Specializing sides

[NARVAL]

Some fighting methods train different sides of the body to do different things, based on the assumption that you are naturally better with one hand/foot.
For instance, in western boxing the standard on-guard goes with the left foot in front and the hand structure is developed accordingly - Jab with the front hand and second with more power with the right hand (supposedly better). I may be oversimplifying, but the general idea is correct.
I do not think TCMA go as far as western boxing along that line. In particular, I have not (yet) found a style structured around this concept. However, some styles seem to accept some degree of dissymmetry in two men drills and sparring. I have experienced that in lung ying.
Is this issue addressed in your style? How? When sparring, are you equally comfortable on both sides?
Thank you in advance for your comments.

[anton]

Traditionally CLF players lead with the right - I was told this is to keep the heart away from the opponent (apparently there is also a major artery running under the left arm. Although we were always encouraged to train both sides - occasionally I used to practise my forms on the other side.

[EAZ]

I think that one must train as much as possible symetrically when sparring. We all naturally tend to emphesise one side. if our goal is learning how to fight in shortest space of time, then 1 side only is logical. If our goal of sparring is to reach the level of spontaneous action, without reaction without conditioning, then symetrical is key. You cannot do this properly if your spirit/body tells you systematically "oh no! he's attacking me on the wrong side, I must pivot and turn to attack him with my heavy right hand"

On a very practical and concrete level, when sparing, if you have the habit of grabbing with left hand and striking with right, (as I have seen some schools train exclusivel this) you WILL get nailed all things being equal by opponent if he knows you can only throw a punch on one side especially if you consider leg strikes.

Furthermore, there are clear health problems associated with one sided training in my experience. This is why we are taught, even in one sided forms as are present in basic Pei Mei, to practice opposite side version at least once if you practice one side version many times in succession.

[NARVAL]

1.When sparing with one side leading you not only determine the type of moves you can do but also the moves your opponent can do.
2.Even if you do not specialize, you are always working from a side, be it left or right. So the question is “are they circumstances where choosing one side makes more sense than the other for reasons other than your own ability”. I would say “yes” but still be facing an “accessibility vs. benefits” type of question. Anyhow, I would be interested in knowing what would your reasons be for leading with one side as opposed to the other. This probably relates somehow to EAZ’s point on “spontaneous action”.
3.Another question is “how far does the specialization go”. I guess it all starts with the habit of one foot leading most of the time. This will impose certain things on you but need not go as far as, for instance, one hand doing only defensive work and the other hand doing only offensive work.
4.EAZ, could you please elaborate on the health issues.

[northstar]

An anatomical note: the arteries run the same way in both arms, there's no difference between left and right.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Salut Narval!!

I often wondered about that...I have always been told that it was necessary to train symetrically...but I came across a theory which I particularly enjoy because 1) it is different and 2) it ressembles the sensations I had in boxing and I have in gong fu more...
EAZ, it mind remind you of something, remember Henry Plee?? :D
Well anyway, the theory is as follows: our sides are controlled by the two opposite brain hemispheres...and these brain hemispheres are quite different, even opposite when it comes to certain functions...so instead of trying to level the skills on both side, that guy advocated that you should instead amplify the differences, so that each side was getting much better in their own field...one side being for example killer at circular movements, while the other would be unbeatable on linear trajectories...
I think both approaches are quite interesting, and I'd say the best stuff is to mix the two: get a good ability to perform fight basics with both sides while still specializing the sides further...

[EAZ]

With all the respect I have for H. Plée anf family,

With all the respect I have for people with much more real fighting experience than I do (not just sparring but real world stuff),

It has been my experience that:
Before bridging:
- initial stance can be what you feel most confortable with
- advanced students can lead attacker into actions depending on initial posture

After bridging
- all bets are off: the sequence of events once one person or other has thrown bridge can be endless, definitely not a fixed sequence, hence avoid fixed pattern or side of moving.
(see perhaps chaos theory of combat thread?)

Once vectors of force meet, in all their complexity and variety, there is only room for appropriate spontaneous action (spontaneous because situation at T+1 after bridge thrown cannot be known in advance).

Therefore if your best opportuinity is to throw a left punch/uppercut and you cannot do this you are at a dissadvantage.

However, if I had to train for 3 years to become the best fighter inthe world I would just practice 2-3 fixed routines as hard a spossible, probably one sided and just execute these moves on every attacker.

Learning spontaneous action is nothing short than enlightenment!

EAZ

[NARVAL]

EAZ and Crimson P: good to see you around.

IMHO, MA are about choices :short range/long range ; hands/kicks ; grappling/striking ; hard/soft ; circular/linear ; mobile footwork/rooting ; variety of techniques/power generation ; symmetry/dissymmetry ; etc.

By choosing one style, you necessarily give up on certain things. By confronting your style with your own body structure and personality, you also eventually give up on certain things and bring other things in. The fact that TCMA have developed so many different styles makes the point, I think.

Question: what do you get in return for having given up on certain things. Answer: “time” to deepen other things.
Question: should certain things never be given up (the pursuit of symmetry for instance). Answer: Don’t know. My intuition is that wrong starts were 1/ you body is not developed in a balanced way 2/ your no longer have a “system”, able to address, whatever the choices, every possible situation in combat and 3/ long term benefits are sacrificed to short term benefits (after all are we not all in TCMA because of the long term perspective).

From a practical point of view, it is true that after bridging you enter the land of the unexpected. However, I am not convinced that keeping the same side leading all along does necessarily prevent you from addressing whatever needs to be addressed. I would say that a western boxer deals pretty well and spontaneously with whatever is coming his way from his one sided on-guard.

However, I must admit that :
- If possible, equal proficiency on both sides would naturally be better.
- developing a balanced body would speak for symmetry

My own conclusion on this would be :
- Long term, I believe symmetry is one of the goals, although I do not know exactly how to rank it among others
- Different emphasis is ok at different stages
- I need some degree of dissymmetry at this stage to understand better what I do as opposed to doing more things.

[EAZ]

My point of view on this subject is probably not worth that much anyhow.

I do not practice nearly enough to verify all that I say. And since my point of view is against specialising, I may in practice be making a wrong choice as I simply do not have the time to explore my "generalist" point of view that suposedly englobes other aspects of martial arts (medecine, etc...).

It requires much more training.

But as the goal of my training is NOT to learn how to fight in shortest possible time, I still proceed with my "generalist" point of view. Maybe I am missing out on certain experiences because I do not, contrary to you as you have clearly shown me when we met, just practice 3 technics/prinicples for years.

We will see in 10 more years !

[NARVAL]

EAZ :
Hey man! Your point of view is very interesting to me. From what you say I take it that we have approximately reached the same point in life : age (34), children (2), job (IT.. I'll tell you more about that if you want) and are thus probably facing the same type of questions regarding MAs : where can I really expect to get from where I am, considering the many things I have to deal with outside MAs...
I guess our motivations in MAs are fairly similar too. Best fighter in the world is not on my list either.
To your frustration regarding the time available for training, I add one for myself of lost time in the past : change of styles due to vanishing sifus and travelling – insufficient dedication due to crazy schedules and worse reasons etc.
Anyway, as you say on another thread, mouth kung fu won’t get us very far, so… back to sweating (for another 10 years).

[Yum Cha]

EAZ,
I'm beginning to think of you as my "internal" brother. Narval, pleased to meet you, I am that 10 years later, at 44.

What do you mean by symmetry? Doing the same thing with each side, or perhaps using each side equally? Yang and Yin are in symmetry, however neither is the mirror image of the other, would you agree?

I will admit that I train Jik Bo on both sides, however, for me at least, there are attacks for right, and others for left. I tend to strike more with my right, and fend or grapple with my left, but not exclusively. My left handed strikes are however not like my right, and my right hand fending and grappling are not like my left. I use what comes to me from the patterns, nothing more fancy than that.

I know 5 gates, I know keys to the gates. Each key is a complete in its symmetry, but not symetrical.

The keys are usually in groups of 3 combinations, and sometimes it may take more than one key to open a gate, but you never know until you try.

Mind you, this doesn't take into account the engagement stage of a contest...

[fiercest tiger]

You are an old dogg and thats with a double G!

:)

Technique of 3 should have finished your opponent in combinations with bridging. when 4 is used then death! without bridging then 1 technique should finish opponent.

im not making sense i think well anyways, you may understand.

left or right side doesnt really matter as well as you understand the main strikes that kill and dont in your system and of course dont forget yin and yang principles of left and right and what they relate to chi and blood.

enough of my sh!t

cya
FT:D

[EAZ]

Originally posted by Yum Cha
EAZ,
I'm beginning to think of you as my "internal" brother. Narval, pleased to meet you, I am that 10 years later, at 44.

What do you mean by symmetry? Doing the same thing with each side, or perhaps using each side equally? Yang and Yin are in symmetry, however neither is the mirror image of the other, would you agree?


Agree.

Do tell me what's in store fo me in 10 years !

Do I get to wear long flowing robes and flowers and have lots of female students that I invite to island retreats for internal chi kung training?

Or do I think "gee, I should have taken up tennis and golf, much better for my social and professional life".

EAZ

[Yum Cha]

Well, yes, you do get overwhelmed with nubile female students with more lust than dedication, but unfortunately, the celebacy required at advanced levels makes them irrelevant. You do want to get to the advanced levels, don't you? Oh yea, you gotta give up meat as well, sorry. Just a bit of rice with some peanuts in it is enough for the week. Et le vin rouge, mai non!

You don't need the long flowing robes, you can go naked, and what's better, you are so old an knobbly that nobody even notices. Except of course, all those pesky wanton babes.

At least after all these years, the missus has finally quit asking, "do you really need to go to training today?"

Just remember, at 40, you are at your peak, if you can stay on top of the injuries incurred in your 30's trying to get there.

Get a good supply of Jao.

[nospam]

Hi.

Bak Hsing CLF practitioner here.

We train/teach to have the lead hand = the dominent hand. So that will be either left or right hand forward or the power hand.

In the beginning, our pattern is done on both sides. The latter sets are right hand lead. We train (2-person & sparring) to develop both sides. I'm always trying to challenge myself and my students, so switching sides is a definite challenge!

Of course we all develop a stronger side, but I never neglect training the undeveloped side. You need to be comfortable facing an opponent that is unorthodox or just plain stupid :) When you mix it up, direction is formless, but never haphazard. We must all train hard to maintain what we have learned and trained...

nospam.
:cool: