biu jee

[churn-ging]

Alright, I have been wondering what the end of the third form is all about. The part where you swing your arms around three times then bend down and come back up. I have been trying to figure this out for awhile now and I still don't know what it means. Can any of you on here help to explain this move to me?

[Armin]

Hi!

I learned several applications to this set.

One application is for example, if someone pushes you and you loose balance - with this swinging the arms you're able to regain structure, center-line and balance.

Bending of the head can be a simple head-butt for "very close range".

Hope this helps,


Armin.

[vingtsunstudent]

as you know the third form is about covering mistakes & suffering as little damage as possible, it also shows us that sometimes we may need contradict(go outside ving tsuns principles) everything we have learnt before. it also shows where mistakes may be & makes us think how we might solve the problems with usages from the other forms(and principles) before they happen in reality.
anyhoos, the head is down & the arms come up first.
head down- keep it protected
arms first- clear a path & protect the head
better to sacrifice an arm than your head.

well maybe?

vts

[sunkuen]

The ending of the biu jee form actually arised from the red boat days. As we all know the biu jee form is also referred to as the "emergency techniques".One day while gee shim was cooking breakfast for the opera boys he accidently overcooked the noodles.Well this made the opera boys very angry and they demanded that gee shim make fresh noodles and told him to make sure they were "al dente". Gee shim told them to go to hell.So, the opera boys threw him overboard and he started doin' the backstroke.Gee shim realized the importance of the backstroke so he included it into the "emergency techniques" form of the wing chun system! SO there ya have it...mystery solved!!!:cool:

[churn-ging]

"So, the opera boys threw him overboard and he started doin' the backstroke."

Nice theory, but I actually know the backstroke and when you do it, you are suppose to be swinging your arms backwards, not forwards.:p

Maybe it was the freestyle he was doing, or the butterfly stroke. Makes more sense though if it was the butterfly stroke.:D

[sunkuen]

you don't swing your arms forward in the version I do. Where did you see the arms going forward?

[churn-ging]

Well every lineage probably does it differently.

But in the version I do, we first drop our arms down, then swing them to the back and up over our heads. Imagine your arms stretched out in front of you. Then drop them down to the side of you. Then from this position, swing them to the back of you. Then from there, swing them up so that your fingers are pointing upwards. Now drop them back down so that they are stretched out in front of you again. We do this three times, then bend forward at the waist and our arms go down in between our legs. Then we bring the arms back up and our body starts to come back up at the waist. Then we end it with three punchs.

I call this swinging your arms forwards.

If you were to start with your arms stretched out in front of you and swing them up towards your head first, then towards the back, then towards the sides and back to the starting position.

I call this swinging your arms backwards.

I hope it is clear what I'm trying to say. Would have been so much easier to show you what I mean by forwards and backwards.

[sunkuen]

Sounds like you got it backwards!!!:)

[churn-ging]

"Sounds like you got it backwards!!!"

Are you talking about the way I swing my arms our are you talking about the "forwards/backwards" thing?

[sunkuen]

all depends on how you look at it.

[Shadowboxer]

Arms down in front, palms together in front of you stops the knee from smashing into your face or gut courtesy of the thai boxer, for example. When you swing your arms up and out around your head, you break his grip and around your neck and then re-establish the centerline with punches or tan/lop with (left) hand and man ging sao (right) pulling their head into pie jarn(left). This would be one application.

[anerlich]

Sunkuen, you are close, but the actual Jee Shim story is a little different.

The opera dudes started hassling him about the noodles all right, but what he actually did was:

- suddenly bent forward and thrust his arms down to pick up the pot, and

- then swung his arms back over the head while standing up, hurling the pot, water and noodles all over the performers hassling him, then chain punched the closest one in the face three times.

:D :D

In TWC both arms circle together over and back then forward once only. Another application is to drop the COG and drive the hips back and arms away from them as a defense against a clinch from the rear. The arms lifting over the head can also serve as a rear breakfall (though IMHO not a particularly good one).

[sunkuen]

It's really interesting the funny twists wing chun history takes as it makes its way down the grapevine. Any minute now Rene is gonna show up and set the record straight.Then Benny's version will get published in the Magazine!!! :D

[Tongue_of_Colibob]

The finger jabs of biu jee are aimed at the forehead and groin!

The bending down motion is to sweep dirt in your enemy's eyes!

The bending back motion is to grab his legs and trip him!

The double grabbing motion is to grasp his shirt collar to threaten him!


;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

[yuanfen]

Not so. You speak with forked tongue.
There is more
Tonto told me so.
Yuanfen-the real lone ranger.

[churn-ging]

"When you swing your arms up and out around your head, you break his grip and around your neck and then re-establish the centerline with punches or tan/lop with (left) hand and man ging sao (right) pulling their head into pie jarn(left). This would be one application"

Interesting shadowboxer. I'll have to try that one in class soon. So when you are in the clinch with a MT guy, you would swing the arms over your head and try to get out of the clinch like that? What part of the arm would you use to break the hold they have on your neck, the forearm or the elbows?

[Shadowboxer]

In the actual application you wouldn't go around your head. You break the grip with your forearms on the upward swing. You would make the entire movement as small as possible to break free and hit. I guess one reason for swinging the arms around the head is to help generate power. Anybody else have any thoughts...?
BTW, we train other ways of dealing with the clinch, besides not getting into the clinch, that come from chi sao.

[whippinghand]

Kick it, or in your case, slap it?

[vingtsunstudent]

picture this, you've been knocked down(or for some reason you are down tying up your shoelaces or who knows what)
& you are attacked by someone wielding a knife or a club etc
what are you going to do as they strike
a. leed with the head
b.sh!t yourself
c.raise your arms first to protect your head, even if means sacrificing an arm.
d.you haven't got a brain, so it doesn't matter

better to lose an arm than your life.
if i remember correctly there was a student, i think of wong shun leungs(i am not sure if this is correct, perhaps david peterson or straightblast5 may know better of this) that was attacked with a knife. the only thing between it & his head was his arm, apparently he suffered a tremendous cut to the forearm but hey, he lived.(i did at one time know the whole story but as i get older the brain has this habit of playin' up on me)
again someone who knows better may correct me if i'm wrong but i think this movement may be more of a principle than an exact technique.

'seriously, I think that part is just religious...maybe Buddhist influence or some sifu adding it to seem like buddhist influenced. There really is no useful techinique or application hidden in the movements...'
EmptyCup, i do believe that it is not only your cup that is empty on this occasion.
vts

[whippinghand]

Bravo....

[vingtsunstudent]

'I don't think you can so absolutely rule out my theory as I doubt you were there when it was added to the set... '
EmptyCup, mabye not & i admit to being in no way an authority but have you asked your teacher what it's for? if they tell you religion or offer no explanasion at all then you might be best finding a more qualified teacher.
there are few wasted movements in the ving tsun forms. it is either a principle or a technique & i definitly doubt that a movement performed more than once has nothing to offer in a fighting sense, ving tsun, wing chun is just not like that.
besides that i think if they were going to start pushing religion on us they would have done it a lot earlier biu jee.

i suggest you re-read my post & if you actually know the movements being spoken of then you should be able to see what i am saying it can be used for.
vts

[vingtsunstudent]

'I know the explanation. Doesn't mean I agree with it.'
EmptyCup
gee i hope you aren't disagreeing with your teacher.
i have to appoliges for what i am about say but your attitude is the reason for so much poor wing chun in the world.
'like any other martial art, there are some useless things as well'
tisk tisk tisk
it's a shame you weren't as positve about the system as you are negative, then you might have a chance to learn something.
vts

[whippinghand]

Bravo... bravo... molto bene!

[vingtsunstudent]

my sifu's name is barry lee & yes compared to all other wing chun i have seen he is the best & that isn't bragging.
wong shueng leung referred to him as 'the machine' 'the one with the special understanding' & 'the most correct hands as taught in the early days' wong was heard to say the he was his best western fighter & said that if you are hit by this man you don't get up & believe me from experience i can say that from a light touch you don't want to feel a real one.
he now teaches out of germany & you would definitely understand why i love ving tsun so much if you were to meet & feel the power he possesses.
most of his students over there are qualified teachers in there own right(a lot with 10-15 years experience) but have been able drop there ego & start again from the first form, all this because of the knowledge & real life practical experience he has to draw on.

by the way, your last post again shows either your sifu's or your complete lack of understanding in wing chun & its principles.
i do use my brain & suggest you do the same by finding someone who can show how & why all these things you feel the need to question actually work.
vts

[Frank Exchange]

Empty Cup, without going as far as vingtsunstudent, I am also of the WSL lineage, and that explanation of the movement is indeed the one which Wong preferred.

I also agree that an action in the form can have many interpretations, but the one described is certainly applicable in a real world situation. As for the idea that you get more coverage by holding the arms more horizontal, may I suggest that you try it? We train this way, and if the movement is done incorrectly, we end up getting whacked.

[vingtsunstudent]

'Wong Shun Leung was not God either... '
i'm sorry you must be the man.
as for me being rude, well, if belief in my system & teacher is being rude then i guess i am,
although i don't consider my honesty at what you have said as being rude, it's just my opinion as too you have yours.
i don't follow blindly & have tested what i know on many occassions which has also led me to believe in what we have been shown.

frank
'Who is your teacher may I ask since he is infallible??? I too would like to learn from a perfect being... '
after a statement like that do you really think i went to far?

but then again i am the one being rude.
vts

[vingtsunstudent]

hey whippy
you know that sometimes battles are fought up hill?
i can just never rember this straight up when i come here to learn:eek:
vts

[vt108]

"Did WSL say this in your presence. Or did "the Machine" itself tell you this?"

If you new vts's sifu you would not ask that stupid question. I saw Sifu Lee few times and I can say he is the machine. Maybe you don't know but he had an injury which would make you to be on a wheel chair to the end of your life but not him. He still practices with his students very hard so sometimes they almost can't stand to the end of the training.

[Botha]

vt108 or vtstudent

I again ask you politely where in Germany (not in Holland) I can find Barry Lee aka The Machine.
BTW My sifu calls me Magneto (that man from the movie X-Men) because of my chisao skills, so maybe it's Magneto vs The Machine