YOUR opinion of internal artists fighting ability?

[Chris McKinley]

I know what the traditional stereotype is. This external style is great or that external style is great, but don't mess with the old man who's a neijia master.

I know what the modern day stereotype is. Internal arts are all about old people and hippies moving in slow motion in the park while wearing silk pajamas and spouting tidbits of Taoist profundity. These guys can't actually fight there way through a wet rice paper wall.

Both of those stereotypes are humorously over-simplified, even when they are at their most true. What I'd like to know is what do the members of KFO, especially those with actual experience touching hands, think of the fighting abilities of internal artists as a rule.

[Shaolindynasty]

I don't like those catagories I prefer to think of it this way. When people say internal they mean arts based on Taoist principle. External=Shaolin type styles. Neither better just different.

I personally have never fought an internal(Taoist) style fighter. The technque is good and the theroy is sound. I just find the majority of them are

1. extremely overconfident in their "superior" style(usually beginners)

2. to much false humility(usually have a few years in and later on grow out of this)

At least out of the people who post here. Either one of these is damaging to the practice isn't it?

Anyway I think there are lots of good internal(Taoist arts) fighters but they aren't in anyway superior to external(buddhist arts) fighters. Yet to be completely honest I beleive the majority of Kungfu guys can't fight their way from a wet paper bag. It's not a problem with the art but in the USA kungfu tends to attract hippies, wannabe philosophers/mystics and 90 pound weaklings like the one in the old Charles Atlas advertisements. They sure are fun to beat up though:D

[CD Lee]

shaolin

I am new to Xingyi. So I am the beginner. But I can tell you this after taking some Xingyi. The crap I heard on this board as to what was internal and external was a lot of that. Nobody here can really tell the difference without going and see/feeling what it is. Based on what I have seen, been taught and felt, the WAY power is generated is very different in the Internals than the externals. And it takes time to learn. No magic going on, just a different way to do something.

Also, and maybe this is because I am takin Xingyi, and not Taji, but we only have two guys smaller than me, and I am 200lbs. and not too fat. :) But hey dude, Xingyi is about smashing and pounding, no time to get light headed on health dancing.

By the way, I followed others advice on THIS board, and decided to start taking some Internal Arts, and hey, at least my horrible posture has been corrected. My problem now, is that I FEEL everytime I get into that old slumpy posture. And not just standing either. Kinda ruined some of my old video game and computer working habits. ****.

[red_fists]

Hi Chris.

My viewpoint here is the same for both extrenal and internal:

"Same can and some can't."
And most of the people that can don't go around advertising it.

Being myself a fair newbie to the Internal Arts (not to MA itself), I can see that the potential is there same as with many other systems I learned.
After that it becomes personal of course.

But, yes, I believe that Internal fighting ability is about the same as external.
Not better or weaker but different.

Just my 2 Yen's worth.

[Leonidas]

Wow, an actual thread about Kung Fu and on the main forum no less.........back to the question.

I personally respect the "internal arts". Not necessarily everyone practicing but i think aside from the majority that will never gain any skill or ever understand how to use it in a fight, the others have proven it to be effective. I guess thats the Internal/External trade-off. Internal takes longer but builds health somehow, someway while you wait and train, fewer people will actually know how to fight using it. External gives you fighting ability quicker, alittle harder to use in extreme old age ( 70, 80 range). Theres a alot of contradiction though. Some people state that all arts are equal and we should judge the practitioner, but in the same sentence mention how Tai Chi and the like are superior to everything else. Whether it's by body mechanics, alignment, the use of chi=jing, etc. or by the fact that they switched from whatever they practiced and now practice an "internal art" for whatever reason.

[NafAnal]

Overrated. But only because of the myths (i.e. don't mess with the little old man) There are as many good internal as external fighters, they just go about things slightly differently. A few things IMO about either side are slightly more efficient. But internal i reckon is more overrated than external.

[KnightSabre]

I don't think I've seen many traitional internal arts that teach in an alive and realistic manor with resisting apponents.
Thats probably why it takes so long to become a good fighter in it

[Shaolindynasty]

I think the "take along time to learn" thing may be a myth or misunderstanding about internal arts. I have heard first hand accounts about young children and teenagers in Chen Jia Gou kicking butt with Tai Chi. I have also heard their daily training consists of a morning workout in which they run do pushups situps etc. So I think the "soft" type classes here are probally not they way it should be.

Like I said before I don't like those catagories I just think the difference is that one uses Taoist principles and one uses Buddhist principles. I think an old man from a Shaolin style and an old man from Tai chi/hsing yi/Bagua would pretty much be in the same place.

[JasBourne]

Being a student of an art that at its zenith perfectly blends both internal and external, it's my opinion that the only thing that matters is the individual. How good does the individual fight? S/he can have chi out the yingyang so to speak, means nothing if they never fight with it.

[Fu-Pow]

Perhaps some of the "magic" of Taiji is that the "little old man" can still best 20 year olds. Whereas external artists abilities seem to wither in their old age. It may seem magical but its just one method is better attuned to older practitioners.

[bamboo_ leaf]

.” So I think the "soft" type classes here are probably not they way it should be.”

How they should be depends on what your looking for I would imagine. I think it really depends on the teacher and a persons interpretation / perception of what are called internal arts.

The common thread “IMHO” that I have found in IMA arts that I use to separate them from the others is that the developmently influences seemed to have been based on philosophies expressed in a MA medium.

Much different then the development of say a style like praying mantis or maybe wing chun /many other arts/ where the arts if you can believe the org. stories appear to have developed in response to a direct combative need.

Even in China there are people with very different ideas within the IMA community (from those people that I have talked with) of what is and is not internal, it’s not like everyone agrees either you accept a master’s definition until you can follow/find your own way or you’re stuck.

Another master may come along and tell you something that seems to be contrary what you have just learned.

once you have a clear idea, then you can really be free to follow your way instead of a way.

The differences that I see between here and there is that people seem to have a more open mind and are not so regimented. Maybe a lot has to do with the culture that goes along with the art. Something that I don’t think always comes though here.


just because a person is old if s/he is good then they are good / also if they are not so good then this is true also.

the trick as i see it, is where are you at in your own training to know what your looking for and how open are you to change.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

our guys can fight and fight well, but sifu has also implimented a couple other hard styles into our system. most of the advanced practicioners seem to use a slightly spicey taichi more than anything else though.

[DelicateSound]

I don't believe in aliens, the moon landings, nessie, or chi. Although I'm sure one of them will be rectified when I start Wing Chun.

[KC Elbows]

Yes, a lot of aliens do wing chun.:D

[Ray Pina]

I agree with a lot of what has been written. Good gung fu is good gung fu.

Two statements. Well, one statement and a question.

Where are the Shoalin/external boxers past middle age?

And, just to be safe, don't mess with that little old man in CHinatown ... because you never know. There's at least one that will kill you real quick.

[Shaolindynasty]

I don't know why every body thinks shaolin style fighters past middle age are useless.

1. Shaolin arts DO have internal practices

2. Shaolin exercises the body completely. Shaolin arts exercise both internal and external. I am sure if you consult internal masters they will say this is nessacary, unless they are "quacks"

3. People can last along time in Shaolin arts, Shaolin may be labeled as external but during the development of practice methods. Shaolin masters took great care to make sure the methods weren't destructive to the body.

4. I have seen video of a very old Shaolin monk(near 100 years old I think) using a monks spade that was said to weigh 90 LBS.

5. Shaolin arts change with your age. A 20 year old Longfist fighter will use his art differently than a 70 year old fighter. Just like the "internal arts" the more mature you get in the art the less "external/muscular" force you use.

6. All martial arts reguardless of the "external internal" labels move towards using subtile movement in effect "Subduing 1,000 lbs with a single ounce".

7. Have you guys ever seen the 70 or 80 year old guy running marathons around young people at parks? Physical movement is possible at old age if you live a clean life style.

See what I mean about most of the internal artists here? They think they alone have the fountain of youth and that their style is far superior to anything else. I like internal arts but the superior attitude allot of internal players have turns me off to the arts.

[taijiquan_student]

It turns me off too.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

my turn offs are rainy days, mean people, gossip about me . ..

. .. oh wait . .. sorry.

[Sharky]

my turn offs are when they always have to have their friends around and you just want to f*ck them silly.

so a big "f.uck you" to the fat friend of every attractive girl on the planet.

[Ray Pina]

Funny Sharky. Bringing the locker room talk to the show.

Shoalin, I am only asking. It wasn't a stement but a question. I will say doing a form (though impressive swinging one of those at that age) is different from fighting.

If you reversed it I'd say my sifu: At 60 years young he goes to a boxing gym in NYC and fights with the Golden Gloves for fun. For fun. He admits he has trouble with the super heavweights because the punching with gloves doesn't do enough damage (he weighs about 145). He asks them to take the gloves off and they say no way. He's been aproached to fight pro, not having his age known.

As for martial artist, he still accepts challenges and there have been a few guests since I started a year ago. So, my master is proof that the internal -- not relying on speed reflexes or muscle strenght -- is quite usable past middle age, though I suspect my sifu will live for a verry long time. Probbaly out live myself. He's full of life.

One of the reasons I train so hard is because I'd like to stand in his place oneday, so he doesn't have to do the foghting. He deserves to sit back at this stage and watch his art in motion.

Anyway, I digress. I have done the bone washing drills and gun ji fook fu. The later goes against internal principles. The dynamic tension, 100% against. If you are feeling your own power, the other guy isn't. And, besides that, you are still, can't flow or chnage easily and the striking becaomes forced and awkward.

Just my two cents though.

[Shaolindynasty]

Just because dynamic tension goes against "internal art principles" doesn't mean anything to me. I don't practice internal arts, at least not yet. The point I am making is that they are different but each can take you far. One comment I hear from allot of internal guys is that "look at that, it's not the way we do it we are better". Dynamic tension actually does train internal energy, the Wei Qi, this is the basis for the iron body. You aren't supposed to strike using dynamic tension that would be stupid:rolleyes:


In my short time in martial arts I have learned that everybody does it different. Just because my method is different doesn't make anybody elses less valid or mine better. Your Sifu may have acomplished allot with the internal arts but think of it this way, would he have less ability if he chose a shaolin art? I doubt it, his acomplishment comes from his character and determination not his chosen path.

I used the Monk spade example to prove that even though he was old he still had allot of strength. I doubt most people here could use a 90LB monk spade.

[Ka]

Hey
I see it as firstly a misinterpartation of this whole Internal/external deal by teachers in the west.
Second I think that in order to acheive competence in anything you have to put in the hard yards.This means the student has to put in,get out there and play,not just dutifully attend his classes.
I think many simply take the road of lest resistence,finding that within their schools they are not required to fight and so they don't investigate any further.If one is doing for health reasons all power to them,the problems arise when they are tricked into beleving(usually by their instruictor) that the push hands that they dabble in is making them invincable.

Without a doubt the greatest effect is from the way Tai Chi has been promoted around the world.It is taken as the stardard (as I did with reference to push hands)on which to judge other "internal MA" .

[CD Lee]

See what I mean about most of the internal artists here? They think they alone have the fountain of youth and that their style is far superior to anything else. I like internal arts but the superior attitude allot of internal players have turns me off to the arts.


Uhh, no. I have not seen the internalists on this thread saying that their internal art is FAR SUPERIOR to externals. That would also need to be more than one or two to deserve your ranking of MOST internal artists here. What posts are you refering to that say internals are far superior? I missed it.

[Mantis9]

I don't think that the little old man myth is such a myth, though, maybe more of a legend. In many MA histories, including mine, there are tales of older masters dispatching the local band of riff-raff. I wouldn't totally discount these stories as mythology, because I have little evidence pointing either way.

In my personal history, my grandfather was an exceptional worn down fighter, who taught me a few things about boxing. He made me think twice about picking a fight with him; even if it was all in fun.

Sorry, I went on a tangent. I'll try to stay on topic next time.

[Yung Apprentice]

You know what I don't like? Stereotypes.

[Sharky]

good one

[Sharky]

altho the fat friend is a FACT, not just a stereotype.

apart from this girl i've JUST started seein - she doesn't have one. she's great :p :p :p :p :p :p

[Sam Wiley]

Don't worry, Sharky, I'm sure there'e a fat friend waiting in the wings to ruin one of your future nights.;)

I have a lot of respect for the external arts, and I have met several practitioners I considered to be very good. However, as they age, I feel they will lose the edge they had in youth. In fact, I have met several practitioners like this, because theywere looking for an art they could use well into old age, so it's apparently a widespread opinion, even if not universally true. I started the internal while still fairly young because, being a fairly economical individual, I didn't want to waste time learning one art and then have to take up something else in old age to make up for the effects of age itself.

But of course, there are elder from all styles that defy the rule, such as Karate amsters who are extremely relaxed and in good health, and internal masters who die of easily avoided illnesses. So I guess, again, that it depends in part on the individual.

[shaolinboxer]

Old karate masters are internalists. Don't be fooled.

[Sharky]

ooh, i got another; fat people that eat chicken legs off the bone.

they on some hardcore cannable sh.it. fuc.kin disgustin.

[Ray Pina]

ShaolinDynasty. My last posst was not a, "We do it like this, you do it like that, but we are better."

It was in response to the all so common clame by Hung Gar and Wing Chun to be internal. There methods of internal go against internal principles. That's what I'm saying.

As for my sifu and his ability given an external style, he has taken the external styles furhtet than most here claiming to know them. He studied WC with Ip Man, Hung Gar, Mantis, Boxing he has even trained Tae Kwon Do. When I heard that it blew me away. But I admire that mindset -- he's not one to say unless he has seen.

I try to be the same way. I am speaking from what I have seen in Hung Gar (not just mine under Frank Yee's student, but out at tournaments) and Wing CHun (same).

Its a silly argument in the end. Do what you want. But the odds of walking into that "great school" on a first try, up the block on the main road, is very unlikely.

I came to the internal after 13 or 14 years of Isshin-Ryu, 4 of Hung Gar/Wing Chun and 3 or so of Southern Mantis.

My foundation was set with Isshin-Ryu, learned how to move and more iportantly look and see, how to train -- determination. WC taught me trapping and sticking. Hun Gar power. Southern Mantis ferosity.

Now I am looking for that next level. Superb, unquestionable technique, backed by energy practices and a healthy resolve to be able to continue in combat to a ripe old age.

That is what "I" am looking for.

It would have been very easy to stay with Isshin-Ryu as a lower dan blackbelt. I was already considered one of the best at the school, even though I was young. I could have stayed with Hung Gar and Wing Chun, but the teaching was not so good there.

I almost stayed with the S. MAntis, that's how much I liked it. It took meeting an internalist to show that there is still a higher way.

[JasBourne]

Sharky, if you want more action, try being at least HALF as attractive as the girls you chase, ok?

;)

[Sam Wiley]

Ah crap, I left out the "h." That was supposed to read "karate h amsters!":p

Seriously, though, I know what you mean. I'm not sure if this level of progression is still caried out today or whether it was lost, though. An Uechi Ryu friend of mine gave me a demo video a while back of some old Uechi masters (not hamsters!:p ) moving more like internal stylists than karate stylists. This one master had the "waving" effect going on big time. But this is the only place I have seen this. According to Erle Montaigue, there is a Karate master, whose name I forget, who does his kata (and I would assume fights as well) as if he were doing Taiji.

[Sharky]

jas, i'll explain why your cuss wasn't funny.

it's simply because it didn't relate to anything i had said. if, for example, you had turned the fat thing around on me, then there could be potential for it to be humorous. But you didn't.

No, what you did in fact do, was assume i wanted "more action" when i never said anything about that. Then you made a wierd statement about trying to be half as attractive as the girls i chase - but in whose eyes?

Frankly jas, i'm disappointed with your efforts. Do keep trying though.

Edd

[JasBourne]

"what you did in fact do, was assume i wanted "more action" when i never said anything about that. " Sure you did, man. You even went one step further, and tried to blame your lack of success on the fact that the chiks you chase have fat friends that get in the way, that's why you can't get near 'em. Man, if the chik wanted to be with you, she'd tell the friend to get lost, no prob.

"about trying to be half as attractive as the girls i chase - but in whose eyes? " Well now this one is pretty self-evident - in the eyes of the chik you're chasin', of course.

Ahh, relax, Edd. I was just reacting to your stupid fatchik comment, its the same crap guys who cant get laid spout everywhere in the world, like they're such a **** fine catch themselves. No need to get into it, I just like taking the mickey out of you. I'll try harder next time ;)


Back to the topic! :D

[Ray Pina]

O, I know there are some good karate players out there, no doubt. They just aren't springing up at Tiget Schulman's ... or at least not out here on Long Island.

I met a guy a little younger then myself a while ago; got his black belt in three years. To me, that's just **** insulting.

Hey, maybe he was a protogy, but I sensed he would have some trouble in a real altercation.

But, he must have been good, because he quit already, having gained mastery of the black belt:rolleyes:

My old teacher told me, "Black belt is really your white belt, now we can begin training."

I think he was right.

[Chris McKinley]

For clarification,

When I asked the question, I was and still am referring to those arts which fit the most stringent orthodox definition of internal arts. These would be arts that:

a) are Taoist in nature and are based on Taoist internal principles. This rules out any Shaolin arts.

b) rely on structure as their primary source of power rather than the external musculature.

c) originated within the borders of China. Again, I'm ruling out Shaolin arts here.

I have nothing at all against Shaolin arts, or arts from non-Chinese cultures, for that matter. It's just that this particular thread isn't about them, pure and simple. If someone would like to argue why this or that Shaolin art qualifies as internal, start your own thread and debate away. The question I raised refers to those arts classically considered as the neijia arts. Thanks.

[Nexus]

Most internalists aren't fighters as it is so there are a lot of variables hanging loosely around the question.

Even internalists who can defend themselves are unlikely to be fighters.

[Ryu]

Hey Sharky, feel priveledged. At least Jas is coming out and telling you her exact feelings, and not hiding her crap about you forever never letting you know and suddenly bringing it up for no apparent reason without any rationality and just blows up completly out of character and acts about as old as a newborn fowl.

*grumble grumble*

:D
:D

What Jas did is a GOOD thing, see? :D

But Jas, Sharky has a point too. Being a woman is bad.
LOL okay sorry, obviously I don't mean that. Give me a couple days, I'll be back to my chivalrous self. :)

Ryu

[Ray Pina]

"Even internalists who can defend themselves are unlikely to be fighters."

First time I heard someone here put it that way. My sifu will not send someone out to a tournament if they are going to fight.

"We don't fight, we just beat the $hit out of you." That's the school motto. I'm not there yet. I'm still a fighter, relying on my weight too much. Though strides are being made.

[NafAnal]

Sam, the karate guy you are talking about could be Kanazawa.... Apparently very good. But i'm suire there's more than a few karate/taiji hybrid guys....

[Nexus]

EvolutionFist, you are on the right track. In T'ai Chi, we are learning not to over-extend ourselves. Energy comes at us, we neutralize that energy. That could mean yielding, but it could mean many other things as well. We do whatever we need to do in order to neutralize that energy whether its move up, down, left right, forward, back etc.

For instance, take the law for instance which states that in a self-defense situation you are legally allowed to do whatever is necessary to neutralize your attacker but nothing beyond that. That "idea" does not only apply to legal laws, but also universal laws, as once we have neutralized oncoming force, anything else done would be us adding energy to the situation.

Example: If someone decides to attack you, and you neutralize the attack without causing serious harm and they run away, if you chase them to "teach them a lesson" that would be going against the tai chi principles. Although jokingly one might say you are sticking and following ;)

As for your teachers motto, I agree with that completely. T'ai chi is like an elephant. It is precise and exact and if you make a mistake it stomps you, and you pay the price. So internalists are relaxed for the most part, why? Because they are comfortable dealing with oncoming force, because thats all it is. The fighting as I stated earlier is an illusion, it is simply a matter of energy coming in your direction.

- Nexus

[Chris McKinley]

Interesting recent points, guys. I, too, do not train people for sport/tournament/NHB purposes. I tell them up front that I don't offer uniforms, rank, or trophies. I jokingly mention that that scares off a lot of folks, which it then ironically does. For me, while I'd prefer my students not use my training to compete in a sports genre, it's far more important that they not use it to engage in REAL fights in unnecessary situations. As such, I include regular Socratic forum sessions, in which we discuss specific scenarios, how different circumstances create specific moral dilemnas, and discuss/train the psychology/physiology of hostile encounters. We also discuss specific ways to defuse potentially hostile situations. Still, it takes two to argue, but it only takes one to decide it's a fight.

[jimbob]

Chris

I saw a 55 year old tai chi practitioner beat the hell out of a 31 year old 3rd dan Kyokushinkai fighter. Some months after that he became my teacher and I have been with him since 1989. The funny thing is, he doesn't know himself how to 'make it work'. And he is bombastic and he does have a very inflated sense of his own self importance. I've also watched him dismantle taekwondo and shotokan people and a choy li fut person (me). I wish he could explain himself better than he does though - when I ask him how/what/where etc he just shrugs and tells me to practise more pushing hands.

I'm not looking for any 'secrets' from him - I just enjoy is company and I like the way I feel from practising tai chi. I must be one of those hippy types someone refered to earlier!

[Nexus]

Inflated sense of his self importance? Sounds like he's actually a man.

[CannonFist]

Internal cannot exist without external and vice versa. The one that knows how to manipulate the internal and external dynamically will achieve what needs to be achieved. Instead of emphasising external or internal, why not use simple terms or ideas that are easier to understand like coordination or efficient way of moving.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Because those terms don’t really describe what is actually being done. :)

They describe things on a level that would work for most people but after a point there are no other words that I have found that would express it.

I think it would be like talking with a high level physicist, asking them to describe a common occurrence. One explanation would be the one you could understand at your level the other you could only understand after much training.

Many come up with words or concepts based on today’s science, when I read most of them while they can describe what is happing biomechanical they say for the most part the same things that have been described using the Chinese models many years ago.

In some cases they have no explanation because it’s not explored, used or even accepted as in the concept of chi. ;)

[BSH]

Chris:

Do you feel that a Martial Art which was originally Buddhist in nature incorporate Taoist principles and therefore incorporate internal aspects?

I don't feel that the two need to be mutually exclusive.

Thoughts?

[Shaolindynasty]

"Do you feel that a Martial Art which was originally Buddhist in nature incorporate Taoist principles and therefore incorporate internal aspects?"

Good point, Isn't that pretty much what Tai Chi Chuan is?

Also why does the system have to incorperate Taoist principles to be internal?

There's more to internal than slow movement and certain body mechanics. There's different ways to do everything including "internal" exercise. All movement should be a combination of internal and external. Also every style has a different way of developing and useing power even styles that are in the same classification.

[Chris McKinley]

BSH,

Perhaps on another thread. On this one, I'm more interested in answers to the question as I've asked it for now. It's a worthwhile question of itself, and I think deserves its own thread.


Shaolindynasty,

RE: " Good point, Isn't that pretty much what Tai Chi Chuan is?". Not necessarily. Perhaps you are referring to Chen Gar and its original Shaolin roots, or the Luohan Chuan similarities to Baguazhang.

RE: "Also why does the system have to incorperate Taoist principles to be internal?". Because that's how I've chosen to define them for the question I've asked. If you don't agree with such an assertion, start your own thread on that very question. The question I've asked has been defined with the parameters I've used because those are the arts I am inquiring about, pure and simple.

[jun_erh]

I always remember this one article in KFQ about Bak Mei. In it they talk about fighting tournamnents on Emei Mountain. The Bak Mei fighters would win most of the time against the internal styles because it is more aggressive. It was the issue with the a hundred weapons...

[Yung Apprentice]

Once again we are dealing with stereotypes. Not all internal styles are passive. Like I've stated before, Hsing-Yi is internal, but is also considered very aggresive, even by external standards.

[denali]

If you understand the internal mechanics, then you can make any movement internal. The posture itself does not make a movement internal or external.

[CannonFist]

about Bak Mei practitioners beating the internal arts.....

Would you classify Bak Mei as internal or external? In popular Chinese stories Bak Mei reached legendary status after becoming a Taoist and adopting "internal" or "Taoist" martial arts. He had a background in "external" or "Shaolin" martial arts. I have even seen portraits of the white eyebrow (Bak Mei) taoist in a taoist temple as he is considered a sage by some. However Bak Mei was also considered one of the 5 elders of Shaolin in the stories who became a traitor. This point about Bak Mei style having both Buddhist and Taoist principles is used by some as a marketing tool in promoting the art.

[Paul]

Bak Mei is superior.

[CannonFist]

hehehehe

Of course Bai Mei Dao Ren is superior as he is the sage with no vulnerable spot, well almost. Seriously, in some taoist traditions Bai Mei personified someone who had attained Taoist realization and had no weaknesses because there is no sense of self. Just like an infant who remains unafraid of fierce beasts as quoted in the Dao De Jing.

[jun_erh]

I was referring to the style Bak Mei, not the priest!!

[Ray Pina]

Claiming that Taiji came from Shaolin is speculation I believe. Who can really say? Who was there? No one can say where Taiji was originated, though there are many theories.

Same with Bak Mei. Was he even real? The book I'm writing is about his legend, but with a different twist. I'll be done in a few months and I think you guys will enjoy it.

As for the style, the more I'm learning from my master, the more I realize whoever inveneted the style had internal training. Chik Pu's foot work is Chicken Step the entire way. The whole form, front and back, is done from the San Ti. Now, is that coinsidence or did two people just realize its importance? Who knows.

But there are other simularities. The only difference is that Bak Mei's strikes are in the forms, where as some of the internal, say like Taiji, assumes one reaching that level already knows those things, so the focus is on how to do it better, an upgrade, internal.

My two cents

[Leimeng]

~Internal Martial Artists have tremendous lethal fighting ability. The problem is finding a teacher worth their salt to teach you. unfortunately the internal arts suffer from the affliction of a bunch of stary eyed new age hippy types that want to become one with their belly button or some crap like that. (I meditated on my belly button once, all I found was lint...)
~Most the hippy type teachers cant fight their way out of a wet paper bag.
~If a person looks hard though they can find a real internal stylist to learn from. They will learn to fight, to heal and to be healthy. All at once! What a concept....

Peace,

Sin Loi

yi beng, kan xue

[scotty1]

"Claiming that Taiji came from Shaolin is speculation I believe. Who can really say? Who was there? No one can say where Taiji was originated, though there are many theories. "

Wong Kiew Kits book The Art Of Shaolin Kung Fu states Taiji came from Shaolin. Can't remember the story though.