of the body, upsetting the chi and blood. left to right side! we all know how effective our systems are when the deadly phoenix eye is at our disposal.

i was seeing if anyone knew about the differences of the corkscrew. in ykm we have all these theories to learn and we try and understand what is happening inside and out of the persons body. dont get me wrong, im no dim mak master and i can say, we probably will never meet a legit teacher of this deadly art form.

if anyone has more info please feel free to email me or simply chuck it on the thread.


peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[This message was edited by fiercest tiger on 01-24-01 at 10:28 PM.]

[Kung Lek]

Hi-

Shaolinmaster- yes i am familiar with the hand form and am aware that the thumb supports the index finger or sits on top when the hand is more conditioned and stronger.

I don't feel there is contradiction in what I have said inasmuch that when the beginner uses this hand form there will be a time before they can effectively use it, and at higher levels it can be used to strike at a variety of targets.

as far as uppercuts, hooks and so on, I would suppose that the situation would determine what the effective path would be to place the strike with the hand form.

peace

Kung Lek

[BIU JI]

Which systems use the double pheonix eye? Is it any more affective than the single?

[fiercest tiger]

double phoenix is in hakka, and some mantis.

used for temple shots, for better penetration.

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[L D S]

To my understanding the single phoenix eye is more penetrating than the double phoenix.

Ling

[Ming Fai]

Double Phoenix Eye Fists are used in Hung Gar forms too (Tiger Crane Form, Fa Kuen Forms)

[fiercest tiger]

sorry, bad wording in my last post.

single phoenix eye fist penetrates deeply to a single spot. eg. the solar plexis & sternum. the power is concentrated on one point.

double phoenix eye fist (two knuckles protruding) will still penetrate, but the power is penetrated to two seperate points. you are able to hit more pressure points than with a single phoenix eye, but this is not practical in some cases. as far as i know - the double phoenix eye is used mostly for temple and face shots shots. it is used more in a downwards or horizontal motion (like knocking on a door)rather than straight forward like a single phoenix.

with a single phoenix you can corkscrew the punch, but with a double you cant really. i think thats why it is used differently. we dont use the double phoenix at all - but we do have a downwards hit to the face with all the knuckles.

thought i would just throw in what i was told.

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[BIU JI]

For temple shots or just in general?

[L D S]

To Biu Ji:

Generating power with a single phoenix eye punch is naturally more powerfull, when you understand body mechanics.

To Ming Fai:

Fa Kuen Forms in HG? Please explain this. I'm only acquainted with (empty hand) forms of Hung Gar and Lau Gar in the system of HG.

Ling

[BIU JI]

Unless I missed previous post ,what system do you study? I study YKM in Sydney

[L D S]

Biu Ji, please look at my profile.
;)

Ling

[WongFeHung]

corkscrewing accomplishes a few things, one it tears the fascia to penetrate the organs, as a flat fist tears the face when it turns and pulls the skin, which is why fighters use vaseline. Another reason is to create a double impact strike. To accomplish this, perform the strike inverted, and then without withdrawing, turn it over and continue the strike, one-two. You can reverse this as well, or link it with itself to form multiple strikes. Multiple iumpact strikes are often used to penetrate iron shirt.

[Quan]

FT, i used to know a wing chun sifu that would use a phoenix eye strike, in conjunction with a controling grab with the other hand. it circled from the center line outward across the eye as you pulled your opponent towards you. it was a very efective strike and a somewhat different usage of the fist. I haven't ever seen anyone else use it quite that way since

[WongFeHung]

another corkscrewing motion found in Tang-Fung Hung-Ga utilizes the wrist as well. This represents the concept of jow-sao, or running hand, which is a strike that when met with opposition, circles, or runs around and continues to strike. This is only a concept, and should be expanded and extrapolated to include running from all different angles.

[fiercest tiger]

ten tigers nice post you seem to know about the phoenix eye pretty well.

do you know what the corkskrew does in turn to presspoint striking.

quan,
i have seen a picture of dr leung ting doing a phoenix eye strike in wing chun. i didnt know that they used it, maybe high lkevels i dont know ill ask vingstunstudent though, he would now! :D

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[Quan]

F.T. the sifu i saw using it was a student of augistine fong's im not real familiar with the system or its variations but it was a cool strike so i have always kept it in my tool box

[CannonFist]

I was told that Yip Man used to teach the phoenix eye fist back in China. Some of his student conditioned their phoenix eye fist till they can dent certain metal plates. Hoever Yip Man started simplifying his Wing Chun when he went to HK. In my opinion the main strength of Yip Man's Wing Chun is its simplicity.

[SifuAbel]

Who here can do the pheonix eye push up?

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@aol.com

[fiercest tiger]

there are different type of phoenix eye push ups that i teach and practise, can you do them?

i here where you are coming from sifuable :D

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[SifuAbel]

I sure can. I was thinking about making a short quicktime as demo. What different types of push ups do you do? Do you do them on the one knuckle?

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@aol.com

[SifuAbel]

.

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@aol.com

[fiercest tiger]

in phoenix eye push up we have vertical method and horizontal method. they both train the hand and pressure differently on the knuckle. plus different push up for developing the tricep form punching and elasticity. for ging! :D

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[fiercest tiger]

:D

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[SifuAbel]

IMHO, The impact trajectory is what makes or breaks a good PE punch. Some practitioners put the impact point on the head of the "triangle" but in most of the "knuckle rapping" punches i do otherwise it is the bottom side of that point that should be making contact. In other words the impact point should be a straight line between hand knuckle and first digit. Some stylists I've seen use the triangle shape for this strike and other a more index point fashion. It may just be differences in the hand. I would think that the -< dead-on strike point would be more damaging to the finger than the ,< downstroke for the triangle position which has the full support of the hand knuckle. The ¬ index point position is already lined up and makes contact on the same point

[tnwingtsun]

Very good post.
We practice the "seeking" fist also.

[LiLong]

In my system (Li Long Bai Mei) the PE fist is the primary fist attack. We use it not only to strike vital parts but also any other parts of the body. The conditioning required is quite intense and potentially damaging. My sigung cannot form a regular fist anymore. We also use the double phoenix and try to keep that formation even when executing backfist punches. The PE is a powerful technique and potentially harmful for the person delivering it as well as the receiving end of the business, so use it wiselly. ;)

[diego]

would you tell me why you desire to keep the PEfist during a backfist,does it give better relaxation for snap or ??

[fiercest tiger]

in ykm we also use it with a backfist, because it can easily change to a flicking motion at the temple if the bridge has been stopped! the wrist mostion can still cause damage to the opponent! plus its easier to follow up if its already formed.

hope that helps!

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[CannonFist]

Many Bak Mei practitioners will execute a back fist with the phoenix eye because while they hit to the face with the normal fist the finger joint sticking out can also jab at the eyes, all this with just one motion usually with a flicking motion of the wrist as fiercest tiger mentioned.

[SifuAbel]

Or they can hit the inner collar bone with the back fist and jab the PE into the throat.

Its dangerous to think you are immortal.
sifuabel@yahoo.com

[Fubokuen]

I don't get all the fung ngan's to the head!
Did your teachers teach you this?? Apart from the abstract creativity, most of these "ideas" don't make a whole lotta sense...

I don't really think of the "PE" as a punch, but if one is going to stick out their knuckle in front of their thumb and punch to the head, I guess I can see why some think it's dangerous to the user...
Maybe we do more of the "seeking" manner someone mentioned. Maybe we don't differentiate between "single and double PE" and we just kina squeeze it out depending on usage(much like a Fukien White Crane practitioner described around here one time, or like hsing-I "needlefist").
It is used alot, like a scorpion's tail, or like a bird of prey uses the beak and claw, or maybe like a squid pulls prey into their beak, rather than a "thrown punch" flying outward... More ginn dependent than just a "punch" and from prior bridge(or even body) contact rather than attempting to fly past it. Definately best served as infighting technique/mechanism and definately best executed as an "internal" attack, where of course, footwork, timing and angle are paramount...


Whenever I find myself sucked into posting I always feel kina dirty, so if this stays up it's definately a sign of my own weakness...

**********
"We are all ready to win, just as we are born knowing only life"

[yik-wah-tik]

hello ming fai,

i have an off the wall question for you.

are you a rapper/mc?

the reason why i ask is that i have a c.d. from a bay area chinese rapper named ming fai.

thanks,
frank :D

[LiLong]

Both CannonFist and Sifu Abel are right on with the bakcfist PE. It just allows for versatility during multiple-strike attacks. :D

[wisdom mind]

if interested in getting put on vinyl email unifury@hotmail.com

[fiercest tiger]

cool hook us up centerline! you think i have a chance?? :D

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[diego]

but we thinking online more of a asian slash /cowboy gangsta type format

"I finish the job with a tiger claw into the throat. Remember guys'INSERT CORNY WHITEBOY VOICE' use extreme violence against your opponents always, that will discourage them from hurting other people" kungfu site technique sec.VS?."...

[fiercest tiger]

word to hommies on westsieeeeeede! hahhaha

special shout out to my ykm gangstars on the eastside, peace god! hahaha

hows that man! gangstar sifu in da house... :cool:

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[Kram1]

Hello Li Long,

Where in Tampa is your school? I would love to visit! After a seven month hiatus, I am starting back into MA. You may E-Mail me if you wish.

Mark

And So It Goes...