Young Sifus

[Ray Pina]

In another thread I was posting how its easy to stay put if you reached a good level of an art, or rather a school.

With that said I have a few friends who are opening legit schools (not teaching a friend in a yard). Now, to me, and I tell them this, to each there own. The best of luck. Wish you well.

But, inside, I feel they are really not ready to take on that respnsibility, title. First, no one is giving them that title, for they broke off from their training.

Second, they are young, they still need to fight those fights, experience more.

Third, are they ready to defend their schools from a challenge.

And, lastly but most important in my eyes, Are they so good that they should stop learning? For some its hard to start from scratch, too humbling to be a "white belt" again.

I know the answer to each of these. And I think they do to ... but still they want that title.

Any thoughts?

[norther practitioner]

Maybe this is a good "learning experience". The thing about "young sifus" is that they have to remember that you should always be learning. That being said, it will also take them a while to develop their own teaching style. This is important, however, some may say that you should teach the same way you were taught, but hearing that they broke off, maybe thats what they needed a change in.
eople need to be careful with opening up a school, as it is a business first in many respects at this point in time. Hopefully these people have the means to not cut corners. Well luck to all. Well thats my thoughts as of now.

[shaolinboxer]

My instructor is 62 I believe. My senior brothers range from their 30s to their 50's.

The best way to defend against a challange at your school is ask the guy to leave or call the cops. I do not belive these kinds of challanges have any value, and the endanger the life of the school. It is far to easy to run a scam.

Starting your own school has many risks. Perhaps the greatest risk is that you will stall your own advancement.

There are instructors for every level of student. Your friends sound like they will fall into the intermediate to high-intermediate catagory. They can expect amny of thier students to surpass them and leave them behind.

[JasBourne]

The head guy in my kwoon is late 40s. The next instructor down is late 30's. The apprentice instructor is mid-30's. A couple of senior students in their mid 20's assist with instructing beginners. That's it.

[Tigerstyle]

I don't think anyone should feel that they don't need to learn anymore, regardless of their status.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Right on, Tigerstyle

[SanHeChuan]

Teaching is learning! Duh!

My instructor is young maybe one or two years older than me. He started teaching us before he even got his black belt, now I and another student just tested for our black belt and he tested for his 2nd degree. I feel that I am close to his level, could maybe even beat him in point sparring, but I also see that I need to practice allot more to truly be close. I got to watch him test and watched him at the tournament, and he is allot better than his peers. I was considering quitting before I saw him test, now not so much. He is still learning from his teacher though.

My san shou teacher is ten years older that me with much more experience than my other teacher, how ever he has just started teaching, and I feel that my other teacher is a better instructor.

How can you develop you own teaching style with out teaching? Teaching at your instructors school is a hell of allot different than teaching at your own. And when you teach you a improving your skills (sometimes) allot more than by being taught. I doubt their growth will stop, still doesn’t mean that they should be teaching though. :D

ok i'm done talking just for the sake of talking.

[Nexus]

If a teacher has been studying ten years, and started when he was 16, I see no problem with issue with that. If you enrolled an eight year old kid in tai chi, and he stuck with it for 20 years, he'd be 28 and probably have a pretty high level of skill for that age. Would you train with him if he had the qualities of a good teacher or discount him for his age?

It's really up to the individual.

- Nexus

[Ray Pina]

SanHe, your teacher is still learning, no problmes there in my eyes. Its no diffrent then a senior teaching a junior. He's showing what he knows while adding to it.

Jasbourne, TigerStyle, right on!:)

Combined, I have roughly 17 years of training, but its nowhere near enough. At one time I thought I was pretty good (about 18 months ago), now I don't think I'm good at all, though I'm better then I was then. There's always a higher level, even within the framework of what you know.

However, merely collecting all of a styles forms does not qualify one to teach -- I BELIEVE. These people were seniors at other schools, teaching kids. Meanwhile there peers were out fighting and testing. They did not like the scene and took their young students and opened up their own school and became "sifus".

Shaolinboxer, I disagree with you 100%. I would like to be a teacher one day, if my master finds me suitable to do so one day.

If that day comes and someone walks into my school for a challenge, I will make it my life's duty to have them feel they made the biggest mistake of their lives about 3 minutes afterwards.

If you can't defend your school, what do you have? How does it look running to the phone in front of your students when someone comes in and basically says, I know I'm better then you let's go.

On the street, walk away every time: Stupid drunks and loud mouths don't know any better. But a martial artists challenging me, well, that's exactly what I'm training for.

It happens more then one would think.

[Gargoyle again]

EF: "If that day comes and someone walks into my school for a challenge..."

Sadly, in today's world you are begging to get slapped with a lawsuit should the guy get hurt, or even "claim" he got hurt. Physical pre-meditated violence (in front of witnesses!) means you'll either get your a55 handed to you in court, or bankrupt your school with the legal fees to defend. Is it worth putting the welfare of your students and school on the line? Will your students still respect you when they no longer have a sifu to train with or school to attend?

Challenges and duels have been obsolete as a means of resolution since the 1800's. Police and lawyers

If it really must come to violence, use some brains...handle it in a dark alley with no witnesses...

[shaolinboxer]

EF - I think you've seen too many kung fu movies.

[Paul]

I have absolutely no interest in learning from someone who dials 911 the second someone walks into their school looking for a challange. What does that say about someone who is teaching a MARTIAL(yes martial) art?

[Ray Pina]

Challenges are certainly not obsolete -- at least not around here.

As for legal issue. I know you are right, but I for one, as a martial artists, if challenged, I'm not thinking about that, but thinking I better not lose after all this training, practice, blood, sweat and even tears as a young boy.

I would rather deal with a person turning into a little bit(h afterwards, then refuse a challenge. Believe it or not, I'm not even a sifu, no where close, but I've had old training partners request a fight. I always say, sure, let's get together and chi sau or soemthing -- I keep it vague, leave it up to them (chi sau, fight, gear, no gear).

The few occassions have always been medium grade fighting, with head gear. Except for one which was bare handed, but no head strikes which I found wierd. No problems. That last one actually I lost the last go around, I was turned. I cleand him out the first three times though.

Be both walked away feeling good, but yet with things on our mind to work on. We remain friends. I had questions for my knew seniors and the problem was corrected. I'll never make that mistake again.

My old teacher (where this guy came from) broke a collar bone in such a match and had no legal ramifications. I can respect that from the other guy.

As for my master now. He's 60, and I believe he has had 3 or 4 in the 13 months I've been with him. One of the reasons I want to get good is that I would like to stand in his place. He shouldn't have to accept these matches. I would readily stand in now, but against a good player (and they better be good before even considering walking up those stairs) I know I am not a real representative of E-chuan. I have the right frame of mind, just not the technique yet. I still need time.

I think in the end my point is this: Not everyone is practicing for their belt test with bagels and milk and smiling faces all around. There are serious players out there and they might knock on your door. Will you be ready ... or will you bit(h out.

I think your business, if you're looking at it that way, would be worse off backing out of such a thing. I view it as each generation should stand on the shoulders of the one before it. I do not want to be that weak link. My forefathers have represented, and represented well. If it will live on it has to live on in its entirety. Upgrade, but never downgrade.

I think this post sums up exactly how I feel as a martial artist.

[shaolinboxer]

Winning without even fighting is the greater victory.

[Nexus]

Originally posted by shaolinboxer
Winning without even fighting is the greater victory.

Nobody is arguing that. If you choose to live the purist lifestyle of a martial artist, that is entirely your choice but that is all that it is, "your choice."

Beyond legal issues, there is no moral rights or wrongs of accepting challenge matches. It goes from one individual to the next.

I've seen more often than not that challenges are usually issued by people who do not have anything near a high-level of skill.

The teachers I've studied tai chi with would openly accept challenges, but would do so in an organized fashion. If someone challenged them, they would set up a meeting time and place, where the teachers senior students would be allowed to observe without interference. If the challenger didn't agree to those terms then they are welcome to leave and challenge someone else elsewhere.

You, as the person being challenged though, have some very distinct advantages in respect to the person issuing the challenge. One of those advantages is that the challenger is bringing the energy to you. Another is that the person is off-balance mentally otherwise they wouldn't be walking around trying to challenge people in the first place.

[shaolinboxer]

Fascinating. I didn't realize I had become such a "purist".

So be it.

[Ray Pina]

Well Said.

As for: Winning without even fighting is the greater victory.

Yea. $hitting without squating would be nice too. But this is the real world and MARTIAL arts that we are talking about.

I play chess. Love it. When soemone says, "hey how about a game." Their intention is to beat me, not lose. As a lover of the game, I think I will win. ONLY ONE WAY TO FIND OUT, play the game.

Talking theory as here and such is good for one thing -- passing the time or filling the ego which I am guilty of both, having spent so much time here already. But my priorities are straight and I mean no one any harm. My greatest foe is myself. I'm never satisfied, and I'm more concerned with failing my expectations then taking a blow or being mated. I don't care about the other guy, may as well not even be there.

[Justa Man]

i agree with both of you...Ev and shaolinboxer. that is such a tough decision to make. dial 911, and lose face in the eyes of your students and possibly lose a few of them too. make dude hurt and risk losing your school entirely and possibly pay some heavy legal monies.
i think i'd opt for ev's route. i'd take the challenge, but i'd do it in a really smart way.
1) make sure witnesses are around
2) make it verbally known that "i don't want to hurt you, so why don't you just get out of my fu(kin school"
3) use an open hand on him which works to my advantage in 2 ways:
-i train in ba gua :)
-in court, i can always say, i didn't want to use my fist cuz i didn't want to really hurt him. i used my palm to slap and get him to come to his senses.
4) make sure he attacks first.
5) strike him once for every attack he comes at me with, so it again looks like a 'defending self" situation.
6) everytime i hit him, repeat, "i don't want to hurt you, so you better leave"
by making him attack first, and by only going one for one with him, i always leave him with the option of attacking again and risk getting hurt, or saying that's enough and going off to lick his wounds. i think this will work well legally, should hius bit(h ass ever decide to take me to court. if he grabs, then i will attack as much as i need to break free of his grab. when he let's go, then i stop. again, all self defense on my part.
I think, if done like this, students who may be watching, see that i didn't back down, but i didn't demolish the guy for wanting to test, which shows the proper humbleness any man with skill should exude. legally, i didn't attack first, didn't want to hurt him, and repeated that i wanted him to leave after everytime i hit him.

but on that chess issue, i don't look to winning, i look to a match that will challenge my strategy, my patience and my overall chess skills. winning or losing is not something i put much desire in. my pops/chess teacher always said one gains nothing in winning. i don't see it similar to martial arts in that respect.

[shaolinboxer]

*sigh*

In chess, no one is at risk of injury, EF.

Man, you sound just like me a few years ago...

[Shaolindynasty]

"your teacher is still learning, no problmes there in my eyes. Its no diffrent then a senior teaching a junior. He's showing what he knows while adding to it."

This kind of how I am. My sifu wanted me to take over his classes so he could "retire" from martial arts. I teach the style he taught me which I am grateful to have learned but I am not satisfied with my current skill level and probally never will be. I am pretty young,20 years old. I don't consider myself a "master" of any kind more like a big brother in the martial arts to my students. I see allot of peoples faces when they see me and say "YOUR the instructor?" because of my age, but usually by he end of class they respect me as an instructor. Allot of people test me when they first come in though they tend to be disrespectful but I usually put them in their place. My sifu used to test me allot he used to woop my @$$ every day in class and after awhile started to bring in black belts from other styles to test me. Once he was satisfied he retired and gave me the class. At first I'll adimit I didn't want the responsibility and just wanted to train myself. Yet I was teaching because he wanted me to. It took me awhile but I figured out that I was learning more about my style teaching people because I had to break down the details in different ways to relate to them and students somtimes ask questions you would never even have thought about. As a whole it's a good experience from me. I will continue to teach but am still trying to gain more skill. The important thing is not to let a small acomplishment like teaching someone to go to your head. I don't have my own school I teach out of the Park and recreation in my area.

Challenges- Strangly enough I agree with EF here(it only happens once in a great while;)) As a teacher you should accept challenges to a point. Walking into a class and throwing down a challenge in front of everyone is the extremely rude way to do it and they deserve to get the crap beat out of them. The challenger in private ask to test the sifu's skills. In any case challenges of any kind don't usually happen out side of Chinese neighborhoods, or really rough neighborhoods.

[TaoBoy]

Back to the original topic: young Si Fus.

When is a Si Fu a Si Fu?

It is my belief that to be a master, one has to be not only a master of the martial arts, but a master of life. I don't believe that anyone without sufficient life experience can claim to be a sifu.

It is more appropriate for these young instructors to use titles such as Dai Si Heng/Da Si Jie or Si Heng/Si Jie. Once they have adequate teaching and life experience they should accept the title of Si Fu/Si Mu.

The inappropriate use of titles is prolific these days and shows a lack of respect for the *real* masters out there. There are 35 year old guys calling themselves Si Gung and other Si Jo. Unfortunate but true!

To conclude, there is nothing wrong with being a young instructor, but appropriate titles is important.

[TaoBoy]

Back to the original topic!

There's nothing wrong with young instructors.
But are they really SiFus?

I believe a Si Fu must be a master of life as well as a master of martial arts. How can one so young claim to be this?

Just because you teach doesn't mean you are a Si Fu.

Perhaps Dai Si Heng (oldest brother) or Si Heng (older brother) is a better choice.

This is not meant to be a terminology lesson - it just seems that more and more people are using incorrect titles. I have recently discovered a few instructors using the title Si Jo (system founder) or Si Gung (grand master) and they are all still relatively very young and have no true claim to these titles.

I wonder how the old school masters feel.

[red_fists]

Hi.

Personally I got nothing against a young sifu.

In my style most of our Sifu are 40+ yrs old. It takes +/- 10yrs to reach that level.
This includes 3+ yrs of direct study under our style Founder(Sijo) and he decides if you become a Sifu or not.

Said that I haven't seen any Student under 18 in my Style yet.

If the skill level and correct attitude is there nothing against a young Sifu.

Personally, I think that any form of title should be given to you by your elders in the style and not be related to your activity in the Kwoon.

As for "master", before we can call someone a master we first have to define the term clearly, until than ....

Just my devalued 2 Yen worth.

P.S.: I also think that MA titles are way overused in today's society.

[TaoBoy]

I too believe a title should be bestowed upon you by your instructor and also that titles are over-used. Unfortunately, in today's society it seems that status is very important. The ego clouds the judgement.

Cheers.

[myosimka]

Personally, any student who feels less respect for me because I dial 911 is one I don't care to have. Challenges are moronic. And where's the line? Inside your dojo? What if someone challenges you on the street as you're leaving? As you walk into the neighborhood bar for a drink? While you're lifting at the local gym? What if your students are there as well? I went out with a group of students one night to dinner and handled a beliggerent punk by getting the manager to throw him out. Not my problem. And I didn't lose a student from it. But if he comes into my dojo I should fight him? So we should practice sound, responsible self-defense except in the dojo? Hunh??? My BJJ and MT instructors will roll with almost anyone but usually they just usher these sorts of people out. Friendly testing of skills-cool. Challenges-stupid.
Plus you never know what the outcome will be. Friend of mine taught kali and WC. Had a challenger come in. He demonstrated the effectiveness of the system on this twit(euphemistically speaking.) in front of a small class of beginners. Guy came back a week later with numerous friends asking for a rematch. Fortunately he mistimed it for the shift between a beginner and advanced class so the friends proved not to be a factor. But it could have easily turned out differently.

But on to the original point of the post. Young sifus.

There are always people better. Always people more experienced. Do they know enough to teach to incoming students? Will students improve under their tutelage? Those are the important questions. No master sprang up in a vaccuum creating the first martial art. Somebody knew how to fight and taught somebody else. It caught on. I have worked with people with over 30years of practice who knew jack. People who spend the bulk of the time in the dojo building up and preserving their egos. I have worked with people who have trained in their art for 5 years. I didn't know anything their so they taught me a ton. Time in is certainly a factor but no means is it the only one or the most important one. Are their students learning? That's the only thing that really matters.

That being said-my experience is that until late 20s people lack the maturity to run a school. Teach a class now and again, fine but run one? Regardless of the time in the art. (There are obviously exceptions but rare) They lack the common experience/understanding of adult life to teach adults. They may know the material but there is a lot more to running a class than that.

[Shaolindynasty]

I think people make to big a deal of this. If you have some knowledge share it.:rolleyes:

The title Sifu means nothing to me, I mean we are all human beings right? So it doesn't really matter. Someone above put there is always someone better. That's true no matter what your age so if that is the meter you go by nobody should teach and that would be nobody learns. Allot of the more recongised kungfu masters in the USA now came over from Hong Kong and began teaching in their early 20's. No big deal.

They knew somthing that others didn't and shared with them. Let's say you're 50 and you have a 30 year old Doctor are you going to ignore his obviously high knowledge about your health because he's younger than you and has less 'life experience"?

If you feel a young person doesn't have anything to teach because of his age, think harder about who has the ego problem.

[Ray Pina]

ShaolinDynatsy, I like your aproach. hey, nothing wrong with being good and young. Great that you still want to learn. Nothing wrong with remaining loyal to your school and teacher and expanding as a human being. Go look around, perhaps you can add to your art.

As for Challenges, I have an idea that could work wonders for a teacher and I would maybe use someday if I ever get to that level.

They want a challenge, fine:

1) Have them sign in. Page one explains that they came willingly to challenge and the school is not liable in anyway. Procede at own risk.

2) Have a senior video the entry, the challenge, the sign in and eventual a$$ kicking.

Now, after 10 years, you can put out a video named: Challenge!

I for one would throw down $35 to see a sifu beat challenger after challenger.


I think one can beat another without taking it too far, but I'm not at a level to say, I'll just hit him once. I'd go at him the same as anyone else, and when I know I have him, take him but end it there. No nasty business.

In the end, the original question of age doesn't matter so much as experince I guess: Do you have the tools to get the job done? If not, what buisness do you have teaching.

As for challenges and where they end, in school, out of school, the store, ect. LIFE IS A SERIES OF CHALLENGES, do you stand up to them, or call 911 (mommy and daddy)?

I could see after a certain point, when you have proven your skill to yourself, that there is no need, but I can't see anyone under 35 claiming to be so sure of their bality. How do you know exactly how you match up?

As for Chess. I love it. I play to win, that is on my mind. But, to do that, I'm not thinking of mate, I'm thinking pawn structure, controlling files, forks, ect. But winning is the goal.

I'm competitive.

[Shaolindynasty]

EF- Thanks for the encouragement. I found a school in Chicago Chinatown. Now I can worship the wonders of chinatown in chicago like you do the ones in NYC! :D

Here's the web page if you want to check it out I am going to learn Hung Sing Choy Li Fut there.

www.ngfamilymartialarts.com

(trying to earn extra suck up points with the school hehehe);)


I am still going to continue teaching longfist here in kankakee for those interested though.

[ewallace]

Age doesn't really matter in my eyes. If your sifu believes that you are capable and qualified to teach to others the material that has been taught to you, that should be the end of the story.

[myosimka]

Calling a cop or a restaurant manager or anyone else is not the equivalent of calling mommy or daddy. It's using the right tool for the situation. And facing up to a challenge sometimes means not letting someone else control a situation by manipulating your ego. It's easy to get into fights, proved that years ago in high school. Staying out of them is a skill I have refined over years. Fight the fights worth fighting.


Working hard is great but smart is better.

[shaolinboxer]

WORD :)

[Ray Pina]

I do agree with you ... to a point.

Having some punk call you out of a restuarant because he wants to fight you because you are treating his ex-girl to dinner would be dumb. You would have lost control of yourself then, and look quite foolish.

Having a martial artists, say a 3rd degree black belt, walk into YOUR SCHOOL, while YOU ARE TEACHING class and CHALLANGE YOU based on his belief that your skill, based on your years of training , is inferior, is quite a different manner.

Forget the school, your student, lawsuits. As a martial artist, two people who have dedicated their lives to the art, "I" believe you should uphold your own honor and the honor of the men who brought the art to you.

Maybe I HAVE watched too many kung fu movies (I have), but this is not about "Kung Fu" to me. To me, its standing up for yourself as a man and practitioner of the martial arts. No longer are we needed to go to war over territory with spears and swords. Self defense? Carry a gun. A knife. Walk around with a video camera a lawyers biz card.

No, this is about mastery and martial arts. Challenge comes. Accept it without blinking. A brave man only gets beat down once by his enemy, a coward beats himself down everyday.

I know many will say this is not about being scared. Well, if that's the case, what is really holding you back. If a little girl knocked on your door and threatned to kick you in the shin, would you call the police? Of coarse not. You'd handle the situation, ask her to leave. If she said no, you push her out the door and close it -- done deal.

Should be no different if a 6'0 200lbs man did the same -- if you are qualified to be teaching an art used for combat. I understand the threat of loosing face in front of students. Hey, you're human. But if you don't stand behind yourself why should your students.

Personally, and my teacher would probbaly be offended, I think he's too old to be fighting every Tom, Di(k and Harry who wants a piece. That's what seniors and disciples are for. But he's younger at heart then myself, strong, fast, incerdible explosive power, and extremely able as he has proven, so none of us are fitting reps yet.

I would like to stand in for him one day, to fight these fights, but the fact that a 60 year old man does so willingly, God, that's why I would not even cosider training anywhere esle. I think I'm training with the last of a certain type of man. A true warrior.

Again. Just my two cents though. Everyone looks for something different in training, studying, performing, ect.

[JasBourne]

Two words: signed waiver .

That's how my school handles "challengers". They have to sign a fat, legaleze-laden waiver absolving the school from absolutely everything, and agree to an "introductory lesson".

We get a couple of tuffguys a month signing up for introductory lessons. WHAM.

:D

[Ray Pina]

Nice. Is it along the lines of having them "join" the school, and then having the school free of fault if something should happen?

Either way, Amen!

[joedoe]

I personally avoid fighting as much as I can, but I believe challenges should be met but in a proper way. After all, we are training in martial arts. I see no harm in challenges as long as they are done respectfully and with the intention of testing/learning - not to do injury to someone.

[red_fists]

Hi.

Personally, I was never at a Dojo/Kwoon where these type of challenges were issued.

Don't know why but it never happened, but than my sifu & sensei always were rather low-key and never made a big hoohah about their schools or their style.

Said that obviously they could take care of any unwanted visitors in the School.
But most of the people that came in and looked a bit "on the rough" side normally were invited like any other Visitor to partake in the class with the rest of the Students.

Most of them never came back or didn't last very long.

Just some personal experience.