Bak Mei Sets

[8 Sweaty Palms]

How many empty hand sets comprise most Bak Mei studies? Four? Eight? What are they called?

MSM

[fiercest tiger]

well i know someone that has around 40 sets altogether HAND SET that is.

i think the clc clan may have 15-18 hand sets of pak mei that are taught out today. i could be wrong! look at the clc clan site! or other bak mei sites, there is different bak mei popping up everywhere these days. ;)

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[CannonFist]

There are only two pure Bak Mei sets, Gow Bo Toi (9 step push) and Sap Bat Mor Kiu (18 Touching Bridges). The others are created by Cheung Lai Chuen or adopted from his other martial arts styles.

[MoQ]

and the Sup Bat Mor Kiu isn't one of them...

[fiercest tiger]

apparently clc learnt many forms from monk chuk fat wan. mung fu chut lum, sup bat mor kuil, gou bou toy, jik bo kuen, are the so called core forms of bak mei, the rest was mixed with lung ying pai. clc recreated the bak mei system by adding dragon style, because of his close friend ship and training with lam yui gwa, and called himself grandmaster of bak mei.

there are many stories about this, who knows and who will tell the TRUTH!!! :)

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[Shaolin Master]

A little more specific (but in brief)

Chueng Lai Chun Studied Li Gar Style then Village(Beggar's) Style and some Lung Ying. Thereafter he met a student of monk until he then studied only 3 yrs with the monk(whom was very old already at the time) learning sets Gau Bo Tui, Meng Fu Chut Lum and Sup Bat Mor Kiu.

As a result Chueng Lai Chun consolidated his skills and thus many forms based on his other studies were correlated with the Bai Mei. As an example Chut Sup Yi Dai Sat Kuen & Sam Mun Kuen is Li Gar Style as is the Stick sets.

Peace

[Lau]

Hi Shaolin master,

This is the same story that I was told. Good to hear that other lineages also practice Sam Moon kuen. Some people say that this form is Lung Ying because of the beginning. But I was always told that it is Lee Gar. We also practice 2 lee gar stick forms and 3 Lee Gar two person stick sets. I believe that the Tiger fork form (daai pah) is also from Lee Gar. I like the lee Gar forms very much because of their practicallity. No flashy moves but all very effective.

As for the Pak Mei forms, until recently I had never heard of Ng Hang Mor. But now you and some other pak mei practitioners here on this board write about it. and last month I also received an old article in which it is mentioned. But you don't mention it above in the Pak Mei forms. So I'm getting curious. Is this form Pak Mei? Or is it a combination of Pak Mei and Lung Ying made by CLC?

Regards, Lau (lalau88@hotmail.com

[MoQ]

Sup Bat Mor Kiu is from Lung Ying.
72 Dai Sat Kuen is an original BM set.
Meng Fu Chut Lum is a CLC invention.

ShaolinMaster/KungFuLegend/DreamLover- Hat's off to your books of course, but what do you actually practice? You don't practice Bak Mei though am I right? Are you part of any lineage? What is it you actually practice, like Cha Kuen, Ng Ying Kuen etc like KFLegend claims?
We all know you are nothing special as a person, so just drop the BS and pick a couple styles that you have proficiency in... Does your teacher realize that someone like yourself has access to these other materials? Does he know that you use the contents of these amalgamated texts to insult lineages you have nothing to do with?

[L D S]

Shaolin Master is correct:
Gau Bo Tui, Mang Fu Chut Lam and Sap Baat Mor Kiu are original Bak Mei sets.

Saam Moon Kuen and Sap Ji Kuen are Lee Family.
I agree with Lau about the practicallity of these sets.

Ng Hang Mor, "5 element rubbing", also belongs to the original sets of Bak Mei. But this is an advanced form.

Many Bak Mei Sifu teach more sets, especially from Leung Ying. But these sets are for beginners.
All the (original) Bak Mei sets are advanced sets.

Jik Bo Kuen being created as beginners set.

Ling

[Shaolin Master]

Ling, lau – who are your teachers, it is good that you are aware of CLC’s diverse background in addition to Bak Mei. Should this forum become a nuisance please email me instead. CLC is a excellent grandmaster with undeniable skills, though he did not teach solely bak mei (as we all know).

MoQ
Can we discuss without the personal problems involved :) If you see this clearly (without bias) you will know :

Of your 5 Original Bak Mei forms .

Gau Bo Tui
Ying Jow Leen Kiu
Chut Sup Yee Lo Dae Saat Kuen
Chut sup yee lo Tin Gong Kuen
Saam Mun Kuen.

ONLY Gau Bo Tui is ORIGINAL not the others.

You see 72 and Sam mun are concepts of Li Ga Kuen.
If you know Li Gar Kuen then you would know.
In fact Eagle Claw’s and Folding palms are essential components of Li Gar Kuen.

Here is a few more additional points:

Meng Fu Chut Lum is BM 100% in fact it was known as simply Fu Bo Kuen or Fu Kuen in the past.
Sup Bat Mo Kiu : was actually known as Sup Bat Sao, it was original but slighlty modified by CLC and thus the change of name.

Gau Bo Tui is something else as well.

The advanced forms (only 2)well……let’s leave those aside. [For those that know and wish to discuss use email]

Now without revealing too much this is as it is.

FT, so what is yours and your friend’s (AT) ideas here.

What do I practice : I practice Tai Chi :) and I am only a beginner :).

PS : Interesting thought on Miu Hin, why would a “Buddhist” art be called 18 "Daoist" palms

[billy_pilgrim]

"Should this forum become a nuisance please email me instead."

Well, this is certainly cogent advice from the Master. Hell, there are trolls popping up here seemingly every week, then when they're unmasked, they offer empty half-assed apologies and blame everyone else for their silly behavior. Cogent advice indeed.

BTW, there is no art called "18 Daoist palms"...why are you under the deluded impression that there is? Maybe you should check your reference materials a little more carefully next time.

[Shaolin Master]

Apologies on the 18 daoist palms then (I thought I saw it on some BFP site ).

[billy_pilgrim]

Your attempts at being coy are even weaker than your attempts at being erudite.

Speaking of websites, when will your's be finished? And, also, will you have the decency to paraphrase all of the stuff that you post here once you put it on your site, or will you continue to plagarize the text?

Props to you though for learning Tai Chi from a book, I don't think I could've pulled that off.

[fiercest tiger]

ying jow lin kuil is not original, it is from lung ying pai made from lung ying more kuil.

day sut is not original either!
sarm man or sarm mun baqua isnt original!

he learnt from

lee gar,
low man pai(nomad=gypsy=wanders)
many different dragon masters
also heard he learnt some bfp???

the original forms what i was told is what i already said. fu bo kuen was at one time called mung fu chut lum, that is correct.

clc's kung fu was the best, he mixed it with everything weapons are from lee gar, and others too.

there is a big influence on dragon in pak mei, thats why it can be crossed trained and many of the clubs clc had opened lam yui gwai taught there to at one stage. so all students learned both styles. many of the last grandmaster know dragon as well as pak mei. when clc went hongkong then he opened bak mei and there was a new sylibus that was different to guangzhou. there was additions to many forms and added forms to it as well.

sm- i have already asked sifu troung about this and he agree's with me on this. i could be wrong!!!

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[PotJunkie]

G'day everyone

This is my first post. I wanted to know when you learn each form and how long it takes to learn a form.

[fiercest tiger]

i teach in sydney, who do you learn under or do you teach bak mei?

are you a student of sifu andy troung or his sifu?

where do you study, welcome aboard! :D

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[Kevin Barkman]

Hello all - I used to think Bak Mei was a fairly straight forward style until I logged on here!

Does anyone know where the set "Dan Gig" (aka Dam Kiew) came from? It does not seem Gau Bo Toi-ish in nature (which seems to be the only set people universally agree as being original Bak Mei). It seems closer to LY's Fah Gig. In fact, it seems several BM sets are named close to their original LY counterpart.

What about "Stone Lion"? If these sets are not original Bak Mei (whatever the hell that is), then CLC must have created them himself, as many of the concepts have been borrowed from Dragon and combined with other arts (Eagle Claw? N. Mantis?).

Has anyone also heard of "poison snake blocks the road" hand set? The more I learn, the more confused I get...

Cheers - kevin

[fiercest tiger]

rock/stone lion or sek see kuen, also known as ying jow sup jee/ dai sup jee.

dan ging- is a nice form. it has a drunken step in it apparently, but a good fighting form.

poisenous snake spits out the tounge or venom?
:D

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[PotJunkie]

I train under master Chau in Cabramatta. I started in the middle of last year.
Where abouts do you teach?

[fiercest tiger]

i teach in the western suburbs, i know your sifu chau fu! he has been a close friend to yau kung mun for many years. his sons came and learnt under me sifu before he came over from vietnam. we are brothers :D

i am also a gppd friend of sifu troung of wah nam, chau fu's old students. how is your sifu these days? did they do lion dance this year for the new year festival?


what form you up to? say man lin wan, dan ging, sek see?


talk to ya soon! ;)

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[mantis108]

Usually right after Jik Bo is taught and is nailed down by the student, Sek Si Sup Jee would be taught in Sigung Cheung Lai Chun's HK curriculum. My Sifu was from Mainland China he taught them in that order as well. So I suspect that it would be the same in Sigung lineage regardless of location. Sek Si Sup Jee is the form from Sigung's first Sifu Lum Sek, who taught the Laumen Pai(vagabond Style) kung Fu. The form itself is call Sup Jee, which is a cross patern that is to deal with multiple attacks on the street. It has variety of techniques that is street ready. There are Techniques such as claws, eblows, groin kicks, etc... and concepts like deceitful retreats yet they are follow by returning strike and Ramming to open door. These are things that would be used by a vagabond on the street. To teach a novice in street fighting that is adequate. For lack of a better description it is crude but effective. The addition, or modification if you will, is the Tun To Fao Chum. It is nick named Sek Si to commemorate Sifu Lum Sek, not Stone lion. This show Sigung's character that he would not hide where his Kung Fu came from.

Dan Ging (I hope I am on the right page here) come from Lung Ying? I would not contest to that theory given that quite a bit of material in the system are from other sources. I do know that the move which FT describe (we might not be talking about the same thing here) is not a drunken step. I am sorry but there is no drunken step in Bak Mei. Romanticize it any which way you want but Bak Mei is never a drunken style. If we are talking the same move, that hop/leap/jump/whatever is a anti-grappling takedown move. You sort of move to the side and bring up the knee which is a knee to his face. The kind of side stepping is to avoid being takedown right on your back, plus add the umph to the knee strike. Worst come to worst, you might fall to the side but not flat on your back. That way, you may be able (if you are on the ground) to have (to borrow the volcab.) side control. The following strike is an attack to the temples of your opponent, not to strike the leg, waist, or torso. You will never get your guy that way! Try those attacks, you will hand your a$$ to him.

Anyway, enough mouth runnig from my part. I just hope that fact and techn's. should remain clear .

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[fiercest tiger]

i dont practise dan ging, but i know a bak mei sifu here and he told me about a drunken step/footwork that is in the form. i have seen the form many times, but we dont practise dan ging. there is a drunken kuen in bak mei in guangzhou by the way i have it on video. i have heard that story about sek see kuen thanks for that.

have you ever seen the bak mei turtle form??? :D

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[kull]

Original hand sets of baak mei.

straight step
9 step push
18 hands
fierce tiger

But why do we say this?

From what it seem to me when ppl. say "original" and the other set mixed in, it is like the other set is still the same as original li ga, dragon, and shek style.

After sigong CLC learned bai mei early on in china most of these other style sets he used were changed fundamentally, to bak mei principles of combat and power generation. Some techniques still look same, but as time went by the great master further and further changed the fundamentals of the set to a point where it does not even look like dragon, li ga or shek style.

Well...actually dragon on initial apperance still look somewhat similar to bak mei. In training it is different.

We don't say that "Chen Heung" founder of Tsai Li Fo; that original set from Li ga was so and so...and original set from monk Chai Foo was so and so.... It is b/c Chen Heung changed the not only techniques but also the priciples of the different styles he learned. This is same with the great master CLC.

[CannonFist]

I understand that one of CLC teachers was surnamed Li. So it means that CLC learnt some Li Gar. However is this Li Gar the same as the Li Gar of the well known 5 southern Chinese styles of Hung, Mok, Choy, Li, Lau.

[CannonFist]

Tan Ging means singular force. I was told that Tan Ging is a form from the Vietnam lineage. However I have also heard that a sifu in HK who learnt from CLC also teaches it.

[CannonFist]

I don't think Tan Ging has a drunken step. It might be sort of similar to the drunken steps in Hung Gar's Tiger Crane set in appearance. However it is not executed with the 'drunken' characteristics of apparently stumbling, swaying.

[fiercest tiger]

ill ask for you about darn ging! i could be wrong the drunken part is not like a drunken kung fu.
it is a vietnamese pak mei form as well as the turtle form, which has characteristics of southern mantis. i think say man lin wan!

ill get back on here later and give you a definite answer.
:rolleyes:

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[CannonFist]

I have heard of the turtle form which was supposedly created by one of the masters of Pak Mei in Vietnam, named Lu Ping Woon.

My Pak Mei is also from the Vietnam lineage, however we don't have the turtle form as my lineage is from Yip Kwok Leung (aka "Tai Chek Kum") who is a kung fu brother of Lu Ping Woon.

And yes, we do have the Say Mah Lin Wan (4 horse continuous) form. Its a very short form which is sort of like Sup Ji but its emphasis is on the lam dar techniques.

[Ming Fai]

The founder of Bak Mei Pai, master Cheung Lai-Chuen was born in 1888 as a member of the Hakka community. The Hakka were originally Han-Chinese citizens who lived in Central China, but during the 9th century (civil war of the Tang dynasty) they fled to Southern China. The Southerners called them the Hakka (Guest People). The Hakka practiced forms of martial arts which is totally different from other Chinese styles.

Cheung Lai-Chuen started his martial arts training with Lam Hap, who taught the Dongkong Kuen style (East River Boxing) of Hakka martial arts. Lam Hap's nephew, Lam Yiu-Kwai later became the founder of the Dragon system. After Cheung completed his training at the Lam Family, he went to the Kwonghao Temple to become the disciple of the Buddhist priest Tzok Faat-Wan. Master Tzok taught Chueng Lai-Chuen the techniques which was handed down by the priest Bak Mei.

Bak Mei Curriculum consists the following forms:

Beginner
1. Tzik Bo Kuen (Straight Step Fist)
2. Siu Sap Tzi (Small Ten Character)
3. Shek Si Sap Tzi Kuen (Ten Character Fist)
4. Siu Sam Moon (Small Three Doors)
5. Sam Moon Kiu (THree Door Bridge)
6. Yingzhao Lien Kiu (Eagle claw INterlinking bridge)
7. Tzadsapyi Deisaat Kuen (72 Star Boxing)
8. Bak LOng Kuen (White Dragon Fist)

Intermediate
1. Sam Moon Baat Gua (Three Door Eight Trigram)
2. Sai Moon Baat Gua (Four Door Eight TRigram)
3. Dan Ging (Single Power)
4. Seung Ging (Double Power)

Advanced
1. Gao Bo Tui (Nine Step Pushing)
2. Sap Baat Mo Kiu (Eighteen Rubbing Bridge)
3. Mang Fu Ha San (Fierce Tiger Departs Mountain)
4. Mang Fu Tzud Lam (Fierce Tiger Leaves Forest)
5. Ng Hang Mo (Five Elemental Rubbing)

I think it is a misconception that Cheung Lai-Chuen learned a so-called Laumanpai (Wanderer's Style). There are no records of this style as a legitimate form of kungfu for as far as I know. I believe it refers to the Hakka style because the Hakka used to be wanderers. Today, the styles of Bak Mei, Dragon and Southern Mantis are considered the three main schools of Hakka Martial Arts.

The oldest fist forms of Hakka have no salutations, this according to ancient Hakka tradition.

[Olaf]

3. Mang Fu Ha San (Fierce Tiger Departs Mountain)??? I have never heard of this one. What is it's purpose?

[MoQ]

everybody's got a different story that they are completely invested in... I wonder how close the sources are, or how many times removed is the experience?

The fact is, none of us know d*ck about these goings on.

I think most accept that CLC learned from Juk Fat Won of the Kwong Wei Taoist temple where the Bak Mei monk resided and had left 5 forms. CLC learned these and filled out the material with other stuff(why i don't know)...
From here, the story explodes into all manner of songs, poems, hakka connections and attributes. But Bak Mei was not Hakka before CLC.
Every tangent has its own story and even those learning from people who knew CLC have wildly varying accounts. This in itself is curious...

We can all probably agree that listing form names this way is unnecessary. I don't believe that anyone knowing and valuing this information in the way it needs to be would just list the forms names so crassly. I guess I would like it if this info weren't available to just anyone... :(

[fiercest tiger]

if the hakka style never had a salutation, then why know? have you seen these other forms you have mentioned? do you study bak mei kung fu?

moq has a good point, there seems to be different stories about the bak mei history. all i know is that clc added to what he learnt with his previous styles and then called himself grandmaster of bak mei. that is all documented in the 9 step push book. i was told that clc also learnt at jook lum temple at one stage- so the hakka relationship could be from here as well.

we now have 19 hand forms that ming fai has mentioned, clc was taught....do any of you guys and gals have these extra forms that where mention ? if so can you tell us about them, explain alittle about the way they move. what perpose where they developed for etc.

if they are still around that is great!! there are more forms that i would like to see. some forms are similar to other forms through out the style. just in different combo's!


:D

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[Kung Lek]

Bok=white

Bak=northern

Pak=white

Pa=eight

Bok Mei or Pak Mei =white eyebrow

Bak Mei= Northern eyebrow!!!

splitting hairs I know, let the admonishments begin!! hahahahaha.

Kung Lek

[fiercest tiger]

thanks for the correction-but ill spell it how i want to.

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com :p

[This message was edited by fiercest tiger on 02-02-01 at 02:17 PM.]

[WongFeHung]

Lek, first of all, there is no correct way to spell in roman letters the phonetic pronuonciation of a chinese ideograph. Jim Lacy once wrote in some magazine in rebuttal of someone's letter,"he incorrectly spelled Mew Hing as Miu Hihn, which simply shows his ignorance" WHAT!!??how absurd
Okay, here's a Bak Mei P'ai (excuse the spelling) story I heard: CLC learned from Lam Yue Quai and possibly from Juk Fat Wan, but he created the name Bak Mei P'ai,and before that it was referred to as simply Ngor Mei P'ai, but...also there's this one, He called it Bak Mei to separate himself from Loong Ying, changed the footwork and altered the sets and formed a new "forbidden" style, and creating the whole Bak Mei=traitor story to give the system a facinating lineage. BUT..there's also the possibility that Lam Yue Quai changed the name to Loong Ying to separate from Bak Mei P'ai, so as not to be associated with a "traitor's style" hmmmmm, who knows? I still think Yim Wing Chun was actually Fong Wing Chun who was actually Fong Chinyang, from Wing Chun county(hence, Fong Wing-Chun) who studied Fukien White Crane, which is referred to as Wing Chun White Crane. Hmmmm?so did Davey Crockett really 'shot him a bar when he was only three"? (probably a gun accident with the family pet-y'know-George Washington is exalted for chopping down his father's cherry tree(weird kid-probably add)and when he got caught, admitted his guilt)