This sucks! Restrictive rules for competition in UFC

[Shaolindynasty]

These are some very restrictive rules the UFC goes under some of them are very rediculous in that they HEAVILY favor BJJ type fighters. After looking at this foul list can anybody obviouly say that UFC is a style vs. style competition?
I think I'll just completely ignore someone using "no kungfu in UFC so it isn't reality based" argument from now on.

Fouls:
Butting with the head. What!?! I see so you have to grapple to get out of the guard.

Eye gouging of any kind. OK

Biting.Ok

Hair pulling.Ok

Fish hooking.I am not sure what this is

Groin attacks of any kind. Disservice to strikers

Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent. Ok I can understand that eww

Small joint manipulation. Why?

Striking to the spine or the back of the head. This severly limits defence other than grappleing for the shoot

Striking downward using the point of the elbow.This severly limits defence other than grappleing for the shoot

Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea. Isn't that a kind of choke, oh it's not one usually used by BJJ stylist

Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh. This is heavily used in Kungfu, why is it illeagal? So nobody will get hurt?

Grabbing the clavicle. Why?

Kicking the head of a grounded opponent. Ah so you have to go to the ground to finish your oppenant instead of standing

Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
Stomping a grounded opponent. Ah so you have to go to the ground to finish your oppenant instead of standing

Kicking to the kidney with the heel. Why?

Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck. Purpose of Chinese style throws? To throw the opponent to the ground on his head neck etc to cause injury

Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.OK

Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent. So a BJJ guy could use his Gi against you but you can't use it against him? or are gis not allowed anymore

Spitting at an opponent. OK

Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent. OK

Holding the ropes or the fence. Ok

Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area. OK

Attacking an opponent on or during the break.OK

Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee. OK

Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded
the end of the period of unarmed combat.OK

Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee. OK

Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.OK

Interference by the corner.OK

Throwing in the towel during competition.OK

With so many rules how are other fighters supposed to win this thing now? They can't, this competition is deffenitly not style vs style anymore

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[Tigerstyle]

BTW: Fishhooking is when you put your finger(s) into your opponents mouth and pull (like a fish getting hooked). I think that one was added because Tank Abott used it (along with trying to throw the opponent oput of the ring).

[Tigerstyle]

Ironically, kicking to the kidney with the heel was a move Royce Gracie used often from the guard in the early UFC's.

I had heard (RUMOR ALERT) that someone he used that on in one of the events had blood in his urine after the show. I can't back that statement up with any proof though, so feel free to disregard it if you like.

[Shaolindynasty]

Could be true that happened to my sifu when he was in shotokan.

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[Ming the Merciless]

See UFC matches are all fixed. Just like Tank said.

[SifuAbel]

The small joint manipultion and the no hitting the guy while he's on all fours is by far the biggest fix. Hitting with the elbow point is too effective against an exposed head to be allowed. Grabbing the clavicle or stiking any nerve point would make it very difficult stay close.

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

[Royal Dragon]

"Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.OK"


OK?

I can see the faking injury and dropping mouth peices, but timidity? Avoiding direct confrontation is a "Classic" Kung Fu stratigy. How do the judges know your not playing a plan to draw your opponent in?

Example, an opponent charges, and you avoid, avoid and avoid untill he's over extended, then your change tactics and go on the offence, wile he is in "emptyness".

Also, on second thought, faking an injury "Could" be used strategically to draw your opponent in , where you want him too, and "could" be considered another "Classic" Kung Fu stratigy falling under the use of "Tricks" and "Deception" techniques commonly used in Kung fu systems.

"Holding the ropes or the fence. Ok"

Also, what wrong with this? Aren't Ninja types SUPOSED to use thier surroundings in a fight? Does'nt this limit the use of THEIR systems too?

A fight is a fight, and the world is full of fences, why NOT use them in the octogon?

"Throwing in the towel during competition.OK"

Wait, another stupid rule!! What if your fighter is getting killed? It's ok for boxers to throw in the towel for the atlete's saftey, why not here?


Royal Dragon


"Chi is Chinese for Spinach"

Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

[Ming the Merciless]

why is faking an injury not allowed? You could sucker someone in with that. Oh wait a minute, I forgot, this is reality fighting. haha.

[Grappling-Insanity]

You guys need to remember the fights need to be entertaining enough to watch. This means that some techs need to be banned.

[KC Elbows]

Elbow points are entertaining. :cool:

Just joking, I'm assuming you're referring to the evading combat thing. However, to the lay person, spending ten minutes locking on some bjj technique is not exactly lightning paced action, but you don't see any limits on that.

[LEGEND]

LOL...the first 3 UFC's had all very few rules...unfortunately...the POLITICIANs stepped in and cause alottttttttttttttttttt of problems...now u have the water down UFC.

A

[Silumkid]

Funny how a lot of these techniques were not banned until Royce quit attending. I seem to remember him using hair pulling ALL THE TIME! In fact, I believe that was how he managed to sink the choke on Kimo.

Reality my @ss.

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[KC Elbows]

I don't really have any problem with UFC, I just think too many people confuse it with a true fight. I mean, if someone shoots for me, they get the elbow, and if I get a chance, I'm definitely going to chin na someone into a downward elbow and try to finish the fight.

However, I recognize that people would be dying/crippled left and right without some rules, I just wish people would realize the limitations of these competitions. Of course, I think I'm mostly preaching to the choir here, as most of the (experienced) grapplers/noholds barred fighters on this forum are fully aware of the advantages and limitations of these competitions.

[Theogenes]

You have to remember, the first UFC's did not have those rules. UFC 1-4 only had the following rules:
1. No eye gouges
2. No fish hooking

Everything else was allowed, so it did do a fairly good job of showcasing one art against another art. Also, a couple other early NHB competitions were the same way, including Superbrawl, Extreme fighting, world combat championships, and of course, international vale tudo. Its only really been in the past couple years that we've seen so many rules and restrictions.

[SifuAbel]

What I want to see in these matches is more refined striking ability. Their is no doubting power in what they are doing now. These guys train their cheeks off. But, all too often you see nothing more than haymakers and bowlers as token to a shoot. Here an d there you see some cool handwork but it's few and far between.

Perhaps the players in todays venues just need more time. Some of these guys haven't trained for that long. It does take a few years for the understanding of boxing to sink in. The older f olks on the board will relate to this. Also concidering that it comes second in their training, it might take still more time.


I'm NOT taking away from those around that can do well with hands. But some can stand a bit of improvement.

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

[This message was edited by MaestroAbel on 10-05-01 at 03:52 PM.]

[Shaolindynasty]

The intention of this post was to show those "reality" guys who say kungfu and other arts other than BJJ, Muay Thai and the other favored MMA techs don't work that the UFC and NHB competitions in general have MANY restrictions. I don't see these fights as being any more realistic than kickboxing, san shou, Koushu lei tei etc. The UFC was created to showcase BJJ in the begining anyway. Also I noticed that these rules eliminate most anti grappling techniques and finishing movements of alot of styles that aren't ground based like BJJ creating the illusion that groundfighting is superior.

Throwing in the towel means you loose, fakeing an injury is not productive during a competition since the ref will stop the fight to check you. That's why I agree with that rule, holding the fence? I don't really have an opion on that

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[Archangel]

Lets look at the rules that you noted

Butting
Groin Attacks
Small joint manipulation
Striking to the spine or the back of the head
Striking downward using the point of the elbow
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh
Grabbing the clavicle
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent
Stomping a grounded opponent
Kicking to the kidney with the heel
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.

I'm just wondering, how many of these techniques are allowed in SanShou / Kyoushu or kick boxing

[Jaguar Wong]

______________
Butting with the head. What!?! I see so you have to grapple to get out of the guard.
______________

- Well, if someone has a bad/sloppy guard (unlike the master Royce ;)), you will see people actually punch their way out of it. If they can sit back on their haunches, and the guy is still trying to maintain a closed guard, and not going for a sweep, then you've got some good distance, as well as some open targets for things like punches, knifehands, and palm strikes/slaps

______________
Groin attacks of any kind. Disservice to strikers
______________

- Watching Joe Sun take 5-6 groin shots was more than enough for me to agree with this. BTW, he lost to a very sloppy thug style choke, not the groin shots :eek:
Small joint manipulation. Why?

______________
Striking to the spine or the back of the head. This severly limits defence other than grappleing for the shoot
______________

- Back when this was allowed, you never saw anyone successfully strike these targets to stop the shoot, although many have tried. I personally like this rule, because the grapplers are no longer allowed to hammer on the back of your head when they take the back mount. I would be screwed if this were allowed (I turtle a lot :D)


______________
Striking downward using the point of the elbow.This severly limits defence other than grappleing for the shoot
______________

- I think they put this in after so many guys were suffering some serious injuries from these strikes (Big Daddy busting Paul Herrera's eye socket, and some other guys suffering concussions). BTW, the Muay Thai/Praying Mantis/Kung Fu type slashing or spinning elbows still appear to be legal, unless I'm missing something.

______________
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea. Isn't that a kind of choke, oh it's not one usually used by BJJ stylist
______________

- Joe Son lost to that treachea grab choke. I think there's a danger of the windpipe collapsing due to these types of strikes/grabs. I'm not sure, though. I know I would personally aim for the sides of the neck still. No rule against that.
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh. This is heavily used in Kungfu, why is it illeagal? So nobody will get hurt?

______________
Grabbing the clavicle. Why?
______________

- Yeah that one bothers me too. Not that it would be a fight decider, it's just that I would be using that one like a clavicle grabbing fiend. Are there too many breaks to keep that in? I wonder. They don't limit striking the clavicle, which I would consider more dangerous.

______________
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent. Ah so you have to go to the ground to finish your oppenant instead of standing
______________

- Or wait for the to stand back up and take another beating from a stand up guy :) I'm sure this is another safety rule to protect the fighters. Not to limit the strikers.

______________
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
Stomping a grounded opponent. Ah so you have to go to the ground to finish your oppenant instead of standing
______________

- I'm guessing same as above.


______________
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck. Purpose of Chinese style throws? To throw the opponent to the ground on his head neck etc to cause injury
______________

- Igor Zinoviev almost had his career ended when Frank Shamrock slammed him on his neck, or shoulder. I think that's just too dangerous for a forum to test skills. I think this hurts Greco-Roman wrestling just as much, but still, c'mon they're still people in the octagon. Let's have some compassion people :)

Jaguar Wong

[Archangel]

Article 1 Participating fighters are not categorized on the basis of body weight.

Article 2 Fighters should wear open-finger-gloves that were provided by sponsors.

Article 3 Fighters are allowed to wear wresting singlet, kneecaps, elbow pads, shin guards, sticking plasters, or ankle supporters. The guards and pads mentioned above must be checked by referee. Fighters must wear mouthpiece and foul cups. Fighters must not use sticking plasters and bandages over fists. Fighters who use sticking plasters must be checked by referee before starting the match.

Article 4 Fighters must not apply anything on the surface of the body (oil, Vaseline, pain reliever, massage cream, hair-dressing, etc.).

Article 5 Fighters are prohibited from any types of kicks when they wear shoes during the match.

Article 6 A ring should be a seven-meter square, which is approved by the sponsors.

Article 7 Duration of a match is 15 minutes, scoring one positive point. In the case of a draw or neither side is decided to be win by judge after fifteen minutes, the match goes into another fifteen minutes. The extra rounds will be continued until either side wins. The interval between the rounds is two minutes.

Article 8 Victory or defeat is decided by the following conditions;
8.1. Ippon
Intention of giving up or losing one’s fighting spirit is expressed orally or tapping opponent or the mat three times or more.
8.2. Technical Knockout

8.2.a. Referee stop


In case that the referee sees that one side completely dominates another, and that the inferior side may fall in danger.

8.2.b. Doctor stop


In case that one side gets injured by fair blows of the opponent and cannot continue the match, his opponent will be declared winner. It is the ring doctor who will be the one to decide whether the fighter can continue or not. In case that the injury was made by illegal actions, the one who commits these actions will be declared loser.

8.2.c. Forfeited match


In case that second of either side throws a towel in the ring during the round. If the referee does not notice this, it is the judges who stop the match.
8.3. Decision

Decision is made by three judges. Decision is made according to the damage given to the opponent, combination & ground control, down-taking & defense, aggressiveness and weight (in case that the weight difference is 10kg or more). (Match may end in a draw.)
8.4. Disqualification

A "warning" may be given when a fighter commits an illegal action or does not follow referee’s instruction. Three warnings make fighter disqualified.
8.5. No contest (Invalid match)

In case that the both sides commit violation of the rules, or that the judges and sponsors decide that the match cannot be continued due to contingent matters.
Article 9 Following act is regarded as illegal action. When fighter commits any of these illegal actions, he will be given a "warning" from referee. Warning will be considered negative points at making decision of the match. Three warnings make a fighter disqualified. Furthermore, the fighter who commits an illegal action must be imposed ten percent of the fight money per a warning as a penalty to the promoter.

9.1. Biting

9.2. Throwing something into the eyes

9.3. Butt

9.4. Attacking the groin

9.5. Grasping hair

9.6. Hard blows to occipital region of head, medulla oblongata, and spinal cord. (Occipital region of head indicates the back of head, and that does not indicate the side of head or around ears.)

9.7. Elbow blow to head and face.

9.8. To hold the rope and to stay holding it purposely. Fighters must not hang an arm or a leg on the rope purposely. Hanging an upper arm is an immediate caused of warning.

9.9. Escaping out of the ring.

9.10. Throwing the opponent out of the ring.

9.11. Kicking or knee kicking to the head or the face of the opponent who falls on his face. (Fighters are prohibited from blowing against the face and the head when four or more positions of the following places touch the mat; both hands, both legs, both elbows, or both knees.)
Article 10 In case that a fighter gets severe damage by illegal actions, the round resumes after enough time of break for the sufferer to recover at the discretion of referee and ring doctor. When ring doctor decides the match cannot be continued based on the conditions stipulated in the article 8-2, the fighter who commits the illegal actions will be declared disqualification.
Article 11 In case that both fighters are about to fall from the ring, the referee calls out “Stop. Don’t move.” The fighters must immediately stop their movements and must be pulled back to the center of the ring as they were in the movement. They resume the fight at the referee’s call.
Article 12 In case that either fighter goes out of the ring, he must immediately return to the ring, and resume the round in the standing position at the center of the ring.
Article 13 In case that a fighting is stopped in the standing position, or that one fighter is in the ground position (lies on the back) and the other is in the standing position and be at a deadlock, referee may calls out the break at his discretion.
Article 14 Fighters and seconds are demanded absolute obedience to referee’s decision and instructions
Article 15 Fighters may be accompanied by up to three seconds. The seconds must stay at their corner during the match. They must not directly touch fighters during the match. In case that any of them violates any of these rules, they must be imposed ten percent of the fight money per a warning as a penalty to the promoter.
Article 16 Fighters must see the doctor before the match on the day at the venue.


Special Rules

Special rules of the final at PRIDE GP2000
ÅE Duration of a round for second qualifying and semi-final is fifteen minutes, and extra rounds will be continued until either side wins.
ÅE Duration of a round for the final is twenty minutes, and extra rounds will be continued until either side wins.
* As for the match that Royce Gracie fights, decisions by judges are not considered as Gracie side requested. As for the other matches, results are decided by decision at every round as they were already done as in the opening matches.
* As for the match that Royce Gracie fights, only when a fighter who taps or whose second throws a towel in the ring is declared loser, and referee stop and doctor stop are not considered.
* At the final, the decision by judges is not earned even if Royce Gracie does not appear. In case of the final without Royce Gracie, referee stop and doctor stop are considered.
* As for the matches without Royce Gracie, in case that a fighting is stopped in the ground position and be at a deadlock, referee may calls out the break at his discretion, only on condition that the weight difference is 10kg or more.

Except for article 9.7 which I do disagree with is there anything here that is legal in SanShou/ Koushu or kickboxing

[Jaguar Wong]

"Throwing in the towel during competition.OK"

Wait, another stupid rule!! What if your fighter is getting killed? It's ok for boxers to throw in the towel for the atlete's saftey, why not here?

RD:
They're basically saying your fighter would be disqualified, ending the fight. Or something like that. I guess they had to find a way to throw it in there, so people know about it.

Jaguar Wong

[Mr. Nemo]

Those pride rules are actually outdated - I don't know what they're doing on the website.

Anyway, currently, knees and kicks/stomps to the head are allowed on an opponent on the ground, unless the weight difference is 10kg or more, in which case the smaller fighter can decide whether he wants them or not.

Also, the fights now consist of one ten-minute round and two five-minute rounds.

[jimmy23]

"See UFC matches are all fixed. Just like Tank said. "

And we never sent men to the moon either :)


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

[Archangel]

I'm just cutting and pasting here so i'm not sure if these are 100% acurate

SAN SHOU TECHNIQUES

Legal Techniques;

Punches to the head and body.
Kicks to the head, body and legs.
Throws and takedowns.

Illegal Techniques;

Biting.
Head Butts.
Knee Strikes.
Joint Attacks.
Elbow Strikes.
Holding and Hitting.
Open Hand Strikes.
Strikes to the Groin.
Strikes to the Knees.
Kicks or Punches to the Spine.
Throws that involve Joint Manipulation.
Kicks or Punches to the back of the Head.
GROUNDWORK

--------------------------------------------------

I don't see anything that is allowed in San Shou that isn't in MMA. San Shou as you can see is lacking Groundwork and Submission, which severley limit competition.

[Archangel]

KUOSHU FULL-CONTACT LEI TAI FIGHTING RULES

Contestants will fight on a 24 square foot, normally two-foot high lei tai platform.
Competitors must use mandatory designated style headgear with facemask, designated Kuoshu open finger gloves, mouthpiece and groin cup. Competitors will wear a standard mat or martial art shoe. If competitor does not have a martial art shoe, both competitors will fight barefoot. No additional body protection is allowed, including shin or arm pads, wraps of any type on hand, foot, joints, etc., unless authorized by the attending physician on site for any injury.
There will be three rounds. Each round lasts two minutes with a 1-minute rest in between rounds. The victor must win two out of the three maximum rounds. Preliminary elimination and semi-final rounds may be shortened due to time constraints, at the discretion of the tournament director.
Points will be scored by each of 5 corner judges. At the end of each round, each judge will declare a winner for that round. The winner of the match must win two out of the three rounds.
Throws must be clearly executed within three seconds from the time the throw has begun. If both fighters fall, the throw is void and scores no points. Any type of throw may be used as long as the initiating fighter does not touch the lei tai at all with any part of his or her body during the course of the throw. If he does, the throw is void and no points are scored.
Each fighter may have a maximum of two corner people. There will be no coaching from the corners allowed during the rounds. This or her rule will be strictly enforced and coaching from the corners during rounds may result in the deduction of points from the fighter or disqualification of the fighter.
Any team coach disputing the results of a match and wishing to have an arbitration of a match for any reason must notify the head referee verbally within 30 minutes of the match. The team coach must then file a written request for arbitration along with a $300 arbitration fee to the tournament director. If the arbitration is settled in favor of the arbitrating team, the fighter shall receive a refund of his or her registration fee.
At the beginning of each match, the referee will signal the opponents to bow to the head table. The referee will then signal opponents to bow to each other and set the opponents to fight.
If a fighter has a "bye", they must still show up at the lei tai in their designated corner prepared to fight in gear. Referee will call them to the lei tai and designate them the winner of the match.
If a fighter is injured during the match and the referee decides they need medical attention, the fighter must be able to return to their corner. If they can not do so, the match goes to their opponent. They shall have 5 minutes to be declared ready to fight again. If no, the match goes to their opponent.
All rules are in accordance with the International Chinese Kuoshu Federation Rules.


FULL CONTACT SCORING:


Contestant executes clear punch or kick to head, body, or legs (above the knee) - one point. Point may be scored with an open or closed hand.
There will be no points scored for kicks below the knee unless executed as a sweep, knocking opponent to the lei tai which scores two points.
Contestant executes clear punch or kick that knocks opponent down - scores one point for the punch or kick and two points for the fall to the Lei Tai.
Without falling or touching the Lei Tai with any part of the body, contestant successfully throws opponent to the Lei Tai - scores two points. If both competitors fall, no points will be scored.
Contestant forces or throws opponent off Lei Tai - scores three points. If both competitors fall off of Lei Tai together, no points are scored. If contestant clearly executes a punch or kick that knocks opponent off Lei Tai an additional point will be scored for the punch or kick.
Contestant loses balance and falls to Lei Tai or touches any part of his body to Lei Tai - one point deducted from his or her score.
Contestants will accumulate points during each round.
Three knockdowns in one round constitute disqualification of the fighter who is knocked down.


FULL CONTACT PENALTIES:

Contact to the eyes, throat, back of head or groin is illegal.
Kicks to knee joints are illegal.
Techniques using the head, knee or elbows are not allowed in Unites States competitions.
The first violation of the rules results in a warning. On the second violation, referees will deduct one point from the competitor's score. On the third violation, referees will disqualify the competitor.
Serious infractions of the rules will result in immediate disqualification.
Competitors who maliciously hurt their opponents will be held liable for any damages or injuries. Executive referee has full authority to stop the fight anytime for safety or any other reason.


HMMM again, nothing that is allowed here that isn't allowed in MMA, your even forced head gear and a face shield.

[Knifefighter]

Are UFC and other MMA events reality? Not at all. However, they are closer to reality than any other venue out there. Try one yourself and you will see. If you've never been in the cage yourself, I guarantee you don't have a clue..

[jimmy23]

knifefighter is correct.


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

[SifuAbel]

So I suppose that being attacked by two guys in a club bathroom doesn't count?Ç

Are you immortal?
sifuabel@yahoo.com

[jimmy23]

it sure does count maestro!


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

[gazza99]

The UFC is of course not reality, as for the elbow to the back of the neck/head. I have used that strike to KO someone that tryed to shoot me in a real fight,luckily for me it worked very well!
Its usless to debate over which rules are better for strikers/grapplers etc.. It should be obvious that when you take away the more dangerous strikes/attackes the fight will end up on the ground.
Knifefighter is right, as its more real than anything else Ive seen. Its just annoying that many of the BJJ/MMA crowd believes themselves to be invincible because of their success in the UFC.
Raleks attitude (sorry Josh) is the most glaring product of this mentality. When the reality is that a MA practictioner of any art (including BJJ/MMA) will most likely use a much more dangerous technique and prevent the fight from ever having to go the ground. A skilled fighter should not have to end up on the ground unless he is caught by suprise, or there are more than one attackers.
My instructor (Erle Montaigue) has always said "If you have to go to the ground, get a new teacher" of course its good to be well versed in all ranges, as you never know...
regards
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[Royal Dragon]

What's with the name change? did you get banned under your old name?


"Chi is Chinese for Spinach"

Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

[Xebsball]

Archangel, no one said that Kuoshu/San Da are more real than UFC, people just said that the rules of UFC make it not completly real.
I agree that Nhb is the closest thing to reality in a sportive format.

-------------------------
"Faltou luz mas era Dia, o Sol invadiu a sala. Fez da tv um espelho, refletindo o que a gente esquecia."

[Shaolindynasty]

I brought up San shou Kuoshu etc. but I said NEITHER was reality fighting. I am not against UFC as a sport but I do have a problem with people who come on here and use it in arguemnets and think it is the ultimate test for an arts effectivness when it is clearly a sport in it's self. I never meant to say that those fighters were weak or lacked real skills and not all of the MMA crowd beleive UFC is real BUT there are those guys here that believe the press and ads

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[Archangel]

This is what Shaolindynasty stated.

"I don't see these fights as being any more realistic than kickboxing, san shou, Koushu lei tei etc"

I really don't know how else you can interpret this statement.

[Xebsball]

Ok, sorry.
I didnt read the whole thing :D

-------------------------
"Faltou luz mas era Dia, o Sol invadiu a sala. Fez da tv um espelho, refletindo o que a gente esquecia."

[Archangel]

No Problem Xebsball

[krome]

-------------------------
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh. This is heavily used in Kungfu, why is it illeagal? So nobody will get hurt?
-------------------------

You fight like a woman! These techs are stupid and gay. I like a good fight like anybody but the minute guys start finger poken and nobin crank, that is when I stop watching.

Ohhh no he is going to use the dreeded "purple nurple" technique of high school bully clan.

If you can't win run, run like Hell.

[Xebsball]

Do you have a problem with clawing? Huh?

-------------------------
"You will never need to feel weak, helpless, indecisive, not fascinating or ashamed of your genital dimensions. GOOD-BYE Humiliation. Bullies, Karate Experts, Boxing Champions, traffic wardens will melt to pulp as you master every situation."
Master Deltoo
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stadium/2477/

[krome]

Actually when I'm grappling and someone claws me I don't notice till after the match.

Now clawing could be effective if you were say a lion or a tiger, but if your a human it's just a waste of your time.


Also 5 min rounds sucks for grapplers. It sometimes takes a while to wear someone down to be able to get a submission.

If you can't win run, run like Hell.

[Jaguar Wong]

Blender,
I think when you're mocking stuff like clawing and pinching, you're probably just thinking about stuff like you would see in a school yard, used to torment the underclassmen. There are some targets that wouldn't be so pleasant to have tugged around. I'm not saying that they'll be fight enders, but I don't like the idea of someone yanking my ears to whip my head in which ever direction they need for a good shoot.

Also, I always hear stuff about pressure points being useless while grappling, and for the most part everthing I've tried on my brother (out of desparation) failed miserably, but I'm no expert in stuff like that. So that's why I thought it was very interesting that one of the guard passes that I learned in bjj used the elbows to press down and out on two pressure points on the inner thighs. I have used this particular pass with some degree of success to not only pass the guard, but take a more dominant position (it's usually the side mount). I've even been able to use it against the blue belt that's showing us all this stuff. It didn't do much good (I later moved into a triangle choke, with his arms, that almost tore my head off, because I tried to tuck my chin....he's got tree trunk arms).

I'm not sure if that's abig point or not...Just thought I'd bring it up. :)

Oh yeah, before I forget, I agree that the 5 min rounds hurts the grapplers more than the strikers, because a patient grappler can wear out his opponent better than a patient striker. There just isn't enough time to do that anymore in the UFC, so I guess it's more exciting for us to watch. Unless you count the last one. :p

Jaguar Wong

[tnwingtsun]

Works VERY well on the streets.

I know this from experience.

[LEGEND]

I recommend u guys going to SUNCOAST and getting a video tape named...LIFE IN NHB...it's a documentary of the SHARK TEAM training for NHB/MMA fighting...there are many drill footage that will help u guys and understand this sport. U will see for example...elbows to the back of the head...boxing techs used while grappling etc...u will understand a lot tech. wise. And u will understand the mentality of a MMA. None of them are really disrespectful...no mention of traditional arts. It's just a GYM documentary.

A

[Shaolindynasty]

I'll look into that tape. I know most top MMA guys are very respectful but alot of wannabe's on this forum aren't, in fact they mock us when we aren't even talking to them(trolls). I also don't doubt that some of those fighters train for real use as well as the sport but I am talking strictly talking about the sport. I am just trying to illustrate the point that the UFC is no more real than any other sport.

New classes New online Catalog
www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[Archangel]

I guess you missed my posts where I clearly detailed the rules and regulations of the combative sports you mentioned. It proved without a shadow of a doubt that the UFC/MMA has less rules than any other competition thus making it more realistic than any other.

[Shaolindynasty]

I don't beleive in a competition being a little real or different degress in realism to me either it is or it isn't and when you look at the rules for both how does the less rules of the UFC make it more realistic, the foul list is essentialy the same? UFC is heavy grappling and Koushou is heavy striking so the rules fit the "average" competitor, That's why every time somthing unexpected happens in the UFC they create a new rule (fish hooking, no throwing on head etc.). When people think of UFC now they think grappling and they go there and do it so the rules reflect this. In the last UFC on BJJ guy kept "lying down" trying to get the other guy to get on top of him how real is that?(you big fans should know the guys names).

My point is NO competition is real and....see my last post.

New classes New online Catalog
www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[Archangel]

"I don't beleive in a competition being a little real or different degress in realism to me either it is or it isn't and when you look at the rules for both how does the less rules of the UFC make it more realistic, the foul list is essentialy the same?"

This issue is not black and white like you may think different degrees of realism do exist. The foul list is essentially the same except for the blaringly obvious exclusion of groundfighting in San Shou/Koushu. You see, there are more rules in San Shou/Koushu, there are less fouls in MMA(since there is a foul for groundfighting in San Shou/Koushu) thus it is closer to a real fight. I'll try to illustrate this for you here


(Point Sparring)---------------------------------(Real Fight)


This extremely crude model shows an approximate range of realism for certain fighting competitions. With a real fight having no rules, each time you add a rule you move left on the scale. MMA would be closer to a real fight because it has less fouls and less rules than San Shou Koushu. Really, if you don't see this point ask me again and i'll repeat it.


"UFC is heavy grappling and Koushou is heavy striking so the rules fit the "average" competitor, That's why every time somthing unexpected happens in the UFC they create a new rule (fish hooking, no throwing on head etc.)."

UFC is heavy grappling and striking right now, You see it allows you to pursue both equally. It doesn't limit you by saying you cannot fight in a certain range like Koushu does. Also new rules are being placed to satisfy the sanctioning bodies of this country; people do want the safety of the fighters to come first here. IVC in brazil still (i think) has just the 2 rules of no biting and eye gouging.

"When people think of UFC now they think grappling and they go there and do it so the rules reflect this"

Oh come on, the reason why grappling exists in the MMA format is because it is an essential part of fighting. Some of the rules, like 5 minute standups actually hurt the grapplers.

"In the last UFC on BJJ guy kept "lying down" trying to get the other guy to get on top of him how real is that?(you big fans should know the guys names)."

Oh, is that anymore real than a ref saying in Koushu, please stand up, You are NOT ALLOWED to fight on the ground here. At least hear people have the choice of where to bring the fight they are not limited because this style of fighting doesn't ALLOW this range.

"My point is NO competition is real and....see my last post"

I agree with you, but some are CLOSER TO REALITY than others.

[Braden]

God knows I don't want to get dragged into this argument again, but since no one else ever makes this point...

The reason less rules doesn't make a tournament closer to real life is because the important differences between tournament fighting and real fighting have NOTHING to do with what the fouls are.

The entire evolution of conflict is entirely different (in many ways, the exact opposite) in tournaments as in real life. This has to do with mental aspects, physicals aspects, the way range changes, the way direction is used, environmental factors, etc. In your training you can maximize your performance in regards to these aspects for tournaments, or you can do it for reality. There are some important technical differences for each case. This does not change in the 'tournament case' if you alter the fouls.

Tournament-style fighting is incredibly useful at testing and training certain aspects of your real fighting game. Like doing bench-presses if you're a shotlifter. However, it would be a grave mistake to believe by altering the weight on the barbell, or where you grip it, or how low you go, or how fast you move that you can turn the bench press into a shotput. Same deal here.

[Archangel]

Whats up. I noticed you're from Canada, how was your thanksgiving.

God know we've gone back and for on this subject, hell one more time won't hurt.

Lets take the two extremes here, MMA and lets say TKD point sparring. You honestly cannot see the advantages of a MMA tournament over point sparring. Yes your mentality and your environmental awareness plays a huge part in the outcome of a fight (probably the biggest factor) but let us not discount the completeness of your arsenal or your ability to fight within striking, wrestling and groundfighting.

Unless you carry a gun, they will come into play and the person who has experience dealing with a takedown, dealing with heavy strikes, dealing with the ground and dealing with a 100% resisting oponent will have an advantage. That means the MMA fighter will have the advantage.

As far as the shot put analogy goes. I'm willing to bet that they guy who trains his bench press, military press, power clean, squat and puts his reps on the field (MMA guy), will do better than the guy who only does only a few of the excersises.

[Knifefighter]

==================================================
However, it would be a grave mistake to believe by altering the weight on the barbell, or where you grip it, or how low you go, or how fast you move that you can turn the bench press into a shotput.
==================================================

Actually, the basic principles of exercise science demand that you do alter those things in strength/power exercises depending on the activity for which you are training and they do make a difference to how you perform in that specific event.

[Braden]

kf - I agree completely. I think you missed the point. Although that could very well be my fault.

Arch - I agree completely with what you said. You have to have full contact blows, honestly resisting opponents, etc. I guess I'm trying to emphasize more the value of more goal-specific tournament-style fighting methods. Like grappling-only, standing-only, etc, as well as other situational training methods. But like you suggested, if you're not actually hitting each other, etc, there's going to be problems.

Thanksgiving was good. My girlfriend is in town for a couple months. That makes anything good.

[wolfkiller]

mma competitions still doesn't approximate reality more than other combat sports because they are allowing a set of techniques( groundfighting) but not allowing another set of techniques which are effective against groundfighting like kicking an opponent while he's down. or holding on to the fence or running away as much as you want.

just my two cents.

[Black Jack]

Just for the record, if the current commerical venues, UFC, Pride, San Shou and so forth have to many limiting rules for a kung fu stylist their are other more grass roots non-commerical events for a person to partake in if they wanted to test out their skills.

I have heard you can find fighters in other countries like Mexico, South America, Thailand, Burma, Laos, Russia, and the Middle East, that will handle your "no-rules" matches.

In Burma they have Thaing matches, real no rule fights, eye gouges, headbutts, whatever.

A buddy of mine, a 7 Star guy in Point Loma, San Diego, has attended and watched a number of all you got street matches in after hours over the border dance clubs, even in our major cities their might be found underground street fight nights , cage matches, and what have you.

If that is even a problem, and you are really serious, go find a way to arrange a private fight with a boxer from the innercity, or even a street thug, or see if anybody from a real biker club like the Outlaws, Hells Angles, Banditos or Pagans will give you a match to test your skills for some cash and brews.

All I am trying to say is that if you want a real no-rules match and what you see out their is to limiting for your tastes, with effort and creativity, something can be arranged.

Whats the difference if its a public venue or not, that matters for nothing, I thought to you guys this was about testing your skills.

Just thoughts,

[wolfkiller]

those private fights ought to be fun to watch but not to partake in.

by the way have any kung fu practitioners participated inthe k-1 or pride competitions?

[Leonidas]

I think some hardcore Martial Artist would love to participate in a street fight. They wouldn't like the possiblilty of being shot, stabbed and or pummeled to death afterwards, win or lose.

[respectmankind]

grappling is more safe, you can be shown an armbar, or even demonstarted on at full force and you won't get hurt because of control, can you cay the same about a throat shot? I would say looking at UFC and thinking it is proof grappling is more effective is BS, but in a ring fight it is more appropriate because of the safety each person deserves.

[taijiquan_student]

Even though I think some strikers have criticicized the UFC's rules as an excuse for not knowing how to deal with grappling, reading the rules, it is obvious and clear that a fighter who primarily strikes is at a very large disadvantage.

[fightfan]

Black Jack is correct! Brazilian vale tudo competitions only have a couple of rules and they get broken all the time! The ref seems to be there just for show. I just got a event called Bloody Manaus and they dont even use gloves!
One things for sure, no matter what style the fighter fights under, they all know their stuff on the ground. Why? Simple. Because if they dont, they lose! :cool:

[Merryprankster]

Some good points here...

Can I suggest something? The majority of the techniques-clavical pulls, pressure points, etc, are more useful in the grappling range than any other.

I might also point out that headbutts, knees to the head of a downed opponent, elbows to a downed opponent, etc, are FAR more effective, and in some cases, only possible when you are on TOP.

If we're using a rules favor grapplers arguement, then the above doesn't fly.

Who, percentage wise, is more likely to be on top, the "grappler" or the "striker"? Mark Coleman and Mark Kerr rue the day headbutts were made illegal, along with knees to the head, elbows to the head of a downed opponent, etc.

I agree that elbows to the spine and back of the head should be allowed. If for no other reason than to demonstrate that they are low percentage defenses to a shot. I'm sure many here will disagree with me, but the truth is that knocking people out isn't THAT simple, and if the guy is shooting, you'd better knock him out with the first couple of shots because you aren't going to get any more. That doesn't mean it can't work... just that it's low percentage.

I don't say these things to suggest that "strikers," have it better, but to suggest that the rules were about even.

I think they've tried to be fair with the rules.

I also don't think it's reality--but it's the closest legal venue available--the best test of skills for people who don't want to go out and fight in the exceptionally illegal environment of the streets and get shot.

[jimmy23]

I cant belive that I have to make this point again, but Brazillain Vale Tudo matches have been going on for 75 years, and with only two rules -no biting, no eye gouging- and grapplers have dominated there.

[Merryprankster]

Jimmy--preaching to the choir man! Everytime restrictive rules are mentioned as the reason that "x" doesn't do well in UFC type events, I point to brazil vale tudo and russian events...

If somebody REALLY wants an event where techniques are practically not restricted at all, then those venues suffice.

I do believe that Braden is correct that ring success does not translate to street success.

The ring is a good indication of fighting skill... but self-defense covers situational awareness and other sorts of things.

As before, the ring is not the street.. but neither is the kwoon....

[jimmy23]

good points, the street is a different animal. But, MMA training combined with awareness is, IMO, better than static , no contact training with street awareness.

[Stacey]

What would you prefer? San Shou? Give me a break. UFC is the best thing kung fu has seen.

San Shou limits you far more than the UFC. UFC is a sport. I say, take the shot if you have it. YOu can lose, but if the other guy is knocked out it is easy to see who really won. Thats what I used to love about the UFC. One winner, one loser, no question. Rarely a judges decision.

Well its still the best. Most places don't charge to compete or even pay you vs. San shou which can be pretty pricey.

If your scared of another fighting range, then may I suggest TKD pointfighting? Thats what everyone else who can't play sports does. If you can't hang, do TKD. You may even go to the olympics and be a king amoung nerds.

[Ford Prefect]

LOL! I'm glad I just skipped to the last page!

[jimmy23]

Watch your mouth call TKD pointfighting lame!

[MrBob]

"After looking at this foul list can anybody obviouly say that UFC is a style vs. style competition?"

I've got news for you it quit being style vs Style sometime between 10 and 15. And oh yeah, BJJ and Wrestling won.

-----------------------------------------

"Butting with the head. What!?! I see so you have to grapple to get out of the guard."

In all of the 70+ events that I have watched, From UFC, Pride, AFC, WVC, IVC, Mecca, Shooto, etc. That rule hurt Wrestlers the most by far.

-------------------------------------
"Fish hooking.I am not sure what this is"

That's where you stick your finger in a guys mouth or nose and pull on it. This probably isn't a good explanation. But Oh well.

----------------------------------------

"Small joint manipulation. Why?"

Probably political more than anything, I've never seen anybody really even try that anyway.
---------------------------

"Striking to the spine or the back of the head. This severly limits defence other than grappleing for the shoot"

yes, but most of the time when anybody would strike to this area it's when they have the guys back with their hooks in. So IMHO that one hurts grapplers more than strikers.

----------------------------------------------------

"Striking downward using the point of the elbow.This severly limits defence other than grappleing for the shoot"

This is a weirdly enforced rule, they allow an arching elbow/forarm strike, but if you watch guys like Tito Ortiz, he uses the point of the elbow.

-------------------------------------

"Kicking the head of a grounded opponent. Ah so you have to go to the ground to finish your oppenant instead of standing

Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
Stomping a grounded opponent. Ah so you have to go to the ground to finish your oppenant instead of standing"

Most Hardcore MMA fans ***** about these rules. These are Political more than anything else. Because they look "too savage". Pride allows them.

------------------------------------------

"Kicking to the kidney with the heel. Why?"

The only people that I ever saw use these were BJJ Posterboys the Gracies.

-----------------------------------------

"Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent. So a BJJ guy could use his Gi against you but you can't use it against him? or are gis not allowed anymore"

This is to prevent stalling, and seeing the fighter's asses. Go watch Millitech vs Burnette and you will be glad they instituted this rule. Also Gi's aren't allowed in the UFC.

---------------------------------------

"They can't, this competition is deffenitly not style vs style anymore"

again it quit being a Style vs Style match a long time ago.
-------------------------------

Why isn't none of you guys ever mention how stand ups and Rds, hurt grapplers?

[Mr. Nemo]

lol@Ford Prefect, that's what I did too. Everyone on this page is correct.

[JusticeZero]

Well, let's look at another one..

>Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.

While i'm not exactly a Kung Fu stylist, this rule takes my art completely out of the running. Most everything we do is based on evasions! I couldn't even attempt to use 90% of my arsenal because it would be 'avoiding contact'. I hardly call that inclusive or realistic.

[red_fists]

Here is my take on it.

UFC, Pride, K1 and many other like them are moving slowly but surely into the public domain and with that comes a profit margin for the organisers.

A Profit margins mean that the viewers decide which rules and which formats the Competitions will use.

Go against the paying public and your profit margins drops.

So I think e will see quiet a few rule adjustements over the next few years, some for the better and some not.

Just my 2 Yen worth.

[Merryprankster]

Justice,

What they are talking about is refusal to engage. You're allowed to evade and counter attack, but you aren't allowed to just run away from the opponent

[scotty1]

Yeah Justice I think you're taking the rules a little too literally there. It doesn't mean you have to let your opponent hit you.

BTW, just a quick diversion, what's a heelhook? I've heard a lot about them being quite nasty, but I don't know what they are.