Pavel's PTP vs Westside

[Ford Prefect]

I was just wondering if anybody else had tried both of these approaches to training and what you think of each. I'm talking about Pavel's principles outlined in Power to the People and Westside Barbell's conjugated periodization plan. Myself having tried both think that:

Pavel's PTP - Great if you only want to spend 20 minutes in the gym and have no plans to gain any size. It definately works and will help you get very strong.

Westside - Weight sessions will last 40-60 minutes which is obviously more than PTP, but you do different lifts all the time, so you won't get bored doing the same thing over and over. Besides just raising your maximal strength, which it does quite well, this plan also focusses on hypertrophy and explosiveness.

Personally, I prefer the Westside method. I like the fact that I'm not doing the same lifts every day and also the fact that I will gain size and explosiveness. I had nothing but good gains and experiences doing PTP, but I just like the fact that I still have consistent strength gains mixed in with the other benefits as well. Anybody else?

[IronFist]

On the right forum, this could be a violent discussion :)

I've only had first hand experience with PTP. But, all things being equal, which would build strength the fastest (not paying attention to size, explosiveness, etc.)?

(btw, "strength" defined as "the ability to lift a lot of weight."

IronFist

[ElPietro]

If you are talking about strength then the answer is westside.

There are many reasons but one of them is the simple westside philosophy of always trying to set personal bests each time out. Another would be that without gains in size you will eventually maximize your lifts for your size. There is only so much neural adaptation that can occur. Although you can get very, very strong without needing to put on size. But all the strength you gain in PTP you would gain in westside even if you didn't focus at all on mass building.

Basically, if you took someone and made a copy and they both trained in one discipline for say 5 years, the westside guy would lift more than the PTP guy.

PTP, however, has other advantages, some people may find it easier to train PTP in conjunction with one or multiple martial arts.

Those are my thoughts...

[premier]

So you're saying guys, who go to class 6 times a week and weight train only to make themselves better in their art, should do PTP?


premier

[IronFist]

Premier, I would say if you're heavy into the arts you should do PTP. Why? Because you will never, ever be sore from PTP workouts, and therefore fully able to practice your MA.

Wait, one clause, heavy PTP cycling can make you neurologically fatigued. My first deadlift cycle ever I went higher than I should and for a few days after it ended I felt neurologically fatigued (for lack of better way to explain it). A dull ache throughout my entire body, but no muscular soreness ever. I probably just overtrained since I had never DL'ed before.

If you have any PTP questions I'll be happy to answer.

I've never done Westside, btw, but I assume it would leave you at least a little bit sore.

IronFist

[TjD]

ive only had experience with PTP myself (and its working well)

however i'm interested in what westside is all about

peace
trav

[premier]

Ironfist:

Actually I have a few guestions. Is it necessary to buy the book? I mean.. it's pretty expensive. How many times a week you need to go to the gym when doing PTP?

Only 20 minutes in the gym? What kind of lifts you do in PTP?


premier

[IronFist]

PTP is 5 days a week, the same thing every day.

Standard PTP is only two exercises, deadlifts and the side press (kind of like a one handed military press done with the long 45lb bar).

However, my personal modification to PTP is the following:
Squat (or Deadlift, I change them each cycle)
Bench (instead of side press)
Weighted pullups (to get the back and biceps more)

But basically, it's 2 sets of 5 reps, 5 times per day. I could give you the rep scheme here, but there's a lot more than that in the book. The book has a bunch of tricks to squeeze the most strength out of everything you do, as well as variations to the PTP cycle. Maybe if you ask nice I'll put it here, because it's already up at Pavel's site so it wouldn't be like I was stealing money from him.

But right now I don't have time to type it. Ask me tomorrow :)

IronFist

[Ford Prefect]

IronFist,

I have to agree with EP that for raw strength, Westside is the way to go. I don't have anything bad to say about PTP though; it's just that Westside works better.

Premier,

Exactly. If all you want is supplemental strength for your art, PTP is a can't lose program to follow.

EP,

You currently follow either of the methods?

[hkphooey]

westside is the best side....


(i can't say for sure that that's true...but it's pretty fun to say...)

[IronFist]

Yo,

Does Westside leave you sore following a workout?

IronFist

[Drache]

are there any good books on this PTP thing??

[IronFist]

are there any good books on this PTP thing??

The book "Power to the People" by Pavel Tsatsouline. Power To The People. Get it? :)

You can order it at www.dragondoor.com. Amazon has it, too, but there's no discount (at least not last time I checked). It's a bit pricey, at about $35, but considering this book has completely changed the way I have trained for the last 8 months I would say it's well worth the $35 dollars I paid.

If you've got more questions just ask.

IronFist

[ElPietro]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
EP,

You currently follow either of the methods?

Not right now.

I was in the process of developing a kinda complicated periodization routine that would take advantage of some westside training in certain phases. Unfortunately I tore my hamstring twice so I am still seeing a physiotherapist and have only begun to add a bit of resistance to my leg.

I know a lot of ppl online that use the program and I know it works. I don't know if I ever will use westside strictly as prescribed by Simmons, but I definitely listen to what they say and take what I can to use in my own programs.

[Ford Prefect]

EP,

Ouch! Sorry to hear about the hamstring, bro! I guess I could be one of those people online you were talking about. I've been doing a strict Westside program for about 6-7 months now, and I'm blown away from the gains I've made. Hope your hammie heals quickly!

Iron,

Yes, you are occasionally sore following a work out. The way their periodization plan works is that every lift you do assists the other lifts, so you are constantly setting new PR's for yourself in almost every lift rather frequently. Since the supplemntal and assistance exercises are done in the 8-15 rep range, this can lead to occasional soreness.

The way they deal with this is actually quite effective. I'm sure you've heard of the term GPP or General Physical Preparedness. On your off days in training or even right after your weight session, you work on the GPP for the part of the body you just worked. Say I just did max effort lowerbody day on Monday. On Tuesday, I'd do various sled pulls involving my legs, hindu squats in 20 rep circuits, and good mornings using a jump stretch band for around 100 reps. Obviously you keep everything extremely light and don't strain yourself too much or else you will eventually overtrain. However, the extra work whips your legs and lower back right into shape where you won't even be sore after doing a set of 15 Romanian deadlifts for a new PR. The have plenty of article on their elitefitnesssystems.com site that can explain it better than I'm doing here. ;)

[hkphooey]

didn't someone post a westside routine a while back?? i can't seem to find it. anyone know where it might be??? now i'm scoping for info...

EP...sorry to hear about your hammy, bro. that sucks. i myself have developed a bilateral knee pain that no one can seem to diagnose. very frustrating, as it even hurts to walk (let alone do any training). at any rate, i feel your pain. (though perhaps not in the exact same place.)

i really like Pavel and PTP. i'm not in a commited relationship with it though. i'm not fully convinced that it has all the answers.

iron...how has it changed your training?? in terms of sets/reps stuff? particular exercises?? just curious.

Ford...suggested links???

thanks all

[Ford Prefect]

Hehehe. That was me that posted the workout a bit ago. Here's the link to the articles page for Westside. It should have all the answers. Plus there's a Q&A on the root of the site where WSB members like Dave Tate answer questions:

http://www.elitefitnesssystems.com/elite-articles/home/default.asp

http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/

[ElPietro]

Yeah some of the stuff westsiders do I don't have available in my gym. Like reverse-hypers, also no stretch bands...although I could buy those....

Ford you use a bench shirt, and squat suit and all that shiznit? One of the guys I know uses all of that...says it helps a lot. A lot of them are getting into zercher squats a lot as well, dunno if you've tried em.

Westside is definitely good for strength anyway...it's not rare to see guys in the 150-160lbs range deadlifting well over 400lbs, with huge bench and squats, etc...most ppl don't even know what that kind of weight looks like on a bar.

[hkphooey]

i try not to mentally picture things that can crush the life out of me... =)

thanks Ford!

[Ford Prefect]

Oh, and the "periodization bible 2" article has info on their lifting program.

[Ford Prefect]

EP,

Naw, I prefer to lift raw. No chemicals or suits. I'm not looking to break any records or win any meets. I'm just trying to get as strong as possible. I didn't hear about Westsiders getting into Zerchers but I've done them and been toasted by them. I did them a bit ago when I could only back squat 250 lbs (pre-westside), and 115 lbs Zerchers kicked my arse. There is also a variant called the Zercher lift which brutalizes your abs and hammies.

[Ford Prefect]

Ouch...

http://www.westside-barbell.com/images/gallery/joeamato.jpg

http://www.westside-barbell.com/images/gallery/jmbench.jpg

http://www.westside-barbell.com/images/gallery/matt1.jpg

[IronFist]

http://www.elitefitnesssystems.com/elite-articles/home/default.asp

Maybe I'm dumb, but I didn't see any Westside routines there.

IronFist

[Ford Prefect]

http://www.elitefitnesssystems.com/documents/9week-training-program.htm

http://www.testosterone.net/html/133per.html

etc... Just scan through the articles. There is a menu on the right for their articles from different publications/web sites.

[IronFist]

http://www.elitefitnesssystems.com/documents/9week-training-program.htm


I did actually see that one but I didn't like it because it didn't give percentages or anything. For example, this:

One Leg Squats: 4 sets of 10 with each leg
Dumbbell Rows: 4 sets of 6 reps
Barbell Shrugs: 3 sets of 15 reps


That's great. I assume by One Leg Squats he doesn't mean the Pavel kind, because I don't know of anyone who can do 4 sets of 10 that way. My best is like one set of 6. Also, no weights or percentages or any hint as to how much weight to use is given. Do you cycle the weight up over the 4 sets? Down? Same weight? Use a light weight? One that causes you to fail? Time between sets?

Yuck.

http://www.testosterone.net/html/133per.html

This article was better.

You know, I thought those menus to the side were just links to the other sites, not articles at their site. I was like, "boooo, why would Westside provide a link to t-mag?" Now I know why :)

Thanks for the links,

IronFist

[Ford Prefect]

Hey Iron,

I assume when you can squat 900 lbs, then ten one-leg bodyweight squats won't really be that out of the question. You follow the periodization bible for the weight you use. (ie Never work to failure/leave 2-3 reps in the chamber, rest 2-5 minutes between max effort work, rest 1-3 minutes between accessory/supplemental work) My basic workouts are like:

Mon: Max Effort Leg
Goodmorning 5/8, Box Squat 2/8, Deadlift 1/8 (ie 1 week out of 8)
Stiff-Leg Deadlifts 4x15
Pull-down Abs 7x8
Hanging Leg Raises/Superset w/Pistols 4xMax
Dumbell Snatches 4x8

Tues: Max Effort Bench
Board Press 3/8, Floor Press 2/8, Close-grip Incline 2/8, Close-Grip Bench 1/8 7x5-1
Dumbell or Barbell Tricep Extensions 6x10
Weighted Pull-ups 6x8
Face Pulls 3x8
Military Press 3x10
External Rotations 4x8

Thursday: Dynamic Leg
Box Squat (50% 1RM) 8x2 -30 seconds rest
Pull-throughs 6x8
Pull-down Abs 7x8
Dragon Flags/Superset w/pistols 4xmax
Dumbell Snatches 4x8

Friday: Dynamic Bench
Bench Press (50% 1RM) 8x3 -30 seconds rest
Pin Press (top 4" of close-grip bench) 7x3-1
Weighted Pull-ups 6x8
Face Pulls 3x8
Dumbell Press 3x12
External Rotations 4x8

Each workout would take 45 mins give or take 10 minutes