Body Mechanics of Baji's Stomping Method?

[Water Dragon]

If anyone would care to expand upon the body mechanics, trainimg methodology, and usage of Baji stomping, I would appreciate it.

No particular reason for this question. Just curiousity on a style I respect but have no exposure to.

[Daredevil]

Now, I'm no authority on Baji, but I've been working on the mechanics of the system daily ever since I started it last year.

There's a few types of stomps that I've seen so far. One, the one I believe that's usually referred to as a stomp, isn't really much of a stomp at all.

Sure, the whole body action (I'm reluctant to talk about baji mechanics without emphasising that it's whole-body-actions all the time) does give a nice stomping sound especially when performed by someone who knows his stuff and is issuing "fa-jing", or "fa li" like our teacher says, separating Baji type jing from the typical fa-jing.

However, there's no discussing the stomp without the associated whole-body-movement.

The action, which is present in the typical "single punch" technique that we started drilling from day one (and will never stop drilling at that) and many other basic techniques, is a combination of hand, waist (or rather kua, encompassing a bit more than just our waist) and leg movement.

The movement of the leg or foot can somewhat resemble a stomp, but it is more a change of weight distribution accompanied with turn of the foot. In practising it, you go from a cat-stance/empty-stance in to a horse stance during it. The "stomping" foot is the empty leg, which becomes the forward leg of the horse stance (the horse is not set with the crotch facing the opponent, like one sees in some styles).

However, only when each of these components is perfect and in-sync, is the action correct. You punch out your hand, turn your waist/hips and foot in unison. Also, keep in mind that Baji issues power at close range, or rather at contact, and the effective "time" of applied force is very short. Our teacher encourages us to seek the correct "point" -- apparently a very infitesimal and elusive point of body aligment, force emission and movement -- that, upon finding, will grant us proper capability for "fa li". I feel there's more to be explained, in regards to that "point", but I've not the mastery to talk about it.

Hope this helps! I'm also eager to hear any other Baji stylists try and put it into words. :)

[RAF]

Water Dragon:

I don't think I can give you a good technical explanation. Over the years, I have heard people explain that it is a way to stimulate qi via the bubbling spring point of the foot etc.etc. etc. or to distract your opponent. However, in the higher levels and fighting applications, you really don't stomp.

You cannot talk about the stomping in isolation of the rest of the training. My understanding of the stomping is quite simple: you are training to drop your weight. Baji is a full body system meaning that my punch might start at my fist but it can quickly fold to elbow, then to my shoulder and kau/hip and last might be my head. In the attack this can follow sequentially and adds to why it is used for close range fighting. But it takes a long time to loosen and relax the body in order to completely drop the weight.

I have seen beginners compete to see who can make the loudest stomp. Since their hip/kau area is not relaxed the upper body remains stiff they end up damaging their knees. When you stomp, you have to be relaxed and the body must be connected.

Other training such as bear walking exercises, a rolling earth quake, baji neigong, big spear, and xiao baji jia all serve to prepare the body. Its very hard to acquire that state of body condiditioning and 3 - 5 years is a safe time line (assuming you have an instructor who understands the body mechanic).

My own teacher tells me that he can differentiate the quality of the stomp based on its sound.

BTW, I met Nathan Menaged (? spelling) and it was a nice turnout and fun.

[RAF]

There you go Water Dragon. Interesting Timing. You got two explanations coming from different persons not related by school. I think Daredevil's lineage is from Ma Shan Da????

Anway you can compare explanations. A quick look seems that they are the same.

[Daredevil]

Heh, yes, very similar explanations, oddly enough even when they seemed to digress. :)

"My own teacher tells me that he can differentiate the quality of the stomp based on its sound."

Yes, my teacher says that as well.

As for lineage, I must confess that I don't know. If it helps, my teacher is Lu Baochen, originally from Beijing. The discussion about lineage hasn't really been raised. As I understand, my teacher's teacher (though he may have had more than one), lives in Tibet (!). I'll have to ask sometime when the oppoturnity arises, but so far, I've always had better, more practical questions on my mind when I've spoken to my teacher.

[RAF]

Daredevil:

I saw clip on your website and it looked good. You are correct in not asking about lineage etc.. I've been with my teacher since 1988 and this discussion of lineage really didn't come up until the last 5 or 6 years when our school decided to go public and assure those who were interested the quality of our material. In my early and middle years, we never spoke much and my initiation into baji didn't start until 1992 or 94 and there are many, many things I still lack. But I have seen those who trained continously in xiao baji and the da qiang for 9 straight years (almost daily) and no question the power is there (no magic) but his block is a punch--its amazing. I now traini primarily in baji/pigua and bagua. Each every other day and limit my practice to xiao baji, da qiang, and baji neigong,. Although I have had exposure to some high levels of training in baji its no good unless you get the foundation right. As I get older, more of my training is shifting to bagua.

Good luck in your training and don't sweat the lineage. Questions like those might limit your relationship with your teacher, especially if he is traditional.

[Brad]

The stomp reminds me a lot of how it's done in Chen Taiji. Where instead of stomping with just the force of the leg shooting down(like stomping on someones foot in one of those 6 week self defence classes), the whoole body drops with it. When I do it wrong it either hurts or I just don't make much sound. I've noticed a lot of the older Baji guys I've seen give off a sense of of being very "solid" no matter what they're doing. I feel Xiao Baji has helped me a great deal in my Taiji training over the last few months.

Now if I could just remember my forms... ;)

[RAF]

Brad:

You are correct about it helping taiji. When I first joined up, I had not access to baji (it was taught only to formal students). However, I came for Chen's taiji (lao jia primarily). I have tapes of my Chen's performance before and after training in xiao baji. There is a very marked difference.

BTW, good job on perforrmances in Colombus. Its always great to see An Laoshi and his school. I wish you and your school the very best!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

My Chen training, Mikio Shiriashi as taught by Li En Jou, and also by Ms. Cui Lu Yi.. both instruct that your power/weight is rebounded off the ground as you merge your "intent"/chi into the resulting rising rebounding "ripple" of energy add correct body mechanics and precise timing.. and, the result is a thunderous explosion of power.. Now, that being said, the Timing/body mechanics are maddeningly elusive, but when acheived.. the effect is tangible and self-evident.. As a demonstration Mikio had us wrap him up in our best "Bear-hug" from behind, his subtle "stomp/shake" felt like an explosion that broke my hold and sent me backward a respectable distance while leaving me slightly disoriented..

The stomp, as i utilize it, sets in motion the next movement.. either a subtle shake or an explosive Fa-Jing expression, but the stomp is its initiation.. As the fist pounds the palm and the stomp rebounds from the ground, the Dantien circling reaches its apex.. the relaxed upper body receives this rising energy as we set the upper body mechanics in motion/alignment.. at this point the lead hand's interior spiral picks up the rising ripple and reverses it's spiral outward, powered by a subtle rear-leg push.. Whenever these elements work in harmony, when our timing is precise, that lead hand is capable of making the casual observer, believe in "magic".. (i know i did at first)..

In short, though.. the stomp simply adds to and magnifies your energy as it rises from the ground..

Just another perspective from the Far side.. Be well..

[Water Dragon]

OK, Cool!
We actually have something like that, except we don't stomp with it. We do the ball of the foot shuffle thing with elbow strikes. I can see what would happen if you applied that to punching mechanics. Oww!!!

[hkphooey]

i know i know i know....you can't learn from tapes. and you would think that a hip place like seattle would have lots of MA resources. in reality though, it's kinda limited. anyone have advice on some basic baji tapes? the only ones i know of are hsu's. are those good? are there others?

[RAF]

Honestly, and I know you don't want hear it but you cannot learn how to train in the system without an instructor who knows the proper structural alignment. You also need the encouragement because for years you may not see the progress hope for and teacher will keep you on the mark.

In my experience, baji tapes have to be used in conjunction with a seminar. Thats how we designed the baji/pigua combination tape and the xiao kai men tape (bagua).

You really need a seminar and some guidance. Anyone can learn forms but its the training, posture work, and single moving that critical. On the baji/pigua combination tape we show some of the basic and Adam Hsu's xiao baji tape and pigua 1st form would be worth getting for information regarding the system.

You might have to travel to California for some seminar or Kurt Wong's school in Alaska.

Baji is only a great system if you mastered the basics and its so hard without a teacher.

[hkphooey]

thanks RAF. i guess i knew the answer....i just didn't want to hear it. =)

i hadn't thought of the seminar option...but then that still leaves me on my own to try to work out the proper mechanics, eh??

[RAF]

If you can get a xiao baji seminar and then go back periodically to get checked, you will be in good shape. No one (western or modern eastern) gets out of xiao baji successfully under 5 years (3 years if done daily and 9 times (3 sets of 3). some of the single moving and punching is pretty straightforward. That doesn't mean that people under 5 years don't learn da baji and other exercises (for example, Jason Tsou had a seminar on baji spear training in Los Angles)

There are possibilities so I want to give you some hope. Even those that train directly under a baji master don't do the xiao baji training like they should (based on my experience and what I have seen of others. They talk a good line but don't deliver. My schedule is so varied that I can get in a couple of good months training and then some pretty sporadic xiao baji training--often I will train in a set of Yang or Chen's taiji, baji neigong, and the da qiang exercises). It doesn't happen overnite. You get a piece development here and there. For example, one day you are playing and someone can see the very deep postures in your Chen's taiji or the change in your punches. But it is gradual---like a mathematical step function. So there is hope.

I hope you can find an option to satisfy your curiosity.

[RAF]

". No one (western or modern eastern) gets out of xiao baji successfully under 5 years (3 years if done daily and 9 times (3 sets of 3). some of the single moving and punching is pretty straightforward. That doesn't mean that people under 5 years don't learn da baji and other exercises (for example, Jason Tsou had a seminar on baji spear training in Los Angles) " (

I butchered that sentence pretty badly (i am typing from a laptop in a docking station and my maxium font is crap).. Let me try again. If you can get the xiao baji through a seminar and even while you are training in it, piok up a seminar on more basics, you will be okay.

Jason Tsou's seminar was to be seen as an example. If you had the xiao baji training, you could try to scoot down to his area and pick up da qiang training.

Some of Master Su's tapes have very good basic traiining but I think they are still in Japanese (he has a number of baji schools in Japan).

If I can help you in anyway, please let me know.

[Daredevil]

"We actually have something like that, except we don't stomp with it. We do the ball of the foot shuffle thing with elbow strikes."

Well, Baji does that for elbows too. And oh do I love Baji elbows! Now all I need is some oomph in them. Maybe in a few more years. :)

[Brad]

Some of Master Su's tapes have very good basic traiining but I think they are still in Japanese (he has a number of baji schools in Japan).
My Baji tape from Su Yu Chang is in Japanese but comes with a mini manual printed in English.

[RAF]

Daredevil:

If you go to our article in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts Vol. 8, no. 4, 1999, pp 93-4, we list the translations for some of the footwork:

Xiong Bu bear step
Nian Bu rolling step
Duo Bu stomping step
Ti Long Huan Bu rising change step

The simplified Chinese characters are there too so you teacher could point out similarities and differences.

You'll also find the Bajiquan Sixteen Word Verse, Bajiquan Five Elements: Storing and Releasing Energies; Baji Essentials; and the Basic Stance Work of Bajiquan.

We also list the 3 basic energies (jings) of baji but there are more than three. Rotating the dan tian is partially accomplished through the simple movements of the da qiang but baji also has a different way of storing and releasing energy from the stomach area.

I hope you can order a back copy of the article, if you are interested.

Good Luck.

[Daredevil]

I brought back this dinosaur since I have since learned of my teacher's Baji lineage.

He first learned Baji from Zhang Xuchu, then later more from Han Longquan (the son and student of Han Huiqing).

It's all inhttp://www.kolumbus.fi/baji/lubaochun.htm.

Just crossed my mind. :)

[RAF]

Daredevil:

The photos look great and so does your lineage.

You can't go wrong with baji and chen taiji.

Train well!!!

[RAF]

Wujidude:

I still train baji but feel 20 years behind (skill not physical). I don't think I can catch up. However, the benefits I receive from baji greatly help my taiji and I play much better than I did 12 years ago.

In baji, I basically focus on 3 things: xiao baji, liu da kai (just learned it a month ago), and the da qiang. I keep everything very basic. Once you get passed the xiao baji stance training, it actually is pretty good. What makes it tough is the constant practice of the basics and the need to do it on your own. Although physically demanding (as is every system practiced honestly) there is also a psychological price that is seldom discussed (Liu had the luxury of being rich and having his own personal trainer for over 10 years). Martial arts training is not well supported socially (people think you are crazy and should be golfing or at a spa). I watch the young guys training and they now have at their finger tips the instruction that was so well hidden over the past 20 years. However they have so much to settle in their everday lives (finding a girlfriend, getting a job and fitting the training into the schedule) that it becomes impossible to get deeply into the system. On that note, it really is a dying art.

As far as bagua goes, the basic training actually, just feels good, in fact, very good and its also a fascinating art. Intuitively, it seems to fit very well. On days I get tired of the circle, I drop into the bagua leg routine (or any of the other quasi-linear forms) and the bagua sword and it keeps me happy. I trade them (baji and bagua) off on alternative days but there are weeks in which the schedule doesn't always work.

About 3 weeks ago I went to a highly trained (Eastern/Western) TCM doctor (he does most of our students) and he found my overall health to be in pretty good shape (good pulse reading and no need for treatment). During the past year I have really spent time training in the bagua basics and he also seemed to think it might be related to the practice.

BTW, I don't think there is anything inherent in baji that would prevent you from playing it into your 70s (Miller and Cartmell's Xing Yi Nei Gong book opened my eyes to the possibilities in baji since I see its training very similar to Xing Yi). You just can't train like you did in your 20s. Of all the systems I have studied, I probably understand baji/pi gua the best and feel most comfortable in it knowledge wise. However, I have only got a smattering of what Liu knew about bagua and its prompted my hunger: I want more. You know, Liu was very quiet on what he knew, especially regarding bagua and taiji.

Another thing is that there also is a beauty and flow to systems like taiji and bagua and I am not sure I see it in baji (its beauty lies in its structure and explosiveness). I am a bit concerned about Feng Zhiqiang's take on martial arts training, especially the stomping. Maybe he is on to something and I will be reading him more carefully in the future.

In case you didn't see, here is a clip from Ma Long's website of GM Liu doing baji lian huan and I believe he is in his 60s. You also get a real tiny clip of Du Yu Ze playing lao jia.

http://www.wutang.org/

How about yourself? Are you into Yi Quan and Chen's taij? I bet the Yi Quan training is similar to xiao baji training.

PS: Went back to PA and got a case of the Yuengling beer and two cases of Stoney's (pure grain beer, no preservatives, no sugar and its been that way since my grandfather drank it). If they marketed Stoney's right, it could be the next Rolling Rock!!

Thanks for the inquiry and I hope I have not been too long winded. I am avoiding doing the household choirs today.

[Daredevil]

While on this subject, I could elaborate a little more on what I previously wrote on Baji stomping mechanics. I said:

"The movement of the leg or foot can somewhat resemble a stomp, but it is more a change of weight distribution accompanied with turn of the foot. In practising it, you go from a cat-stance/empty-stance in to a horse stance during it. The 'stomping' foot is the empty leg, which becomes the forward leg of the horse stance (the horse is not set with the crotch facing the opponent, like one sees in some styles)."

This is still true to a large extent, but my teacher just recently taught us a second type of step/stomp to perform the same action. We're supposed to slowly phase into using this step. It seems like a more advanced form of the same, basically just going rather straight down like a more regular stomp, instead of emphasising the turning of the foot. Well, you'd have to see the difference, but my point is that it is a bit more of a stomp than the earlier version. He also said there is a third way to do it, but that's for later. Maybe I'll post again in a year or so. :)

Very cool, but messed up my hard acquired technique. I feel like I just started anew. Baji is tough and humbling work.

As for the other new posts on this thread, interesting reads folks. My teacher often talks about Feng and his taiji skills, so it's interesting reading about him. He's said that after reaching a plateau in his Taijiquan training with someone else, he searched far and wide in China for actual, practical knowledge of Taijiquan and found only Feng to possess a true depth of it.

Keep training, people.

[looking_up]

So this is what a thread is supposed to look like - respectful
exchange of knowledge/opinions.

Thanks to everyone - this was all extremely informative - it's going straight to the printer.