Baji Considered an internal art?

[woliveri]

Is Baji considered an internal art and if so, why?

thanks

[RAF]

We never think of classifying baji as internal and external.

Contains the 5 elements found in xing yi i.e different postures and punches connect different organs. It also encompasses all the jings found in Chen taijiquan. Chan si jing is one of the most critical jings but we also say that about praying mantis. Some refer to it as quais-internal, which is okay with me.

The internal/external dichotomy servies no useful purpose in baji. If you go back to an earlier post, I cited the historical explanation of the political reason for the internal/external dichotomy. Until something better comes along, I just think the classification leads to more confusion. For some reason everyone seemt think there is some moral/spiritual high ground in saying that they practice an internal art as opposed to an external art. I often use neigong term to describe some of the training we do in baji but to my knowledge, GM Liu did not refer to it as such.

I guess the way to answer your question is to first ask for definition of internal? I am sure baji will fit with some people's definitions and fail with others.

I think the Sword Polisher's book by Adam Hsu addresses this fairly well. But my understanding (based on my teacher's years with Liu Yun Qiao) is that internal was not part of the baji training language. It was only in his latter years that reference was made to it and only as a gesture to the modern discourse on baji.

[woliveri]

RAF,
Thanks for the reply. I'll take a look at the book:
The Sword Polisher's Record : The Way of Kung-Fu
Looking on the sample pages on Amazon it looks to be pretty good.

I guess the way to answer your question is to first ask for definition of internal?

For me internal to external is related to:
1. the degree of direct stimulation of internal organs. An example of this would be some qi gong exercises such as Wuji qi gong or others. An external martial art such as kung fu would be minimal which I would classify as indirect stimulation of these organs.
2. internal linking from ground to issue of attack. Proper body mechanics to issue energy. I guess this is called jing.

By the way, do you have a lineage chart available for Baji?
Also, how old was Liu Yun Qiao when he passed away?

Thank you

[RAF]

Liu Yun Qiao was 82 when he passed on.

I guess by your definition you could classify baji/pigua as internal but I am not sure most baji masters would find it worthwhile.

In xiao baji we breath to 8 points and the baji neigong exercise eating the sun can be interpreted internally (GM Liu did it in one of his pamphlets).

Pigua by your definition could also be considered internal.

Any particular reason why you are interested (no flame)? I am thinking you might want to try it? Its worthwhile if you can get a good teacher who understands proper alignment.

[woliveri]

RAF,
Thank you for the responses. I'm very close (within 45 min) of Jason Tsao's Saturday class. I have visited it several times and from what I've seen Baji appeals to me.

[RAF]

Jason Tsou would be an excellent choice. He was on the cover of Black Belt with GM Liu in 1982 or so and appears in his xiao baji book in the application section. Not sure about the da baji book.

One of older kungfu brothers got to talk to him during our Hall of Fame Tournament (2001) and was very impressed with him. The fact that he is willing to teach the da qiang exercises publicly speaks loudly in my book.

Also his students are a great bunch of guys. I am sure you have read many of the Count's posts.

Good luck.

[Stranger]

Do the figting skills developed through these arts endure as one gets older?

[RAF]

I don't know how to answer it or test it. 95% depends on the practitioner and a large part is influenced by genetics.

I don't know what last means? Does it get better? Probably not. Everyone gets old and dies and bodies deteriorate no matter what you do.

Liu played well into his 70s. But the system in guarantee that an individual player will be good or last or even be a good fighter.

Do boxers lose their fighting ability in old age? How about their health? Perhaps the only advantage to CMA, if done properly, is that you hang on to some of your boxing ability and, with luck, have relatively good health.

Your guess is as good as mine.

[Stranger]

I was just thinking about a statement of GM Liu's posted on this forum that went something to the effect that his students would thank him for their training in Bagua when they get older.

It makes sense, in that Bagua is a great art. How could you not be thankful? I was just wondering if perhaps GM Liu was implying something more (ie. baji/pigua wil make you a terror, but as you get older you should transition to a different training routine), so I asked (since I have no clue).

[RAF]

From my teacher, I only know that GM Liu considered bagua the most complex system and I think, based on what I think I know, that bagua's conditioning works more directly on internal organs, especially the kidneys. However, they say that Li Shu Wen was still going quite strong at 70 when he was supposedly poisoned.

Fighting is important but it is not everything although I think to be complete you must understand the fighting and applications that lie behind your system of forms. But sometime you just gotta have fun too!

[Daredevil]

Everything I have heard supports that Baji will remain an effective art even in old age. My teacher is not that old yet, but apparently his teacher is a very old and small man with tremendous power.

But dunno how it'd compare to the three internal arts in this department, nor do I find such comparisons necessary. I believe Baji power will be an asset at no matter what the age.

[RAF]

Xing Yi Nei Gong: Xing Yi Health Maintenance and Internal Strenght Development compiled and edited by Dan Miller and Tim Cartmell.

When I got the book, I was shocked at how well the xing yi players aged and developed. Many died well into their 80s and 90s and some even hit 100.

I find a great similarity between baji, xing yi and chen's taiji (not form but in training methods and philosophy). As I said before, genetics is a big factor but I see no reason why baji can't be played into old age as would xing yi or chen's taiji.

You probably won't be stomping like a twenty year old in your eighties but many of the basic training and what Miller and Cartmell term neigong exercises are similiar to what I have learned in baji basics. What might come closest to baji neigong follows a qi gong pattern termed hun yuan and my Chinese doctor from Beijing indicated that it produced the same results as his qi gong encompassing hun yuan.

I think the fear in exploring baji along these paths is the tendency to *******ize it and water it down to where we find much of Yang's taijiquan today. First and foremost baji is a fighting and conditioning system with prime intent on efficient use of energy in fighting but theoretically there is no reason why it shouldn't produce good health and longevity if other factors are in place. In the end you step up, roll the dice and takes ya chance.