IMA and Intellectuals

[Ka]

Why is it that IMA seems to be (I admitt it is changing)the domain of intellectuals?This seemed to start at the turn of 19 century?Is it again a case of Western misinterpretation of how deep these arts are?Is it related to the new age movement?

I have been told that in 18 century China the soilder was the lowest positon one could hold,MA instuction was not much higher.

go for it,but please don't come at me with the "I am as blue collar as you can get deal"because I am making a generalisation and they are not to be appilied to indivuals which would not make it a genernalisation,eh:D

[Nexus]

My teacher would say, "Tai Chi is either for intelligent people, or it makes people intelligent."

Being that through his observations, it was usually intelligent people that stuck with tai chi, or that the tai chi itself caused those who stuck with it to become intelligent (perhaps referring to body-mind intelligence).

[PlasticSquirrel]

the "magical powers" of internal styles bring in an odd crowd, don't they...?

my guess is that it's because people that choose internal styles usually like to think that they've found some sort of mystical edge that will help them in a fight. unfortunately, most of these people would rather read books than practice, and thus, we have the internal martial artists' online community... ;)

to put it bluntly, internal styles attract nerds. that doesn't mean that everyone's a nerd, though. they also attract groups of other people... but mostly nerds.

don't even try to tell me that you guys don't want magical powers either... i've heard it all on this forum.

*note: don't take this post too seriously. it's just a bunch of half-truths i stretched out. ;)

[Chris McKinley]

I was hanging out after school at the Math Club meeting, swapping recommendations for brands of tape to hold my glasses together and playing some D&D. I realized that my Intelligence was an 18 but that my Strength was a 9 and my Charisma was only a 7. Then I got this really cool beans idea. I could just develop my Psionics with a martial art that has qi in it, and then I could be, like, as powerful as a mind flayer. I could point my finger of death at them and my qi would kill them from across the room.

That, and the fact that I've always had a thing for fashions which include Nehru collars.

[Ka]

LOL ahh good value,I knew i would get some good posts,keep'em coming:D

[Fu-Pow]

Hmmm... great question. Seeing as I have my foot in both worlds I can make some comparisons.

My Taiji class is very well...um...different. Not really nerds, actually a lot of older "hippy" types. (While I hate to categorize people, I can guarantee that I wear more deodorant than most of these people. hehehe.) The place I study is a "Taoist Institute" so they study not only Taij, but Taoist Chi Gung and Taoist literature. They even have a class to train to be a Taoist priest. Most of these people seem to be into the "spiritual cultivation" side of things. (You gotta remember I live in the Pacific Northwest so lots of "granolies" up here.) I have no idea if any of these people can fight. But my teacher kicks ass. When he shows an application it scares the $hit out of me. Sometimes I feel like everyone at this school needs to take some vitamins or get outside more often (ie everyones very pale!!!)

My kung fu school is the exact opposite. Everyone is pretty "blue collar." Half the class is kids or teenagers. We laugh a lot and sweat alot. My teacher could probably drink me under the table. We perform all the time and my teacher is known as "King of the Lion Dance." Lots of sparring in the school which usually ends up with someone getting a bloody nose. People generally have the attention span of a gnat. And I don't think we've ever done anything that even closely resembles mediation or discussed philosophy.

Totally different experiences.

[jon]

PlasticSquirrel
I was up standing on my chair yelling "yeah tell it brother"
untill your last line...
"don't take this post too seriously. it's just a bunch of half-truths i stretched out."
Then I started to feel a little mean:(

Seriously that post has a lot more truth in it than i care to think about.
I think internals are thinking persons martial arts in that the use of skill is more important than the use of force.
In many external arts the aim is develop weapons to do distruction to the human body.
Internal styles are often methods of diluting force for the redistribution in the use of combat.
Very different mindset.
If im external ill attempt to roll over the top of you like a steam roller, my thinking is totaly forward and self rightous.
If im internal i will attempt to blend with you and let our forces meet and become one, from here i will try to lead it as will fit. My thinking is not to win only to not be in the line of fire.
One im seeking to distroy, one im seeking to diffuse.
Different mindset different attraction.
Before anyone jumps on me i know that both internal and externals each contain these elements but this is where i personaly believe each of there focus lies.

My personaly overly bigoted belief is that its much better to come to an internal art from an external background. This way you already have skills to do damage and you can properly appreciate the work on energy and force manipulation.

As a disclaimer just so no one mistakes my meaning...
I dont mean that no internal styles have the ability to do nasty damage or take an opponent out quickly. However i would question if there skills are comparable to a good external system in that respect. I think there focus lies in as stated 'enery and force manipulation' for the use in combat. Similar yet different approch to the same goal... Not losing your life.

As a silly example...
Its ancient china [bear with me here] and you are a rebal tasked with attacking a convoy. You must be swift fast and deadly taking out all of the occupents as fast as you can. You are also badly outnumbered.
You are tasked with attacking say the left hand side, your buddies will take the right and rear.
You sneak up and spot your moment to move but there are five armed gaurds all carry swords and looking like they proberly know what there doing. You cant let your buddies down so you have no choice but to supprise attack...
In this situation would you trust a fast mean external art or Tai Chi which relys on your opponents movements?
Just food for thought and badly explained at that, hope someone understood my meaning.
If im dueling on the other hand... ill take internals any day of the week.

[jon]

Chris McKinley
Well im a level 9 drow elf with a dex of 19 and strg of 13 but my int is only 7 to make up for this i have a good charisma of 17.
I am a multiclass fighter\mage although my magic ablitity is quite poor for my level.
I do however have a timestop scroll and a potion of firegiant strength.
I also have a +3 short sword called 'nerd bait' which i use whenever the going gets 'tough'.
Anytime you want to battle my dice will be ready
:rolleyes:

Man i cant believe i understood your WHOLE post! That just PROVES internalists are nerds :(

[bearpaw]

I think it also has to do with patience. We get alot of Marines (since your school is right across the street from a Marine base) coming in and taking a couple of try-out classes. Most don't make is half way though an hour class, they just stop and sit down for the rest of class. Now, the only shape I'm in is round but at lest I try thoughout the whole class.

[Chris McKinley]

Hey jon,

My last post reveals more than I'd want. I mean, in order to really make fun of it, I had to know some of the jargon, and in order to know the jargon....well, let's just say there's a facet of my whole self which is a recovering nerd. LOL

Seriously though, RE: "In this situation would you trust a fast mean external art or Tai Chi which relys on your opponents movements?". This statement reflects an incomplete understanding of what Taijiquan is in a real life-or-death combat situation, one that perhaps may bleed over into your perception of the other internal arts as well. Taiji does NOT necessarily rely on the whims, actions, or desires of your opponent. At its nastiest, it can include pre-emptive deadly strikes. Same with Baguazhang and Xing Yi Quan.

Earlier, you state, "In many external arts the aim is develop weapons to do distruction to the human body. Internal styles are often methods of diluting force for the redistribution in the use of combat.". You haven't seen real neijia applications then, very obviously. For example, one of the aspects that attracts me to Baguazhang is the extreme brutality and overkill regarding the destruction of the opponent in many of the applications. The appeal is not to some bloodthirsty part of my psyche, but rather to a desire to have the most effective responses at my disposal should I be faced with a choice of life or death.

RE: "If im external ill attempt to roll over the top of you like a steam roller, my thinking is totaly forward and self rightous.". I don't know about the self-righteous part, but I found this statement humorously ironic in that I am often caught using the term "steam rollering" your opponent in reference to some of the more linear Bagua applications. I've played with many different kinds of external arts from many cultures over the years, and I've found absolutely NOTHING which does it as effortlessly, efficiently and destructively as Baguazhang (I've not trained formally in Xing Yi Quan). The idea here is that if I want to point spar, I'll break out the TKD. If I wanna 'rassle, I'll play some BJJ. If I want to engage in sentry removal and I'm empty-handed, it's gonna be neijia. It's not even a question for me.

My guess here is that your perception, on the whole, is at least close to that of the incorrect stereotype of neijia in America. Namely, that of peaceful, slow, large-circle flowing movements that are ever-obsessed with yielding all the time and are cartoonishly imbalanced toward the Yin. I won't even mention the hippie/New Age/silk pajama aspect or the surfer dewd, bubble gum card philosophy. Now I might be wrong, but I think perhaps only by degree.

Oh yeah, and if I really wanna take out a whole caravan of bodyguards, I'll just cast firestorm and cast incendiary cloud on the resulting blaze. It's the poor man's tactical nuke.

[bamboo_ leaf]

I think that the premise that these arts where common and taught to soldiers is incorrect.

Maybe certain aspects but for the most part I don’t buy it from what I have read and understand.


I think the draw and success of those who play what are called internal arts starts with the basic premise that they are different and cannot be approached in the same way as the other arts.

The problem new age or not as I see it is when people try to duplicate high level skills with out really having the skill. So many things like don’t use force, and the idea of stick, follow release become corrupted with the use of force, speed and tech.

Even among many long-term TC players many don’t or really can’t express the principles well in usage. I have met a few of these.

Not many are willing to give up the idea of force. Even in using no force they view this as another way to use force. Not quite the same as using no force and following.


Of course we wouldn’t want to be confused with that new age hippy TC stereotype, gotta be careful about that. :)

[TaiChiBob]

Interesting post.. A lot of varied opinions here..

I came to Tai Chi from a long line of external systems (MA bum i guess).. none of which offered that which i was looking for.. I wanted to be able to control (keyword) a situation.. Tai Chi offered that option.. response to a conflict ranged from gentle to brutal ( nice bag o' options).. I went through the "dominate and destroy" training, it lacked soul.. Tai Chi offered me life skills, survival being only one of the many aspects of the Art..

"Intellectuals, Nerds"?.. remember, those are your values.. perhaps, those prejudices are intimidating at some level, and therefore defensive ridicule an appropriate method of containment..

My students cover every imaginable range of social and philosophical concepts, they range from well-to do, to those that help around the school to make tuition.. What they have in common is a sincere desire to learn.. When someone says they have seen long-termers with poor skills, i question the instruction more than the student..

"Magic".. again that is someone's personal perspective.. not some "cosmic truth".. It has been my experience that "magic" is simply natural events we are just learning to process.. and, it is the learning that is its own reward.. Tai Chi didn't get where it is today by past masters yielding to criticsm and ridicule.. The real "magic" is the ability for humans to intuit and process heretofore unconceived concepts.. it's a chilling thought that some of our brightest and best practioners, dismiss "magic" due to lack of experience, or the fear of some aspect of their Art that may elude their narrow perception.. cripe, 200 years ago, with enough batteries and common gadgets of today, you could have ruled the world with your "magic"..

It seems to be just another case of looking for the areas of contention, rather than building on the wealth of commonalities.. "magic, intellectuals, nerds", just more buzz-word distinctions that exist in the mind of the observer, prejudices that weaken rather than strengthen the Art..

Tai Chi is as much a valid martial art as any.. the weaknesses are in the perceptions of observers, not in the experiences of the dedicated..

Be well.. (just some thoughts from a '60s relic)..

[Nexus]

There is no magic, only tricks.

The person who performs the "magic" knows the trick, so it is not magic for them.

Like if you can juggle oranges, try juggling three in one hand. When you can juggle them with no hands, the trick is mastered.

- Nexus

[bamboo_ leaf]

For me life is full of magic, a trick is something that can be learned directly.

Magic has a quality of uncertainty you may or may not get it.
If you wait it may revile it self.

That’s the magic. :)

[jon]

Chris McKinley
* I forget sometimes that im not capable of properly educating the masses with my own bigoted belief structure.
Im only new to the internals so still havent really seen a lot and im sure my comments reflect my lack of exposure. Still im just here to learn and spout of my own opinionate crap every now and again to. Your comments are well noted and i will think a bit more closely before posting next time... properly, maybe, not very likely but ill give it a go!

P.S any self respecting caravan would be decked out with the latest in fire resistant armor and mages using globes of invlunerablity. You would also need to get around the +3 enchanted weapons with the 35% chance to inflict open wounds. Not to mention the escort of ice trolls and beholders.
Ok im gonna shut up now before i reveal myself to much.
Casting shadow door and stepping though!

[RAF]

First, hippies and intellectuals are not the same. The new age issue is completely a different questions. Are you confusing commercialization with intellectualization?

My speculation is that the Royal classes have always toyed with martial arts. They dabble. Historically the martial arts has been, like it was said before the military and in the 19th and early 20 century illiterate, bodyguards and the countryside people. Hardly well accepted in the Royal classes.

Intellectuals like Sun Lu Tang made it more agreeable for the upper class by putting into the contemporary philosophy of their world view.

However, what does intellectualization mean? Translating oral poetry into written philosophy? Many of the so-called intellectuals were also practitioners and decent (not necessarily the best, but many trained).

There really isn't a whole lot of written material from the 19th century given the practice of the arts at that time. The taiji and bagua books on the market are hardly intellectual writing: they are primary commercial and instructional in nature.

Some of the best material came from Generals of the 17th century and I would hardly call that intellectualization.

Historical writers are far and few between. If you look at the academics writing on Chna's history, in the mainstream peer reviewed journals, martial arts is never addressed (go to the Border's China historical section, check out the indices and tell me how many citations you find regarding martial arts)

I think the most damage, if that is what martial arts is, came from the fiction writers who made the IMA larger than life and the Western romantic fascination with China (which goes back to the times of Marco Polo).

Intellectuaization does not always mean one who does not practice or does not have power.

[Chris McKinley]

jon,

RE: "I forget sometimes that im not capable of properly educating the masses with my own bigoted belief structure.". Thankfully however, I have no such limitations LOL. After all, this is an open forum where we are free to express our viewpoints. I have no illusions of changing anyone's mind. Their views are born of their own perceptions and experience, a few lines of text from me isn't going to shatter all of that, nor should it. What I think I can provide, though, is a perspective that isn't usually very well-represented anymore within the internal arts. Namely, that aside from all the other wonderful benefits these arts have to offer us, they are still a seriously effective way to kick someone's bohiney in the APPROPRIATE context. No, the martial arts aren't all about learning to kick butt. That's extreme. But neither are they about everything else to the exclusion of combat skills. That's extreme, too, and neither extreme represents the truth of what the internal arts are.

RE: "Im only new to the internals so still havent really seen a lot and im sure my comments reflect my lack of exposure.". No problem, everybody's gotta start somewhere. I just wouldn't want you to discount what the internal arts have to offer in terms of the most severe aspects of combat functionality based on erroneous stereotypes and then to let those views set like cement without ever checking into it for yourself.

RE: "Still im just here to learn and spout of my own opinionate crap every now and again to". So am I. We all are. Some of us are just more willing to admit it than others. ;P

RE: " P.S any self respecting caravan would be decked out with the latest in fire resistant armor and mages using globes of invlunerablity.". Yeah, yeah...I've heard it all before. It's not something a little Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting with Creeping Doom can't handle, right before that Firestorm goes off. Especially if they're done with a Chain Contingency.


bamboo leaf,

RE: "I think that the premise that these arts where common and taught to soldiers is incorrect.". I haven't read anybody offering up that premise in the thread thus far. The only internal art with links to the common soldiery is Xing Yi Quan, and that was arguably before it adopted internal principles (depending on whether you ask a Hebei or Shanxi stylist). My statement regarding use of neijia for sentry removal wasn't a reference to an idea that such applications were/are taught as a part of a soldier's combatives, since they weren't, but rather to the idea that nevertheless they can function extremely well for that context if necessary. The overall point was that internal arts are just as capable of dishing out brutality as their external cousins under appropriate circumstances.

Historically, both Taijiquan and Baguazhang also have been taught with the specific purpose of combative use, to the Royal Palace Guard and the Imperial Guard, respectively, so it's not as if these arts haven't seen real life-or-death combat before.

RE: " The problem new age or not as I see it is when people try to duplicate high level skills with out really having the skill. So many things like don?t use force, and the idea of stick, follow release become corrupted with the use of force, speed and tech.". I would generally agree with the first part. What they ought to be doing is practicing and duplicating low-level skills if they are new. Even if one never progresses to the advanced ideas, Taijiquan has some nice things to offer skill-wise from day one. As for your second statement here, I would suggest that force, speed, and technique CAN corrupt the subtler ideas if forced prematurely, but that they don't NECESSARILY corrupt them if used at the right time in one's training and in proper context. It's worth noting that quite a few past Taiji masters were known for having bountiful amounts of all three of those attributes.

RE: " Not many are willing to give up the idea of force. Even in using no force they view this as another way to use force. Not quite the same as using no force and following.". I agree that, no, it's not the same. But neither SHOULD they be giving up usage of force entirely. Such a move would not be in agreement with the totality of the Classics, but only with certain portions. Force has its place in Taiji practice. If you are not in accord with that, we will simply have to agree to disagree on that particular issue and move on to discussing something more productive.

RE: "Of course we wouldn?t want to be confused with that new age hippy TC stereotype, gotta be careful about that.". Even with the trademark sarcasm, I'll still explain why I agree with the statement. Taijiquan doesn't need hippie-culture influence. It's done quite nicely for itself for a good long time without it. Quite frankly, we've seen what the influence of hippie culture has done to the art in this country for a few decades now, and it ain't pretty. Especially according to the nearly unanimous opinions of high-level practitioners from the art's country of origin. In contrast, I would readily agree that hippie culture would/does benefit from Taijiquan influence. Some, in spite of themselves, have become authentic Taiji proponents and have gained some of the institutionalized depth that they so eschewed back in the heyday of hippie culture.

The stereotype itself is to be avoided and checked. That doesn't mean that we all don't have something of value, possibly great value, to learn from certain ex- or old hippies on the subject.

[Ray Pina]

I would like to think people come to the internal because it works and will continue to work later in life. I came after getting squaring off with a Hsing-I guy.

I can see why people feel its intellectual -- it is. Its looking beyond the obvious external and looking deeper into the Why. Why position matters more than strenght. Why a pushing angle is more important then whether who's on top of the bridge.

Many people just want to chain punch faster, wear metal rings on there forearms and do some forms and think, this is it, I'll get faster and stronger and have some techniques to throw out. Fine.

But you won't be the fastest or the strongest. And without a deep understanding of the WHY techniques work, they are just movements. And if you are trying to use that programmed movement based on power, when the other guy is stronger you are in trouble.

Internal is not about being soft or weak, its about not relying on strenght. I'd say I have fair strenght, but I can't move my teacher who is twice my age and 50 lbs lighter. Why? He's doing things wiser then myself. Using better angles, cleaner lines, better alignemnt, more refined movement. Then there is his power. I'm guessing this is from internal.

At times its like he's not even there. He'll lead me in and its like a cloud, zero resistance, and then he becomes like a lead pipe.

I spend as much time reflecting on what I'm learning as drilling it. Often drilling it, checking myself, looking to see if the principles are in play, then continuing.

This is different from the "punch harder" school of thought when things don't work out. Its about mastery of oneself.

[dwid]

Quote: -Chris McKinley- "...one of the aspects that attracts me to Baguazhang is the extreme brutality and overkill regarding the destruction of the opponent in many of the applications. The appeal is not to some bloodthirsty part of my psyche, but rather to a desire to have the most effective responses at my disposal should I be faced with a choice of life or death."

Thank you. If there's an intellectual predisposition related to the IMA, it's being able to look at the principles and see simple truths like this one.

Reading about theory is what brought me to Bagua. Realizing it's sheer brutality is what keeps me there.

[bamboo_ leaf]

If you never have to use it, how is it brutal? Is it something you read or something you know.

can something be a truth if one has never experienced it? Can it be true out side of ones experience?

This is what keeps you in the art? The fact that you are developing a deadly skill, (maybe) not every one develops the ability of MA usage.

Seems like something is broken somewhere inside.

[Chris McKinley]

bamboo leaf,

Even though it would seem obvious your latest post is directed toward dwid, I would like to answer it, too, in order to provide some insight into my perspective and perhaps that of dwid's if it applies.

RE: "If you never have to use it, how is it brutal? Is it something you read or something you know.". A shotgun is a deadly weapon even if one is never forced to fire it. Martial ethics would have us hope that such a need never arises, but sometimes reality doesn't bother asking for our opinions. As to the second question, it is something I know from unfortunate experiences.

RE: "can something be a truth if one has never experienced it? Can it be true out side of ones experience?". I believe the answer to both these questions is yes. Is this line of questioning leading somewhere in particular?

RE: "Seems like something is broken somewhere inside.". That is one of the saddest of the possible interpretations. It is not the only one available, however. Perhaps his reasons for training differ from others, including your own. Perhaps his highest priority for training is for effective self-defense skills. If such were true, I could certainly see why one would stick with Bagua. Personally, I would think it a shame if someone didn't discover the other wonderful benefits of studying Baguazhang than just the fighting skill, but if that's what he's after, I can't fault him for it.

After all, if I buy a gun for self-defense, you can be very sure I'm going to want it to be very effective at killing human beings, since that is the purpose I need it for in the context of a real life-or-death fight for survival for me or my family. Does that mean that one could logically infer that I personally want to kill human beings as a general tendency? No, that conclusion does not logically follow. For some, the internal arts are a lifestyle, a journey, an ever-changing kaleidoscope of personal and universal discovery. For others, they are simply an extraordinarily effective tool for meeting the needs of but one aspect of a person's life and interests.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Chris,


This constant quest for power and control, the fear of always being ready for an attack. People seem very ready to feed this.

“Reading about theory is what brought me to Bagua. Realizing it's sheer brutality is what keeps me”

I think some one who would write this has some problems that should be questioned if not addressed.

Most if not all the teachers that I know would not teach nor foster such an attitude.

Why would any one teach anyone something that could be used to injure others when according to their own statements they enjoy the sheer brutality?

I wouldn’t fault him either, just wouldn’t teach him

[Sam Wiley]

Just to put my $.02 in here, I might say that with power comes responsibility. I began learning Taijiquan because I wanted to have a decisive and systematized method of hurting people. I looked for teachers who taught something along the lines of what I was wanting, and started learning. What I did not know is that the internal martial arts balance out your energies, and not long after starting my qigong training my temperament had evened out considerably. Teaching the internal martial arts to people, even who enjoy being brutal, can help them without them even knowing it. They'll see the changes later on, but they'll come on slowly and subtlely. Pretty soon, they might not even seem like the same person.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Damm a tag team!!!

Leaf is on the ropes!

Just joking. :)

Sam,

I don’t know anymore really!

Most of the teachers that I know character is the first thing they look for.

If they felt that you wanted their art to use for going out and hurting some one, well they might let you stay to pay rent or just ask you to leave.

I like TC as I know you do. One of the things I like about it is that I have found for those wanting to learn to fight the art is a little slow for them.

My own TC is very simple compared to many here so maybe my views are a little different.

[Sam Wiley]

Leaf,
Notice I said "after starting my qigong training." I did not learn any Taiji until a year or so after starting to learn qigong. Before learning my first Taiji forms, my character had already begun to change.:D

I have turned down people because I felt they would misuse what I taught them, so it's not like I'm opposed to the idea. I just see something there that many might not: that being that sometimes people can be brought around. The people I refused to train I had known for a long time and they were not going to change. However, I have also agreed to teach some people things I would not normally teach because after getting to know them a bit, I felt they could really benefit...healthwise, not because I felt it would make them a better fighter or give them a method for cruelty.

[Chris McKinley]

bamboo leaf,

If it had been made clear that dwid indeed enjoyed the brutality of the Baguazhang repertoire, I would share your concern. In fact, I would be less diplomatic in expressing that concern than you have been. However, there is a premature, if not erroneous, assumption being made on your part here that precludes me from yet being able to agree with you.

You mention that according to dwid's own statements that he enjoys the sheer brutality of Bagua when, in point of fact, he has not thus far made any such statement. I attempted in my last post to elucidate the perhaps subtle difference between appreciation of a tool's ability to carry out its intended purpose, even a violent one, and generalizing that appreciation to reflect a qualitative aspect of an individual's character or moral disposition. Judging by your latest post, I seem to have failed to communicate that distinction effectively.

Perhaps if I use a less subtle analogy, my point may make itself known. Let's say I am a peace-loving, law-abiding responsible citizen and that I am, for whatever reason, browsing the counter at a retail firearms store. Let's also assume that I am interested in purchasing a weapon for use in home protection only, since I am not interested in violence, but I live in a dangerous part of town out of necessity. I live in a private residence, not attached to any other residential structures. In other words, I live in a house. Since I am not concerned with high-velocity penetrating rounds posing a danger to someone who may live on the other side of a wall, my primary concern is in obtaining a weapon with maximum anti-personnel attributes...large bore, high muzzle energy, etc. Let's further say, for the sake of argument, that all of the stores that I have visited thus far carry only .22 caliber pistols and rifles. Let's say my original motivation for checking out the current store I'm in was the "25% off Sale" sign on the window. Now, I'm a bargain hunter, so I go on in. Once inside, I find that, in addition to good prices, the store also offers .45 ACP pistols and 12 gauge shotguns. Those factors, in addition to the store offering free classes in gun safety and combat handgunnery, ensure that any future gun-related dealings or purchases will be handled at that particular store rather than somewhere else.

The promise of better prices may have brought me there, but the extra-deadly weapons and knowledgeable staff and service are what keeps me there as a customer. Appreciating the fact that, for my purposes of home defense, a .45 is a more effective weapon than a .22 does not reflect negatively, or in any other way, on my moral character. If anything, it simply reflects my ability to recognize and accurately gauge the differences in effectiveness of the various available kinds of the tool I am needing to purchase; more relevant to intellect and practicality than to ethics.

RE: "I think some one who would write this has some problems that should be questioned if not addressed.". I'm sorry if such a matter-of-fact tone alarms your sensibilities on the issue, but as I have just outlined, I do not yet see cause for concern. Perhaps the man is simply being practical.

RE: "This constant quest for power and control, the fear of always being ready for an attack. People seem very ready to feed this.". There's more of you in this assessment than of me or dwid here. In other words, you seem to be projecting quite a bit of your own negative interpretations and motivations onto our statements, and indeed, onto our reasons for training. Not speaking for dwid, of course, but I'm not on any "quest for power and control", as you frame it here. And I don't fear being ready for an attack, either. I see it as simply being prepared to handle problems, much the same way as I look at having a spare tire and a tool kit in my car or paying for health insurance. You hope you never need it, you don't spend every waking moment obsessing over it, and it's comforting to know it's there if you do. And personally, I HAVE needed it on more than one occasion.

I sometimes envy the security you feel in not having to share in the concerns for personal safety that the rest of us have. I am also genuinely glad for you that you seem to have such a safe environment in which to live/train such that you may continue to progress, unimpeded, for many years to come. Please be aware that not everyone enjoys such circumstances though. Otherwise, your eagerness to assess dwid's statement as reflective of a character flaw significant enough to preclude allowing him to train could be construed as not only pompous, but also somewhat detached from the reality of the danger that some of us may face.

[Kaitain(UK)]

I guess I could be described as a geek/intellectual - I program for a living (worse still it's in computer games), I read a lot of fantasy/science fiction, I enjoy learning about most things, I 'think' and 'worry' a lot about the world around me. I'm what some people refer to as 'a gentle soul' - I don't like hurting people and it came as a huge schock to my system when people tried to hurt me.

I've tried desperately to fight against it :) - a decade of Muay Thai, plenty of irresponsible years clubbing, a year in Africa (somehow I ended up programming though :)). Yet I look at myself now and I'm happy - I have a good job, great family, I study Taiji and Karate and I read what the hell I like.

I'm a 6'4'' 18 stone happy geek - bite me :) and no I'm not a lardy bast (I admit I have a keg rather than a 6-pack but hey). I also wear glasses - I've fought against it so they are blue-tinted 'wish I could carry these off like Brad Pitt' spectacles - but it doesn't really work.

Seriously though - I think the internal arts are 'deeper' than the external arts I've studied. Someone made the point on the main board that the external arts do everything the internal arts do, they just don't know how they're doing it. I strongly disagree - there is more than movement to what I train and if someone hadn't taught me to do those things I'd never have done them, irrespective of the amount of repetition.

When friends ask me what style I think they should learn I always ask "what are you interested in learning? If you're interested in something that is more character developing and sprititual - then Taiji/Baqua/Hsing-I/Aikido. If you want to be able to fight/batter someone within the next year then something like JKD/MMA/Muay Thai that is purely focussed on fighting" - I'm talking about percentages here btw, clearly Taiji is a brutal and vicious MA that can be extremely effective for figting, but that isn't focussed on in its attitude.

I guess it comes down to why you study - I study for a lot more than just being able to defend myself/others. It's a huge part of my training but I can't countenance spending days and evenings training the form if I'm only doing it for defence. I'd be better off going back to Muay Thai if I wanted that - it'd take a lot less time.

[Chris McKinley]

Kaitain,

Some excellent points made there, thanks. :)

To everyone,

I think something which hasn't really been addressed thus far is the possibility that someone who trains internal martial arts for the combat skill might be just as interested in the other things that come with it, they just may be getting all of that from other sources. For instance, I guarantee you can get every bit as much qi cultivation, development, control, refinement, etc. by practicing certain dedicated qigong sets as you can from Taiji or Bagua. Sometimes more, depending on what you are wanting to specifically develop. You can get equal or better coordination skills from attending certain kinds of dance classes. You can get equal or better spiritual/character development by congruently practicing the spiritual discipline or faith of one's choice. And on and on and on. The one thing you CAN'T get from another source is the fighting skills of the internal arts.

I'm not necessarily providing the "perfect excuse" here, I'm just suggesting we leave room for other possibilities.

[Nexus]

All of the assumptions and such can be discarded.

Tai Chi teaches us to read the intentions of others, to recognize feeling, to become sensitive to the world around you so that upon feeling something you immediately know that which you feel. If someone places their hand on you, they have an intention in doing so, they want something.

Tai Chi is teaching us to become sensitive to that feeling, that energy and such which is why we can discuss anything about one practitioner or one teacher to the next, but until you have actually laid hands on them you are just talking out of your ass.

But whats the point?

Tai chi teaches a person to become very observant on the character of others, the way people move, the way a person holds themselves and communicates. One can judge the character of another person as soon as that person comes into contact with you. The eyes can be deceiving, but through touch the mind communicates an energy which when listening properly can be interpreted as intention. So to judge character of somebody by their words or by the way they appear to be is to be pulled into a very thick cloud of deception or even be subject to ones own delusion, as it is necessary to actually touch or feel this person in real life before one could make any real claim to knowing what that person's intentions with the art are.

- Nexus

[Leonidas]

Are you saying you can read someones mind after studying Tai Chi???

[shaolinboxer]

It is not possible to read minds, but it is possible to sense intent and emotion. Like when you know someone is lying.

[bamboo_ leaf]

“I sometimes envy the security you feel in not having to share in the concerns for personal safety that the rest of us have. I am also genuinely glad for you that you seem to have such a safe environment in which to live/train such that you may continue to progress, unimpeded, for many years to come. Please be aware that not everyone enjoys such circumstances though.”

I guess the world must be safe for me. I spent much of my time in South East Asia, China, Korea and Taiwan.

In my work I had to do much traveling, some of the spots that the leaf has hung out in where not known to be nice places for the unaware.

This is not against anyone’s views but only my own. This is what I have found in my own life.

One of the things that I like about TC is the different out look and approach over much of what I had trained in before. White Crane, Plum Flower Mantis.

The constant seeking of calmness, keeping the mind and body empty, much different then developing the ability and outlook that suggest every thing as a threat, developing tools of the trade based on fear of possible attack.

I know and have found that relaxation, balanced and natural movement coupled with non judgmental awareness works. I know this form direct experience not a theroy or belife based on faith.

I know that any fear that I experience is from me, and is a from of not being aware in the present. All these things my art address in one form or another. Yes I have had occasion to use my art and I have/still felt uneasy not totally there yet.

A leaf story: in china very late at night about 20 or so cab drivers where trying to get me to take their cab in a very physical way. Leafs Chinese is very basic, so fast talking was out. alone and late at night not a good place to be.

As they reached and grabbed for the leaf he used something like wave hands like clouds, smiled, saying “gotta go, not today” softly in eng. slowly continued on his way gently keeping hands from establishing a grab or fingers from picking pockets. had this happend to a young leaf the out come might have been very differnt. probbly not in favor of the leaf either.


To each his own, I just went form always having to keep a big stick in my mind and having my confidence in it.

To having no stick keeping empty and light.

The stick got to heavy I had to throw it way. :)

[dwid]

I suppose I was a bit too concise with my previous post. There are many things about Bagua that keep me training in it. If I was only interested in the capacity to seriously injure someone, I suppose I'd just get a concealed carry permit and acquire some CQB shooting training. To me, the brutal nature of Bagua and its simplicity go hand in hand. There's something beautiful about the no-nonsense attitude I've encountered in the serious practitioners I've encountered. Believe me when I say my attitude is one that puts a premium on maintaining peace. When peace is no longer an option, it is best to be able to restore it in the most effective and efficient manner possible. You stated that I have some problems that should be addressed. I suppose my problem is in believing in the necessity of being able to protect oneself when threatened, and that the best martial art is one that is going to render someone capable of defusing a threat that possesses some superior attributes to oneself, be they strength, numbers, or whatever. The brutality of Bagua is part of how the art addresses such a threat.

Regarding your unwillingness to teach someone like me. Perhaps it is the difficulty of communicating over the internet, or maybe you really wouldn't like me in person. Who knows? All I know is that my former sifu (RIP) Dr. Fred Wu was the greatest practitioner of Bagua I've ever encountered, as well as being an inspiring person in just about every way that matters to me. He met with me for about 15 minutes and decided to take me on as a student. If I live up to what he saw in me in 15 minutes in my lifetime, I won't consider it a waste. Who knows, maybe his skills at judging character were doing him a disservice that day, but I hope that's not the case.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Can only read what is written my comments while directed at your posting are not at you. :)

They reflect where I am. Each has their own road to walk. So we can see many view points from all different spectrums.

Each of you help me to define and make clear my own thinking on many things, for this I am very thankful.

Sounds like you found a good teacher, and the teacher found a good student both are lucky.


Luck in training

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Nice post.. when when brute force and dominating attitudes cease to serve your awareness of who you truly are.. discard the attitudes and implications (but, i suggest keeping the knowledge/tools).. in favor of whatever new awareness better defines you.. In the case of many of us, you are correct.. the "big stick" simply got too heavy, too burdensome.. the "external culture" demanded too much of my ego, too much of a "put up or shut up" mentality.. Tai Chi offered me the same, if not greater, ability to manage conflict, together with many more life management skills.. In the Tai Chi culture, i experienced a brotherhood/sisterhood of players ready to help in so many ways that it felt like a family..

I feel that the original premise of this post, intellectualism.. is just another undesirable prejudice.. i evaluate people on their merits, not their IQ, not their social status, not their religious beliefs.. their merits.. Are my student well-intended, are they sincere, are they compassionate, are they honorable.. virtues that serve anyone well beyond the MA/IMA arena.. There is no honor in using force beyond that which is necessary to control a situation.. now, i agree that some situations require brutal, even deadly force.. but, i assert that well-rounded training will minimize the frequency of those incidents..

I, personally, see no difference between external/internal other than the character of the individual.. i have seen very proficient externalists with commendable, even enviable character.. just as i have seen internalists that do much more harm than good to the Art's reputation.. is one better than another? the answer lies within the individual.. that Tai Chi players claim superiority, is, perhaps a character flaw worthy of introspection.. IMA seems to serve the more mature (a quality not always determined by age) practicioner.. The externalist that has developed honorable character typically finds internal qualities in their training without needing specific instruction.. sometimes i think the Art finds its players, not the other way around.. because, also i have seen "internalists" with undesirable character just never quite "get it".. perhaps the Arts sort us out..

be well, all..

[GeneChing]

fascinating?


CORY DOCTOROW / 7:52 AM WED OCT 5, 2016
Sci-Chi: Tai Chi for science fiction fans (http://boingboing.net/2016/10/05/sci-chi-tai-chi-for-science-f.html)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FTgWrnaWn0

Author Sean Williams writes, "Last weekend I was MC of a small con in Canberra, Conflux 12. To keep people limber, psychically as well as physically, I devised a form Sci-fi form of Tai Chi, which GOH Alan Baxter helped me demonstrate over the course of the weekend."

The moves are:

1. Rimmer Salute - part one

2. Jedi Mind Trick

3. Vulcan Nerve Pinch and Salute

4. Catch the Gungan͛s Tongue

5. Neo Shakes Off the Dust

6. Marty McFly Checks His Watch

7. Know Where Your Towel Is

8. Venusian Akido

9. Get Away from Her, You *****

10. Slayer Stake Strike Right

11. Slayer Stake Strike Left

12. Thunderbird Walk

13. I Find Your Lack of Faith Disturbing

14 Rimmer Salute - part two