What Kind of Chin Na (Qin Na) is in Wing Chun

[FIRE HAWK]

What kind of Chin Na (Qin Na) is in Wing Chun and do they use any clawing techniques like the tiger claw and eagle claw ? And does Yip Man Wing Chun use any type of claw techniques ?

[yuanfen]

chin na is a function and not a technique or a style.
Cavity and joint work.
Yes- there are lines in Yip man wing chun which utilize
chin na but the foundations are in naturally developed wing chun structure-
so the details are different from eagle claw or taiji.
One does not have to graft other styles into wing chun
in order to do chin na.

[reneritchie]

Hi Fire Hawk,

What do you think?

(I find it easier to communicate when there's some back and forth sharing going on, don't you? 8) )

Rgds,

RR

[Mutant]

Wing Chun techniques are like anti-chin na.

It seems to use a lot of the same understanding of physiology and geometry, but towards a different means or principal.

I can't apply any of the chin na I had previously learned on my wing chun sifu's, the motions automatically neutralize chin na (at least up until the lock is totally secure, but I can never get the locks very far on wing chun people), wing chun basic principles totally neutralize chin na.

Its almost like chin na locks are a puzzle and wing chun is a key.

[yuanfen]

The rolling troll gathers no moss.

[reneritchie]

Most Wing Chun Kuen did not, historically, emphasize Kum Na Sao (Qin Na Shou), but as MW mentioned, Fan Kum Na (Fan Qin Na, or Counter Seizing and Holding). Weng Chun Kuen (a sister and possible partial source system cross-trained by and passed along in parallel to, Wing Chun Kuen), by contrast, is famed for its Kum Na Sao. Most Wing Chun Kuen that does Kum Na nowadays seems either to have preserved it or re-integrated it from Weng Chun Kuen (as Yuen Kay-San did in the 1920s when he studied under Fung Siu-Ching, student of Dai Fa Min Kam/San Kam), or more recently, either integrated Kum Na from other systems (either Chinese or Aikido, etc.), or "figured it out" by having some Kum Na knowledge and looking within the system for its remnants, then cultivating them.

Those that are newly added or come from other, non-related systems do, in my experience, seem almost instinctive for WCK to counter (there's a story that in Guangzhou, the government banned WCK in part because the students proved difficult for police Kum Na to handle). Kum Na that's been in the system for a few generations, however, also makes use of Wing Chun Kuen mechanics, is short and transitional, and can be more difficult to deal with if the users skill level is high.

JMHO,

RR

[FIRE HAWK]

?I bought sifu Joseph Wayne Smiths three books and he says his wing chun is called Ng Mui Pai in the second book he shows alot of Chin Na (Qin Na) in his book and uses a Eagle claw or Tiger Claw he also says that his Wing Chun is not from Yip Man Wing Chun if it is not Yip Man Wing Chun what kind of Wing Chun is it ? I am thinking of taking Wing Chun at Sifu Benny Mengs Wing Chun school in Dayton,Ohio where i live at the Wing Chun Musem he has two lineages of Wing Chun that he teaches Yip Man , Moy Yat Wing Chun and Hung Suen Wing Chun that is called Hung Fah Yi i think that is what it is called. There is not anything here in Dayton ,Ohio ,to learn as far as Kung Fu goes .

[Roy D. Anthony]

Rene also,
There is chin na within the Ip Man lineage, but is regarded as a highly guarded secret.

Mutant Warrior,
I wonder since you cannot entrap your Sifu with chin-na, I wonder if he can trap you in his chin-na?

[reneritchie]

Roy - I tend to get yelled at by some of the Yip Man lineages when I dare say they have Kum Na Sao (even if I point out Yip Man was a detective and probably had to know it to arrest people ;)

Rgds,

RR

[Sam]

Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen Contains Chin-na cavity strikes and anti Chin-na grappling techniques. A multitude of Chin-na and anti grappling technques and concepts are throughout all the forms including the weapons sets. The weapons sets shows how to tie up the opponent within the weapons. Special clawing exersices are done to develope strength and finger energy. Fut Sao clawing is done with internal to emphasise the pointing. Fut Sao uses jars and pole's as well as sand, mug beans, paper, and a specialised clawing dummy.

[FIRE HAWK]

What in Wing Chun would be considered Chin Na (Qin Na) Techniques what hand motions is it things like Bong Sao, Pak Sao,Lop Sao ,the snake hand technique that is in K.T.Chao books Secret Techniques of Wing Chun or is it found in the Chi Sao sticking hands ? I know about the cavity press things those things from Dr. Yangs Chin Na books i read those.

[yuanfen]

There is learning and there is learning. Wing chun does not need to import chin na from anywhere else. All in good time. First one learns one note and then finally play the piano-effortlessly.

[yuanfen]

wing chun really rocks. Players vary. Artists vary.
Some paint by numbers others dont. The beginners palette may not have the chi na colors. Patience on the path.

[reneritchie]

Note: If it's called Chin Na, its probably not from WCK, but something added in or adapted. In WCK, those types of skills aren't called Chin Na (just like Chi Gung isn't called that in WCK ;)

Cup - I can't speak for all lineages, but it mine, the skills were pretty well tested by Yuen Kay-San's teachers. They were both arresting officers (Ngao Mun Bo Tao) during the late Qing dynasty. Fung Siu-Ching in particular was very famous for using that type of thing (he couldn't injure or kill every criminal he was sent after).

Rgds,

RR

[yuanfen]

chinna like kung fu--- have become part of common contemporary language. These coomon denominator terms do not indicate the details of the art. Neither do the names completely describe the action. Wing chun doesnt stop with fists and palms. It is as close quarters an art as there is.
Hurting cavities, joints and related and very close quarters
digtal controls(for self defense) are built into the forms. One does not have to walk around witha surgically attached appendage from another sysem. IMO- others are welcome to theirs.
Examine the forms with the equivanet of chinna in mind---
there is gold in them thar hills.

[hunt1]

EmptyCup

You could not be more wrong.Everything is in WC if you know where to look and what you are looking for.
WC is the only martial art I have ever trained in.I have fought and trained with UFC and K-1 competitors and many other skilled martial artists.I have fought from my back on my feet and everything else.I have fought with protection and with no protection.I have never been given a reason to study another art.WC has always worked.perhaps you need another teacher or need to look at the system in a different way.

Do you know the whole system including the weapons?Many of the most advanced skills are hidden in the weapon forms.

I agree that to understand WC you must use it vs other styles.WC is conceptual so we must learn to adapt the concepts to different situations.How ever everything is in the system.

[Roy D. Anthony]

However harsh Whippinghands answer is, I have to agree with him on this one Emptycup....sorry!
Wing Chun is a Martial Art....perfect depends on the individuals and the Sifu that teaches them. But the system itself has everything like Hunt1 and yuanfan says. it's a matter of finding it...I've always professed this. Complete martial arts include grappling and chin na in them, and wing chun does just that.

[black and blue]

Not wanting to argue (:)), but where in the forms does it teach you to escape the mount if some fat SoD is sitting on your chest, squeezing the air out of your lungs and pounding your face?

I've just taken part in a seminar on ground fighting (given by my Wing Chun instructor). Where in the forms do you learn how to deal with a bear-hug from a 320lbs guy as strong as an ox?

Don't talk about double low palm from the rear in SNT! When there is no gap between you and your opponent and your arms are pinned by the attacker behind you... well, you are in trouble. You need to learn... wait... before I explain what I was learning, tell me about what the forms recommend. :)

This post isnt' an attack on WC (I study it and love it). I don't agree with everything EC says, but I would very much like to hear what Roy and WH (or anyone else) has to say regarding this issue.

Please... no talk of "you must look to the forms". Someone offer real explanations.

Many thanks,

Duncan

[yuanfen]

You mention your wc instructor's seminar without telling us what
specifically you/he did or are talking about. That is some name dropping - without a name or without specifics. The wing chun forms are NOT a collection of techniques but represent gates to mastery of the widest repertoire of motions in the martial arts.
Much depends on who you are and how much good wing chun you were taught and you learned & how much of the forms have you really mastered- as opposed to mechanical applications where the motions have mastered you.
Shuai Chao, grappling etc were the original Chinese martial arts-
the foundations in developing TCMA. A good TCMA like wing chun
prepared folks for turning, rolling, bending, throwing, reversals,
breaking holds and chokes and deflecting blows from horizontal or vertical positions. Good practitioners of wc didnt plan on playing
66 and 69 with other males on the floor for half and hour etc on padded floors.
Because of the selling job that bjj/ufc etc have done folks are extra curious these days. So I take time out to show my students-
do it myself and have them get the feel- of dislodging people on
their chest or defending and pounding on them when they are supine or dealing with rear or frontal grabs and chokes.
If you have mastered slt and chum kiu- not just knowing sequences and are well into understanding biu jee, you master both vertical and horixontal platforms and turning the body ina wide variety of ways- disturbing the other fellows center while maintaining yours leaving your hands and legs relatively fre(you learn) to control the other fella when you are disturbing their structure. The fella on top of you has to have a structure in order to
control you. Disturb it and control yours. Without fingerpointing, I for one would be very happy if people who want to learn bjj if they would go to bjj and exit wing chun. Advantage- good wing chun.Too many half ass cases of understanding wing chun any ways- present company and the moderators of course duly excepted per pc and netiquette.. Learn the ways of good reptiles including crocodiles, alligators- they do some neat biu jee on the ground and in water..They play games of relaxed balance and
manipulating centers and leverage while remaining dangerous- biu jee lives. Ye of little faith----(make the other fella black and blue- me? Lily white- oops golden brown.(sorry no proofreading of fonger/typo MISTAKS
Golden brown yuanfen

[jon]

EC
First off I dont study wc so i guess i can be unbiased in that respect.
You start off well, you obviously see the flaws in your own structure and movement and are prepared to work them out.
"Our system is far from perfect. We DO NEED to look elswhere if we are to be better fighters."
* This is true for any system and is requried to open the eyes of a student to the possibilitys. WC Chin Na may be excerelent, but is it as good as Eagle Claw? Is Eagle Claw as strong as Wing Chun up front in close?
"Then you get into trouble when you say this.
Anybody who thinks WC alone is enough has yet to open his eyes"
* Of course its enough, if it wasnt it wouldnt still be around!
This doesnt mean it will be flawless or totaly unbeatable, it just means that you need to as a fighter work out what parts your missing and learn to build them up.

The point is this...
You DO need to work out your weak spots and flaws but you dont need to study other arts to fix them. You need to realise what your weak areas are and then work to fix them. There is everything within your system to have excerlent Chin Na skills the trick is to just learn to apply the principles.
If you dont work them often enough in class then try to get some training buddies aside and work them together.

As a side note...
Ive seen the chin na in several systems and i can draw one conclusion.
Its all the same stuff with a different feel.
Same basic locks but the method for getting the opponent into them will vary according to the principals of the style.
It all basicaly comes from Shao Chao at some point anyway. That stuff has been around since the dawn of time.


P.S
Nice post Yuanfen

[black and blue]

Sigh!

Every encounter is different, but, as posted (please feel free to post a response to this in the Whipping Hand and Roy thread)... I have no idea if you're an aligator!!!

I gave two hypothetical questions. The need to escape the mount and the need to deal with a bear hug from behind. The latter is best examined more from the perspective of a choke, where you will be grabbed from behind choked and, invariably, pulled backwards or hit in the back/ribs.

If I asked how you'd deal with a straight punch, you'd give a bevy of possible alternatives. So, please give a few for the above situations.

But please keep in mind, the guy that sits on you or takes you from behind (this isn't meant to sound rude :)) will almost always be stronger and heavier than you. He'll never stand there and hug you - his aim will be to tear your head off at the neck or pulled you backwards.

Also, i don't know how I can be name dropping if I don't mention my instructors name :confused:

Mechanics and body leverage are vital. But you are in trouble whether you know these or not. How much time in class do you spend dealing with the above attacks, Yuenfen?

Perhaps, if you're teaching this on a regular basis, my complaints are ill-founded.

What irks me is talk of "all the answers are in the forms", yet those beginning their journey in Wing Chun should be well versed in this low and nasty fighting (ground work). How often do WC classes teach this?

My Sifu CAN fight on the ground, but he makes it clear to all his students... this is the last place he wants to fight someone in the street. It is simply too dangerous/easy to lose control.

I don't know how big WH, Roy, Yuenfen are :D Maybe you guys are huge. I train with a couple of guys who are 17 stone and build like a brick wall. When one of these guys is intent on choking you, smashing your head against the floor... well, I'd love to see a technique, concept from a WC form (all of which are practised standing up) used to counter it.

That isn't sarcasm by the bye, I'd "really" like to see it.:)

The seminar I spoke of used wc motions and concepts, and also made a point of utilising leverage and body mechanics. Some of those concepts are pure ground work. WC doesn't have as many ground fighting skills as BJJ. There can't be anyone on this forum who would argue with this. WC is not lacking (I believe its concepts can be applied to most situations), but some martial arts clearly specialise in areas where WC is weak.

So, in short, (sorry for the long post), what WC application will reverse the mount, deal with said chokes, strangles etc, when someone twice your weight has managed to take you to the floor?

In many ways, I know I'll not get a real answer to these questions.:(

[whippinghand]

black and blue,

That's the problem with most so called martial artists, always looking for the "perfect" techniques.

But to satisfy your request on some level...Bear hug from behind... Chum Kiu principles and motions.

(I think yuanfen had your ground one covered.)

[reneritchie]

My 2 cents...

Just to clarify, Kum Na (Chin/Qin Na) involves "seizing and controlling", which is usually inclusive of joint attacks (locks), muscle attacks, airway attacks (chokes), and blood attacks (strangles). Some would include Hei (Qi/Chi) attacks and Dim Mak/Sut (Dian Xue), though these require knowledge of some aspects of TCM.

Sut Gao (Shuai Jiao) involves "wrestling", typically throws (similar to what would be seen in Judo nage-waza), though they tend not to be "sportified" and instead of going for a nice, clean "ippon", they try to drop on the head or shoulder or somewhere else likely to cause great injury on impact.

In my experience, and historically speaking, WCK contains both of the above, though the repetoire is not as extensive (overtly, some will find more through implication) as in a system exclusively devoted to one or both of them (only so many hours in the day).

While there are some Chinese systems with groundfighting (ne-waze in Judo), such as elements of Joy Kuen (Zuiquan, Drunken Boxing) and Dai Dong (Great Earth), it is not typically practiced to the degree that it is in an art like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (which is probably 60-70% ne-waza).

Historically, this does not seem to have been part of WCK, or many Southern systems in general (nor would you find many claiming it was, much less practicing it, before the early UFCs). WCK is not limited, nor is it limitless (and it's not a [prostitute], available for all situations - I'm sure someone can claim the butterfly kick is in there, or the hippy dance number, but they'd be wrong ;). It's a specific art, from a specific time and place, which developed to suit the needs of the people using it at the time (who spent most of their lives in cramped boats and were involved in the Red Turban Rebellion).

This, however, doesn't mean WCK *can't* be used effectively on the ground. It is a highly conceptual system, based on sound reasoning, and employable by humans with roughly the same types of limbs and articulations). But it means someone wanting to do so would have to be bright enough to translate the concepts from standing to prone, and committed enough to work their @$$ off cultivating them.

The one draw back would be, while many WCK sifu have extensive (even generations of) experience in standing (even standing grappling), can share their wisdom, point out common misconceptions, little details, important tactical considerations, etc. (in other words, coach as well as teach), few have ground experience yet, and so that means even more work for someone wishing to excell in that manner.

To give an example, think of a BJJ person (which does include strikes) saying they could extrapolate WCK's expertise in the stand-up arena all on their own (maybe they could, but it would be a hecklacious ( ;) ) task, and involve some amount of re-inventing the wheel).

The kuen kuit said to improve you must fight great generals. Many WCK people have a false impression of ground fighting because they train it with other WCK people, or with novice grapplers, as a way of assuaging themselves. IMHO, Hunter's (Hunt1) method would be the best - workout with experts. Train with someone of roughly the same size and build as yourself, and with roughly the same experience ground fighting as you have WCK (not just years but hours in those years). Relax, get used to how things look from the ground, how they feel. If you find yourself reverting back to brute strength, slow down, remind yourself of your alignments, re-familiarize yourself with your power generation and rooting and figure it out from a prone position. Get used to having someone's weight on you, to being smothered, and then try to understand what the ground strategy is all about, and see if your ability to attain position, transition, control, and either escape back to your feet (some WCK people's preference) or try and finish from the ground (& pound). Probably also worthwhile to do the same defending the shoot from a like wrestler and the throw from a like Judoka. Maybe some hybrid MMA as well. Then you can honestly see what your WCK can do for you in those situations (its artist as much as art), and work through any problems in training so they don't prove disasterous in real life.

(And B&B - some may tell you things like the bridge/upa can be found in the last section of Biu Jee, but again, this is out of context and not technical match and it would take specific training to be able to apply it properly to reverse the mount 8) )

Rgds,

RR

[black and blue]

You crazy whippers! :)

You guys are no doubt high level in your skill, but some of the answers you give are LOW LEVEL! :rolleyes:

I wonder if you guys have ever had someone twice your size sitting on top of you. ****... wish you could have flown over to the UK, joined our organisation and then participated in the seminar.

For any who claim I name drop... you are right. Here's the name of my sifu. Kevin Chan. Our website is www.kamonwingchun.com.

So there!;)

The best fighter in the world can be taken down, and the best fighter, once on the floor, can find himself in an arm-bar. You've got to be aquainted with the techniques and know how to deal with them.

If people DO teach this in their clubs... great. If you don't you'd better hope you never get someone skilled in ground fighting in front of you.

Kevin Chan is the first to say his chi sau skills, WC strikes and angling are the basis of his success on the floor... but he still trains to deal with everything a skilled ground fighter can use.

But hey, I'm bound to support him, he's my sifu and one of the quickest, toughest, most effective fighters I've seen. My money's on Mr Chan. (not that I'm a betting man you understand)

:D

As a note, Kevin has even found WC guys will rush in rugby-tackle style during Chi Sau out of frustration. You gotta know how to deal with these monkeys (monkeys being my word - not his). Even through sheer luck they may manage to take you down, and the ground is a HARD place to be

Duncan :)

Opps... Just seen Rene's post before my own (adding on this bit). This is validation - I win - Dunc's the best!!:D

RR knows far more than I do, and so on the points I'd previously disagreed with... I conceed. Training the ground is what really concerns me. And I kinda like Empty Cup for having the balls to say out loud the majority of us here would get our bottoms kicked if the fight went horizontal.

If WC's arsenal has fewer ground fighting weapons, this is an area we should spend considerable time working on if self defense is the reason for us training.

In truth, I'm just *****d I couldn't answer the Staff threads. I'm a million miles away from learning the weapon sets.:( I spent 2.5 months in Ottawa 12 months ago. Where the heck where all you Wing Chunners hiding????

:p

[yuanfen]

Black and Blue sez/asks:I wonder if you guys have ever had someone twice your size sitting on top of you. ****... wish you could have flown over to the UK, joined our organisation and then participated in the seminar.
-------------------------------------------
Answer- yes- a 300+ pound state hgh school wrestling champion and others
and if you only depended on "grappling" skills- you would be done. You dont grapple a grappler- learn first class wing chun from a first class wing chun instructor! Dont paint by numbers and dont borrow someone else's road map and dont think in linear fashion.

[black and blue]

So you too know what it's like to be squashed!:)

So.... what WC Chun motions/concepts from the forms did you use to get this monster off. This is the purpose of the thread after all :)

Duncan

[hunt1]

Thanks for the nod Renee.

Black and Blue.Dont know what you were taught at your seminar.Here are a couple of places to start learning WC from your back.

First do Chi Sao from your back with someone mounted.You will start seeing the possibilities from here.
Work from 4 positions regular mount,side mount,mount where the knees are up at your armpits and no mount but rather leg submissions are attempted(this is the hardest thing to deal with btw).
Remember always move to cover your center line,always attack towards your opponants center line.You cant reach his face but can his groin.Fine its all on the center.

My pet peeve and you mentioned this in another line.Its hard to learn to fight when a teacher holds back or you havent learned all the forms so dont have all the techniques at your disposal.

You do need some Bil Jee understanding.How to recover your center.Often after a take down you have lost the center and you must regain it.

I dont know how to resolve the information problem.A student may not be ready for chum kiu but they need to know some of its concepts for self defence.Some teachers teach them and some dont.

[black and blue]

Ta for the heads-up! Will play with some of these ideas.

I'm training quite regularly and I'm lucky in that our organisation isn't one where knowledge is held back. If your WC is improving and your putting in the effort - you're taught what you need.

The seminar I was speaking of was on a hard wood floor. No mats. I'm black and blue to the power of 10 :)

This is a great way to train - no false sense of security when the ground is heading towards you. The seminar was excellent. Four hours of work involving the clinch, bear hugs, chokes, strangles, pinning, tackles. Lots of good tips for breaking structure to gain enough distance to go to work with elbows, fingers, nasty attacks to the throat.

Suffice to say it was a sweaty day full of laughs, bumps and, of course, a little pain here and there. I ached like you wouldn't believe the next day. I can tap-out quicker than anyone else in England. 8)

Practising SNT in the evening felt like I had iron weights on my arms and neck:)

[reneritchie]

Hunter - No worries 8)

B&B - WCK and BJJ are not as dissimilar as many may think (we're all humans, after all ;) ). BJJ's core strategy (if I understand it right) is to close, attain superior positioning, control, and finish. They work on leverage, balance disruption, interception (positions that cut off the opponent's ability to continue attacking), work on developing contact reflexes, etc. The main difference, IMHO, is emphasis of tools. They also have a lot of experience on the ground, and a very full database of what can happen there, what can go wrong, etc. which would take someone less familiar some time to work out. That being said, many of their strategies can also show how to apply WCK on the ground (which isn't that dissimilar to how it's applied standing once you've gotten comfortable). The key, IMHO, is to practice several different escapes, and to practice them against good people. Getting "Joe Nobody" off the mount will be a lot easier than a BJJ purple belt who can "ride" you and attack any little mistakes you make (and working against wrestlers, even good ones, is not always the same thing since they typically go for a pin rather than a submission, so you don't have the additional pressure of incoming chokes or joint attacks - though you may have neck cranks or cradles or other nasty stuff to worry about). One thing to your advantage is, unless the person has done vale tude/nhb/mma they're probably not familiar with defending against strikes when their mounted, and even fewer are probably familiar with defending against WCK type short power (so even if they know not to give you enough space for other types of punches, you may have enough for WCK), so you should use every opportunity to smash away with those (in training this may prove less effective since some people won't believe you could really hurt them and you may not be able to prove it given the confines of training).

If a person is skilled in the mount, you may have to go from one escape attempt to another until one works (they get disrupted enough or confused enough and you get out). Then, again as Hunter mentioned, you should play with different types of mounts (high with knees under your armpits, low with legs grape-vining yours and arm(s) around your neck, half-mount with one of your arms crossed over your own neck, etc.)

(Then, of course, you have to make sure you don't end up in the half-guard, knee-on-stomach, in a single or double leg takedown attempt again, etc. so its more experience, experience, experience!)

(There's also the whole realm of biting, eye-gouging, groin attacks, etc. which can be effective but you have to keep in mind the mounter can use those too and are in a superior position to do so (the guy who came in second in the Australian UFC won two fights by sticking his chin into the eyes of the people he mounted and getting the submission), so work on defense for these as well ).

The important thing is not to kid yourself. If it concerns you, you have to try it and work at it and keep working at it. Just because someone says WCK can do something, doesn't make it true (it may be, but like the saying says, you may be tricked!), or true for you (maybe WCK is fantastic for something but you don't have the skill yet to do it - can't blame WCK!)

Rgds,

RR

[black and blue]

Many thanks for the comments. This is what I was after - some honest comment regarding WC and some advice for training ground work.

Too many people on this forum claim to know - and fail to give any evidence :) I'm a beginner in this art and would never claim overwise, but I give a question my best shot.

"Australian UFC won two fights by sticking his chin into the eyes of the people he mounted and getting the submission" - Ha Ha Ha... nasty!

On a seperate note, there's a WSL club opening close to me. I was chatting to the guy in charge of the org here in the UK, and he said it would be cool for me to turn up every now and again and train (despite the fact I'm not of WSL lineage).

WC politics are not so bad here in the UK!:D That said, maybe they just wanna thump me!!! :eek:

What's it like in the land of the leaf? Do you guys ever meet up to train? There must be hundreds of you living in a 10 mile radius.

[reneritchie]

B&B,

No worries. Maybe it's okay info, maybe not. Like anything, you'll have to work on it and find it.

One quick note on the mount: It's not always a great position. You have to understand the ratio of torso vs. thigh. If you've got a really big chest or gut, and the other person doesn't have really long thighs (enough that they can touch their knees to the ground and base on both sides while mounting you) its going to be *much* (much!) easier for you to get them off. Knowing this, a skilled grappler might prefer getting you in some type of gatame (side control family including scarf holds, etc.) because it will be more stable for them. So you should work on overcoming these as well.

Leaf country (otherwise known as the great frozen north today <shiver>) is pretty good. Back in the early 90s I was more involved with the Chinese MA community but soured on it due to the petty politics. Since then, I've actually met up with more US based WCK people. I did have a chance to meet up with Roy, Patrick, and few others at a recent tournament, but family obligations meant I couldn't hang very much 8(

Rgds,

RR

[yuanfen]

you asked me a question. Answer yes. I was not squashed.