kung fu vs boxing

[fiercest tiger]

have any of you seen the vcd you can buy with kung fu vs boxing? the chinese kung fu guys are more thai style and hardly use a kung fu technique, and when they think they are going to be punched they tackle the boxers legs.

i think that the fights where pretty bad and the fighters where even worst! :o

some boxers won but i think the kung fu guys won more out of the 5-6 fights on the vcd.

what are your view on boxing vs kung fu, do you think that kung fu guys should equal a boxer in the hands and easily beat them in the legs?

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[Shaolin Temple]

What's the difference between Traditional Chinese Martial Arts and boxing or Kick-boxing?

Kick-boxing is a sport. It's all about scoring points in competition 'fighting' where there are a clear set of rules, gloves, pads and a referee to control things. Traditional Shaolin training is not concerned with competitions of this nature. The techniques as taught are given to deal with real life situations where there are no rules and no referee to step in and save your life! Traditional techniques were developed to save lives under the most extreme circumstances - no really conclusive test is possible between students of traditional Shaolin, unless they choose to get involved in a all-out, real fight since Shaolin techniques are inherently dangerous and do not lend themselves to control measures.

One Shaolin Master recently wrote: "Shaolin in its orthodox form, is not a game to be played for
the entertainment of an audience or the whims of sports-minded exponents. Although there have
been competitions between Shaolin experts, none of these have proven satisfactory to orthodox
practitioners."

True and traditional kung fu schools teach you skills, techniques and strengthening exercises where you can stand the beating and most important of all, attack with such controlled force and power that the opponent cannot stand more than 3 hits.

Have you seen Shaolin Monks fight. You can kick them in the nuts and break bricks and metallic rods over their heads and they walk away without injury. I have kicked some fellow disciples their in training and they feel no pain.

Keep looking.

Amitabha

[fiercest tiger]

i do understand the difference between real life fighting and ring fighting, but are you telling me that shaolin kung fu is no good in the ring. with gloves on or off, rules or no rules you should be able to adapt to any encounter. kung fu has much hand work and should beat these boxers with other techniques rather than jabs, straight hooks and uppercuts if you know what i mean. :D

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[HuangKaiVun]

fiercest tiger, you can be only as good as the rules allow you to be.

Remember that in life-and-death fighting, there are no rules.

[wckf]

Kungfu is about change as in continuous changing flow of yin and yang. So shouldn't we as kunfu people be able to adapt to "ring" and "gloves".
How about in the street when we're in jeans, boots and heavy winter coats ? Will we have the luxury of not adapting to our environment.

Let not make excuses. We can only make our art better by examing our art closer.

[fiercest tiger]

thats exactly what i was trying to say!

we all should be able to adapt... :D

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

[iblis73]

Kungfu (we all agree thats not the correct translation for what we do?) is more aptly called chuan fa,wushu,or chinese boxing. Kungfu is chinese boxing! We even have our full contact tournaments-namely san da (san shou),shuai jiao (ahhh-grappling, the other half of the equation!) and kuoshu (which until the early 90s was a bloody spectacle.)
Sadly most Chinese boxing exponents don't spar or don't spar full contact. They also spend way to much time on forms and such. They don't spend their time hitting things-dummies,wall bags,heavy bags, each other.

[Lucky Red]

first of all i dont think that it is possible
to compare two Styles and come to a Conclusion
of what is best beacuse nearly all sTyles have the
same Potential to be great or bad


second i want to say that i Belive that
Training is the most Important Thing without
proper Trainning you can have a million of techniques but they will only work against
you Physical Condition is important atleast
as far as i know to some Degree but you also
need to put alot of effort in each Application
technique you learn i can say that i know 15
Kicks but i cannot make 15 kicks Work in a fight
only 3 but i dont need anymore

i think that Boxing is something that should
not be taken as a joke a good Boxer knows pain
and hits Hard and fast that is a Dangerous
combination of course a good Kung fu Practioner
also knows this but many times the Boxer is
Tougher and the Kung fu has alot of techniques
but sadly he has forgot to Train in any of them
i have great Respect for Western Boxing beacause
the training Methods are really great and no i dont Trained in boxing

i think it comes down to the Practioners if he has
a fighting Spirit

i am Going to fight a Boxer in approximatly 4 weeks he just need to get his Thumb Outta his ass
and get his gloves and then i will Show him the Power of Hung gar Kung fu i will Beat Him

a last word Boxing is cool But

KUNG FU RULES SUPREME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


the Hardest Fight is the the one With yourself

[mantis108]

Sorry, I practice Kung Fu and it is NOT WuShu. Kung Fu is Kung Fu and WuShu is WuShu. I DO NOT dance around all day in gymnastic moves, period! It is those scholars in mainland China who have never practiced Kung Fu and never understood the difference that made the claim. To me that is uneducated generalization! Kung Fu is referred to most Shaolin traditional martial arts. WuShu is just about any martial arts. To say Kung Fu is WuShu is to forget history and origin of Kung Fu. It should not be accepted. I am not a fan of Bruce Lee but one thing I always respect him for is that he would say "I am a Kung Fu man!"

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[Kung Lek]

Well... I have practiced both.

Boxing is a great art rules or not, the same goes for Kung Fu.

Kung Fu has a greater variety of techniques and a larger scope in fighting abilty.

Boxing is mostly hands, taking hits and some quick footwork.

I think that if you were to take a boxer of 5 years and a kung Fu man of 5 years (both having good absorption and retention and ability to apply their respective arts) and put them in a square circle and allowed them to use their arts fully that the KF man would be at a definite advantage.

Boxing although it can be brutal and the hitting is fast and hard just doesn't have the defenses against trapped arms, low kicks, sweeps, takedowns and all the other stuff that the Kung Fu guy would have learned. (never mind the brutal stuff of KF like eyepokes, groin strikes et al)

peace

Kung Lek

[iblis73]

Folks, Gongfu is wush! Kung fu translation=skill in effort or hard work. Wushu=war arts. More aptly=wu kung, skill or concentrated effort in combat arts. Chuan fa=fist way, or chinese boxing. Kuoshu is a politically charged term from Taiwan.
To not know the real meaning of the term kung fu is illiterate. The only reason people associate kung fu with shoalin or fighting is because of us big bad round eyes and our inability to understand another language. I am not a Chinese linguist or historian, but I know one who I have used for information.

[Kung Lek]

iblis-
semantics!

Most people in the west and the east have come to know the term Kung Fu to mean Traditional chinese martial arts.

you are correct in your literal meanings, but the line of contention is drawn between traditional stylists and those who perform contemporary wu shu.

This is because much of contemporary wu shu with it,s hyperextended limbs and prolonged stance holding is viewed as a performance art and is not considered street viable.

sure, a wu shu player can have traditional skills, but the main focus of cws is performance and flash. there is not a lot of readily usable martial application in the regimens.

The contemporary wu shu stylists are very fit and have terrific athletic ability, but without traditional fight training, performing during a street fight isn't going to help defend oneself.

peace

Kung Lek

[Wah Ren Jie]

IMHO Kung Fu has an advantage over boxing. Kunf fu is not a combat sport so you must train it to protect your entire body. Boxing's legal targets are only the front of the head and torso, so it depends on the practitioner's natural talent and ability to successfully adapt it to a non-sporting situation. But hand technique for hand technique, boxing can match any art. Also, as Kung Fu people, we have an advantage over western boxing because we have all been exposed to it all of our lives. We have a good idea of the way it works, while many of kung fu's methods of attack and defense should be very unfamiliar to a pure western boxer. Peace.

"I'll kick you square in the nuts!!!" -Eric Cartman

[Brad]

Honestly, I see just as many "traditionalists" who don't train to fight in a realistic manner as contemp. wushu people. It's the coach not the art. Contemporary wushu can be taught to be used for fighting just as well as any "traditional" art out there. GLW has explained this very well(much better than I can) many times in other posts. Some predjuduces just take longer to get rid of I guess. Traditional fighting skills is a part of contemporary which can not be removed. If you take this aspect out then you are not doing wushu. I feel you have to know as much as you possibly can about what the movements are used for and how to use them in order to give the best performance possible.

[mantis108]

My apologies, folks, for the outburst. It is not a good reception to a new member. First off, thank you Kung Lek, you articulate part of my point. I am passionate about not letting Kung Fu mix up with WuShu. On the Kung Fu forum, Kung Fu is under attack already, now another "scholar" claim again. Sorry, please check all my posts. I have been extremely clear on every board, even on Cyberkwoon, that Kung Fu is more than a sport. WuShu is just a sport if not a dance. They have different focuses - enlightenment (Kung Fu) Vs entertainment (WuShu). Talking the path and walking the path is very different thing. Kung Fu is beyond acadamic pursuits. BTW, I am Chinese from Hong Kong. I read and write Chinese (the full Characters as in the old days and in use in Taiwan)as well. At no time have I or would I confuse those terms. It's okay to term it according to your own believes, but please do not assume everyone would agree on the ultimate meaning of things.

Again my sincere apology for the outburst.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[Brad]

mantis108,

I will probably never agree with you and will most likely allways use the terms kungfu and wushu interchangably for the rest of my life. I know I can use my mainland china originated wushu to defend myself and all the history about origins etc. is never going to change that fact. I also don't understand your point aboutYou argue a lot about history, focus, what so & so is good for. Isn't that what scholars do?

About boxing vs. kungfu,

In a pure punching match a good boxer is going to win almost everytime because that's about all they do. Once you add in kicking or grabing the advantage will go towards the kungfu guy. On the average though, I think there are more well trained western boxers than kungfu artists, in the US at least.

[mantis108]

Brad,

I hear you, and I respect what you are saying. If WuShu does give you what you needed, self defense wise, more power to you. Ironically, most of my Sigungs and Sifus are from mainland China. Make no mistake though, they would tell you they do Kung Fu not WuShu. We are here to present a voice, we don't have to agree on anything. In the case of my Sigung in Tai Chi Praying Mantis, when ask about the scars, which he received during his many physical confrontations, he would tell you that it is Kung Fu that saved him. Kung Fu, the merit of hard work, saved him from being perrished. He learned a skill Geh Gik(WuShu as you would term it) but it is the intimate knowledge (Kung Fu) that saved him. It is the Kung Fu which I strive for. That's why I caution the difference.

As for the scholar part, I am aganist the attitude that those learned people without going into studying the whole nature of the subject and making authority statements that everybody is a fool but they KNOW it all which include actually practice in it. That is neither prudent nor scholarly. But then again, there is an Chinese adage "Everybody is intoxicated yet I alone is sober; everybody is sober yet I am intoxicated." To each their own.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[Whambo]

Boxing is the development of certain skills for sport, which coincidentally work well on the street as well. I forget the boxer Mike Tyson got in a street fight with, but keep this in mind it took 12 rounds to go to a judges decision in the ring, and 3 seconds to knock him out in the street. Boxing is crosstrained with other styles if you want to be a good fighter.

[joedoe]

From what I understand, kung fu & wushu do mean the same thing in essence, but in modern usage there is a distinction. To me (and many other martial artists I have spoken to), wushu usually implies the flowery dance-like movements that wushu practioners demonstrate. Kung fu means the more traditional fighting arts (not to say wushu has no tradition :)).

Anyway, back to the original question, I consider boxing to be a martial art. It may have different principles to, and be more limited in its repertoire of techniques than Asian martial arts, but it is an art nonetheless. I have nothing but the utmost respect for boxers.

But ultimately, it comes down to the practitioner. You don't have to practice any martial art to be a good fighter.

[BIU JI]

Could somebody tell a lttle history of Wushu, like when it was created where , why etc?Theres a view it was created to apease the masses as practising kung fu is illegal in china but its a part of the culture so made to replace the fighting arts.
Is it a political art?

[Kung Lek]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Could somebody tell a lttle history of Wushu, like when it was created where , why etc?Theres a view it was created to apease the masses as practising kung fu is illegal in china but its a part of the culture so made to replace the fighting arts.
Is it a political art? [/quote]

can of worms! can of worms! hahaha.

imho, you are definitely on to something here.
Here is what I know about it (contemporary wu shu of the prc)
Even before the cultural revolution at the time of communist power rising in China, Martial practice by the common folk was branded Illegal and was punishible by imprisonment and even death.

For one to have martial superiority over another (common man) was viewed as a bad thing and many masters of various systems left the country, went into hiding and in fact, some of them entered the red army and took their skill with them.
Military hand to hand combat extrapolated from ancient Kung Fu was accepted, but man in teh street practice of genuine martial arts was NOT.

in 1911-12, the Kuo Ming Tang (Chinese Nationalist Party) under the command of the leader Sun Yat Sen started the non-communist china in Taiwan and there are still arguments about this today. But a lot of Kung Fu was taken there also.

Hong Kong(british) and Macao(portugese) were also havens for traditional Martial arts as well as many other countries where monks had been dispersing as well as all sorts of other masters for years, even decades and in some cases centuries before hand.

This non-acceptance of martial practice amongst the people of mainland china forced those masters who stayed to train in hiding or to join the army.

between 1928 and 1935 because of the cultural ingranation of martial arts was too strong to withold these practices from the people so the prc decided to take control of it somehow.
tournaments were held to determine who had the best ma and it was determined from these men who would form the founding body for the codification of martial arts in china.

The Wu Shu Manuak of all known arts in china was created during this time and as well has been added to since.

still, masters practiced in secret, more kung fu masters left, some took there skill into teh armed forces (again) and so on. And still public practice of martial arts by the common folk was frowned upon.

with the rise to power of Mao Tze Tung in the late forties and fifties, contemporary wu shu routines were created for consumption by the public. these were built upon until the 1970's when there was a decision made to codify and systematize these wu shu routines to use as a vehicle of instillation of pride and nationhood. However, martial application was stripped from much of the material so it would be deemed acceptable as a national art.

after the nineteen seventies, ping pong was replaced as the national sport by wu shu and the Kuo Sho (national arts) federation was established and the routines were standardized into what is now contemporary wu shu of the peoples republic of china.

The true Kung Fu styles in the meantime had traveled an utterly different path and instead evolved into the myriad of village systems of kung fu as well as major family systems that were kept alive in regions outside of mainland china.

Some of these arts had wu shu routines built from them and if you see them you will see the marked difference in the way the form is practiced, power is issued and expression is issued.

wu shu based on Hung style looks nothing like Traditional Hung Kuen and the same is true of most wu shu that is drawn from old systems that were kept alive elsewhere.

A very popular style of wu shu is based almost entirely on Northern systems and draws heavily from the northern style created by the late Mater Kyu Yu Cheong.
KYC North Shaolin is really quite flashy and could likely win some forms competitions at a wu shu tournament, the difference is that KYC North Shaolin is martially applicable in each and every motion whereas the wu shu based upon it is not by far.

so, in the rest of the world, this is even more exhascerbating(sp?) because of simply not knowing what is what until one has practiced and learned a system.
Many contemporary wu shu stylists in the west think they are doing the real thing and will offer all sorts of arguments about why's and wheretofores, about the wu shu they do.
On the other side of the table are the traditional martial artists in the west who adamantly believe that wu shu is in no way shape or form related to the actual real thing that is traditional kung fu training.

in some ways (on a very shallow level) contemporary wu shu is related. On a level of principal and training methodology they are not related.

some have bridged the two and will practice both.
or fighting knowledge and self improvement and health and all the other good stuff, they will practice a full course of Kung Fu including conditioning exercises, health practices, Chi Kung and the rest that goes with trad training. But for performing in forms tournaments should they enjoy doing it, well, contemporary wu shu is gonna win those form because its got the needed flash to entertain the audience.

so, you ask, is it a political art?(cws) Yes it is very much so a political art, it is the national art of China in the here and now.

peace

Kung Lek

[Kenji]

I think everyone here has strayed abit from the topic thread which is an opinion on the kungfu vs boxing matches that happenned a while ago. I have watched it and here's my review.

Most of it is crap. The chinese fighters' skills imho are not very high. I am pretty sure the Chinese fighters are not high level san shou fighters (I hope so anyway). One of the american even won his match by simply dropping down to one of his knees everytime his chinese opponent attempted a throw. The number of times that anti-throw technique work made me to believe these chinese guys' skills are at best intermediate.

Now to the issue developing here. Wushu/ kungfu technically refer to the same thing, ie. chinese martial arts. Technically wushu is the more correct term but different dialects in China tend to have different ways of calling the same things. Kungfu is very cantonese term that has been made popular in the west and even in China today to some extent. There are many different ways to refer to chinese martial arts. eg. quan fa, wu kung, wushu, kungfu, etc.

Now as we all know, classification of chinese martial arts are broadly categorised into four areas = punch (da), kick(di), throw(shuai), joint locks(qin na). Now sanda/ sanshou is to enable kungfu fighters to compete in a full contact arena using the techniques of the first three categories. I assume maybe qin na is too dangerous to be used and not as effective with gloves on. Often sanda players would learn western boxing for their hand techniques or to complement their existing skills as it is faster to learn and easier to adapt in the sanda arena. However, according to my teacher despite the boxing skills being learnt, the majority of sanda players' hand techniques are still bad compared to boxers. Most excel in kicking and throwing which happen to also score the most points.

[apeters28]

First off I would like to say that you don't know what you're talking about mantis108, Kung Fu is not a term to simply describe martial arts, it's a term to describe something that takes time and effort. Kung Fu can refer to a chef, a musician, or any athlete. Wushu is what we think of as Kung Fu. It is a term that is still very broad, but it is more specific that Kung Fu. Wushu is not necessarily a term to describe "dancing around" but it is a term to describe numberous Chinese fighting styles.

[MoQ]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> First off I would like to say that you don't know what you're talking about mantis108 [/quote]

HAHA you're new here aren't ya???

yes, I mean the planet, are you another white dude with a book tellin' a Chinese person what Chinese terminology REALLY means?

What the terms CAN refer to is not the issue...

Whambo- Boxing is a sport. Tyson broke his hand on his neighbors head and did NOT score a KO. Boxing is a sport.

[mantis108]

I suggest a few things before going into the Kung Fu WuShu arguement.

1) Please reread what Kung Lek said

2) Please reread What MoQ said

3) Please reread What I have said.

4) Please think before you act.

5) Please do not echo a text book.

If you really want to enlighten me, please show some teeth such as your lineage(s), etc... If your interest is only what the terms literally means, then you are right and you KNOW it ALL. Perhaps you should try the WuShu forum instead since Kung Fu isn't about martial arts.

6) Please find yourself a WuShu Forum.

As for myself, this is what I needed to do

1) sorry folks, I am distracting the thread again

2) :rolleyes: :eek:

3) *SIGH*

4) "I am so bad, I make medicine sick." Muhammad Ali. Thats the closest I can get to the subject of Boxing. :D

5) Shut myself up.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

[cricri]

for me, fighting is the only way to know if one is good in kung fu or not. so boxing is a kind of kung fu. The boxer may have less technics due to the gloves or whatever, but they do very well their technics. In kung fu, people may have their own's special, but they do usually not have a lot of special. mastering one technics is also kung fu. So in a fight the best is the one who has a better kung fu.

in other hand, the boxer is used to fight. Their mind is prepared to fight hard. I am not sure that all kung fu practitionner are well prepared to fight.

Last reflexion, there were a lot of kung fu practitionner who fighted boxer. And I did not feel that in their mind they is a difference between them and the boxer. They respect their opponents.

in conclusion, boxing is a good way to know what is a fight. A kung fu practitionner should try it to understand what is a fight. But there is a difference between fighting and the art of fighting. This is only my point of vue on this thread.

:)

[Sagacious Monk]

i'm chinese myself. I have to agree with apeters28
Kung fu doesnt have to represent martial arts. But wu shu does. Wu shu is much meaning martial arts.
I'm saying this becoz i can say i put my kung fu in reading or cooking or whatever. Is meaning putting effort in your work. Therefore Kung fu mean putting effort in what you are doing. That why we need to say Da kung fu. Da mean hitting.

Bull crap ,do not forget kungfu has many styles,some are proven(like northern praying mantis)and you have other crap flowery style .And just because one lousy kungfu fighter lost does not mean all kungfu,maybe he was practising the southern kungfu style which is very restictive in mobility and flexibility ,try putting a northern praying mantis fighter in then will you see a different tune.

kelvein chan

[UnknownAgent]

Maybe we are looking at it all wrong... What if you took a bad ass western boxer (light weight or middle weight) and build kung fu principles of his boxing foundation, what do you think the result would be?

[tnwingtsun]

Da,Dar,as in hitting??,lop Dar,tan dar,bong dar,gwat dar,ect.ect.,my best friend was a golden gloves boxer,still has hands like lighting,he was mortified when I took him to a Wing Tsun class,my teacher took him with just hands,no elbows,kicks,take downs,just hands,much slower hands,structure,position all fall into the picture.Wing Tsun Kiszer of Kung Fu Kernspect of Germany said in his book "On Single Combat"(great book btw)"I'm already there,said the turtle to the hare",my WT teacher said "smother the basterd,I don't care if he bobs,weaves,Ali shuffles,my hands will find him,take the sob's head off and his nuts will follow,fight like a Wolverine on crack",Five Animales of Shaolin??,that one would gets my vote for the 6th,course they didn't have crack at the shaolin temple,yes,I think its sad when you see these "Kung Fu","Wu-shu",whatever,fighters using western boxing moves when the southern chinese arts are full of hand fighting concepts that are more than a match for the western boxer,IMHO

[meltdawn]

This is turning into a boxing match itself!

Round Four: who else will come out of the blue corner against Mantis108 in the red?

KUNG FU VS BOXING

One need only to look at the posts in the new kung fu health & exercise forum (whatever it's called) to see how many of the "kung fu practitioners" who post here have NO idea about the conditioning of the hands, forearms, etc. Many train power generation, but still lack strength. MoQ mentioned Mikie broke his hand; if that can happen to him, what can happen to the guy straight out of kung fu class?

BEGINNER
Let's put this at under a year of training. In no way do I denegrate kung fu. Boxing is just meant to be quickly effective no matter what school teaches it, just like most karate and TKD. Yeah, go ahead and sound off, but if you put two NOVICES at the same duration of training in the ring, the boxer will win. He already knows how to hit, that's the whole (and only) point of the sport.

INTERMEDIATE
Let's put these guys in the three year period. So now the boxer has developed sufficient power in his strikes, decent footwork, and awesome endurance. The kung fu guy has a deeper knowledge of his bag of tricks, good overall conditioning and superior control of his body (this is a generalization based upon an open northern/southern kung fu school). Depending upong the sparring element of the kung fu guy's training, he might lack the ability to take a hit. Depending upon the boxer's speed, he might not escape a leg shot/take down. I think the differences in both training strategies begin to become strengths or weaknesses at this stage.

ADVANCED
Don't think we'll ever really see proof, because here is where the boxers go into the limelight and the masters go into their caves (or strip malls ;) ). The really big heavy weights are in a league by themselves. But if you put middleweights on down against advanced kung fu practitioners who spar, hands down SOUTHERN kung fu wins and wins quick.

FT, if you were to preface your question with "BAK MEI" or "LUNG YING" Kung fu vs. Boxing... no one here would come out in favor of boxing. :)

"Waiting is bad." - Musashi

[Anarcho]

"in 1911-12, the Kuo Ming Tang (Chinese Nationalist Party) under the command of the leader Sun Yat Sen started the non-communist china in Taiwan and there are still arguments about this today. But a lot of Kung Fu was taken there also."

Not sure I understand this, but are you saying the Guomindang fled mainland China in 1912? How did they help bring about the Nationalist government in the late twenties, then?

"between 1928 and 1935 because of the cultural ingranation of martial arts was too strong to withold these practices from the people so the prc decided to take control of it somehow.
tournaments were held to determine who had the best ma and it was determined from these men who would form the founding body for the codification of martial arts in china."

If by the "prc" you mean the People's Republic of China, that wasn't established until after the Second World War (1945). The Nationalist government was in power during this time, wasn't it?

What's going on here? Am I missing something, or have I stumbled into an alternate universe?

[Kung Lek]

In 1912, october 11th, the republic of Taiwan was established as seperate entity from mainland china by the Kwo Min Tang under the leader ship of Sun Yat Sen.

The Nationalist party did not have control of mainland china at this time and there was more people favouring the establishment of communism in china as the last emperor of the chings fell.

The ching dynasty ended with the establishment of the communist government. The nationalists moved to Taiwan. There was No government that was firmly and undeniably in a complete seat of power in the interim time.
In fact, much of China's territories where not governed at all! At least not by a cohesive and universal type of government that we see today.

peace

Kung Lek