Attention EAZ

[fiercest tiger]

I was wondering what you think about the ging related to 5 animals. what type of ging is produced for each animal???

any thoughts here!:)

[EAZ]

There are many different applications of 5 aniamls theory. After all it is just a mental construct. I hope the angle described below is what you thinking of (I am not discussing 5 parts of body = 5 animals etc.):

A strike can be loosely categorised into one of 5 animals. Each animal has principle of power generation. Power generation in a strike is divided into three successive steps:
- point of departure of strike
- trajectory or travel to target
- impact

Each animal principle deals with this differently.

It is also possible to combine appropriate footwork (also loosely categorised into 5 types of feet movement) and combine with strike.

When foot and hand combined properly, you generate a certain type of power: smashing, penetrating, push/pulling, elastic, etc...

There are an infinite combination of these possible of course, but to start, we arbitrarely categorise strikes into these 5 categories. The key to power generation in combat is that energy of one strike (nothing esoteric here, at least for the start) must be transformed into another, thus relating to concept of alternating between Ying and Yang.

Pei Mei emphesises tiger and leopard, ALTHOUGH ALL 5 MUST BE LEARNT (in our school). Tiger step and leopard step are the basic moves practiced in every Pak Mei school worldwide that I have visited (at least they have that in common !).

It is the belief of our lineage that TTFT, while a CENTRAL element of Pei Mei training is not the only "Ging" principle of power generation. However it is intimately linked to above comments.

How's that FT?

[Lau]

Hi,
Although I read threads about 5 elements and the 5 animals and their relation to each other with great interest, I can't stop wondering if Pak Mei is really that complicated. In my opinion every move is some sort of variation on the float, sink, swallow and spit principles. (Although there obviously are some more important points to keep in mind at all times) With this I want to stress the importance of hard work and lots of repetitions of the straight step punch form. If I feel I need to improve some move, mostly I can trace the principle back to the straight step punch form. And than it's back to basics for me.

Do you really feel all these complicated theories are to be understood before someone his Pak Mei can be good? Shouldn't a martial art be as simple and efficient as possible? Do we need more principles for power generation than FCTT?

Regards, Lau

[EAZ]

(Are you the "traveling Lau" ? Nice to meet your fellow training brothers the other weekend. I hope a mutually beneficial experience.)


I do not think that this 5 animal or element theory is really necessary to understand Pak Mei, so I agree with you there. Any theory for that matter including TTFC cannot be too theoretical either !

I learnt this element/animal theory by experimentation and not in a classroom, and had it confirmed to me when I ask. Same with TTFC. I talk a lot about it because I cannot practice as often as I want to so in my free time, riding the bus etc. I try and work through the theory - but there is no talking in class, just direct understanding of things as they are (incredibly dificult), so no room for intellectual faculties.

HOWEVER, I msut say that it is my understanding that:
Southern martial arts have a foundation, a common overarching theoretical basis, kind of like a dictionary and grammar book in one, which allows you to pronouce words correctly and construct sentences. The writting style is the kung fu style PM, SPm etc.... Learning style before basic grammar makes for ultimately broken sentences.

As our goal is too attain a greater understanding of the Self and its relation with the Other, writing our own novel of sorts, you've gotto know the dictionaly to have a large vocabulary and proper grammar.

Pei Mei will teach you how to write 12 meter rymes etc, but if your vocabulary is limited to "See spot run"" then one way or another your beautiful Pei Mei rymes will be lacking, ALTHOUGH you will be able to write faster than the guy learning how to use the dictionary and grammar. But your book will be of poor quality.

Hence TTFC, while central to PM and integrated apparently in other MA (don't know much about this just seems like SPM and others have something like it) is NOT the dictionary. It is only style of writting.

Not the view of many Pak Mei schools however.

Really just my view of course.

[EAZ]

Originally posted by sui-fuw
does the sculpture keeps adding clay...................?

I assume you are refering to me....

Yup, just adding clay, piles of it.

At this moment, I would much prefer to be practicing instead of being on this forum. This way i would really progress instead of just exchanging mental backwash at worse, or often fruitless theoretical discussions at best !

Mais c'est la vie !!

[Lau]

Hi EAZ,
Nice to hear that you had a good meeting with my senior brothers. It's a pity that I didn't have the chance to meet you.

Now let me try to add somthing to this fruitless theoretical discussion. You see pak mei as making scentences. I look at if from a different perspective but possibly we mean the same. I don't see Pak Mei as a 1000 words to make poems. I see it as a sequence where one has to learn how to crawl before one can walk and one has to learn how to walk before one can run. It's building brick upon brick on a foundation called Chi Pu Ken (straight step punch) It's more and more variations building on the same principles.

The 5 animals poem regarding to pak mei is a methafore to me. It is telling that a part of pak mei cannot be taught by a Sifu. It is not about the 5 animals being actually represented in Pak Mei. In my opinion most moves cannot be categorized into the animals. You talk about Tiger step and leopard step. But some call it triangular footwork or unicorn steps. To me they are not based on animals but on Pak Mei theory. Practical and a stong stance to support pak mei power generation. Why should all moves be categorized into the different animals?

The 5 animals theory tells that one can only learn a part from ones Sifu. But for the rest you'll need to practice your whole life. Then you'll feel how it should be done. Some things just can't be described in words. You'll just have to find the way yourselve. So when you visit other schools like you visited ours (I have never visited an other pak mei school, but perhaps in the future) you should ask yourselve, what is it that the do different? and then try to work it out for yourselve. See if it works for you.

Regards, Lau

[fiercest tiger]

by practising pak mei you are using and doing the 5 ANIMALS, if its internal or external aspects, fighting and healing methods.

[EAZ]

Lau,

It being of course easier to destroy than to build, I only wish to look at positive sides of exchange when I meet other schools. I do not spend my time visiting other schools just to try and take them apart. I do not no anything for sure regarding my training, what I was taught etc. I go by assumptions and try to "feel" my way through it all. As we all should I think we all agree.

So I am not in the least bit perturbed that things are different from me in Antwerp/Amsterdam. As I have said before, I have a finite amount of time to learn an infinite "non-thing".


Originally posted by fiercest tiger
by practising pak mei you are using and doing the 5 ANIMALS, if its internal or external aspects, fighting and healing methods.

That being, said, the goal of martial arts besides ripping someones entrails out is to experience through the body a rich and complex set of sensations leading to a direct understanding of "non-things" impermanence etc. Thus it is important that the full spectrum of types of sensation, from extreme yin to extreme yang are felt, even though a) each school specialises in a certain type of sensation b) individuals have their own tendency.

So I would agree with FT quote above, most 100%.

To be a bit more polemical, reducing Pak Mei to single principle of TTFC, is not most efficient manner of advancing.

[Lau]

Hi EAZ and Fiercest Tiger.

I hope I have not offended anyone here. Because that was never my intention. I was just saying how I thought things were.

But if you both tell me that the 5 animals are in the pak mei forms than perhaps I'm missing something. So I would like to understand what you mean if you say that by training pak mei you train the 5 animals.

Could you please, as an example for me, take a little piece of form and tell me what the internal and external animal parts are in the sequence? For instance in the spearhand , phoenix eye fist and monk takes of robe part of the nine step push form? I've practiced this piece for thousands of times. So please can you help me with this?

Regards, Lau (lalau88@hotmail.com)

[EAZ]

Lau,


You have to my knowledge offended noone.

VN lineage is the only lineage that has a 5 element/animals theory thrown in, so I am the one feeling "cold and lonely" when talking with or visiting other Pak Mei Schools, since everybody else doesn't really agree with my view of things. So I don't think you are missing anything at all, as your system of practice revolves around a different star than mine, to a certain extent (call them the double star of Pei Mei).

YKM, of which I know very little about, and FT, has never said (unless I missunderstand him) that he has 5 elements theory either, at least not in the manner I have described. So I do not think he would ascribe to being put into my camp. However, YKM DOES have a lot of things that make it criss-cross very closely with VN lineage Pei Mei from what I can see. This makes me feel good, and less "cold and lonely".

5 animals theory is no more central to my Pei Mei theory than is TTFC, or other key aspects of the style. It is however intimately linked to Chinese medecine (and Yi King etc), and since Chinese medicine is linked to martial arts and Chi Kung etc, and since my sifu, his sifu, his sifu's sifu etc all had clinics it has always seemed natural to me, until stepping onto this web group, that traditional "orthodox"martial arts must incorprate Asian medicine if they ascribe to the theory of "enlightenment" or the knowledge of life and death, through martial arts kung fu.

The question you ask is part of our training and is not information that is given in writting. It will not make sense to you anyways as it comes from a diffreent frame or reference, and thus false from your point of view (and rightly so).

The only example I give (oooh I know I'm going to confuse things with this but I choose on purpose): 9 step push (of Dragon), 18 frictions (of Snake). This is blindingly obvious from my fram eof reference! (I can hear you saying what the heck does Dragon have to do 9 step push I thought we were Tiger and Leopard and that 9 step push was the most characteristic form of the style, this guy's out to lunch)

Stating what I have said is tantamount to being excommunicated from HK Pak Mei community. And as I wish Pak Mei people to still talk to me, including mysterious Sui Few, I will not tarnish their opinions of me any further.

- BUT, I know that FT, even if only in part, agrees with what I am saying.

How's that for cryptic answer!

[fiercest tiger]

good morning!:)

9 step is from dragon lung ying made from 3 step push, so there is the dragon conection. sup baat mor does have alot of snake or buil jee strikes and continuous over and under the bridge hidden strikes so i can see the connection.

5 elements to me is more the attacking of the dim ma and dim yuet points on the body together with the 5 directions. i just gave you half an answer you can figure the rest out..lol hahaha sorry;)

so 5 elements is also related to TCM and accupunture, spirits, strengths and weaknesses of the 5 animals are added for movement, mindset, training methods etc and much much more!!

I believe pak mei or ykm can be indepth as the person wants it, some like to LIVE off a name instead of train or advance more in a system from studying something like TCM AND JUM GO!

[Yum Cha]

EAZ,
I envy your ability to visit our brothers across Europe and the UK. You have once again demonstrated an insight into the various families of Pak Mei, and I applaud you. As you know, we do not have the 5 animals either, but beneath that, we have the same applications, and forces, just viewed from a different angle. If you ever come down to OZ FT and I will certainly host you.

I am beginning to see a range of differences in the Pak Mei world, from the hard to the soft, more internal to more external. I suspect that at a senior level, they are closer than at a junior level, but I can't say for sure. Its probably due to the Sifu's own personality, rather than the Pak Mei itself.

Lau,
one thing I remember is to follow through on my training, follow my Sifu, be true to my lineage. But, it doesn't hurt to try to see things from others eyes, as long as you maintain your faith in your system and your sifu. Opening up your eyes to outside theories and other styles is a temptation. Depending on how you process it, it may improve you or it may dilute you. This is your challenge. Sometimes less is more.

It is my impression that the animals and elements are rooted in Chinese philosophical thought, and can be applied to many arts, traditional Chinese medicine and many personal endeavours. They have been applied to Pak Mei, and at a very senior level, nobody doubts this.

The internal aspect of Pak Mei is physical, not intellectual. At least that is my experience. When I finally got proficient at Gau Bo Twi, It was obvious that there was a "magic" in the pattern. I felt stronger at the end than the beginning, and there were a number of other physical "sensations" for lack of a better word. Sub Batt Mor Que was similar, but the physical "sensations" were of a different nature. Mam Fu likewise. The animal and elemental theories helped explain the "sensations" and lable them, but they came to me without the theory. Who knows perhaps I would have learned them sooner with the theories, then again, perhaps not.

Again, sometimes less is more.

Just to be clear, there is no disrespect intended to anybody, but as a practitioner of a certain type, I can only share my experience, the only offering I can be sure of. I still have so much to learn and I thank all of you for sharing your experiences. Together, hopefully we can provide each other with perspective, one of the cornerstones of understanding.

And, I am interested in learning about the Animals and Elements, because they slot into what I already know with an uncanny accuracy, and they are culturally rich and intellectually stimulating. Then again, maybe I'm just pre-disposed to understanding them...<sigh>.

[fiercest tiger]

No disrespect taken here also!

The problems i see in pak mei or ykm or guangzhou pak mei, vietnam pak mei is everyone says they are better or original etc.

Only the practioner makes it better, as for original all you need to know is the pak mei reciept, if you havent got it in the system then you are missing the main ingredients if not then you should do TTFC like everyone else although your TTFC may look different to mine due to body shapes and abilities.

hope this helps

FT:)

[Ao Qin]

Hi Eaz (et al),

Of course, Gow Bo Toy = Dragon. However, I disagree with FT about the orgin. I can't see where this form might have originated from within Lam Yiu Kwai's LYP. Dragon has always been the fundamental internal method to balance the other four. Siu Lum Dragon is always represented as such in many Southern Arts (e.g. Hung Gar Iron Wire / Breathing sequence in Foo Hok, Wing Chun's Siu Lum Tao, etc.) Dragon has always been represented as the highest level, internal "polish" to any external style. Dragon (metaphorically) represents self-actualized human potential - pure and simple - not hard to see if you do the research / compare and contrast, etc.

Sap Baat Mor-Kiew could easily be seen as heavily influenced by softer snake technique. Keep in mind that the Snake and Dragon are virtually the same symbolically in the orgin of that time (Naga).

Jek Bo? Use your imagination - maybe tiger, some snake.

Sup Ji? / Stone Lion? You tell me!

Gypsy / Wanderers Style?

Lee Ga?

"Dragon" Style?

Also, some older Hakka systems, when coming from the North, developed specific forms and techniques to combat the techniques used by the Southern Five Animals. One specific form within Dragon Style, for one example.

Just food for thought - it may be inedible though, even I don't believe a word I say.

Cheers!

[fiercest tiger]

Is this kevin?

anyways i have an old real kung fu mag saying this form is from saam bou tau(sp) this whole article is on lung ying southern dragon.

Just to clear up any confusion where i go it from!

cya
FT

[Lau]

Hi everybody,

Nice to see more people joining. You've got me logging in almost every day in my vacation. Good that Thailand has so many email cafe's! But there is too much in the thread now to reply to everything at this moment. I'll have to read it a few more times to try to understand it.

Yam Cha, what you write relates a lot to my training. Practice and practice and practice, until the feeling comes. The internal part is still very difficult to me. But every now and then my hands will get really warm after performing nine step push. And they will tintle. But this sensation doesn't come every time. Are there special points where you focus on to get these sentations? Or is it just practice more?

Regards, Lau

[EAZ]

Originally posted by fiercest tiger
Only the practioner makes it better, as for original all you need to know is the pak mei reciept, if you havent got it in the system then you are missing the main ingredients if not then you should do TTFC like everyone else although your TTFC may look different to mine due to body shapes and abilities.
FT:)

(By the way this thread is most civil and "tingling" as Lau would say!)

I do not want to start a great (useless) philosophical arguement, but:
-recepe is important; gotta have the basic Pei Mei ingredients.
-but if you do not have overarching system inwhich to place this recepe, you will will in essence being trying to make an soufflé on a street curb instead of int he kitchen.
- you've gotta have the whole contexte. If all you have is TTFC, well I think you are not trying to be a chef.

What are we aiming for here?

("Cooking Kung Fu by EAZ" read the book)

[Lau]

Hi EAZ, FT and Kevin (how are you, everything well in Winnipeg?)

Thanks for your opinions on the dragon / nine step push connection. Although I still have problems seeing this in the form, after seeing the excellent dragon gala in HK on video, I must believe you that there is a connection. Especially a form called (Kevin, am I correct?) fierce tiger jumping the fence had a lot in common with the nine step push. The form started with left biu tse / right punch 3 times in a row. Later in the form I thought I saw the monk takes of robes technique.

Do you feel that the connection between dragon and the nine step push form stresses the importance of the internal training in the nine step push form?

Fiercest Tiger, Could you scan this article and sent it through email? This discussion is reviving my old interest into Pak Mei History!

Regards, Lau

[EAZ]

Why do you think the form is called 9 step PUSH?
Why push?
Why not 9 step TTFC?
or 9 step frictions?
or 9 step coming out of the forest?
or just 9 steps?

By my understanding, PUSH = Dragon. Extreme yang; whole body with strong waist/shoulder movement as well as shuffle on ground brings maximum pushing power to bear on opponent.

"cold and lonely" clay-born EAZ.

Can someone give a better reason? (besides historical reason which does not contradict of FT that I was told as well in VN -thanks again FT for existing- although not in as much detail at FT seems to know).

[fiercest tiger]

disagree for the recipe? i used TTFC as an example there are plenty more in the recipe this was just one that most know of!!:)

i can get a video of lam yui gwai doing 9 step push off a friend if he lets me:( so he tells me he has it!!

lau
how about a swap of the dragon forms from t.v and ill scan in dragon article and lung ying mor kuil form and 16 movements and a pak mei jik bo kuen form.

:D

Eaz

do you really think it was intended to push? or a hidden name?:confused:

[Shaolin Master]

Tun Tou Chueng -> Bo Bo Toi and Sam Jin
Bo Bo Toi -> Sam Bo Toi
Sam Bo Toi -> Sup Lok Dong & Gau Bo Toi
Gau Bo Toi also named Lok Geng Gau Bo Toi.

Sam Bo Bo Toi jiou hai Gau Bo Toi.

Old school :
Meng Fu Tiu Cheung (Sect 1) Ha San (Sect 2) Chut Lum (Sect 3).

LYG has favorite part, CLC has favorite, then there is the other which some kept and some did not know.

[Yum Cha]

OK, now I'm gonna be the odd man out. I'm not sold yet that Gau Bo Twi came from Dragon. I'm not sold that Dragon Style is about the "dragon" animal from Sui Lum Animal theory. We have issues of Taoist versus Buddhist philosophy here. I don't know, but I have yet to have a plausable explanation based upon what I do know.

CLC and Lam Yeu Gwai were cousins, trying their luck across Guangzhou (5 rivers area or somesuch?). They learned their Kung Fu together, and shared much of what they learned. CLC was tall and thin. LYG was short and thick. I think this is pretty important.

Supposedly, CLC learned Gau Bo Twi at the temple, naturally he would have shared this with his training brother and cousing LYG? Or, perhaps, as Shaolin Master indicated, it was a common exercise, and was modified and developed as a container to hold the essence of Pak Mei as learned by CLC at the temple. There is no doubt that it is common to both styles, more or less, but I think each has a different interpretation, a different spirit.

As for push, to me, push it is. Bik Bo. 9 step is 3 by 3.

[mantis108]

Guo Bo Tyui is so named because of the footwork pattern. Look at the form from an ariel view, you will see the Chinese character nine. This is similar in concept with the Kung ji Fook Fu Kuen which the footwork pattern resembles the Chinese character "Kung" (work). It would seem the Sarm Bo Tyui has also influence the formulation of the form. That would be the opening moves which is found in the jik bo as well. Of course, there's TTFC which is essential to Bak Mei.

Mantis108

[fiercest tiger]

howdy,

nice breakdown, i was interested in your mung fu section as did the mung fu chut lum come last out of the old sessions?

If so, why is this an advance bak mei form and what, why was it made for? serious question here, not trying to catch you or anyone out!! :)


Thanks in advance

FT

Did u have a good new years?:)

[Yum Cha]

Originally posted by Shaolin Master
Tun Tou Chueng -> Bo Bo Toi and Sam Jin
Bo Bo Toi -> Sam Bo Toi
Sam Bo Toi -> Sup Lok Dong & Gau Bo Toi
Gau Bo Toi also named Lok Geng Gau Bo Toi.

Sam Bo Bo Toi jiou hai Gau Bo Toi.



What "styles" are these contained within? Is it old and new Pak Mei and Lung Ying, or is it "hakka", or?

[fiercest tiger]

TTFC isnt hakka anyways!

is pak mei hakka?:)

[EAZ]

I clearly do not have the historical references contribute to this conversation, but it is soo interesting. All I was told from a historical perspective is that there is a link between 9 step push and Dragon style. But many of you seem to have a better grab on things.

I am not convinced however of aerial view of character 9 (although great theory). I know the way I do 9 step is similar in terms of ground movement to HK schools. So I feel confident in saying that the 9 character barely resembles footwrok, barring a dose of imagination.

Basically you go North, then East (or SE in Vietnam) then pivot to west and go forward West, then pivot North again and o forward, then the double hands move Southwards, then pivot West.

This does not ressemble 9. Can you please light my lantern? What am I not understanding here?



Originally posted by Shaolin Master
Tun Tou Chueng -> Bo Bo Toi and Sam Jin
Bo Bo Toi -> Sam Bo Toi
Sam Bo Toi -> Sup Lok Dong & Gau Bo Toi
Gau Bo Toi also named Lok Geng Gau Bo Toi.

Sam Bo Bo Toi jiou hai Gau Bo Toi.

Old school :
Meng Fu Tiu Cheung (Sect 1) Ha San (Sect 2) Chut Lum (Sect 3).

LYG has favorite part, CLC has favorite, then there is the other which some kept and some did not know.

Very interesting. 3 versions of Meng Fu... for differnet reasons.

What does the Chinese text mean, if you mind translating?