Bagua Quan vs. Tong Long Quan

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

I just read an article today in Journal of Asian Martial Arts. It's in the latest issue. The article was about the history of Praying Mantis, specifically Mei Hua style. In this article there was a reference made to Gong Baotien and how a mantis practitioner named Jiang Hualong. The story say Jiang beat Gong in a challenge match. Now I've heard of this story before but with a completely different ending. Of course in the story I heard Gong was actually the winner and was forced into hiding. In anycase, I just wanted to make some of my Bagua cousins, Count, aware of this so they can check it out for themselves. I'd like to hear any views or ideas anyone has on this. Oh, before anyone thinks I'm biased...I studied mantis too and love the style...so... :p

[NafAnal]

Y'know they probably just met up for tea and biscuits, perhaps some wadded beef or jellied eels, discussed their wives and kids, and parted good friends. None of this challenge match crap....

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

I tend to agree with you NafAnal. Sounds the most realistic. However, I just wanted to bring to everyone's attention another version I heard from the Mantis board... Here it is...

Posted by: Ilya Profatilov

This is a Bagua Quan (Zhang) version of the story:

It says that GM Jiang Hualong won a challenge match with Gong Baotian's older brother Gong Baoshan's disciple Gong Tuzi (BTW all Gongs were relatives and from the same Qinshan Cun Village of Mouping County, Shandong Province). Gong Tuzi also learned Bagua from Gong Baotian.

Gong Baoshan was an early disciple of Yin Fu (Dong Haichuan's disciple) and Gong Baotian was Gong Baoshan's younger brother. Gong Baotian prior to introduction to Yin Fu learned Bagua from his brother Gong Baoshan. Gong Baoshan had a great gongfu skills in Bagua Quan, so did his disciple Gong Tuzi.
The story goes that after GM Jiang Hualong won a fight with Gong Baoshan's disciple Gong Tuzi, Gong Tuzi went to Gong Baotian and asked him to fight Jiang Hualong in order to save face. Gong Baotian challenged Jiang Hualong but Jiang Hualong refused.

I hope he doesn't mind me posting it here....
Still quite interesting.

[Ray Pina]

Since I started Ba Gua, I'm 2 and 0 against Tong Long. ;)

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

EF,
Northern or Southern?

Oh, sorry about Friday, busy as hell with school work. See you tonight...

[Ray Pina]

Southern.

But is that really a mantis style? I never seen the mantis hook/claw in my study of the style -- but I have to admit my old teacher kind of did his own thing, even though studying under Mr. Chin and Gin Foon Mark. He's a bigger guy, lots of element blows and wierd angles, that was his thing.

Anyway, I remember reading that S. MAntis was actually another style that headed south to hide and took mantis as a name to hide under. I don't know. I never got around to ask about stuff like that. I have seen photos of Gin Foon Mark in that claw position.

The guys I fought were of the other breed. A combo of Hung Gar, Wc and S Mantis. I consider them S Mantis because that where they really got there fighting from. They are much more agressive then WC. More upright and tigher than Hung Gar. I used to trade too many blows with them. Sifu's shielding is incredible. Super technology. I still take too much force. Bad habit combined with young hardheadedness. I like to cover up and go right in. But the shielding surprises and jamms people, and then from there just used gung fu.

Anyway, dinner was nice. Met a few other S. Mantis people and now I really see what sifu says about health. This one Chinese guy had to be no more than 10 years older then myself yet he looked 10 years older then sifu. No lie. Gray hair, snakey skin.

I respect these guys as fighters. They are good. Agressive. But after the last run in I'm quite comfotable with my old training brothers. But I know I still can't beat my old sifu -- not that I want to, but I just know that's another guy out there that can take me out. I'm thinking a few more years.

I hope I can get there tonight. Its one of those days. Had an article thrown back at me to redo and I had a HUGE discussion with my girlfriend -- looking into changing my living arrangement.

Just silly life drama. But I'm hoping to be there. I saw a special on monks the otjer day and was thinking of you. We should catch dinner some time. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Peace

[count]

I like the verson He Jing Han posted at emptyflower. It's sounds similiar to the story I have heard and what I know about the way Gong fought.;)

[Stacey]

ba gua is better than most Tong Long. It reaches a higher level than the Tong Long that Wong Long invented.

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

I like it better too. Maybe, I'll copy/paste it here...

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

A mantis teacher in Taiwan Master Goa Daw-Shen told me this story but in a reverse ending, Gong won the fight, that's why Jian left Lai-Yan ( jian's home town ) and brought matis to other area, he even told me how they fight:
They agreed fight at noon, people was crowded that time, Jian arrived first, Gong didn't show up near noon, Jian yelled : "you cowerd Gong, dare not fight with me", " I'm coming " the word came from drowd accompanied with a man jumped in air ( Gong's Qing-gong was famoused ), his right palm pearced to Jian's face, it was so quick that Jian can only grabed Gong's arm sweeped to his back ( Qing-Na ), Gong followed the sweep,changed his step, go around to Jian's back ( you know Bagua ) and hited Jian's kidney with left palm, Jian had no time to change step but only use his elbow hitted back, Gong pushed Jian's elbow said:" I'm going " and disapeared in crowd; somebody said Jian won because Gong left first, but Jian left his home town then, somebody said it was Gong won.
It's only a story, but I feel interested that their movements fit to their arts and habits, I think it's not important who won or loss, but we can learn their maneer in the fight.

[Ray Pina]

How are you? How was your train ride? uneventful I hope.

I'd like to point out my two cents here as I said to you last night.

If a fight broke out last week between two people any of us know: guaranteed there will be two different stories from the people involved (even if there is a clear loser there WILL be a good reason why) and about a dozen other stories circulating from people who saw it.

[mantis108]

"A mantis teacher in Taiwan Master Goa Daw-Shen told me this story but in a reverse ending, Gong won the fight, that's why Jian left Lai-Yan ( jian's home town ) and brought matis to other area, he even told me how they fight:
They agreed fight at noon, people was crowded that time, Jian arrived first, Gong didn't show up near noon, Jian yelled : "you cowerd Gong, dare not fight with me", " I'm coming " the word came from drowd accompanied with a man jumped in air ( Gong's Qing-gong was famoused ), his right palm pearced to Jian's face, it was so quick that Jian can only grabed Gong's arm sweeped to his back ( Qing-Na ), Gong followed the sweep,changed his step, go around to Jian's back ( you know Bagua ) and hited Jian's kidney with left palm, Jian had no time to change step but only use his elbow hitted back, Gong pushed Jian's elbow said:" I'm going " and disapeared in crowd; somebody said Jian won because Gong left first, but Jian left his home town then, somebody said it was Gong won.
It's only a story, but I feel interested that their movements fit to their arts and habits, I think it's not important who won or loss, but we can learn their maneer in the fight."

Frankly, I do not wish to speculate and I do not want to get involve in the politics. Like you suggested it is a story perhaps has merits in learning something about the different arts.

I have a few questions rather than answers to this description of the fight.


[" I'm coming " the word came from drowd accompanied with a man jumped in air ( Gong's Qing-gong was famoused ),]

1) Is jump to advance an entry method of the Pagua? From this description there seems to be an element of surprise rather than 2 people squaring off. Now, I am not saying there is foul play here but there is a strong sense of one side having an advantage of sort. At high leve contest, any minute changes is crucial.

[ his right palm pearced to Jian's face, it was so quick that Jian can only grabed Gong's arm sweeped to his back ( Qing-Na ), ]

2) How is Jiang positioned? Which hand was he using to grab? There are more than 3 to 5 choices of Qin Na move can be executed with just the hands not to mention the use of the stances. This is quite a unique feature of Mantis footwork. The arms and legs are involved in trapping. If indeed Jiang was able to grab the incoming arm with the surprising speed, he too would have been ultra fast.

[Gong followed the sweep,changed his step, go around to Jian's back ( you know Bagua ) and hited Jian's kidney with left palm, Jian had no time to change step but only use his elbow hitted back, Gong pushed Jian's elbow said:" I'm going " and disapeared in crowd;]

3) Sorry, I can't see what sweep it could have been. Let's just follow along then. Granted Gong might be super fast and have wonderful footword. But personal experience tells me that Mantis is well aware of people going around infront or behind. This is in the basic training of Mantis Kung Fu. A master of Praying Mantis didn't take this into account and was not ready for it?

I don't mean to be disrespectful or anything. In this story, the logic seems to be "oh, I got you once, therefor I win the "match" (if we can call it that)" So if Ali ate lots of punches and then end up knocking a guy out, he's still a loser (and therefore not a master of boxing) because he got hit too many times yet he's the one standing at the end? Was the one hit declares the winner rule applied here? BTW, what was the rule of the contest or is it a no hold barr anything goes?

I don't doubt the skill of either side and I have great respect for those who told the story for they might have witnessed or heard from the most reliable source but this story sounds to me a romantic martial arts novel version of a real contest. Personally, there are just too many missing details to make a good judgement of how the fight went. I guess there were no real winner or loser in any fights.

Peace

Mantis108

[Ray Pina]

Ah, don't sweat it. We Ba Gua fight dirty. We have four arms and hidden kicks.;)