Terrorism and Buddhism

[NYerRoman]

AMITABHA.
I saw a few weeks ago a thread relating buddhism and the events of September...and the possible points of view of buddhist thought pertaining to the US response.
In the replies, all basically stated that the we, the US, must fight back and no one really expanded on philosophy to justify it.
I'm not an expert in Ch'an Buddhism as I read much on it and cannot practice. I live in Rome and the Church is just too dominant.

Now, in buddhist circles and in philosophy, bad must be punished. But has everyone forgotten reaon and logic? I was back in NY when it all happened. I was born and raised in NYC. That day ripped my heart out.
But has anyone asked him/herself why such an event happened? Don't reply that they're evil and we're good. No. That is simplistic and just plain dumb and easy for many in our society that do not look outside the confines and see what foreign policy with a kick ass military does in the world. We all need to sleep at night knowing we are strong and doing good in the world because it's easier.

In the course of nature and life, things happen for a reason, a precedent, or a reponse to something that evokes an emotional or physical reaction. Religion is a strong catalyst for evoking violent responses. Yes. But I am not one who abides by the logic that those who do not like the US are merely jealous of us because "we made it and they didn't (Mike Wallace on 60 Minutes).

We must look beyond the immediate feelings we have and ask ourselves the most important questions about the US role in the world given the buddhist nature of the forum.
- Have we become in harmony with the world? No. Granted it is very difficult given international relations.
- Does the US act taking into consideration people's well being from different lands, especially in the developing world? No. Sorry but it doesn't.
- Does US policy embrace other nations and lands as brothers and sisters, and helps them as a supposed equal should? That is obviously not the case.

Buddha is compassion. You can't place the argument of what has happened in the context of Hong Kong Kung Fu movies and what the shaolin monks do facing the Manchus.
We must analyze this and our actions before making assumptions and carpet bombing nations, killing innocent civilians as we had happen to us. By the way, how many afgani and pakistani civilians were killed? Funny how they don't tell us that. US news is very careful to not give us all the info. And we are never taught it as well in school (How many Vietnamese were killed in Vietnam? 3-4 million UN statistics. That changes perspective on the war, doesn't it).

But if the simple compassion statement is not enough....think about this:
The background into what happened was published in France by two French journalists...LA VERITE' INTERDITE (Brisard and Dasquie').
It is very interesting but never translated into English. It opens a whole new dimension to the events and answers the question about cause and effect.

Don't call me un-patriot or ridiculous things like that. This is not about patriotism which emphasizes the US vs. THEM argument. I am a proud NYer and trying to incorporate Buddhism in my life.

[Xebsball]

You are right.

Buddhism says to do good things and do your best to stop bad things from being done. But when you kill the inocents and when you act "evil" the same way "evil" did to you... you are being counter productive, bad karma, thats not the buddhist way.

[r.(shaolin)]

Good sentiments NYer' but there a couple points you make I take issue with.

[NYerRoman]

Thanks for writing but YOU missed the point.

The buddhist nature referrs to the subject that was written about weeks ago...buddhism and terrorism. But if I must...Given the forum, Shaolin, you are aware that shaolin style must incorporate a buddhist nature to it?

The dominant nature of the Church in Rome means that Rome is not a city in which many religions unite and mix in this society. I never made any reference to the Church's intolerance to other religions. How did you understand that? It is a societal thing in Italy. The Church is very dominant in the lives of people here and other faiths have a hard time establishing themselves. You are aware of that too?

But thanks for the discourses. Hopefully everyone of all religions will get the point that what is happening must stop on all fronts.

peace.

[Silumkid]

First, I'd like to say that I think it is bad debate etiquette to ask a question and then tell us what answer cannot be given. If you already know what answer you want, why are you asking?

The reason I say this is because I believe it sometimes IS as simple as "he/she/they don't agree with me/us and now hate me/us". It happens that simply every day. Now mind you, the US government is by far not perfect...but still better than anywhere else in my view.

I've heard the "Our policy is killing their children" but yet, noone can seem to be able to tell me exactly what policies of ours are responsible for this. If it's true, I'd love to know.

[KC Elbows]

In defense of NYerRoman, he was stating that, other than the catholic faith, there were slim pickings as far as buddhism in Rome. (r.)shaolin was correct in stating that this is not a buddhist forum per se(although shaolin IS buddhist so there will be buddhist influences here), but the argument regarding the invite of other leaders to a conference in Rome did not establish the case for a buddhist presence in Rome, as the only official of Rome mentioned in the text was the pope. All the other names were from other regions, not Rome, and a speach does not, by tone or content, change the religious makeup of a region.

He was saying "I live in Rome, and there's not much buddhist representation here." I think its fair to take the word of a local on local issues here. The response had nothing to do with the question, it was a misunderstanding regarding the lack of buddhism in Rome. The initial post seems to make that reference only to establish that the poster is trying to be buddhist, but has minimal opportunity to come in contact with more knowledgeable buddhist outside of places like this forum. I don't think this statement was made to color the rest of the post, regarding buddhism and terrorism.

Mind you, there could be more civility all around. Perhaps we should all...

"examine ourselves before God concerning our commitment to peace"

Sorry (r.)shaolin. Had to be a smart alec.
:D

I'd also like to state that wars occur for land and money FAR MORE than they occur because one group hates another. Hate is usually the justification, not the underlying reason. It is bad ettiquete to deny possible answers, but in this case, the possible answer is not the most likely answer anyway.

If we assume they do hate us, why?

Their lives are misery. Ours are comfortable, even affluent.

They are muslims, most of us are not.

They are one ethnic group, many of us are others.

None of these are insurmountable problems. However, there are more possibilities:

The western nations made a general practice of turning 19th century instabilities in the east and middle east into 20th century instabilities that they could take advantage of.

Would the US allow a super power to arise in the middle east that was friendly, but put its own needs ahead of US needs, just as the US puts its own needs ahead of the needs of the middle east?

Just babbling. Make of it what you will.

[NYerRoman]

Ok. It seems I may have not expressed myself extremely well. But thanks KC Elbows for getting it. You are wise and eloquent indeed.
You said it correct when you say hate is the justification, not the cause.
But one thing, the buddhist nature of the Shaolin forum was not what I was getting at but the thread I saw a few weeks ago. BUT...shaolin must incorporate Buddhist thought. If it didn't, then it would be kick boxing. But whatever.
Rome is not full of Ch'an temples.

Silumkid, when people respond to something that I didn't say, I am not telling them they are wrong. And no, when terrorists collapse the WTC, crash into the Pentagon and crash yet another plane, things are not simple at all.
You don't know how US policy is killing people? Ever hear of cruise missles? Where do they land? The US is the only country to date to be condemned for international terrorism. In 1986 under Reagan...Nicuragua. The Iran-Contra thing. Remember? The thousands of people killed because we didn't like the left government.

Anyway I hope it gets better before it all gets worse. Bombs are exploding here.
peace.

[richard sloan]

...what NYer is saying (I spent a summer in Italy painting and the Church has definitely infused the boot) about the prevalence of the Church I would just like to say, as a Roman Catholic disciple of a Shaolin monk- the two are not exclusive of each other- depending. Of course there are certainly proponents of each who will argue that. Being a good buddhist is very similar to being a good Catholic...you should check out Thomas Merton. Bottom line is those are labels and classifications, at a certain point there is no difference. How can there be? The truth is the truth.

You must delve below the presented surface of catholicism. What you are looking for is there.

An interesting point I would like to mention is that Catholicism has a very strong and vibrant monastic system which will allow you to understand and pactice your ch'an. If you ever get the chance, open most any book on Zen and you will notice something very interesting. You will often see the Imprimatur.

Regarding the terrorist attacks, the issue is one which is based on the causes and the conditions of our reality. The great master Jesus was once asked about forgiveness. How many times should one forgive his transgressors? The answer was multiple times- however, that answer requires that one's transgressors have not removed themselves from this forgiveness equation. If your transgressor seeks your death and shows no hope of reform, how can you forgive them if their goals are met. There is no one to do the forgiving, so the equation breaks down.

Intelligence alone allows us to determine good from evil. The Shaolin have a very proactive response to evil. Shi Yan Ming's position is that sometimes "doing nothing accomplishes nothing." This is in direct contrast to someone such as the Dalai Lama...and another example is Tibet. I think many of the tibetans looked at what happened as an outcome that helped them. I know that sounds twisted. Josef Campbell had raised some interesting insights into that aspect of buddhism.

I believe that life is sacred, and that unfortunatly the conditions under which some of these people have developed leave us with no choice but to release them.
The crimes of the world lie at all of our feet. I don't personally view it as an us vs them type of thing- in reality, there is only us. Unfortunately, not everyone understands, or wants to believe that. I wish that that were not so.

In war, nothing is nice or clean...

What happened in Afghanistan is disturbing on many fronts. Anyone who does a little research into it will quickly see why Afghanistan is such a prize. The price is obviously very dear. Well, the whole **** thing is enough to make my stomach twist.

[NYerRoman]

Interesting. But I have to question the Catholic/Ch'an Buddhist connection. In reading about Ch'an, I found the following:

- Tamo left the disciples considerable latitude in how to live. He did not require monks to be celibate, to fast, or perform rites of asceticism, nor was the order exclusive to males. He embraced the human condition as the starting point from which all "higher" revelations would spring. Shaolin remains unique in allowing its members this degree of freedom (and thus being more like Episcopalian ministers rather than Catholic priests). In Tamo's message of simplicity, he limits the more embellished aspects of sectarian religious practice and organization.

And for this reason, I walk around with my rosaries meditating. You can anywhere. Growing up Catholic, I find other differences. But that's for another thread...not this one. Your conclusion is right on!

[richard sloan]

... there are differences- but these differences will generally only be exploited by those who have a low level understanding of the meanings- like those who take the scriptures literally...

Scroll through most Zen books and you will see they bear the Imprimatur of the Roman Catholic Church. Spend some time with Aquinas...Thomistic "intuition of being" you will find very interesting.

You can find an amazing bridge constructed by the relationship between Thich Nhat Hanh and Thomas Merton...I believe Thich Nhat Hanh even celebrates mass...

"Let the dead bury the dead..."

[guohuen]

War is always about land and possesions regardless of the political and religious spin butholes put on it.

[NYerRoman]

What you said has nothing to do with Ch'an Buddhist philosophy and the topic of terrorism.....but.....

What? What a ridiculous statement you made. Land and possessions (economic wealth) give you greater political power. Duh. Where di you go to school? Avoid using name-calling....thanks.
Religion has been responsible for more wars in world history.

peace.

[yenhoi]

Response to original post:

“Buddism and Terrorism”

Lookup the “Aum Shinriko” – probably the largest and most well funded terrorist organization on earth – a Japanese Buddist Sect. 1996 Sarin Gas attacks in Tokyo Subway, several similar and related attacks around the same time. When they were finally busted in Japan, in 98 I think, the group had a Uranium mine in Australia, an attack helicopter from Russia, and several WWII era tanks.

Of course that means nothing and is hardly related to the topic, but it should be something to think about, as the group is still at large, being ran by the original founders daughter, and still very large and very well funded.

Now onto the meat of the original post.

“Have we become in harmony with the world?”

Huh? Is this the goal? When did this become the name of the game?

“Does the US act taking into consideration people's well being from different lands, especially in the developing world?”

Again, Huh? The US means the United States of America. That’s a abbr. for a government that governs only a small portion of the worlds population – and is suppose to act and make decisions for the benefit of THAT population. How many governments are there on earth that care about the entire world: 0. How many should: 0.

“:Does US policy embrace other nations and lands as brothers and sisters, and helps them as a supposed equal should?”

A third HUH? The US is in COMPETITION with other nations and lands. Unfortunately, I guess, nations aren’t out to try and schedule a big happy summer picnic where we can all hold hands and be happy to be human. Sounds nice, but not everybody lives in a Dr Seuss book.

“how many afgani and pakistani civilians were killed? Funny how they don't tell us that”

This was actually a very prominent news item at the time of the attacks and the Chaotic news coverage that followed, I don’t remember the exact number, I don’t even know the final body count, but you are very mistaken. If you went to almost any website dedicated to the 9/11 attacks or even any respectable news site, these numbers (however important they are for some random ass reason) can be easily found.

I am not a buddist, nor am I completely in touch with what buddism actually is or what its so-called tenets are. Anyone should be able to realize that governments and representative bodies are not there for the betterment of man kind (okay, maybe Sweden thinks they are) governments and the such are there for the benefit of their particular people, and are in a very vicious struggle for survival.

Now was this some kind of hidden argument for “We had it coming?”

If that’s the case, then Id let you have your argument, and let you say things like the US shouldn’t meddle here and there, and this and that, but in the end, you will have to look at the facts of 9/11 and notice who hijacked what and flew them into where. They weren’t Americans or Englishmen or Chinamen.

[yenhoi]

"What? What a ridiculous statement you made. Land and possessions (economic wealth) give you greater political power. Duh. Where di you go to school? Avoid using name-calling....thanks.
Religion has been responsible for more wars in world history. "

A fourth HUH?

Political power is not based solely on economic wealth. Where did YOU goto school? A Persons, or a cultures, or a societys, or a communitys or a nations Political power is not automaticlly increased with increased possessions.

Religion is not responsible for any wars, that is one of the most ignorant cop outs Ive ever seen, heard, or been taught - People cause wars, People kill other people, people stab, shoot, and drop bombs, people are corrupt and evil. Those same people used religion as an excuse, and as a way to corrupt other people. For a person who seems interested in the world, you sure dont seem to be interested in doing your research. Maybe your just lazy or does the Church got you down?

Who the hell says things like, "Duh. Where di you go to school? Avoid using name-calling....thanks. " Well, you do, but still maybe you should lay off the name calling and what not.

[rogue]

"But has anyone asked him/herself why such an event happened? "

Yes, to pursuade (frighten) the US to leave the Middle-East. With the US gone Iran & Iraq can then impose themselves on the region and bring either a beutiful secular dictatorship (Iraq) or a prosperous theocratic dictatorship(Iran) to everyone. A bonus by-product of this would be controlling the oil for most of the West.

And by the way, yes those people were evil and that's why Iran and Iraq like to use them.

yenhoi, you are correct sir!

[joedoe]

So following that logic, we could probably avoid a lot of problems if we pursued alternative fuel sources couldn't we?

[yenhoi]

Yes.

All nations and peoples should, it just makes sense, fossil fuels will one day run out.

Its also a myth that the US DEPENDS or NEEDS mideast oil. Yes, nearly all oil USED in the US is from the Middle East, thats cause we are smart, and dont use our oil, and we dont sell very much of it either (some to russia and asian nations) - we also try not to drill and pump too much of it, but we might start, and there are political as well as economical reasons to do so, and to not do so.

[norther practitioner]

It is unfortunate that G.W. Bush cut the alternative energy research budget, and wants to drill in the wildlife refuge. It is hard to really cut our dependancy on fossil fuels. It takes some sort of fossil fuel to read at night, eat anything (prosessing, packaging, etc.), drive anywhere, etc.

[yenhoi]

I dunno why you would dump money into alternative fuel research when the money would be better used conquering other sources of fossil fuels. (For example: smashing a central asian while building an international coalition to go smash up some more mideast places and throw your military clout around.)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by norther practitioner
It is unfortunate that G.W. Bush cut the alternative energy research budget, and wants to drill in the wildlife refuge. It is hard to really cut our dependancy on fossil fuels. It takes some sort of fossil fuel to read at night, eat anything (prosessing, packaging, etc.), drive anywhere, etc.

So you don't think that finding alternative sources of fuel for our modes of transport might help to cut our dependancy on fossil fuels?

And why does it require fossil fuels to do all those things? There are alternative sources for electricity generation. Why do foods need to be processed? Surely science could come up with better packaging alternatives.

The reason behind it all is profits - it is not as profitable to seek out those alternatives, so corporations do not bother, and governments don't encourage them to do so.

[NYerRoman]

Ok. Yenhoi....your points and counter arguments are not enlightening in the least.
To be brief...Harmony with the world, fair treatment, developing countries, etc. ALL WAS STATED WITHIN THE ARGUMENT OF BUDDHISM pal - NOT REALITY because if the whole world were buddhist, things like competition and unfair treatment wouldn't exist.
Therefore, yes there is competition. NO, the US does not just govern the United States population. It has a responsibility to the world given its superpower status.
And no...the civilian casualties are not given to the general public. The US puts the figures at a couple of hundred. The UN puts it at 8000.
(clearing throat noise)....keep the Dr. Seuss comments to yourself because the thread here is BUDDHISM AND TERRORISM and not the world according to you.
And political power and economics go hand and hand. Increased possession is not just land. HELLLLOOOOO. It's called money. I'm an economist. The subject is now called the political economy. It's now taught in schools. Go to one and find out.
Peace.

[jun_erh]

I think the problems over there is because of racism. The Palestinians don't like Jews. Don't want to live near them, don't want to see them period. For no good reason.

[yenhoi]

NYer:

Your wrong.

Superpower status does not = responsibility to the world.

Superpower status = can tell other people what to do.

Yes, money runs the world. Money buys tanks, tanks kill people.

Its a shame that bean counters like you actually get to teach, I really really hope its not political economy. Guys like you always forget about bullets.

[red_fists]

Originally posted by yenhoi
Superpower status = can tell other people what to do.

Stone Cold Steve Austin Impression:
"What?? What?? What?? ...."

Normal voice:
You gotta be kidding??

Wake up and smell the Gun-Powder, the majority of the world doesn't care what the US says.

[NYerRoman]

Yenhoi. You need to wake up and smell it. Superpower status means telling the world what to do WHICH in turn means it is responsability for actions, decision, consequences, etc.
Money rules the world. How do you keep your possessions, power, interests and property? You said it right. Bullets. Alas welcome to what the problem is and the topic at hand:

...the meaning of the thread...buddhism and terrorism. Cause and effect. Very Buddhist.

But, you are still missing the point. This is not reality according to you. It is the topic at hand which you have yet to address. Go to a political forum to preach.

Glad there are people like me teaching. There's a world out there that seems to not penetrate the US borders without it DIRECTLY penetrating them.

...and red_fists...the world does care. They don't like it. That's why there is now more protests and vocal and physical objections being raised.

With the crisis worsening in the Middle East (pathetic attention of the US media there....pictures and stories in all European papers), I pray for peace.....if not...let's just destroy ourselves quickly and get it over with.

later.

[red_fists]

Originally posted by NYerRoman

...and red_fists...the world does care. They don't like it. That's why there is now more protests and vocal and physical objections being raised.

With the crisis worsening in the Middle East (pathetic attention of the US media there....pictures and stories in all European papers), I pray for peace.....if not...let's just destroy ourselves quickly and get it over with.

later.

Oooh, so you are telling me now that because a few thousand Protesters & Policticans talk, that means that 6 billion People care.

The average person on this earth cares about very little:
Food to eat
A roof over the Head,
Job,
Clothing
Family
Chance of a Future.

Besides that most people don't really care much about who rules the Country, Politics, Economy and
who does what a long distance away.

Peace in the Middle East will be impossible in the next few years if not decades.
And nothing that the US or any other Country sez will change that. That is the cruel reality.

US wants to support Israel because Israel buys Military Hardware and other goods.
Plus, it gives tam an ally in the middle-east.

[joedoe]

red_fists, I'd have to agree with NYerRoman on this one - most people do care. Maybe not on a daily basis - then they care more about food, shelter, employment etc. But if you asked them what they thought of US involvement in international affairs, I can guarantee you they care. They will either say it is good and the US should do more, or they would say it is bad and they should keep their noses out of other people's business.

As for the other argument over the reality of power - who was it who said that with power comes responsibility? ;)

[red_fists]

joedoe.

Saying I care and saying I care enough to do something about it are 2 different things.

I also care about the little dog that is starving down the road, and I will be more likely to feed him than stop any Israeli or Palestinian.
Same way I care about a 100 or more other things in my life.

Too many people say I care, and that is how far their care really goes.

[NYerRoman]

Saying that people care does not semantically imply it is a positive response. It can be negative as well.

red_fists....the US does not sell Isreal weapons. The US GIVES Isreal weapons and money to spend as well. This is the basis of the problem, amongst other things, that has provoked outrage in the middle east.

But don't care. Or care a bit. Or really care. No one asked you. I do. WHY? I'm going to say it once again...this is a BUDDHIST oriented thread. If you are going to do Shaolin kung fu you had better give a **** about a lot of things, especially how we treat each other.

BUT what can one do about it? You're right. There is very little you can do. But how about....start raising your voice pal. Don't buy products. Tell people. Vote. We humans are trapped in many ways by the powers that be - political, economic/corporate, etc. But I will say this again...this thread is Buddhism and Terrorism.

Joedoe, how right you are about responsibility...
peace

[red_fists]

NYerRoman.

So a voice coming from a Buddhist Country doesn't count.
That is relating how the Buddhists here and in neigbouring countries feel.

Thanks for your caring attitude, you have shown me the true Buddhist way.

Over and out.

BTW, I only attacked the statement NEVER the Person.

[red_fists]

One thing I would like to point out.

Shao-lin Kung Fu does NOT equal Chan Buddhism.
So far I have not seen 1 Shaolin Kwoon that asked their students to convert or to accept Buddhism.
That would be like saying that all JMA practicioners have to do Shinto or Zen-Buddhism.
Yes, the Monks at the Temple practice Kung Fu & Buddhism.
But that does not mean that each non-monk Student has to do so aswell.

If you look at Shorinshi Kempo here the Art was merged with Japanese Zen Buddhism and is actually considered a form of religion.
We now return you to your scheduled programming.

[NYerRoman]

Ok....absolute sayings must be the thing in this forum. I never said Shaolin kung fu equals Ch'an Buddhism.
Shaolin kung fu INCORPORATES Ch'an Buddhism. You don't need to convert BUT you must undertand the essentials of the philosophy and incorporate them into your forms, technique, movement, breathing, and attitude. That is why it is Shaolin kung fu and not an ordinary martial art.

Alas...I stand corrected. Every martial art must incorporate it. Real masters teach it as a philosophy along with any martial art. Read BODHISATTVA'S WARRIORS and you'll get a clearer picture. The author actually dedicates only a few pages to Shaolin.

It's what it is. Would love to hear what others have to say...
peace bro