Questions for Paul Lin

[Tainan Mantis]

Any help you could provide would be much appreciated.
1. Who created 7 hands?
2. Who created lipi?
3. In GM Wei's public book he lists the keyword formula for wrestling hands PM(shuai sho tang lang). Why is that?
4. In the video your dad brought to the states is a 2 man form that TJPM calls Big Open Gate (Da Kai Men).
It also includes the partner set Pai An which TJPM calls Little Open Gate.
As far as I know only TJPM uses the term "gate" to describe these partner sets.
Is Big Open Gate still taught in 8 Step?
Does it have another name?

Thank you for your time

[EARTH DRAGON]

I am also curious to learn more about master Wei, you said that your father trained with him? when and where? How long? did you know my teacher shyun kwan long (james shyun)? who is the real diciple and sole inhertior of the 8 step system? how many other tudi did master Wei have?

[PaulLin]

I am in public lib. now, no much time left for me. I will generally tell you what I know off the top of my head form the fast glance of your ques.

Seven hands and Li Pi existed only in 8 steps and they are called small boxing forms. There are 4 total small boxing forms. In 7*, no such form is found. All 8 step forms are created form Jaing and 2 other masters. Feng is the 1st person trained in 8 step. The small boxing forms are made for beginners to polish up to met the requirements. If by the time Ta Fan Che was learned and the most main requirements was not met, one should not start to train in the main 6 chapters Chai Yao.

GM Wei has 3 different edition of books published. My father have all prints. He was a co-editor of all of them. The term TJPM please spell them out so I can continue. Shuai Sho mantis is one of the oldest form of mantis and it does not mean wrestling hand in this case, although people not inside the system will make that mistake easily. It basicly means trowing hands as the technique of how early mantis hand was attached to the attacking arms.

My father is the head disciple of both GM Chang and GM Wei and has been with them daily for 30 years not just as a student, but also close friend. There are nothing hidden between them and my father. See the photo at prayingmantiskungfu site, they pretty much speak for themselves. I need to leave now, librarians is getting on my tail.

Talk more later.

[EARTH DRAGON]

Thank you for your response. I have many questions for you, But I wont waste your time by asking all of them.

But I would like to know where you are located, what site where you talking about when you said prayingmantiskungfu site? did your father know my teacher shyun kwan long. He claims that he is the sole inheritor and head diciple of master Wei from taiwan. I would love to hear your veiws on this matter. He has also said that he has the books of the system from feng hua yi that where wrote about the ba bu system. And he is the only 4th generation GM. As some of his students are 5 th generation is this 100% true? Or is this not correct? thanks you in advance

[MonkSanTe]

I believe the site Mr. Lin is referring to is: www.prayingmantiskungfu.com

[PaulLin]

EarthDragon:
First of all, you name I heard that Shyun gave you, I remembered the I-Chin " the book of change" under the 1st sign it mentions about the dragon under the earth, maybe you should take a look.

Shyun has learned alot alright, but no one ever taught him. He just mimic form others(but they are mostly good martial arts). But he must make up all the not understand parts since he can't formally asking them. That is why he is different form others and mix alot movements that is not belong to 8step into his system. GM Wei never taught him.

Just think that did he ever show you any pictures of GM Wei? (if GM Wei was so close to his family in relationship) Did he ever show he and GM Wei together on same picture? Did he ever show any of his young years of 8step practice pictures?(his parents should be so proud of him) Did he ever show you any things(like trophies or documents) to show he won any martial art contest? Did he ever tell you the location and time he has being a Chinese Medical professor? Did he show you any documents of his teaching at the Taiwanese Marine Crop?

I know that you are very respectful to your Master, but that is were you are vulnerable and can be cheat on. I can tell you that he don't have any of them. Try it yourself. Master Wei will never fool the public with a specially made less quality system just to save the special better one for only one. That will be very dishonerable. What kind of human beeing do you think GM Wei is? His shifu Feng don't have 2 different systems, so is the rest of the anccestors, why should he create that? In fact, that is the cover up for his own made up skill form his peeping of other artists since he knows that his fake stuff will not be the same.

My father has been with GM Wei since Shyun was only 2 and a half years old. Chat with GM Wei daily until 1983 (about 30 years with GM Wei). And my father was GM Wei's good friend until 15 years later that some students brought up the Tudi issue. GM Wei said that he don't want to enforce on the Tudi relationships, it is no use. Shifu and Tudi should see each outher heart to heart like a faimily, calling not important. If the heart is not there, the Tudi can be acting very respectful in front of Shifu, but done other wise when shifu turned his back. If the heart is there, even no calling shifu to him, he will be happy because he knows that you will do anythings just like he would doesn't matter when and where. So he said if you must choose the tudi system, I will have my elderest student who knows me and my art the best as the head of my disciple. There, my father was made the head of the disciple of GM Wei. Then again, I have more picture that not yet on the site(thanks MonkSan De, that is the site you can find our photo), the pictures are a part of real proof.

I understand that if it is not because of Shyun, you probably will never find 8 step and Shuai Chiao. But I think God has let him to serve the purpose of introducing these arts. If you want true one, you must look some where else. You can go to his source rather than taken form what his own interpretations of what he stole.

He said he have the book of Feng, did he ever show it to you? Yet, you don't read Chinese, Let me tell you, there is no secret book(it is a common fiction tale in Chinese stories of martial art). Just think where will he get it from, GM Wei? GM Wei was hung up side down by the Communists for 3 days and escaped with NOTHING more than his own innercloth (they even stripped his shoe off). He has brought nothing to Taiwan but merely his own life when he arrived. There will be no chance of any Feng's book here. Have a Chinese inspect on that book, it is definitely a fake to my point of view.

If you would like, you can ask Ilya in Taipei, Taiwan to help you to see if Wei was really lived in a mountian and if his family was really rich back in 50 years(he was never rich until he married his rich wife). All documents should still sit there to be found. Ilya can probably ask his master Zhou to help, Zhou is really GM Wei's late student.

And yet, Shyun never dare to claim his fake when GM Wei was alive.

Plus, to put your own faimly name on top or your master's art is considered betray the master. The family name should be added by others it indicate different of other students and later on becomes a common calling, not named by your self. Did he has Shyun's Taichi? I know that there was a different Master Wei called Wei Kuang, he was embarrassed by GM Wei Shiao Tong and never dare to show up again. He taught Shyun's father some Taichi as my father can recall. If you want to know that story, I can ask my father.

I hope you will find the truth, after all, you are a very serious about respecting and protecting your shifu. This is much as I can tell you now.

If you have any more questions, I will be happy to tell you what I know.

[PaulLin]

Tainan:

I think my father has gave out 2 of 2 man forms. I don't know which one you are referred to since I cannot see the vedio on the web(don't know why, just never work in my computer).

They should be 7 hands and Li Pi 2 man forms. There is no Da or Shiao Kai Men named in the form. The forarm opening is called Ke Shou. Then moved to TangLong ShihShe. Both 2 man forms opened the same way.

However, the 3rd 2man form--Puo An--not open the same. And they can all be changing to the other partner's move (like person A do part 1 and B do part 2, can be changed during the last movement into A do part 2 and B do part 1).

Is it TJPM=Taiji Prayingmantis? I didn't get that in the first place, I spelled Tai chi instead. Yeah, I never know about TJPM, it is a new name to me. Do TJPM adding internal art's aspects into mantis also? Since the 3 main internal arts are TaiChi, HsingI, and BaGua, I wondered if TaiChiChuan was added into TJPM. 8 step didn't add TaiChi, although GM Wei does know Wu style.

[Tainan Mantis]

Paul,
You are correct TJPM is Taiji praying mantis. It is closer to mei hwa than it is to 8 step or 7*.
On this board Mantis108 studied with the GM of this style while he was growing up in HK. (But, it has no relation to the more famous 7* of HK).
He can give more details.
I think Ilya is also TJPM , but from a different lineage.
Hopefully they will clarify as TJPM isn't my main style.

In TJPM pai an is called little open gate-hsiao kai men. It is like the 8 step version on the video tape.
On my copy of the tape are some other partner forms of people in Taiwan. I assumed it also was from your father. Mantis108 said one of the other 2 man forms on the tape is called big open gate in the TJPM style.
Here in Taiwan I have never heard of big open gate.

I know 7 hands partner, but it is not on my copy of the video.
It and lipi are from GM Jiang Hwa Long you say? That is what I thought, but you are the first person I've heard say it.

As for shuai sho PM I call it wrestling hands for lack of a better English translation. Wah Lum says Jut Sao.
Your definition of it matches that told to me by a kung fu cousin of Wah Lum GM Chan Poi.
As their isn't much available info I'm sure we would all like to hear more.

Throwing hands. My teacher calls it diou(to throw) sho. Which is throwing the hand out of the way. I don't know if this is the same meaning as your shuai sho.
For the most part the skill isn't apparent by seeing a person's form only when you touch hands.
He did the same techiques on me as usual , but one day he added the throw to which my hands were sent too far off to the side making it very difficult to perform the counter attacks.

Does that sound like your meaning?

[mantis108]

Hi Tainan & Paul,

Nice going. :)

First off, I would like to say hi to Paul and nice to meet you.

Taiji Praying Mantis (TJPM) is Mandarin spelling of the style and Tai Chi Praying Mantis is the Cantonese spelling of it. In HK it is TCPM. In fact, the TCPM in HK is widely know as Chuk Kai Tai Chi Praying Mantis, which is named after GM Chiu Chuk Kai, who had incorparated some innovative ideas and extensive effort to systemize his Kung Fu into an unique methodology in training PM Kung Fu. CCK TCPM designation is used mainly after his death by us nowadays to differentiate from other lineages. Mostly in HK and Vietnam, if you mention TJPM/TCPM, most people would think of our lineage.

Also of note is that Tanglangquan seemed to be originally named as Mei Hwa Taiji Quan (nothing to do with Taijiquan except they both might related to Taizu Changquan) but somehow Tanglang designation took over. This could be a move by the local Shandong people to match with other popular Shandong martial arts such as the Eagle Claw and Black Tiger.

The most notable differences in training methodology in our lineage are Sau Fa (Taizu DuanDa), Taijiquan and Taijijeung, and Wooden Dummy (the form). These are not commonly found in other Mei Hwa Taiji Tanglang. After working with Tainan Mantis, I come to realize that we or rather I am on the Soft side of the power spectrum whereas Tainan is on the hard side. I am also more comfortalbe in closer range than him plus that I don't like my hands to cross over the centerline too much. Anyway I think the differences in training shown through.

Tanglang form wise, CCK TCPM is no doubt in sync with other "orignial" mantis styles. I think Tainan would agree to this.

BTW, I train under GM Chiu in the summer of 87 and until he passed away in 91. We were literally at his death bed.

Regarding Pai An, I saw the tape which Tainan showed me. There are Lipi 2 men before the Pai An or Hsiao Kai Men. This is one of the major find for me because of seeing the 3 kicks in the end for the advancing side (not to mention the head butt from the counter side). :) :D I was told by my TJPM seniors that there used to be kicks including lotus kick in the drill but no one seems to remember how it is done. Hsiao Kai Men, as we know it in TJPM, is done with one partner alway advance and the other alway retreat in a line. So it is basically one sided (Hsiao). For the Dai Kai Men, which is the clip on the tape where Tainan said it is unknown, it is similar to Hsiao Kai Men but both sides get to take turn to do advance and retreat . The kicks are the same. It would seem that the Dai Kai Men could serve as a connector for change at the end of the road. I said to Tainan that if indeed the Kicks are kept in the 8 Step version, which according to him is the only PM in Taiwan that does that, then it is highly likely that GM Jiang Hualong taught it. I believe I somehow rekindled his interest in the drill. Our lineage was descented from the Kung Fu Brother of GM Jiang, so we might have difference but for the most part it is clearly that it's the same drill with different names. Incidently, Tainan also thinks that Pai An fits the description of Ying Ching Pau Fa (Ying Ching's counter method) which seems to have something to do with Wong Hon Fun of 7*.

Whew, I love info. exchange. :D

Regards

Mantis108

[Stacey]

I think you have good intentions, you and your father are no doubt great people. Who you like personally, isnt always the person to carry out the system of carry a leadership position. GM Wei didn't instill the Tudi relationship because he liked your father and didn't want to hurt him, thats why Master Shyun was trained at home. Your father wasnt a tudi, you said it yourself. That kind of reinforces what Master Sun has said all along, that his old time students were good, but didn't know that much.

To say that Master Sun isn't good and has bad foundation and made up kung fu is a bad joke.

His students' students' students are excellet and consistantly do well against other fighters. You don't know the throwing/groundfighting of the system and what you don't know, you claim doens't exist. Be happy that you learned from a good Sifu, whose teacher was a Grandmaster of 8 Step Praying Mantis. Count yourself lucky. But just because he wasn't picked to be the keeper of the system, doens't mean you have to make such comical claims to reclaim some kind of legitimacy.

What kind of a human would do that? Sorry, but Master Wei did, it was nothing personal, the system has servived in tact by these methods. Its easier to hate Grandmaster Shyun than your own teacher, I understand that. You and your dad know more than enough to handle yourself in a streetfight, what do you need the other stuff for? The rest is passed onto the keeper, Maser Sun. Any tourist can take pictures. Thousands of karate teachers have pictures with Chuck Norris. So what? Master Sun has pics too, most got burned in the fire, but people saw those before the fire.

All the photos in the world wont matter, because you have generation old embitterment. If you doubt his knowlege, fight him. Since you obviously wont, I can conclude that you fear him or are at least not sure enough to put your money where your mouth is.

[PaulLin]

Stacey,

First, read my part again, it says GM Wei announced my father as the head of disciple in fornt of all other students. Not as you see interpreted it. Ask an GM Wei's students about it and see how they see it.

I truely fell sorry for you that you have used your loyalty to be Shyun's tool to fool you. I know it sounds hard to you. His father Shyun Chiu Hui is not richman at all. He was a gardener/junitor in the same park which GM Wei taught. I was there, I remembered that he was a skinny man with skinny face, wear white tanktop. Every time he saw me, he will go bought a ice cream to me. (don't think I am enjoying to tell his true background, if George didn't show me how many martial arts lover were mentally and financially hurt by Shyun, I wouldn't like to mind how he earn his living). His father has been nice to our family. However, my father has been told that he treat other people bad, use to sale secreates to the principal of the highschool and got promoted to be a faculty later and serving as principal's spy on all other faculties.

GM Wei never did live in mountain. He lived near the park in the middle of the city and walk in the park every day.(if he was in the mountain, he can't do that, too far to travel to park)

And these facts I believe can be found in the local gov. office, records will still be there.

That is as much as I will tell you, if you still choose to be used by Shyun, I can't help you further.

Mantis108

It is so nice to hear your info. I know that most of 8 steps form were condenced form the 7* and modified with HsingI, BaGua, and TungBei. For what I have known, 8 steps is the latest system with less mantis movements in compare to other systems. For example, Chuan Chui (circular hammer fist) originally was done in mantis claw(strike with the back of claw in circular motion). When that move was modified in 8 step, the TungBei(monkey fist) was used instead of mantis claw. The different is the reach, one long and the other short. There are many other mantis moves was changed in 8 step.

The kicks, was mostly stay in mantis. I guess it is because of the Internal arts do not like to kick, especially not kicking above waist often. The last 3 kicks is especially on the external side more--Lutus, Facehanging, and Tornado kicks. (and yet, I wondered if Shyun can do a single Tornado kick) Any ways, I will talk to you later.

[Stacey]

Feel sorry for me, when I am defaming a kung fu master, without the courage to back it up.

I said it in the other post.

Go to his school and back up your words.

Your nowhere near his level, so he probably won't hurt you.

[mantis108]

Hi Paul,

Thank you very much for the info. Very interesting indeed. I see your points on the technical differences. Love to hear more about your Kung Fu stuff. Will chat later definitely. :)

Regards

Mantis108

[EARTH DRAGON]

With all due respect, I was listening to you and somewhat beliving you until you meantion3d the prayingmantiskungfu site.

Then I started laughing to myself. If you notice georges site is filled with 5 different kinds of praying mantis. All of which show pictures of 5 different lineages and let me guess he is learning from all of them what a joke!

Geoge has speewed so much BS that I am doubting he is even a real chiroprator. But then again he probalby has a picture to prove it!!!

I am not saying anything bad about you for I do not know you and will not judge , however I have known george listjak for 12 years and frankly he is a liar, and a cheat and back stabber. I would not admitt to being in his company for his tarnishings wil rub off on you ....and the company you keep will be judged by many.....

[PaulLin]

Earthdragon,

I know exactly what you said. First let me tell you that currently I am not involved in any one's business. What I did is that who ever have an interest of truth in history and art itself, I will try my best to provide them. His other lineages I am not formilar either. What I can tell you is that George is trying very hard to learn the correct technique under my father, me, and Lou's help. He did want to get all of the skill fast as possible before, but he now understand and agree of our method of correct foundation rooting and I must say he is improving very fast.

Also let me tell you more about the different between me and Shyun. I am trying to make the not-widely spread knowledges and info. to be a common knowledge that all should be formiliar about. Shyun is trying to make himself unique, superior, and mysterious. He cannot give out the knowledge that only a person who has been understood and experienced the real arts. He will always brought up the "Untrace-able" supports to help him keep superior position and never will be questioned since you will not know where to find any anwers but from him.

I know that you do dislike George alot and I surely not know his past. George dislike you alot too and he think you are evil. As for me, I would not care about the past but the future. If you are able to see the true way, you are able to understand the true way, and you are able to learn the true way, you must be free form all evil thought to see them, for the evil thoughts will blind you and make you see them otherwise. If George is what you said he is, I wouldn't know. But at lest he is able to learn and improve very well under our teaching, that is what I know.

[PaulLin]

Here Staycey,
You have not set any contest up. If all you can think of is a private fight and taped privately, you know nothing. First of all, it is illegal, only a gang member on a street would considered of that, not a martial artist. Second, you replied me within 3 min, that means it is only your own idea. You cannot represent Shyun. Shyun must make his own announcement of it and make it public. And so far only you want to see what if Shyun fight me, it seems to me no one else cares about it.

It is Shyun that need the back up of his all proofless claim, I don't need to do any thing like that. My knowledge shared in here is helpful to all artists and can be only told by the person who fully understand and have experienced those arts. My wish is to make the correct knowledge a common knowledge so that can prevent the fake people to wast our life and financial support to feed the "cancer cells" of Chinese Martial Arts world. Then later on, the Chinese Martial Arts can be correctly grow and being correctly seeing by all people. Chinese Martail arts should be in Oympic, should be a major in all university, should be a required class in all highschools in the nation. Our arts is reduced now to the size of merely a money making, kid-gardening, and extra activaties. It is way off it's correct position.

If you want to set it up, go tell your father and make it legal and public. In the mean time, if you are able to understand my words in Chinese Martial Arts, you are welcome to make them work for you. Then again, you must be free of evil mind inorder to understand my words correctly and make them works. Keep in mind, there will be more and more artists in this world will come to the level of able to recognize and applying the true arts and less and less unknowing people left for preying on.

In case you don't know what I mean about "evil", it gernerally like this: to take form others to benefit yourself. The correct one of course is taught in common college too, all should benefit. You should alway put your effort on where your roots really are, that is where God want you to be. If you force to where you have no real root, you will run out your luck eventually and crushed. Go to a church and pary, God will show you a better way.

I will not wast any more time until you talk in profession words.

[The Power]

Hi Paul,
I just want you to know that you and your father have my support and respect . The 8 step Karate guys are grasping at strings now.

[EmptyCup]

Uh, I realize that my post might have nothing to do whatsoever with the politics being discussed here but I wanted to ask a question regarding something I've been confused about the last while...hope mantis108 or anybody with the knowledge can answer it for me.

I have heard of Tai Mantis. It is a blend of Northern Shaolin and some other mantis correct? What is it in Cantonese? Tai Chi Tong Long?

There is also another one called Grand Ultimate Fist Praying Mantis which ALSO is called TaiChi Tong Long

And Chiu Cheuk Kai's too...

Which is what??? I am so confused...is there anybody who can clarify this for me? Do any of them actually have Tai Chi Style in them, or does it just mean "Grand Ultimate"?

Thanks.

[Stacey]

1. Your wish is to capitalize on all of Master Sun's work promoting 8 Step in the US. Your wish is to be respected, to have face and be important. Your wish is to do this by cowardly slander. You won't fight him. Your scared. Are you truly angry that he charges money for kung fu? Then by all means, go teach in an elementary school. No one is stopping you. You just can't get away with empty challenges to make yourself sound tough.


2. Grandmaster Shyun is not my dad. And your fear to fight him is justified. Your a joke, and everyone knows it.

If you were real, you would have no hesitation to fight him, you live in the same city. Since you won't because you really know who he is. So wetting your pants and talking trash on a computor forum and shut him down at the source, if you can.

Your new name is Go Pi Shifu.

Dog F.A.R.T sifu (bullsh1te sifu)

[EARTH DRAGON]

Thank you for your kind response and I respect you for your wisdom and wise words.and not getting involved with the he said she said stuff. Again I dont know you but you seem like very humble and nice person. I too have been lied to by shyun kwan long , but he is my sifu and I love him unconditionally.

George never actually trained with, by or under him like I did
( except for 3 sifu camps that are 3 days long) so it was easy for him to turn his back and disrespect in the many ways he did without feeling any remorse again becuse he was only a student of a student of master shyun's a man named dean economos.

But george cares only about himself and has proved that many times. So we are happy that he is not in our system anymore. But the only reason he said I was evil is becuse I stood up for my teacher when he was being kicked out of the federation and he took it very personal that I didnt agree with his actions. But before that we were kung fu brothers for a long time.

But again I just wnant to say thanks and keep up the good work of spreading the art of paryingmantis to the masses. take care your freind E.D

[Stacey]

That did it, the room filled up with BS so thick that It turned into a koan and I was instantly enlightened. This is so **** funny.

hahahhahahahah. Oh boy thats rich. Well I'm off like Bombadill. You two have made a taoist sage of me. hahaha.

you could say the mindlessness has given me mindfullness. So yin gives birth to yang.

ahhahahahhaha. :D

[ALkungfu]

Shifu Paul Lin is an honest and peaceful man. He is dignified, respectable, and a true martial artist. Mr Lin, you don't have to prove anything to anybody, please don't concern yourself with these petty matters. They can instigate until they are blue in the face, but that will not change the fact that they study Shyun's "modified" kung fu system, instead of the true, unchanged system that you know. Truth is the only thing of value.

AL

[Tainan Mantis]

There was a historical book published in Taiwan listing every MA tournament since the early 50's. With the winners and who was in the exhibition. I now regret not having bought that book.

I was looking through and I remember seeing famous people's names and what forms they performed. Some of the forms I knew and some I didn't. I'm pretty sure I saw GM Wei's name although I forgot what form he did.

I saw an article where one of his students said he did bullwhip at these performances because that is what GM Wei taught him to do. I'm pretty sure I would have remembered such an unusual weapon.

Has anyone else heard that GM Wei was a bullwhip master?