Bagua Quan vs. Tong Long Quan

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

I just read an article today in Journal of Asian Martial Arts. It's in the latest issue. The article was about the history of Praying Mantis, specifically Mei Hua style. In this article there was a reference made to Gong Baotien and how a mantis practitioner named Jiang Hualong. The story say Jiang beat Gong in a challenge match. Now I've heard of this story before but with a completely different ending. Of course in the story I heard Gong was actually the winner and was forced into hiding. I'd like to hear any views or ideas anyone has on this. Oh, before anyone thinks I'm biased...I studied mantis too and love the style...so...

:p

[NorthernMantis]

Cool, it sounds very interesting but can you explain who beat who?I don't have any knowledge of the mei hua lineage.
Thanks in adavance.:cool:

[Ilya Profatilov]

Hi Eight_Triagram_Boxer,


This is a Bagua Quan (Zhang) version of the story:

It says that GM Jiang Hualong won a challenge match with Gong Baotian's older brother Gong Baoshan's disciple Gong Tuzi (BTW all Gongs were relatives and from the same Qinshan Cun Village of Mouping County, Shandong Province). Gong Tuzi also learned Bagua from Gong Baotian.

Gong Baoshan was an early disciple of Yin Fu (Dong Haichuan's disciple) and Gong Baotian was Gong Baoshan's younger brother. Gong Baotian prior to introduction to Yin Fu learned Bagua from his brother Gong Baoshan. Gong Baoshan had a great gongfu skills in Bagua Quan, so did his disciple Gong Tuzi.
The story goes that after GM Jiang Hualong won a fight with Gong Baoshan's disciple Gong Tuzi, Gong Tuzi went to Gong Baotian and asked him to fight Jiang Hualong in order to save face. Gong Baotian challenged Jiang Hualong but Jiang Hualong refused.

Best regards,
Ilya Profatilov

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

Thanks Ilya,
I was too lazy to post the entire story. There were a few variations in that one that differed from mine. But like someone else said, they probably just met for tea and chatted. I really wouldn't doubt it.
In any case, where did you hear this story? Do you practice Gong style Bagua?

[drunkendragon]

Chiang Hua Long created the 8-Step Praying Mantis style by adding BaGua foot work.

[Ilya Profatilov]

Eight_Triagram_Boxer,


"In any case, where did you hear this story?"

It was told by Gong Baozhai, Gong Baotian's disciple and published in Taiwan.

"Do you practice Gong style Bagua?"

No, I don't. I practice Grand Ultimate Praying Mantis (Taiji Tanglang), Six Harmonies Praying Mantis (Liuhe Tanglang) and Plum Blossom Praying Mantis (Meihua Tanglang).


Best regards,
Ilya Profatilov

[EARTH DRAGON]

I heard that doctor george listjak is a master of plum blossom praying mantis is this true?
My cousins husband is one of his patients who is a karate instructor and he told him he was studying dircetly under your sifu.

[Ilya Profatilov]

EARTH DRAGON,

I believe one of my disciples has already answered all of your questions in his private e-mail to you a few months ago. If you have any more questions regarding George Lisjak's lineage please visit the genealogy link on www.prayingmantisboxing.com

Best regards,
Ilya Profatilov

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

Ilya,
I noticed you collect a lot of old pictures. I was curious if you have any of old Bagua practitioners, especially Gong Baotien. I've only seen two pictures of him. I know this isn't your specialty but I figure it couldn't hurt to ask.

[NorthernMantis]

Uhh so who's who again?

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

Gong Baotian=Bagua Quan
Jiang Hualong=Tang Lang Quan

[EARTH DRAGON]

Thanks Ilya, I checked out that site and saw the chart . I was just wondering if he has reached master level like he claims. I just found that hard to believe in such a short time, but he has been known to make some outrageous claims in the past. Thanks for your response. sincerly E.D

[Ilya Profatilov]

Eight_Triagram_Boxer,

"I noticed you collect a lot of old pictures. I was curious if you have any of old Bagua practitioners, especially Gong Baotien. I've only seen two pictures of him. I know this isn't your specialty but I figure it couldn't hurt to ask."

I have one picture of Gong Baotian. Please contact me privately.

Best regards,
Ilya Profatilov

[mantis108]

I posted this in respond to the same thread in the internal forum. I thought I should share this here as well.

The respond:

With all due respects...

"A mantis teacher in Taiwan Master Goa Daw-Shen told me this story but in a reverse ending, Gong won the fight, that's why Jian left Lai-Yan ( jian's home town ) and brought matis to other area, he even told me how they fight:
They agreed fight at noon, people was crowded that time, Jian arrived first, Gong didn't show up near noon, Jian yelled : "you cowerd Gong, dare not fight with me", " I'm coming " the word came from drowd accompanied with a man jumped in air ( Gong's Qing-gong was famoused ), his right palm pearced to Jian's face, it was so quick that Jian can only grabed Gong's arm sweeped to his back ( Qing-Na ), Gong followed the sweep,changed his step, go around to Jian's back ( you know Bagua ) and hited Jian's kidney with left palm, Jian had no time to change step but only use his elbow hitted back, Gong pushed Jian's elbow said:" I'm going " and disapeared in crowd; somebody said Jian won because Gong left first, but Jian left his home town then, somebody said it was Gong won.
It's only a story, but I feel interested that their movements fit to their arts and habits, I think it's not important who won or loss, but we can learn their maneer in the fight."

Mantis108: Frankly, I do not wish to speculate and I do not want to get involve in the politics. Like you suggested it is a story perhaps has merits in learning something about the different arts.

I have a few questions rather than answers to this description of the fight.


[" I'm coming " the word came from drowd accompanied with a man jumped in air ( Gong's Qing-gong was famoused ),]

Mantis108: 1) Is jump to advance an entry method of the Pagua? From this description there seems to be an element of surprise rather than 2 people squaring off. Now, I am not saying there is foul play here but there is a strong sense of one side having an advantage of sort. At high leve contest, any minute changes is crucial.

[ his right palm pearced to Jian's face, it was so quick that Jian can only grabed Gong's arm sweeped to his back ( Qing-Na ), ]

Mantis108: 2) How is Jiang positioned? Which hand was he using to grab? There are more than 3 to 5 choices of Qin Na move can be executed with just the hands not to mention the use of the stances. This is quite a unique feature of Mantis footwork. The arms and legs are involved in trapping. If indeed Jiang was able to grab the incoming arm with the surprising speed, he too would have been ultra fast.

[Gong followed the sweep,changed his step, go around to Jian's back ( you know Bagua ) and hited Jian's kidney with left palm, Jian had no time to change step but only use his elbow hitted back, Gong pushed Jian's elbow said:" I'm going " and disapeared in crowd;]

Mantis108: 3) Sorry, I can't see what sweep it could have been. Let's just follow along then. Granted Gong might be super fast and have wonderful footword. But personal experience tells me that Mantis is well aware of people going around infront or behind. This is in the basic training of Mantis Kung Fu. A master of Praying Mantis didn't take this into account and was not ready for it?

I don't mean to be disrespectful or anything. In this story, the logic seems to be "oh, I got you once, therefor I win the "match" (if we can call it that)" So if Ali ate lots of punches and then end up knocking a guy out, he's still a loser (and therefore not a master of boxing) because he got hit too many times yet he's the one standing at the end? Was the one hit declares the winner rule applied here? BTW, what was the rule of the contest or is it a no hold barr anything goes?

I don't doubt the skill of either side and I have great respect for those who told the story for they might have witnessed or heard from the most reliable source but this story sounds to me a romantic martial arts novel version of a real contest. Personally, there are just too many missing details to make a good judgement of how the fight went. I guess there were no real winner or loser in any fights.

Peace

Mantis108

[Ilya Profatilov]

This the official version of this story as it was told to me by my teacher the late Grandmaster Wang Yuanqian and as it was told by his grandfather Grandmaster Song Zide, GM Jiang Hualong's gongfu brother, friend and disciple.


"At the end of the Qing Dynasty (1644 - 1911), when Jiang Hualong (1855-1924) was living and teaching in the Yantai area, he would often challenge or be challenged by masters of different styles of boxing. Ultimately he defeated them all. Many times he defeated his challengers with his favorite techniques such as "Connected Elbows" (Bangzhou), "Thrust the flowers on the right and on the left" (Zuoyou Di Chahua) and his "Jade Ring Step" (Yuhuan Bu).
As a result, a number of frustrated boxers, who previously lost to Jiang united together. Master Gong Baotian (1867-1943), a master of Eight Trigrams Boxing (Bagua Quan), who had just been defeated in a recent boxing match with Jiang, acted as a representative of these Yantai boxing masters and challenged Jiang Hualong. He invited him to Shinanhu in Yantai to fight against them with weapons to the death.

When Jiang heard the news he burst with anger and rushed back to his native Laiyang County. At home, he took his swords and long spear and put on helmet and armor, as if he were going to war. His disciples also followed him. Jiang jumped on a horse and was about to gallop off when he was stopped by his friend and boxing brother Song Zide. Song Zide told him that this was not an honorable thing to do and in the long run this incident would cause even more troubles.

Eventually Song talked Jiang out of going and Song went to Yantai instead to settle the matter. In Yantai he met Master Gong Baotian, who was reasonable enough to recognize all the possible unpleasant consequences that could result in the aftermath of this conflict. Thus Song restored the peace between the martial arts community of Yantai and Jiang Hualong. Later, Jiang was invited to teach Praying Mantis in Yantai were he stayed for a few months until the tragic death of his only son Jiang Huanting...

According to the Laiyang County Gazetteer (Laiyang Xianzhi) Jiang Hualong became extremely famous at that time. There were even popular sayings referring to him as a great master: "Master of kicking and punching is Jiang Hualong and Master of broad sword and spear is Li Yongde (Yiquan Yijiao Jiang Hualong, Yidao Yiqiang Li Yongde) and "Jiang Hualong is a ferocious fighter and Li Mingge is a spiteful fighter" (Dademeng Jiang Hualong, Dadepo Li Mingge). "

As for the details of the actual Jiang Hualong vs. Gong Baotian (or Gong Tuzi) fight, there are no official records in existance.

Best regards,
Ilya Profatilov

[PaulLin]

Well, I have heard this story too. This is only famouse in the country sides, passed on by folk's words and never recorded officially. And there are many different versions. What my father has heard form GM Wei is that Jiang's son and Gong-Bao(double-words last name)'s son had a fight in a 2nd floor of a restarunt and Gong-Bao's son some how fall off the 2nd floor and died. Some say's Jiang's son trow him and some say it was an accident. And Jiang himself is a very big and strong person, on the other hand, GongBao Tian is a very small person. Jiang has once says that if he can just catch GongBao Tian, "chiue yea nung ba ta chiue sher"(in Wei's Shanton accent, it means "just by his hands he can break GongBao in half")
Not much I felt any benifit in talking all this story anyway. I would rather talk more about techniques.

[Stacey]

Was Jiang Hua Long a jerk, or is he just made out to be by Song Zide's lineage? I read Illya's article and it got me thinking.


Paul Lin. True or not, please share some folktales surrounding Jiang or Master Wei.

Mantis seems to be full of dynamic characters.


PS. I love that, If I can touch him I will break him in half with my hands only....and with an overly curled Shandong accept.

Thank you for that.

[Ilya Profatilov]

Stacey,

Grandmaster Jiang Hualong is one of the most important figures in Praying Mantis development. Please respect other lineages and do not use derogatory words when referring to our ancestors.

PS. GM Song Zide's lineage is GM Jiang Hualong's lineage.

Best regards,
Ilya Profatilov

[EARTH DRAGON]

It is obvious that you are russian, but I was wondering if you ever taught in russia and for how long, and also where you are located /teaching now. I have read articles about you and or written by you and are curious. Thanks in advance

[Tainan Mantis]

Styles that are related to GM Jiang

-8 step
He created the 6 essential forms of the style. In fact, I believe this style is his creation. He also passed Pai an to this style.
I suspect he also created lipi, but have no proof.

-plum flower
His style.

-secret door
Has his 7 essential forms

-7*
contains some of his personal forms like mei hwa lu and 3 routes of essentials.

-Wah Lum
Li Dan Bai's fan che form most likely passed through GM Jiang and on to WL, 8 step and 7*.

[Stacey]

I am showing no disrespect for Jiang Hua Long, you did. Unless he really was an idiot whose Saintly (and better fighting) kung fu brother Song Side always had to calm down. Yes they have the same lineage, but they split, so I find it interesting that the descendents of SOng Side make Jiang out to be an arrogant blowhard, when Jiang's martial descendents think of him as Saintly/Taoist etc. Maybe he was, I just found the interpretation interesting.