Japan and CHina

[Ray Pina]

Man, I saw a messed up special on TLC last night showing Japan's biological testing on the CHinese when they controlled Manchuria.

Real messed up! I now know why some Chinese won't teach the Japanese -- and I wouldn't either if I was them. I know it wasn't the present Japanese that did it, but God D a mn, there are still Chinese suffering or missing relatives from the plague and other diseases.

The Japanese purposely lost territory so when the Chinese troops moved in they would be poisened by the water and food. Great strategic move but cruel.

The stuff they did to civilians though was heart breaking. I will forever doubt when I hear a Japanese man having inherited the entire workings of a Chinese sytsem. No way! It be like the Isrealis giving Paletine and Iraq/Iran their nuclear technology. No way.

[ewallace]

More like giving the Iraqi's the launch codes to our nuclear weapons.

[red5angel]

I wouldnt doubt it more then I would doubt anyone else. Some people move on and get over it. Sounds small doesnt it, but those are the biggest people of all. Those that can look past it to the human beings around them.
There is no reason why a Japanese artist would not know a chinese martial art. It may be more rare, but the past doesnt preclude the future.

[Cody]

I wasn't aware of the details you posted. Very sad. Yet, war has no rules, not really.

Reason for my post is to ask for information. When the Japanese invaded Hong Kong, they set up camps for civilians. Does anyone know of nonfiction literature I could read re the conditions, how the people fared, how the children were taken care of, etc.? Was there abuse of the people there? And how many of these camps existed; how much of the population was interred, and WHY?
thank you,

Cody

[taijiquan_student]

One of the big reason's for tension between chinese and japanese is the Rape of Nanjing. Read up on it. It was terrible.

[Shaolindynasty]

Well that's like saying that we should forever turn our backs on and never share anything with- Germany, Russia, Japan, England, Mexico, Most of the middle east, Veitnam, Korea and probally a whole lot of others. War is politacal and not every person of a particular origin will fault another just because he happens to be of the other orign. If all Chinese did that NO westerner would ever even know kungfu exsited or anything else their culture had to offer. Racism for any reason isn't right.

[red5angel]

Not to mention The brits, Egypt, ancient Rome, America, most of Africa and South america at one point or another.......

[Ray Pina]

Not saying it is right -- war is war -- but that I could understand.

I actually have feelings for the Japanese. My first style and longest practiced was Isshin-Ryu: an Okinawan system. I was literally raised on that system.

I love the Katana. I like sushi. I like Japanese poetry. Japanese painting. Interetsting though, the Haiku was first devloped in China, as was the painting form and even the Bonzai. Funnyhow history has come to think of Japan as the inventor of these things.

As for rasicm or ideologies, they tend to pass from generation to generation. Hitler youths are still alive today, and are parents and grandparents. There is still quite a strong ant-simetic and anti-black movemnt in Germany, as well as elsewhere in Europe and even here in the US. Its up to us, the next generation to break this cycle of ignorance.

I quote Bob MArley who quoted Salasi: "Until a man's skin is of no more significance then the color of his eyes -- war."

One interesting point the special made, is that the poeple involved in these experiments (they tested biological weapons on civilians) evolved to become the Yakuza after the war and that they still have a strong following. I'm just repeating what the spewcial said.

I have ZERO problems with anyone. I try not to judge people. Seems that way here but here we are talking technique, and that must be judged if its going to progress. I let people reveal who they are for themselves. Usually takes about 10 minutes.

It was just a very sad thing to see last night. They said 20,000,000 chinese died during WWII.

[Daredevil]

Yeah, the relationship of Japan and China is remarkably similar to the one shared by Ancient Rome and Greece. Two very effective society, using the culture of a neighbour to great advantage. The culture is created in the other country, then maximized in the other.

Something similar has been happening between Europe and America, too. An interesting phenomena.

[Stranger]

If you add up every Japanese soldier that stepped foot in China during WWII (whether a participant in Unit 731, The Rape of Nanking, or neither event), I'd imagine that you are talking about a statistically small portion of the total population of Japan at that time. And for that crime of a "few", you would write off an entire nation? Don't say the other citizens of Japan knew because that was simply not the case. Japan did not invent the concept of "total war" in Asia, nor were they the last to practice it. What about what Chinese have done to their own people in the name of war in the last century? No doubt, the Japanese soldiers involved in the atrocities of WWII are a stigma hanging over their people, but I think the "demonization" of Japan is a very selective way of looking at the events of the day.

[Mister Hansome]

Like what they said, you can't blame an entire nation for what a few did. It's like blaming all of america for the women they raped on their allies side in vietnam when they were supposed to be protecting them. It's like blaming Muslims for what Osama Bin Laden and his Al Quada did. Plus the chinese aren't the most innocent of the bunch either, you can't demand justice when you yourself don't deliver it. Look at Tibet, hundreds of thousands of them died in one day, all done by the chinese. The chinese past wasn't nice either, attacking vietnam countless times and warring 20 times in total in 2000 years. During their Ming Dynasties rule they applied a brutal dominion on former Dai Ngu(vietnam) by gathering all valuables, harsh rulings, raping women while killing men and castrating boys in an attempt to assimilate Vietnamese to Chinese.

And plus, you can't say a japanese person don't have the full knowledge contained in a practice. That conflict wasn't long ago and a chinese person could have taught a japanese student long ago before that conflict. It could be that the teacher, being a teacher, saw the potential of a student and taught him the art, not caring what nation he really came from.

[Tien Long]

I don't like this hate that has been circulating around between the Chinese and Japanese, since it does affect me. In fact, its doubly worse for me, since I have a Filipino mother, and the Phillippines were treated terribly during the war. My mom tells me stories of how my grandfather and his family had to run into the mountains to avoid the bombing raids, and my dad tells me stories of how the Japanese raped Chinese women and used CHinese men for bayonet practice. Its funny too, since they never lived during the war. It was spread from their parents to them, and I can start feeling it come to me. I have Japanese friends, and love Japanese culture, but I still feel an unease. My parents aren't that hateful or vengeful, but I cringe whenever my mom uses the term "Japs." I want to forget, but. knowing what I know now, I can't.

[prana]

I think there are 2 "main" divisions

1. People who have not been through the experience, or are watching from afar
2. People who have watched their families and friends killed, or have been tortured of affected

And of latter, there are 3 "main" kinds.

1. One whom forever hated the Japs
2. One whom want nothing associated with the Japs, including revenge
3. Ones who have moved on..

Speaking to people from my home country, I can watch their fear and terror. Babies thrown high up into the air, landing on the knifes at the end of Japanese rifles. Entire families killed because one member is hiding information from the Japanese. Children gang-raped, beaten and dumped.

I only count myself fortunate, I am of the first group, the ignorant. For those who are still suffering, what pain it must have been, to watch your loved ones tortured, raped and killed.

________________________________________

war sucks, wether it is Japanese towards the other Asian nations. But I have something against China too... Mao is the greatest low life.

EDIT: I do not know how he does it, the Dalai Lama, the numerous Rinponches, who effortlessly teach their most precious gifts to the Chinese, even after losing their home, their people killed and their land littered. For me, these are examples of truly enlightened beings. I admit, I cannot do it ... at least, not yet.

[Yung Apprentice]

From what I've read and have been told, babies were used for bayonet practice.

[LEGEND]

TIME will heal all wounds.

[King T]

Stranger, there is a difference between assimilation and annihilation. The Japanese were after annihilation and not asshimilation. That is the atrocities suffered by all of Asia. In fact if you add up the dead toll of the Chinese killed by the Japanese, it is about twice of that of the Jewish population killed by Hitler, and we all know what Hiter's Third Reich did. This does not include those killed in the other parts of Asia. Even in the present, the Japanese has not yet openly admited to the atrocities they had undertaken during WWII, like the rape of Nanking or testing of chemical and biological warfare there. They are the ONLY nation from the axis power today that has not apoligized to the Chinese or the rest of Asia for their atrocities. This testifies that even the current generation still rejects or denies any crimes committed. Sick. In fact, Japan's current history education program, removes most of Japan's "shady" involvment in China and East Asia. Now they are trying to alter history books? Sick. How can the Chinese or East Asian people forget and forgive if something like this today still persist. Sure, China's suppression of religious freedom is cruel today, but they don't go in killing an entire family or annihilate an entire group of people for " experiment" or what they called a "cure" for the " Sick Man of Asia". China's involvement in Vietnam during the Ming dynasty is far different than that of the Japanese. The Chinese crimes were in many cases isolated incidents, involving corrupt generals and local governors-spoils of war, that were not supported or promoted by the Ming court, unlike the Japanese during WWII, which were supported and promoted by it's government.

[red_fists]

One thing that alwasy amazes me is when People misquote historical facts.

"Hitler killed 11 Mill. People in his Concentration & Death Camps not 6 Mill Jews."
The rest were gays, political prisoners and other People that spoke out/fought against the regime.

FWIW, it has been confirmed that Turkey killed more Jews than Hitler did.
About 7 Mill.!

In case most of you didn't know Concentration Camps are a British invention. ;)

My own Grandfather was in a Russian ConentratonCmap for nearly 3 yrs, the same things happened there.

In War all sides do the same horrible things.

We no return you to your scheduled programming.

[PaleDragon]

We've been known to re write/candy coat the old history books too...it's just more widely accepted that we've done it and now are trying to undo it. What nation can look back without any disgraces? not trying to defend evil doings by any country, but...i don't think anyone should be casting stones in the present.

[red_fists]

PaleDragon.

Nobody is casting stones.

I was simply quoting the History Books from Austria, unfortunately we can't rewrite or sugar-coat our own History.

Nor are we interested in doing so.

:D :D

[LEGEND]

War is war...Genghis Khan and his hordes supposely killed 20 million chinese...when they took over northern china. **** HAPPENs...yet the chinese don't think about it anymore. Even with the JAPANESE...eventually they'll forget...maybe a 50 more years...maybe a 100 years...but they'll forget and move on.

[red_fists]

Hi Legend.

I don't think anything should be forgotten, but needs to be recorded as an example of what can happen under certain circumstances.

After an historical Event happens, lifes moves on regardless of what type of Event it was.
But we as Humans have to learn to let go of past Events, rather than taking them with us into the Future and letting them affect our lives.

We live now and how we live now decides our future.

Just some personal observations.
And most probably totally useless.

[dubj]

Almost every government has committed horrible acts including our own. Everyone should know about our concentration camps. They weren't as bad but I wouldn't want to be there. Also the reason the Japanese haven't apologized formally or paid for thier war crimes of experiments and torture I have read because the US made a deal that the Japanese would have to hand over all information gained for a pardon. That is why most people have never heard of this.

[LEGEND]

REDFIST agreed.

Hell one day I will forgive my ex gf for cheating on me 2 years ago...but for now...I hope she gets torture to death by the most horrific serial killer ever...plus her spirit will forever be trapped in a house...plus her pics be posted on www.rotten.com...etc...but one day...I'll let it go!

[Stranger]

King T,

Japan does not apologize because the warcrimes were the result of a small clique of firebrands, and not all of Japanese society. I didn't rely on revisionist textbooks to learn this, I actualy have read hundreds of newspaper articles, political speeches and government documents from Japan, China, and the US during this time.

he Japanese never formed a "Final Solution" to deal with the Chinese, so comparing what happened in China to what happened in the NAZI camps will produce as many differences as similarities. There was a different political motivation. Even the Japanese firebrands did not want to "annihilate" the Chinese in a case of ethnic cleansing.

"Total War" and "ethnic cleansing" are two different things. They are both ugly and inflict numerous casualties, yet they remain distinctly different.

LEGEND is right, the greatest example of genocide in the world was the Mongol extermination of the Chinese. In time that hatred faded.

[friday]

all these comparisons etc, but the chinese do this and the watever did that .....its a war its all ok!!!
make me sick
none of this stuff anyone is telling me makes any of the crap that was done right.

[Sho]

King T, you seem to be somekind of a racist from what I have understood. You don't understand that not all Japanese people were/are like that. Personally I definitely think that the terrible acts that occurred during the conflicts with China were injust. Once more, it happened during a war and most of the soldiers weren't too happy about their life anyway and what's more they had pressure from their uppers. Same in the Vietnam war, I don't think that Americans were too gentle there either. You simply cannot say that all people in this country are this and that.

[Ray Pina]

For the record, believe me, few here understand that a government's actions does not necessarily represent the feelings of its people: I am strongly against many US policies.

I was just kicking up a conversation.

I am also wise enough to understand that people harbor feelings ... and that I could UNDERSTAND why some Chinese would feel uncomfortbale sharing some higher level fighting knowledge with the Japanese.

Anyone study karate here before chinese martial arts? I have. The more I learn the more I realise the Japanese have greatly misinterpreted a lot of info. The movements in some cases are the same, the understanding and use completely different.

To me it looks as if the karateka were almost watching Chinese martial arts from a far, will bad binaculars, taking in gross movements but missing all the subtle detail. Of perhaps they were just taught this way.

[Kuen]

The Japanese could go a long way by issuing a formal apology but instead they chose to make even the mention of the "Rape of Nanking" a crime. Testing bubonic plague bombs, ripping fetuses out of the womb, raping children...quite horrible really. There is a book out with eyewitness testimony from the event right now. One thing that caught my eye was the fact that the carnage was so horrible that the Gestapho operatives in China tried to stop the massacre. The Chinese will pay them back someday, unfortunately.

[Yung Apprentice]

Yeah I've read somewhere about that too. That the Nazis thought the Japanese (military) were too brutal. I've also heard stories about the Japanese (military) forced Korean women to be prostitutes for their soldiers. But as a side note, the acts commited by the military should not reflect on the society. Remember every government has done things in the past or currently doing them, that many will frown upon. Heck the United States dropped two big bombs on Japan killing many innocent people. Although this in no way justifies what the Japanese did to the Chinese, I'm just pointing out every government has had their fair share of black eyes.

[Sho]

Yung Apprentice sums it up right there.

[patriot]

The most documented Japanese atrocities in China was the Nanking massacre where 300,000 people were killed and over 20,000 women were raped:

http://museums.cnd.org/njmassacre/

There were many eye-witness accounts from foreign missionaries and diplomats.

[GLW]

Forgive...yes....

But remember.


The old "Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them"

The first step of learning from them is to remember them.

On ANY 12 step or other recovery program, the first step is admission...and one of the steps is to make amends.

This part is where governments screw up. The US owes some apologies...as do many other countries. The fact that everyone owes them does NOT excuse the fact that they have not done it. It just means we all have a lot of company in the jerks of the world category.

[LEGEND]

I studied ww2 but one thing that shocks me is with that amount of people and the basically Japanese military...why wasn't CHINA more effective in the war??? I know CHIANG KIA CHEK held back arms cause he wanted to kill MAO's forces...but ****...

[Mister Hansome]

Well when the chinese castrated boys and killed men they were trying to disable the reproductive cycle of the vietnamese. This also combined with raping will create a society of chinese in blood, the emperors orders were actually to castrate all boy and killed all men. They were also allowed to rape if need be. This was by the order of the last Ming Emperor in an attempt to assimilate the vietnamese people to chinese, but luckily for the vietnamese the chinese failed and were driven back 2 decades later. This involved the courts of the Ming, not just ruthless generals and greedy merchants, but I am not saying the chinese are all bad, i know that that last emperor wasn't very bright. Hey they lost vietnamese land when the vietnamese were clearly outnumbered when, if guided correctly, they could have conquered anybody. This guy was the same guy that suicided i think, i would have atleast survived so I can lead an uprising.

Just straightening things out.

PEACE