Why learn to fight on the ground.

[KnightSabre]

I replied to the ground game thread but thought this thread should be made seperately.

My instructor Rodney King was a standup fighter long before he started grappling,he has real good boxing skills.If you go to Matt Thorntons web site straightblastgym.com you will see Matt says that Rodney has the best hands he has ever seen in the JKD community.

However Rodney went and trained with the Machados (he now has a purple belt in BJJ) and quickly found out how innefective he was on the ground even though he was such a good striker.

If someone with Rodneys striking ability,is blown away with BJJ's ground techniques and then trains it,what should the average striker be doing?

Rodney will also be bringing out a tape series (specifically striking for NHB and the street) under Matts Straighblastgym video series.You can go to the mixed martial arts forum and look at either the JKD or Africa forum for more info on this.

[respectmankind]

several things. first, i said war, huuu, good god ya all, what is it good for? absolutely nothin! second, if the average striker intends on being a good mixed ring fighter, then he should train for what he will need. third, if you train in ma, but know that teeth in the throat is more effective than any armbar, and you only fight when it actually matters (life in danger) then you do what you want.

[Paul]

what should the average striker be doing?

whatever the hells they wants to be doin' thats what.

[Merryprankster]

One might ask how you expect to get teeth to the throat when you are being positionally dominated on the ground...

Look...

Here's grappling in a nutshell:

1. When attacking, eliminate space by shutting down your opponent's movement by pressure and/or balance disruption as the situation dictates.

2. When defending/escaping, create space to move by pressure and/or balance disruption as the situation dictates.

This is what we do. This is what it's all about.

If I am controlling your body movements in a position of dominance, offensive movements of any kind will be severely limited. You might get lucky with a "trick," , but why get lucky if you could be good at getting up and leaving in accordance with sound groundwork principles?

Do I advocate guard passing? Not for a fight. But you'd better learn how to break guard and defend open guard so you can disengage, kick available targets and leave. Otherwise, you're a sitting duck.

I have seen ridiculous posts before about biting to defend the armbar, triangle, knee strikes to the tailbone to handle the guard position, and eye gouges from inferior, non controlling positions. Try those defenses in a fight, and I will wager that 9 times out of 10, you will be finding out what an ineffective defense it is to having your joints broken or passing out.

[respectmankind]

first off, drop the mentality that a street fight has rules, you may already know this, but limiting someone to not doing what they can't in teh ring because of rules in f****** stupid. no offense, but a ring fight has rules. one might bring up teh arguement, how are you going to put me in a position if you have lost your eye site of some unfortunate accident happened to your throat. making up scenerios is stupid and pointless unless there are exact rules in a fight.

[Merryprankster]

How are you going to reach my eyes and throat if I have you mounted? Never mind that I'll break your arm for you if you try.

How are you going to reach my eyes and throat if I am raining knees to your head from side mount or north/south?

Or were you planning on removing my sight while I'm shooting in with an eye strike, and biting my throat on the way down? Never mind that it's hard enough to hit somebody with a knee, elbow or punch while they are moving like that.

I'm not arguing that the grappling escapes from grappling moves are the only way to go... however, what you are describing is "low percentage," at best, and at worst, I'll beat you harder.

Also, as a side note, I don't have to see to grapple once contact is made.

[respectmankind]

exactly, finaly, someone has realised i am brilliant. aliens are bad mother shut your mouth's

[Merryprankster]

Did you get access to your unit's coffee again, or what?

[Merryprankster]

Braden,

You don't really defend. You escape :) Or attempt to maintain you position :)

[Merryprankster]

Aliens would be no match for BJJ. I'd just tail-bar the guy....

[respectmankind]

liek i said, sceneris are gay, what make you think you will get me in a mount. unless we want each others blood, and we decided to make each other bleed, we will not know if you put me in a mount, thus my eye jabs become usless. also, the eye jab and biting thing was supposed to be an example i do not think you have gathered that. it was ment to convey the thought that in a ring, where most people learn (sparring/practice is what is ment by this) there are rules. in an acctual fight, limiting yourself to rules, even if they become that indirecly is gay gay gay. if i am mounted, there are more gays i can handle that, which are not allowed in the ring.

[respectmankind]

atleast we all agree that aliens defeat h2h combat. :). but what about pedators :0?

[Merryprankster]

I have no problem understanding that.

Where I have the issue is this: There is a right way and a wrong way to move on the ground. Wrestling, BJJ, Sambo, Naban, etc... all of these teach you how to move down there. It's principle based, just like striking... you might call "x" strike something different in two different styles, but generally speaking, the tend to follow the same sorts of principles. Most styles have something akin to a thai roundkick and the thai teep. They might call it something different, have a different philosophy on it, etc, but the execution is likely to be similar.

Good ground principles are good ground principles. Not knowing them and making crap up on the fly can get you injured or killed against somebody who DOES know them.

[respectmankind]

i eat geese for thanksgiving

[respectmankind]

i respectfully disagree and agree. learning them, yes can and does help. i personally started grappling recently and feel it is as or in some cases more effective than striking. and it might just be me, and in my experience, when fighting a grappler or striker, when i made **** up on teh fly, but stuck to common sense at the same time, and did not abandon my skill/knowledge/calmness, i would win.

[respectmankind]

one time, a challenger was putting me in a arm bar, and i 'accidentaly' broke his nose with my palm.

[LEGEND]

one time someone try to bite me when I armbarred him...got ****ed and armbarred him harder till he screamed. I would have broke his arm if it wasn't for his scream. Afterward, I told him if he ever did that( a newbie who never returned ) while training again I would fight him in the street. I don't get PAID for teaching...it's purely volunteer stuff. U take it to the next level so will I.

[respectmankind]

Legend, do not take my opinion personal. Taking i to teh next level is not ment for sparring as well (unless both agree what that levels limits are and want to do it). In sparring and training, you stick to technique, but in my opinion technique while although is important in a real fight, it is not even close to all. Yet it may be enough, depends on who you are fighting, and if you have the detachment to acts that may kill someone.

[Merryprankster]

And you can still fight with a broken nose... a broken arm... now that's something else again :)

But that's neither here nor there, of course--as you pointed out, it's a scenario issue.

Legend--exactly my point. Bite me and I'll just fu(k you up.

Braden--I respect strikers, I just think there is a time and place for certain things. I wouldn't counter attack while mounted. The amount of damage I would do would be minimal while the gaps I'd leave open for submission, and the amount of damage the OTHER guy could do would be a lot more. I'd work on keeping the damage to a minimum while I got out.

Lastly--if you are using good principles while manuevering, then you aren't "making crap up." You're fighting in accordance with good principles. Just because I try a new way to get to a submission I like, even if I've never seen it, isn't making crap up if I do it with the principles in mind. I mean, let's say that you notice every time you throw a low kick the hands come down. Well, you'd probably feint a low kick then enter and throw some leather on the face, even if you've never observed it before.

However, just trying to bite the guy out of desperation, or elbowing the top of somebody's skull or turning to your stomach and trying to play with some guy's foot... that's pretty useless, unless the other guy is equally clueless.

[Merryprankster]

You're asking the wrong guy. I don't bait people with submissions. The only thing I ever bait people with is space (Ah, I feel less pressure here, I'll go that w.... hey, how the hell did I wind up on my back?!)

[LEGEND]

Respectmankind...u took it the wrong way...I feel that eye gouges, tears and biting are not FINISHING moves...the problem with CMA guys is that to counter a FINISHING( ex: armbar ) attempt by a foe they would say I would "gouge, tear or bite"...u cannot do this. BITING will give u spacing...but it does not release holds that are locked! In fact biting, gouging and tearing motions I feel are low percentage unless u have them immobilize or have u're friends help immobilize the foe. Where he cannot retailiate effectively. In fact...especially the foes out there should have a low tolerance level of pain but high on liquid courage.

[Merryprankster]

Actually braden, that's pretty close to correct. There's a lot of escaping from bad places done by using the elbow to create an initial wedge followed up by pressure with the hands once the opponent is too offbalance to create risk of submission or improving position.

What Legend said, by the way.

And as far as Aliens and the Predator go:

I predict Rickson by armbar, 2:38.

[Merryprankster]

Eh, don't get too down on the place.

And that's Rickson in 2:38, minute wise, not hourwise. :)

[Kaitain(UK)]

Why does this always degenerate into ground vs stand-up? (*having just read my post I see the irony of this statement but I'll leave it in for humour's sake*)

I don't train for the ground - in the scenarios I've been in and train for:

- I've never been taken to the floor
- I either walked away without violence or
- I won a violent confrontation and walked away or
- I got knocked decked and stamped on and they walked away

The confrontations have all involved a mix of grappling and striking - I resent the implication that all grappling is ground-based.

I also know from bitter experience that you don't put something like an armbar on and try and subdue someone - that isn't real world and if you think you can do that then you're going to end up very hurt sometime. Locks are what I train - if I have to use it 'live' then it goes straight to breaking/dislocation/choking.

I've been kicked square in the nuts in a fight and I didn't feel it - fact is only serious debilitating injury will stop someone who is fighting - i.e. knock-out/choke-out/disabling moves. Scratching someone's face looks bad afterwards but has no effect at the time. You won't hit someone's eyes in a hundred attempts in a fight - you're more likely to have your fingers bitten off. Good grappling and striking are the safest combination in a confrontation - if both are not trained then you are severely limiting your chances.

However - I don't believe that argument extends to ground work. If I fight someone who is a trained ground fighter then I can't afford to go to ground anyway - my training will never be as solid as theirs. My main danger is someone shooting in on me as I don't train to deal with that (I don't view it as a likely scenario) - but as someone said on another thread it's more likely to go to a clinch. The clinch is where the bulk of my training works so I'm not concerned at that range - and I'm better there than on the floor.

Something I'd like to ask Merry and co - do you train to deal with the 'unsporting' methods in the clinch? Obviously on the floor it is easier to immobilise someone and avoid the range of weapons - but if you're in a clinch against someone who isn't easily going to be taken down are you confident you can cope against the full range of no-rules strikes? (headbutts/elbows to throat /tearing/rending type strikes/knee/groin kicks/bites to nose)

I think there's a lot of misplaced complacency in the MA - there are grapplers that believe that they can stop any determined attacker with submission and there are strikers that believe that a skilled grappler couldn't possibly submit them. All I believe is that in a fight I'm going to whatever is necessary to get out with as little injury as possible. And I know that everything I tell myself I'll do in a fight goes out of the window once the adrenalin hits.

I expect one day I'll end up on the floor and wish I'd done some work on it - but I'll hold onto my misconceptions in the meantime.

Thanks to anyone who bothered to read my essay :)

[Ford Prefect]

I wouldn't call it ground vs stand-up. It's more of a battle between training styles. Some people like to train in a full-contact environment and use all the tools that are safely available to them there. Some people like to practice in a more static manner which they use tools that couldn't be used in a full contact environment for the safety of the combatants.

One faction says, "how do you know your techniques will work if you don't train with them going full blast with an uncooperative opponent" or "how can eye jab me when you can't even hit me with a solid punch" or even "how are you going to tear or bite, when you are being dominated positionally"

The other faction says, "how can you fight if you can't breathe, see, etc" or "you're style of fighting has rules and the absense of rules will change the situation in my favor"

Which is better? I doubt that will ever be 100% agreed upon or even 75% for that matter. Just do what you like and you feel comfortable doing. You're not going to convince anyone over the internet. Like the old saying goes:

Winning an argument on the internet is like winning a medal in the special olympics... you're still retarded.

I know it's not very PC, but it's funny and true!

[Kuen]

My first fight with a BJJ blue belt (real fight not game) he tried repeatedly to take me down until I knocked him out by grabbing his head and putting my knee in his mouth. Funny thing was he was a good 50lbs heavier and 6 inches taller. Another one against a wrestler in highschool and I let him get me in a front bear hug and he put his chin in my chest and tried to bend me over backwards, I busted his eardrum for him with a nice cupped hand to the ear. Since then I've done submission wrestling and BJJ and other than playing in the kwoon I've never found it of any use. Grappling is good fun and awesome for the ring but a pretty sorry self defense system.

[Ryu]

do you train to deal with the 'unsporting' methods in the clinch?

Yes I do.
And I've also bitten people in real fights as well. I bit a piece of some kid's pectoral off in a fight before I really knew how to grapple. He was a wrestler, and he took me down, and he was trying to beat me up. I held him, and bit off a piece of his skin. He got up and we got back to our feet. Then the fight was stopped. However....he probably could have taken me down again, and this time he was ****ed. So biting does work...but like legend said, not as a finishing move. It gives you space. Also you guys will probably have to worry about someone taking you down and pounding you, not submitting you. If you haven't sparred full contact with someone punching down at you from mount, you can't know how it feels to try and escape something like that...

The argument is old, but it boils down to this. If I don't train real punching skills and I get into a fight with a good puncher, and try to defend his punches with my untrained punching skills I will get knocked out. That's just what happens. If you don't train real grappling skills and get into a fight with a good grappler, and try to defend his grappling with your untrained grappling skills (i.e. trying to punch when he grabs you, etc) You'll get taken down and NOT armlocked, but pounded or choked to death.

There's no shame in addressing grappling. My training partner has gone gung ho on MMA and vale tudo sparring/training. Because he sees that it's realistic, and something he hadn't trained for with just his stand up. He doesn't pontificate what he'd do, he gets in there with me and we find out through fighting.

Ryu

[Merryprankster]

Ford--to the "absence of rules," argument, I offer only this: For the person who is SERIOUS about this, there are documented (taped) vale tudo fights in Brazil and probably Russia, that restrict eyegouging, biting and finger breaking. None of that secret underground fights in Hong Kong stuff. The rest is fair game, including groin shots (although, I'm sure the smart competitors wear cups...) and I'm wholly aware that the ring is still not the street, but that's pretty close without the risk of legal problems.

As to winning an argument on the internet--you're absolutely right about that. :)


but if you're in a clinch against someone who isn't easily going to be taken down are you confident you can cope against the full range of no-rules strikes? (headbutts/elbows to throat /tearing/rending type strikes/knee/groin kicks/bites to nose)
I am confident, in the clinch of my abilities to appropriately shut down space for these attacks. I have clinched with several muay thai fighters trying to knee and elbow me to head, body, inside thigh and have done fine (ie, they got some, I got some). I've trained with some kenpo guys who tried to rake my eyes, and given that grapplers train to bury their faces anyway (people always wanna push on it), that was fairly easy to negate.

I admit to not having had to deal with anybody trying to bite my nose.

As far as weapons, this is a glaring hole in my training.

[Xebsball]

Do we have to go over and over and over and over this again and again?

There is a lot of striker this, striker that
Grappler this, grappler that
Crosstrain blah blah blah

Here is the thing:
KUNG FU IS NOT STRIKING.

The whole "I MUST CROSSTRAIN IN GROUND FIGHTING" thing is some paranioa. Like OH MY GOD! WHAT IF... HE TAKES ME DOWN!

You are afraid of being taken to the ground
You are afraid you wont be able to fight there
So you crosstrain

First:
Get yourself some balls for gods sake

Second:
Knifes are cheaper than training, if you are so worried about yourself use a knife. Much easier to learn than grappling and much more street effective.
Or a .38 or a .45
Whatever, use your third arm.

Third:
Do you really really think you are safe (or safer) when you crosstrain in like 3 styles, striking grappling and stuff??
How about my two friends hold you and i stab you with scissors?

[Ryu]

"Grappling is good fun and awesome for the ring but a pretty sorry self defense system"


That's interesting because that's the exact conclusion I came to about all the striking and kung fu guys I've fought.

:rolleyes:

Ryu

[Merryprankster]

Then Xebs, why train at all.

And no it's not striking.

It's stand-up... and then there's the ground.

[Kuen]

That's interesting because that's the exact conclusion I came to about all the striking and kung fu guys I've fought.

yeah, I'm sure. Have you been in many real fights? I ask because I was a thug and a fighter before martial arts and I'd go so far as to say most MA's can't really fight but most of the grapplers I train with have an even more unrealistic view of fighting than the kung fu and karate guys I know.

[Merryprankster]

Kuen--

What you say doesn't actually surprise me that much. I know guys that STILL think BJJ is the ultimate in self-defense, and that, just because they do it, that they would be able to handle themselves whenever, wherever.... I'm sure some of it is "bandwagon hype," stuff. ESPECIALLY when BJJ takedowns are just so god-awful...and trained so infrequently.

Oh--a second thought, not directed at you Kuen, I personally don't think grappling means "ground work," as an ex-wrestler, I certainly think it encompasses much more, and to be a complete grappler requires knowledge of stand-up grappling and groundgrappling.

[Kaitain(UK)]

for what it's worth - I don't know many people who train to deal with a complete animal attacking them. I certainly don't - but I've had to deal with one before, and I've got scars to show for it (missing pinkie for one).

I don't think any amount of training could have helped me because I was mentally unprepared for that kind of assault - attackers aren't meant to resort to biting and convulsing and screaming and generally scaring the crap out of me. Thankfully I got through it and it taught me a valuable lesson - decide what I'm going to do as soon as a situation develops and decide on a trigger and then act to end the situation ASAP.

I'm sure the percentage of blinkered grapplers is exactly the same as in any other MA - until you've been in a situation that had your arse playing a tune you can't comprehend why you're living in cloud cuckoo land. I still fall into the trap of complacency, believing that my superior technique and ability make me invincible - but I just remind myself of various encounters and incidents and I fall back to earth.

I don't have an agenda, I'm firmly of the belief that grappling and striking are entwined. To me ground work is another arena entirely that encompasses grappling and striking - I don't train for the ground because I don't believe it likely to happen given my experiences and training. If I had the time then I'd like to train it for the added insurance but it's all about balance and priority.

One day it might well happen - but equally someone might pull a knife or a bat on me. I can't train for every eventuality and I train for more than self-defence. I find that training solely for defence leads you into a motivational dead-end - "what's the point, it might not work or this might happen or I might get jumped" etc

I do go on at times ;)

[Merryprankster]

Well, Kaitan, there are situations that training just can't duplicate very well. You got in one of them. That's the way it goes, because fights are a mess.

I'm glad you got through it though. Sorry about the pinkie. He sounds like he was either crazy or on something or both.

[qeySuS]

I'm tempted to think of fights such as "That Kung Fu dude" VS John Marsh where eye gouges were allowed and basicly everything.

Also the SAFTA master Jon Hess VS Vitor Belfort in a "No rules" fight (since Jon told everyone they had too many rules and he could beat them with no rules). Vitor beat the guy soooo senseless. Now i admit Jon Hess is a skillless fool, but still he used the same arguement and got his ass handed too him :)

[Kaitain(UK)]

He was a builder - he'd ripped off my elderly neighbour and she asked me to get him to leave her property when he came round asking for more money. Big bad-ass Muay Thai Kaitain went and told him to leave - I got him outside peacefully enough and then he went for me (after I'd relaxed - spot the experienced fighter out of the two of us) - in complete shock I tried to push him off by putting my hand on his chin (he was headbutting me) - it was at this point I think he bit my finger (he gloved it - the bone was intact to the second knuckle but the flesh was gone to the first). I don't know how long the fight lasted but eventually some police arrived and pulled him off me - it took twelve officers to get him into the van. It was about then I saw a flash of white out of the corner of my eye and realised what he'd done.

I declined to press charges on the basis he knew where I lived and he knew a lot of 'people'. It wasn't worth it and I was scared.

I heard he was recently imprisoned after strangling someone outside a pub after the victim asked his wife for a cigarette. Consequently when I had all that trouble last year when my wife was assaulted I was determined to see it through.

It's the pinky on my left hand so it doesn't affect me too much - was quite funny trying to program for the first few months since Ikept thinking I'd hit the left shift key but hadn't.

[Kuen]

What you say doesn't actually surprise me that much. I know guys that STILL think BJJ is the ultimate in self-defense, and that, just because they do it, that they would be able to handle themselves whenever, wherever.... I'm sure some of it is "bandwagon hype," stuff. ESPECIALLY when BJJ takedowns are just so god-awful...and trained so infrequently.

Rock on! Also, you are correct I should say groundfighting not grappling as I am quite partial to upright grappling. I've been practicing throws from the clinch, etc. and I love the fact that all one needs to do is hold the arm in a certain way and *snap*. Too bad I haven't been able to try it for real yet though. ;)

[JasBourne]

See now, I still don't understand why someone who trains a striking style would train a groundfighting style. What is the point in training in someone else's game, instead of perfecting your own? That makes absolutely no sense.

Training to understand what someone who studies groundfighting does, and how YOUR STYLE would counter their attacks, that makes sense. There are only so many different ways someone can try to bring you down, only so many principles that can be applied.

Training specifically to avoid being taken down (thereby playing the other guy's game, to your disadvantage), that makes sense. Training to get the freak up off the ground as fast as possible, that makes sense. Training how to avoid having a lock placed on you, that makes sense.

But training to win at someone else's game? No sense. If you want to win at someone else's game, you must make it your game first. You don't need to be a champion grappler if you train specifically not to go to the grappling space to begin with.

Make the turkey play YOUR game :D

[Ryu]

Yep, unfortunately I've been in quite a few real fights. If you don't know what to do on the ground, you're in trouble. Doesn't mean you have to be the best groundfighter to beat a groundfighter, but you do have to know their game.
The same way grapplers have to know a strikers game.

And Merry, yes I agree that BJJ has terrible takedowns :D Though I used to train with a BJJ blue who had wrestled in college for years, went on scholarships, etc. THAT was interesting! :D

Ryu

[Black Jack]

Jasbourne,

The only problem with that assumption is that you will be able to control the game. Sometimes you just don't have a choice as ranges will mutate depending on the enviromental situation at hand.

I am not saying you should be a expert groundfighter, but you should at least get a feel for that range, get a understanding of some basic tools so you can apply them if caught in that situation.

The problem is that in most circumstances you will have to find a range specific art to pick up some of those tools are learn from a person who has actual experiance from those encounters.

A real good reason to train on the ground is to practice with weapons on the ground, to put a knife into the equation, it will become a whole different ballgame, one should never assume that they are going to be fighting a unarmed attacker anyway.

How many grapplers work with weapons on the ground here?

[No_Know]

"If someone with Rodneys striking ability,is blown away with BJJ's ground techniques and then trains it,what should the average striker be doing? "

Out of fifty skills, whoever gets five really consistantly is at level one. And the sequence of next level happens with getting very good at five different skills. People in Kung-Fu on the same levels won't nercessarilly have the same ability as one another in the same skills. My comprehension is do what's appropriate. One should get understanding from whatever source that one can-ish. The size and quality of the database matters, some. Because the thing that one might end-up in might be one of the things that that one with which has not had experience.

Taken down, use the force to hurt them or the momentum to throw them. If they have staying power, exploit the loose places to prevent solidness. If they are solid on me, work, edges, joints and nooks. Armwork is the same, just adjusting angles.

Perhaps MerryPrankster would enlighten me sometime as to what I do not comprehend-ish. My anytime flexibility and comprehension of kinesiology, timing and psychology shows that there is no Stand-up. There is no, On-the-ground. That for basically, Kung-Fu there is Possibility. And prepare to do well in whatever situation you might get. Whether that be one leg, both legs, in the air, falling, taken down, getting-up...Theoretically, actual Kung-Fu has it all. And where the Practitioner is not strong , compensate for the moment and keep practicing. Because when you get to the fifty skills, you find that there might be fifty more.

Whatever else, some-such.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Winning an argument on the internet is like winning a medal in the special olympics... you're still retarded.
That's good. I must remember that when I am tempted to argue with people who post on these threads who obviously have no grappling experience but think they know all about how to counter it.

"one time, a challenger was putting me in a arm bar, and i 'accidentaly' broke his nose with my palm." "Grappling is good fun and awesome for the ring but a pretty sorry self defense system."

Gotta laugh, though.



Black Jack:
Coming from a stick/knife fighting background, I put these into my training right after I started on the ground.

[JWTAYLOR]

KF, I don't have the knife or the ground experience you have, but I've also thrown the training knife into my roll, and I gotta say, it's really it a problem for me.

Specifically, I practice taking someone down, mounting them, and then
a. trying to keep them from getting out a knife from their back pocket or
b. allowing them to get out the knife and defending from it.

Scenario A. isn't so difficult. If they've got that hand busy getting that knife then I've got a hand busy getting them. The simplest thing for me is to punch them with one hand and check or pin their arm with the other. Sometimes I'll get someone bridge or shrimp and then try to get the knife out while they bridge or shrimp, which is pretty hard to pull off and not that big of a problem.

Scenario B is a royal b!tch.
If, I get a perfect high mount I can pin their arms and keep the knife high while I punch them. But that's a big IF. Especially in a real fight. If I get a lower mount (don't get the arms high right away) then I almost always get stabbed trying to get a high mount. If I don't go for the high mount, and I sit back, I get stabbed in the thigh or even in the stomach.

Is moving to the side mount a better option? If so, what's the best way to do that and avoid them getting the blade in me while I move.

Or is there a better idea?

BTW, we start with a predetermined take down, which I "get" to perform on them, almost always an inside double leg.

thanks
JWT

[Knifefighter]

JWT:
Try this- Forget any punching in scenario B. Make disarming the blade your priority. Try to isolate the arm and work a 2 on 1 on the knife hand, which is usually relatively easy from the mount. Once you get the 2 on 1, you can use a variety of disarms to take the blade away.
Once you get the weapon away from him, he's toast-
http://www.dogbrothers.com/images/photogalleries/01action/pages/34.htm

[respectmankind]

it appears no one shares my opinion. well, i was thinking about it and i find that what i was talking about isn't doing 'random crap' as you said, but more of being 'flexable' in a fight. i to agree ground fighting is important knowledge. but i ask you this? will your grappling skills get you anywhere against the predator that even might arnold could not beat????

[Yajirobe]

turdles can fight on the ground....you don't have a shell don't bother negatives.

[Ryu]

BWAhahahaha! :D :D

Good night everybody!

[Merryprankster]

JasBourne--nobody is advocating becoming an expert in groundfighting. What they ARE talking about is the "sprawl n' brawl." You learn to defend takedowns, and how to defend submission attempts and get back up. That's it. This is a small subset of grappling that is much easier than learning the whole shebang. You can get quite good at defense quickly for the simple reason that you don't have to look to create openings for attack.

No-Know--here's the problem: Moving on the ground is fundamentally different than standing. This is not to say that the sensitivity from say, Wing Chun won't transfer over and help you learn, but right off the bat, you are not going to know HOW to move on the ground. It's just so different...when I first started wrestling, there were all these times where I thought I was doing what I should be doing, and as it turns out I wasn't applying pressure at all, and had almost no effect. There is NOTHING about throwing a kick, a punch, or executing footwork that transfers over to the ground...heck, there's nothing about takedowns or throws that transfer over to the ground, really, except some of the off-balancing. This is so, because power generation and pressure generation are not the same thing. So to say that Kung Fu is about possibilities--well, that might be true. However, if you cannot move in a way to realize those possibilities, then they simple remain possibilities, and cannot help you.

As a slightly colorful example, we call new wrestlers fish because they flail around, expending so much energy and doing so much nothing. They just don't know how to move yet.

Kinesthetic Awareness, just for the record, is just understanding how to move your body to make it do what you want it to, and having a sense of where you are in three dimensions. Gymnasts, dancers, etc have a very high degree of kinesthetic awareness, for instance.

Respect--If you are doing "random crap," in accordance with good principles, then it's not random crap. It's being flexible. If you're flopping around like a fish then you're doing random crap cause you don't know any better. And yes, Rickson Gracie could beat the Predator. Rickson is Love. I am going to go burn incense to him now.

Yours in Rickson's name

James

[Ryu]

"Rickson is Love"

And he spoke unto them and said
"Go ye bretheren, Royce, Royler, Rorion... and spread the word of Rickson Gracie, for all those who fight in his name shall taste not defeat, but shall have victory everlasting."

......"unless they happen to face a small Japanese man with a nerdy smile...in that case all is lost."

[tsunami surfer]

I truely feel that if your going to be doing moves in the street you had better be a well rounded fighter. I feel fortunate that I have found a school that does that. The week is divided up into different training techniques. Some days are sparring, others BJJ, sometimes competition work and others for real self defense. Then atleast twice a week we spar/grapple. That means if you want to stand up or go to the ground anything goes. Only rule is no nard shots. no eye pokeing or biting. I prefer to stay on my feet to fight but I am prepared to take someone to the ground and fight there. Anyone can claw scratch bite flail out of desparation and even win the fight that way. But remember that we train to be better than that. We want to be true warriors with the skills we work hard to develop.I often spar a guy in our school who is on the Army boxing team. We both would rather stand. He has an EVIL left jab. You never see it coming. So i try to working my kicking skills on him. Get the point? same with others that have a skill greater than mine, I do something else to counter act and defeat him. I train hand stick knife and gun to be a total warrior. If you want to practice ONE style great go for it and learn it well. If you only train for competitions great I wish you much sucsess in your tournies. But if you are training to be a warrior you better know what you are doing in the 3dimentional world of chaos called combat.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Merryprankster


Kinesthetic Awareness, just for the record, is just understanding how to move your body to make it do what you want it to, and having a sense of where you are in three dimensions. Gymnasts, dancers, etc have a very high degree of kinesthetic awareness, for instance.




Great choice of words!!
The above is, IMHO, what separates some Classical kung fu from "stand up" styles. The feel, sense of range, fluidity and levels of engagement are much different from the standing boxing style arts. In a sense some of these styles were "mixed" long before the term became envogue. The main reason styles such as wing chun have difficulty with groundfighters is that they are strangers to fighting below the boxing hand fighting window. Not to take away from wing chun stylists or boxers, they will excel at their game, as some groundfighters have learned the hard way. But it's easy to see how a boxer, lets say, who gets separated from a clinch every time and never so much as bends his knees 20 ° will not know what to do if toppled. In end though, strategy will prevail. Whoever can make their game stick will win.

[No_Know]

A nice reply, thanks~. Fish, that's cute. Not being used to something, understandable.

There's more to throwing than off balancing?

If I understood how I moved I thought that that might be applicable to how the other person moved and I could manipulate that.~

A person who is just learning form or had only styles Kung-Fu might not have the database or understanding to move for that ground situation. But I would think that people with twenty-two years of training/practice or more in Kung-Fu would have reviewed that type of situation.

"There is NOTHING about throwing a kick, a punch, or executing footwork that transfers over to the ground"

Kick-knee approaching your head; pressing the other foot to the ground could help destroy their base with your lifted hips. The knee might or might not be a significant offensive thingie. I kick by bringing the knee-up first. Punching-elbows in for power, out for sneak or distance based striking. Wing Chun purports a good punch within six inches. JKD-a three inch punch. Footwork-shifting my legs (attached to my feet)displaces my body when there is no ground under them or under one placed well.

"...heck, there's nothing about takedowns or throws that transfer over to the ground, really, except some of the off-balancing. This is so, because power generation and pressure generation are not the same thing."

[JWTAYLOR]

Muchos gracias Knife Fighter,
JWT

[ji way lung]

my question is, what is the preoccupation with fighting on the ground? it isn't natural for humans to be on the floor, so why would anyone want to fight *exclusively* on the ground?

it seems to be bjj is concerned with groundfighting (obviously), so they train takedowns to get the person on the floor. but why?? doesn't it make logical sense to fight standing up, then *if* you hit the floor, do whatever needs to be done, as opposed with trying to get the person on the floor in the first place, then doing the deadly stuff? sure real fights end on the ground sometimes, but as i said it seems to me bjj wants it on the ground all the time.

judo for example, doesn't train exclusively on the ground. they have hold downs and chokes and what not in the case you're on the ground, but throws are done from a standing position, it's not so preoccupied with getting the person on the floor in the first place so they can kill the person or whatever.

um yeah... hope i made some sense. :D

[Merryprankster]

No_Know,

I can envision what you are describing... however:

A short punch from your back on the ground does not have the trunk muscles to draw on, and proper alignment to make the punch "stiff" is nigh impossible. Power transfer up from the ground doesn't exist. Your back is more or less flat; torque/alignment is difficult to generate. In any event, reaching up towards your opponent from the bottom (if you are mounted) is something that will likely get you injured against somebody who knows the armbar.

I understand what you are saying about the knee bit, but here's the deal--power generation can create an opening, but it takes pressure generation to maintain the opening so you can move (or power generation to shut down the opening, and pressure generation to keep it closed, if that's the right thing at that time). If you just throw power around you can disrupt my balance for a moment, but if you don't know where to go next, then it's wasted energy, not to mention leaving you open for attacks, and you have to do it again, and again, and again. A fish throws their power around but doesn't capitalize due to inexperience in moving on the ground.

Experience in Kung Fu will help you learn on the ground, in as much as you are more in tune with your movements than Joe Six-Pack. Any specific techniques you want to transfer over will be hard to apply until ground movement is understood.

And as far as there being more to throwing than off-balancing, yes. I can off-balance somebody and they won't go down because they'll move to regain balance. The trick is to off-balance them and remove their support ("post") at the same time, while taking them to where the support would go if it wasn't blocked off.

ji--BJJ is occupied with groundfighting because that is how it evolved. The takedowns are, however, atrocious, and if you can't go from standing to the ground, well.... your BJJ isn't going to help you. The ground has a couple of advantages--surprise for one--nobody expects you to actually be able to ATTACK that way, from the guard, a bottom position, secondly, nullification of speed, strength and size are much easier on the ground than standing because you are limiting the amount of space the opponent can use. It also has disadvantages--namely, your ability to leave or attend to other threats is compromised. Any decent BJJer will tell you that BJJ is not the end all be all. However, they will also tell you that their training lets them get up and leave far faster than somebody who doesn't spend a lot of time on the ground. I train for the ground so I don't have to stay there if I don't want to. Heck, my instructor teaches to sweep, knee mount, soccer kick to the head and run. The rest is just fun :)

[apoweyn]

ji way lung,

a couple of things. it isn't natural for people to be on the floor. true, i suppose. but what does nature have to do with it? we're humans. we go against nature all the time. intellect pushes us to make decisions that often run contrary to instinct. sometimes those decisions work. sometimes, not so much.

besides, in a way, it makes perfect sense. we're all people. and if it truly is unnatural for us to fight on the ground, then it makes sense that someone that learns to do it anyway would be able to put the rest of us in a very unnatural position. if he has taught himself to feel natural there, and we haven't done likewise, then he's got us at an advantage in that particular situation.

one other thing: if wrestling truely is the oldest martial art (and there seems to be evidence to that effect), or even if it's just one of the most universal (forms of wrestling exist in a huge number of cultures), then it seems to follow that grabbing, unbalancing, and physically manipulating an opponent IS a fairly natural mode of combat. and given the inherent chaos in fighting, if one person is unbalanced, there's a good chance that both are going down. so even if you take intent out of it, odds aren't bad that you're going to end up on the ground anyway.

not a foregone conclusion, by any stretch. but a strong possibility.

there's nothing 'natural' about emulating animals, raising your foot above your head, or putting your fist through boards either, to my mind.


stuart b.

[ji way lung]

Originally posted by apoweyn
ji way lung,
one other thing: if wrestling truely is the oldest martial art (and there seems to be evidence to that effect), or even if it's just one of the most universal (forms of wrestling exist in a huge number of cultures), then it seems to follow that grabbing, unbalancing, and physically manipulating an opponent IS a fairly natural mode of combat. and given the inherent chaos in fighting, if one person is unbalanced, there's a good chance that both are going down. so even if you take intent out of it, odds aren't bad that you're going to end up on the ground anyway.

there's nothing 'natural' about emulating animals, raising your foot above your head, or putting your fist through boards either, to my mind.


My style does none of the above. :p

well i agree with almost all you have said, but my question is what is the preoccupation with fighting *exclusively* on the ground? why *only* train takedowns and submissions or whatever it's called? there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of training to also fight standing up... it just looks like it's concerned with getting ppl on the ground before you actually hurt them. why not train to fight 'normally', ie. standing up, and also learn to fight on the ground in the instance you end up on the floor? it just seems to disregard striking, and more concerned with takedowns to use the good stuff.

i don't know anything about wrestling, but 'grabbing, unbalancing, and physically manipulating' can be done standing up, and may possibly hurt the person before they hit the ground. and isn't wrestling a sport? i never got the impression it was to seriously hurt someone, just subdue them...

[apoweyn]

well, most MMA do learn to do damage while on their feet, in addition to being comfortable on the ground. not all, but most.

as for the groundfighting being so emphasized these days, bear in mind that most of what we hear about a style, without actually being in it, is marketing and hype. and marketing centers around what's unique about your product. the emphasis on groundfighting is fairly unique.

i'm fully convinced that the whole '99 percent of fights... ' stuff is overhyped. but the danger in reacting to that is always to instead 'underhype' a thing. i do believe that the advent of BJJ taught the rest of us some valuable lessons. the trick is to keep everything in perspective. give issues the weight they deserve. not less and not more.

it's a good trick. :)


stuart b.

p.s. i still don't think there's anything 'natural' about any of this. tigers and gorillas don't practice tiger style or gorilla fist. they just do their thing. as humans, we don't have a 'thing' in this context. so we come up with styles. humans are unique in our ability to reprogram our own instincts, shape our own nature. so i'm not convinced that standing and striking is any more natural than groundfighting.

[Braden]

No_Know & Merryprankster - There's more to throwing than offbalancing and removing the post. Think about destroying the opponent's structure. For instance, take a person who is facing you in some variation of a basic front-on stance, and then rotate his torso so his shoulders and hips are facing 90o from one another. Even if he is still completely balanced, it will now be very easy to offbalance him and remove his post.

No_Know, from this point it may be easier to conceptualize what MerryPrankster is talking about, as I'm sure you are familiar with the feeling of your and your opponent's structure being 'on' or 'off' from your neijia. When your structure is 'off' you have a hard time controlling your body for generating or absorbing force. This seems to be the lesson of the neijia: keeping your's on, and getting your opponent's off. When you are taken to the ground, the same thing is happening. Your structure becomes broken. They're not just taking you to the ground for the sake of fighting horizontal, they're breaking your structure. They might not use this terminology, but it's exactly how it feels. People say they would just mount a powerfull offense if taken to the ground, but it is the same as telling a taiji man you will mount a massive offense once he has closed off your structure. The taiji man learns to keep his own structure with relaxing, opening the gua, sinking into the hips, etc etc etc. But structure is a little different on the ground. When MerryPrankster talks about pressure generation, what he is talking about really is generating structure. That's what these guys practice.

This is how it has felt to me on the ground: like I haven't been able to do anything because my structure has been broken. To form structure, I've had to grab on to anything tight with my hands, then use mostly my elbows and hips to push and prod, or sometimes act like spears set into the ground against his pushing, or like fulcrums of a lever for other forces. It takes me a while, and I struggle, but most of the time I've managed to somehow arrive in a place where I feel my structure again and can do something constructive. You know how if you took two strangers off the street and told them to touch hands, and push gently until they felt their opponent's structure fail, and then to push hard to knock them over - they'd probably be at it for quite a while before someone hit the ground? But if one of them was a great taiji man, you might expect it to take a second? Well, I get the feeling it's the same thing on the ground. While I spent a long time struggling for structure, I imagine these expert groundfighters would be like the taiji man on his feet - pop and it's there. The utility of this, and implication for if someone like me ever faced one ;) are obvious.

Will taiji skills transfer to the ground? Certainly yes. The paradigm is very much the same, and the concept of structure and raw ability for introspection and sensitivity in the taiji man will be an extraordinary foundation for ground skills. However, maintainance and disruption of structure on the ground isn't exactly the same as standing, even if it shares enough principles to talk about it. To be able to get this idea into his body, the taiji man will have to go 'hands-on', he'll have to train on the ground. And that's all anyone here (at least the reasonable ones; the others aren't worth paying attention to ;) ) is advocating. They're not really saying take martial art X, they're saying 'you're principles won't translate over until you've made them translate over with training.'

Or, uh... so it all seems to me.

[apoweyn]

i feel truly blessed to be, in all probability, the only guy on this forum who has actually been taken down by both no_know and merryprankster.

[insert your own joke here]


stuart b.

[Merryprankster]

Braden--

I'll buy that. I don't know about it being "more," I just think of what you are describing as part of the off-balancing for the throw/sweep. For example, I kept screwing up uchi-mata until I learned to "turn the steering wheel," with my hands. It breaks their ability to respond by yanking them out of alignment. I think of it as "freezing their foot to the mat." Same-same, and a good description.

See--the more people talk about basic principles, the more and more similar it gets!

And ji--yes, wrestling is a sport but two things:

1. Don't underestimate the countless hours spent working against fully resisting opponents, even if they aren't allowed to punch or kick.

2. Don't underestimate the effects of being dumped on your head or back on a hard or even medium hard surface.

[Braden]

Nod. For sure. I was mostly just drawing it out as a useful analogy to explain why people can't just execute a powerfull offense on the ground.

And sure everything's the same; what's different is how people go about getting to it. ;)

[Merryprankster]

Why is something that is so easy in principle so hard in real life:

Freeze foot to floor.

Tip person over foot.

Run.

In real life.

"How'd I end up on my back...again."

[No_Know]

Braden and Merryprankster, thank you for your nicely-put mentions.

"For instance, take a person who is facing you in some variation of a basic front-on stance, and then rotate his torso so his shoulders and hips are facing 90o from one another."

Pa Kua teaches to move in that position.

"A short punch from your back on the ground does not have the trunk muscles to draw on, and proper alignment to make the punch "stiff" is nigh impossible."

I don't seem to need to twist to get what might be considered a "stiff" punch. At best there might be a slight contraction. As far as susceptible to armbar that makes sense. I tend to make it a point to not sacrifice/endanger~ my limbs' joints.

Again, thank you people.

[Braden]

I think you're a little confused about bagua. But you can use any other example of broken posture if you don't like that one, and the argument is the same.

[No_Know]

Very good. Thank you.

[LEGEND]

JI...u also have to understand...BJJ was created by a very small man who did not possess any KO power whatsever. So unfortunately he could not use basic boxing or other striking arts to his advantage. He in turn created a style that forced an opponent to the ground where he could break a limb or strangle an opponent. Hence BJJ.