Which leg stretcher?

[jointlock]

There are about 5 different ones that I have seen in catalogs and black belt magazine. Which one is the best?

[ewallace]

Which one is the best?

You are. I have never been a big supporter of those kind of things. You can gain all the flexiblity you need doing standard stretches. Better to spend your money on a heavy bag or some private time with your instructor. JMO

[Silumkid]

I'm pretty much with ewallace on this one...ground/body stretching is A-OK in my book. Besides, using your arms to assist in stretching can afford you the addition of some principles such as PNF stretching. The only stretching aid I ever liked personally was the simple rope pulley.

[anerlich]

Agree with the above. Spend your money on Tom Kurz's Stretching Scientifically or Pavel Tsatsouline's Beyond Stretching.

[Yajirobe]

who needs leg stretchers JUMP!!!!!!!! JUST JUMP!!!!!!!!!!!! man you jives get all this jive that helps you stetchs meanwhile you could just stetch yourself and make yourself an extention.

[JWTAYLOR]

If you are REALLY, REALLY inflexable like I used to be a leg stretcher is pretty handy. Most of the folks on the board have never experienced legs so tight that you can not actually sit without bending your legs, or even lean over without bending your legs.
After my motorcycle wreck and subsequent surgeries, I was that inflexable.

I used the one by Century, the "StretchMaster" or something like that. I liked it just fine, and it helped me get to the point that I could stop using it and just stretch on the floor.

JWT

[jointlock]

Originally posted by ewallace
You are. I have never been a big supporter of those kind of things. You can gain all the flexiblity you need doing standard stretches.
The knees are a joint, and as such they are capable of sustaining much less weight than a straight longbone like the thigh. It is never advisable to attempt to stretch a joint. The joints are not meant to be stretched. So when you stretch using your feet against a wall or the floor trying to do the splits, the amount of pressure that you are putting on the knees is not good, in fact it is dangerous. I have often felt like my knees would give way when doing these kinds of stretches.
Now if you could put the pressure on the thigh bone only, as is the case when using the leg stretch devices, then the amount of stretching you can accomplish is much more, because you are not limited to what your knees can handle, instead you are only limited to what your muscles can handle, which is the reasone we stretch to begin with. Therefore it looks to me like the leg stretch device is the better and safer way to do it. Because it allows you to make progress faster, and it spares your knees.

[jointlock]

Originally posted by anerlich
Agree with the above. Spend your money on Tom Kurz's Stretching Scientifically or Pavel Tsatsouline's Beyond Stretching.
I'm not familiar with those. What are they and where can they be ordered?

[ewallace]

That may very well be. If it bothers your knee joint than by all means do something else. However, thousands and thousands of athletes have plenty of flexiblity by doing normal stretches. Otherwise those leg stretchers would be in every high school, gym and kwoon.

Someone mentioned a stretching tape by Tom Kurz. If that is the tape with the dude doing the splits with his feet on two chairs with a chick sitting on his leg, then I would recommend that too. I havn't looked at it for many years but I remember seeing some good results from it. I think I will dig in my boxes of junk to try and find that tape too.

By the way, where did you copy and paste that from?

[jointlock]

Originally posted by JWTAYLOR
I used the one by Century, the "StretchMaster" or something like that. I liked it just fine, and it helped me get to the point that I could stop using it and just stretch on the floor. JWT
Excellent. The Stretchmaster is one of the 5 that I have seen ads for and that I may purchase.

[jointlock]

Originally posted by ewallace
That may very well be. If it bothers your knee joint than by all means do something else. However, thousands and thousands of athletes have plenty of flexiblity by doing normal stretches.
Well put. I have noticed that. I know a guy who has never had much of a hard time doing the splits, but cannot easily touch his toes. I on the other hand have always found it easy to touch my toes (and then some), but not to do the splits. It must differ from person to person.

Originally posted by ewallace
Someone mentioned a stretching tape by Tom Kurz. If that is the tape with the dude doing the splits with his feet on two chairs with a chick sitting on his leg, then I would recommend that too. I havn't looked at it for many years but I remember seeing some good results from it. I think I will dig in my boxes of junk to try and find that tape too.
If I ever decide to order a tape on the subject I'll conisder it.

Originally posted by ewallace
By the way, where did you copy and paste that from?
Anything I quoted in this thread was from this thread.

[ewallace]

Don't get me wrong I am not saying anything bad about these contraptions. If you really are stuck and think it will help then by all means go for it. By the way, what exactly do you want to be so flexible for? You do know that kicking to the head is generally not a good idea right:) ? Unless of course an opponent is on the ground, then kicking to the head is definitely socially acceptable!

[ewallace]

Considering that most persons who I might possibly ever get into a real a fight with are most likely less adept at dodging a headkick than I am, means it's almost a sure thing that I would land a kick to their head
This is a thought that must get out of your head immediately. You never know who you will be confronted by, attacked by, threatened by.

Most trained fighters can spot that kick from a mile away. Especially as an opening move. If you can get them in the head with a spin kick you will most certainly be able to get them with any hand strike. Think about what is safer for you. Spin Kick to face = Opening up kidneys, spine, back of neck, achellies(sp?), possibility of them catching your leg. Hand Strike = ... well if you hit from your centerline and don't telegraph your intent, you won't leave much open in the way of a target to an unsuspecting opponent. The key word in the above sentence is telegraph.

Generally I don't let a kick go above the groin of an opponent unless they are bent over or turned around, in which case I will usually resort to knees or elbows.

I'm sure others will have some pretty strong opinions on this as well.

[jointlock]

Originally posted by ewallace
By the way, what exactly do you want to be so flexible for? You do know that kicking to the head is generally not a good idea right:)?
Well mainly because people I respect are flexible like that, and can kick to the head. I would like to have that kind of versatility. I know kicking to the head is considered not a good idea. Is that because the opponent can possibly sweep you while doing it? I know it is very difficult to throw an opponent while they are kicking to your head because I have tried that at least twice, and got hit both times. Sweeping may be possible. Now if you catch your opponent off guard you are less likely to get sweeped. I have a freind who spin kicked a taller guy in the head during a TKD tourament and put the guy down instantly. He didn't see it coming. The same guy once tried to kick me in the head and I amost didn't get out of the way in time, so I know that a fast high spin kick can be effective.
The category I would put spin kicks into is the "know what you're doing" category. A person should know what they are doing when executing the technique. They should know that their opponent is offguard, or otherwise not in a position to sweep, or else lacks the skills to sweep.

(EDIT: Rewrote post to better reflect my thoughts.)

[jointlock]

I see you caught my post before I could rewrite it.

Originally posted by ewallace
This is a thought that must get out of your head immediately. You never know who you will be confronted by, attacked by, threatened by.

That's true. You never know how well trained they might be. Good point.

Originally posted by ewallace
Most trained fighters can spot that kick from a mile away. Especially as an opening move. If you can get them in the head with a spin kick you will most certainly be able to get them with any hand strike. Think about what is safer for you. Spin Kick to face = Opening up kidneys, spine, back of neck, achellies(sp?), possibility of them catching your leg. Hand Strike = ... well if you hit from your centerline and don't telegraph your intent, you won't leave much open in the way of a target to an unsuspecting opponent. The key word in the above sentence is telegraph.

Interesting. What kind of attack do they use to strike the kidneys etc. during a high spin kick? I had a very hard time doing it when I tried it.
(EDIT) I also tried catching the leg before but that didn't work. I still got hit by his leg. I'll have to re-examine the idea of high kicks. It seems there's more to the "don't kick high" idea than I thought. So what do you think about a fighter being flexible enough to do the splits? Is this even useful in your opinion? I would think that is still could be for such things as low kicks or sweeps.

[Silumkid]

Re: head kicking...I say never discount any technique. If the opportunity presents itself, I'll use a head kick. If I miss or get hit or swept, it's my fallacy not a fallacy of the technique. I've used head kicks to pretty good effect a few times but it was because I saw the opening, had the speed and timing...yadda yadda. I just find it funny when people say "Don't do x or y because it's dangerous" but I have never heard anyone say "Don't use a right cross because you can miss and get countered" but I've seen that plenty of times.

Food for thinking.

[anerlich]

Try www.stadion.com for Kurz' book, www.dragondoor.com for Pavel's.

Kurz' is cheaper and has much the same info Pavel's does, Pavel's is an easier read. Pavel has several other flex books as well, but the material is pretty repetitive and you don't need them all.

Yajirobe, high kicks are risky, the only thing even riskier are the jumping kicks I *think* you are talking about. Jumping kicks are great for MA demo's, other than that forget it.

You don't need to be able to split to kick to the head. I don't think you NEED to be able to kick that high, and to be honest I think most people want to do it because it looks *cool*, and because there are few sweeter feelings in MA than smacking a sparmate in the side of the head with a well-timed kick. Generally they are a high-risk move and thus to be avoided in real fights, though nothing should be discounted completely. Some sport rules do not allow kicks below the waist and control what defenses are permitted against kicks, and in that arena high kicks may be well worth the investment in time needed to develop them.

I'd rather have 'em and not need 'em than need 'em and not have 'em.

[ewallace]

If you can do the splits then cool. You can never be too flexible. Practice high aim low. In JKD as well as other arts there is a saying...closest weapon to closest target. Spin kicks provide a very powerful blow. I think they are best used (if at all) as a finishing move when your target is bent over, preferrably at waist height. Sure it looks cool in movies to jump spin and kick in the head, but, and it is cliche now, you really do fight like you train. Think about getting into your car at night in a parking garage (or in any confined area for that matter). You can't do a spin kick so your fuked? If they really were that effective on the street then olympic style tae kwan do would be the most effective M/A there is. :)

As far as a kidney shot, well, the easiest way to defend against a spin kick is to walk into it. Think about the power generated at the hip with that kick. That is, the hip as the stiking point. Not much power there. And once it hits, you don't have much balance and your back and side is open for hunting. A good straight punch to the kidneys does not feel good. Definitely better understood once you experience one yourself. Chances the average thug or drunk could pull it off...probably low, but why take the chance?

When the merde hits the ventilator your moves are not going to look pretty. Kicks to the knee won't get you into Hollywood. But a knee that dangles uselessly will get an attacker into the hospital and away from you. That's what matters.

[ewallace]

Originally posted by anerlich
I'd rather have 'em and not need 'em than need 'em and not have 'em.
That is my theory on handguns :)

[jointlock]

Originally posted by ewallace
As far as a kidney shot, well, the easiest way to defend against a spin kick is to walk into it. Think about the power generated at the hip with that kick. That is, the hip as the stiking point. Not much power there. And once it hits, you don't have much balance and your back and side is open for hunting. A good straight punch to the kidneys does not feel good. Definitely better understood once you experience one yourself. Chances the average thug or drunk could pull it off...probably low, but why take the chance?
The average thug or drunk could pull it off? Like I said I COULDN'T EVEN PULL IT OFF. It seems impossible to just walk up (or jump) next to someone while they are doing that type of kick. Maybe you haven't seen people kick the way these guys kick. For one thing their leg is bent when they do it and they hit you with the bottom of their foot even if you have moved in on them. Also they do it so fast that there isn't much telegraphing. There isn't a chance to move in and punch the kidney or do anything. You gotta think that the opponent is moving just as fast as you, or maybe even 3/4ths as fast. If this is the scenario then by the time you notice the opponent is executing this type of kick, you wont have time to move in and strike. You may barely have time to move out of the way, let alone the further distance it would take to move in and strike. And even if you did strike I don't see how you could get all the way next to the opponent, I would think you would still be in the danger zone. I think the foot would hit you about the same time you strike the kidney.
I'll ask my instructor about this type of technique. Perhaps there is some crazy "jump" technique where you jump from being in front of the opponent, to being next to him in the time it takes for an eye to blink. If it is one of those techniques, only my instructor and a few other masters can probably do it, since it's one of those techniques that takes decades to perfect. If that's the case I'll skip it. I could more easily move out of the way, and then counterstrike in a different way.

[ewallace]

The average thug or drunk could pull it off?
I said the chances are very low.

There is an exception to every rule. Sure there are some people who might be able to pull it off. But why walk from LA to New York when you can fly?


Also they do it so fast that there isn't much telegraphing. There isn't a chance to move in and punch the kidney or do anything.
I apologize if I was unclear and sounded like you could do it during the actual spin motion. I sure as hell couldn't pull that off. Any twitch of the body is telegraphing. The moment you leave your feet or begin a twisting motion you twitch. All it takes is a very small step forward to take the brunt of the impact off the kick. That is the point I refer to as being vulnerable to a kidney or similair attack. It is after you land. And you better believe if someone is trained to block very quick punches that they will be able to get an arm up in time to deflect the kick from their face.

Also it depends on the kick. A spinning crescent kick either with a jump or grounded is not as powerful as you might think. I have been caught by one before to the side of the head. It stung but did not knock me out and the guy was off balance when he landed. Tell me, if your kick does not have the desired result (ie: knock the fukker out), what are you going to do as a follow up technique? Especially from the position you will most likely land in? You could be a prime candiate for a take down-bullrush-form tackle-side kick-haymaker...posiblities are endless. If you can actually make contact with someone's head with a spin kick, you sure as hell could have hit 'em in the temple with a phoenix eye or just about any other strike you want.

I won't get into a game of what ifs. If the technique was so effective I would think most arts would include the technique. I have heard even good TKD fighters say that they wouldn't try those things in a real fight.