Word Up!!

[TaiChiStorm]

Peace to all you MA freaks!!!! This is my first message to this forum ,and I am quite anxious for your response.
Actually ,I am a bit sad about my martial arts practice. I am doing Taiji Meihua Tanglang since about 8 months. The thing is ,that it is not a real school where I go. There are just about 20 people or so ,who practice together in a gym 3 times a week. My master is a Korean. My problem is: The training is always almost the same!! We do our kicks and stances in the beginning ,and then ,everybody is left alone ,and you practice your form. My master controlls everyone’s form and corrects it. Then the last 15 min ,(If there is still time at all) we do some technics. ALWAYS THE SAME. In the beginning ,I really liked it ,but now I feel like I am improving too slowly. The thing is ,that our master is not present at every lesson. The last time he was there just a few times.
I am loosing my will!! I really like the style ,and there are not so many martial art schools in my city left. I don’t know if it is okay to practice without really enjoying the training. Would you give me advice???!!!
Harry

[Tainan Mantis]

My shr fu has had over 30 teachers.
One of the best, also mei hwa PM, watched TV while the students sat in a horse stance.
The GM of Secret Door(mei hwa hybrid) made students do 8 extremely basic exercisis for 6 months. Even my teacher who already was a teacher himself when he went there.

I don't know your prevoius training, but for a beginner 8 months is kindergarten.

Did you already start a form?
In Taiwan there are still some traditional teachers who make you do a single technique for months.
At shaolin they still pride themselves on doing a form nonstop for hours.

Do you think you could play the violin well enough after 8 months to learn a new song? Maybe if it was 3 blind mice.
In kung fu there are no basic forms. Especially mei hwa PM.

What forms are you and your classmates learning?

[SaMantis]

Welcome aboard, TaiChiStorm!

Listen to Tainan Mantis, he's got several years of experience to back him up.

But I am also a relatively new student (just over 2 years), I can tell you that my first 6 months was basics, basics, basics and a single form.

The good news is, I feel like I know that single form better than most of my peers, because I spent 3 months practicing it for a tournament.

Keep practicing, don't give up! You may be surprised in a couple months, when you can whip that form out perfectly, even in your sleep.

Sam

[TaiChiStorm]

Thank you guys!! I understand what you are trying to tell me. Probably you right. I did Wing Chun for half a year in Australia ,where I was on an exchange last year. I liked it very much ,it was a big school with a lot of decoration ,weapons ,a special gym for wushu ,and things like that. And ,most of all ,you could go there 10 hours 7 days a week. I went there so often and I improved very fast for a bloody MA beginner. We practiced a lot of sparring and stuff ,which is quite easy in WT. I was feeling like I learned something. There is a WT place in my city as well ,but how you probably know ,WT is not a clean business here in Germany ,and I also don't like the people there.
A big change: now I am practicing in a little dirty gym with old people ,and........3 weeks ago ,we did sparring the first time ,and ****....I was not able to use a technic which I had learned in the form. I just couldn't. That was ****ing me off.
But you are right ,it is just a different style ,and you can't compare the improvement in WT and PM. But my problem is still that my shr fu is not present regularly ,and that gives me a feeling ,that he doesn't care about his students.
Another thing: How can I effectifly practice at home ,beside form and stances??
I would be happy to hear from you again!! Thanx !!
Harry

[PaulLin]

Taichistorm,

If you are not satisfied with the source to support your learning in class, this is what I think can help: you can go to the grand source of where Martial arts came form to help your further study of it.

There are 3 sources I know of how the masters in the past used to help on thier study.

1. From the nature. Observing the nature, that includes plant, water, monuntain, wind, fire, animals, insects...etc. For structure and form study, one can observe trees and rocks(For example, in BaGua, circle around tree while practicing movements help rooting and the eract of the posture while during the practicing). For the forces, one can learn form fire and water(for example, Tzon style white crane use to dry water form hands with strikes). And of course you know observing animals and insects and see how they react will help you to find a new way of applying moves.

2. From philosophy. For Taiji, HsingI, Bagua, Sixharmoney...etc. are all analyzed with philosophy. By study and deeper understanding of philosophy will help you imporve your learning.

3. Acturall hand-on experience. Many moves are modified after they were really applied. If you can't find a sitable partner to do this, you can find objects to help. Not just breaking stuff, I mean to operate them in visalizing the real applying situations. For example, if you sit infront of a computer, first check what are you working against----in this case is the gravity that pulls against your posture, the screen that try to make the focus unbalanced, and the arm, leg position that may not cordenate with the body position in favorit of applying or accepting force. And yet, by fighting against all those, one can imporve skills without actually knowing it.

I hope you can find it helpful

[Stacey]

interesting, who would have thought you could master kung fu by fighting a computor. Your methods are truly unique.

[TaiChiStorm]

Thank you guys for your mental help. I think I know what you were triing to tell me PaulLin. I will try it. If you have anymore tips about training at home ,please tell me. The first thing I'm gonna do is to buy a real animal. That's pretty interesting!!!
I guess I wouldn't be able to quit this PM stuff anyway. It is too good!!
Greets

[Ye Gor]

Practising at home is not that hard.

Just pick a technique and drill it. Then do it again. After you get tired, do it some more and observe how being tired is messing you up and try to correct it.

The underlying reasons for your shr fu not being there and the fact that you stopped improving are the same. You have reached a plateau. It wouldn't help you to have your shr fu there, he'd just have to repeat the same things to you over and over.

To begin improving again you have to go deeper, not broader. And only dilligent AND correct practice can do that for you. Your shr fu can only give you the ball and point out the direction... you have to carry the ball yourself.

Do it at home. Make a 'funny dummy'. Find/fix a horizontal bar, then grab-pluck. or whatever. over and over. and listen to your whole body as you do the technique. "The neck bone is connected to the back bone". What else is connected to what? Is everything connected? And what if you do it with a step to the right? Or a hop to the left? There is so much to discover that there is no end to it.

[PaulLin]

First I want to agree with Ye Gor, that is a very correct view on foundation drill. Foundation drill is like the roots and all skills like branches and leaves.

On that animal issue, it is better to oberve them in their natural habitat. Home pet don't do the same, eventhough they may still help.

The main points need to do is to make you drill in every day activaties with lively meaning. Most people can't find other meaning the get them to go further and deeper. Not just typing in front of computer, also in walking, driving(safty first!), or even talking, you can put your foundation in them and gain improvements. (not when eating or restroom activaties, not the time for that)

Chinese Martial Arts has saying as "to stand like a pine tree, to sit like a bell, to lay and sleep like a bow, and to walk like wind."

[TaiChiStorm]

Thanx for your advices!! But I am sorry ,my English is not that good yet ,so ,could you explain again what you mean by the "foundation drill" or what about "finding a bar and grab-pluck"?? Thanx!!

[Tainan Mantis]

TaiChiStorm,
What are the names of the forms you learn?
How about your elders?

[PaulLin]

Taichistorm,
Foundation drills are to repeatingly practice of the movements that giving condition to the need of the applications in the arts. It is the 4th step on learning the martial arts.

"finding a bar...?" no idea what that is.

[Ye Gor]

"Find/fix a horizontal bar, then grab-pluck"

I wouldn't call myself a mantis guy, but I thought grab-pluck is a fairly basic technique in PM (and other styles). Maybe a different official name for it? (Tainan?)

Anyway, it was just an example of what can be done 'at home'. Grab-pluck is best practiced on something physical (instead of air), like an opponent's arm, or a wooden dummy arm... or just a stick. So what I meant: find a way to attach (nail?) a stick (broomstick?) to something (bookshelf?)... and use it to practice grab-pluck on. Hey, what's more important, your kung fu or your furniture? (I have a tree out in the back yard...)

The main thing is to practice a single technique over and over (correctly, of course). Next day do a different one. Day after that come back to the first one. (Some one told me 'kung fu' is slang for 'hard work'. Is that true?)

[PaulLin]

Ye Gor,
right on the target. Nice nice:)

[Tainan Mantis]

Is also known as go lo tsai.
It can be practiced with a bicycle inner tube(if no partner).
Tie it to a tree to use the different hand grabs(not just go lo tsai).

Of interesting note is that styles like judo also use this method.

[PaulLin]

in 8 steps it was said "go lo tsai guwa." The hand skills.

[TaiChiStorm]

Thank you guys!!! I think I am out of my depression last week. I will try your taining methods. In my current other threat I was told about the a form for a dummy in PM. So I will perhaps go for this!!
Greets TCS

[PaulLin]

The 12 soft techniques in 8 Step mantis are

Shian Zhan Toun Noal, Go Lo Tsai Guwa, Zhan Nian Teia Kao.

first 4 are steps
second 4 are hands
last 4 are whole body

[EARTH DRAGON]

Are these not the 12 characters?

ZHAN - ( CONTACTING ) MEETING OPPONENTS FORCE
NIAN - ( STICKING ) MOVING WITH OPPONENTS MOVEMENTS
BANG - ( LINKING ) KENTIC ENERGY
TIE - ( PRESSING ) WARDING OFF OPPONENTS FORCE
LAI - ( INTRUDING ) MOVING INTO OPPONENTS SPACE
JIAO - ( PROVOKING ) SETTING UP OPPONENT
SHUN - ( MOVING ALONG ) SLIDING WITH OPPONENTS FORCE
SONG - ( SENDING ) PUSHING OFF OPPONENT
TI - ( LIFTING ) LIFTING OPPONENTS LIMBS OR TORSO
NA - ( GRABBING ) GRABBING OPPONENTS LIMBS
FENG - ( BLOCKING ) BLOCKING OPPONENTS STRIKES
BI - (LOCKING ) LOCKING OPPONENTS LIMBS

[PaulLin]

Yeah, I do reconize most of your 12 words. 3 are form 8 steps, 2 are form ShuaiChiao,

Zhan Nian in ShangDong folk talk is Ai Bang (Ai Zhe, Bang Zhe)
Song--appeared in BaGua and Tai Chi
Na, Feng--are in other style mantis

Tai, Lai, Jiao are not sure, must see in charactor, close pronoun.

[Tainan Mantis]

Paul,
I liked your definition of the 12 keywords.
In the book with your dad's pic as well as his kung fu brother Wang Jia is listed the 12 keywords of 8 step. Only the first 4 match what you have written.
While the last 8 are listed as the 8 keywords of shuai sho PM, but in a different order.

Under mimen PM(same book) is listed the same keywords that ED has listed, but in a different order.

The order in this book is the order preserved by Li Kun Shan, which is different from his teacher Jiang Hwa Long. This order is also in Zhang De Kuei's mimen book called Lan Jie. This was designated by my teacher as GM Zhang himself had no manuscript. So my teacher used Li Kun Shan's manuscripts for mimen PM as the 2 styles are really one style by 2 people.

Shr Zhengzhong is inheritor of these 2 styles, though I dare not say"sole."

ED,
Your list is from Jiang Hwa Long himself.

Some of the above info comes from Ilya Profalitov. I suspect he hasn't come around lately because of all the lack of brotherly love.

Interesting note:
This book lists the keyword formulas of 4 styles of PM

[BeiTangLang]

Is this book available currently? I would enjoy reading a text that has 4 versions of Mantis in it!
Thanks,
BTL

[bamboo_ leaf]

Sounds like a good school with a different style of teaching. I learned a little plum flower mantis in Korea a while back. If I may offer some advice.

When you think some one is not watching they are. :)
This is your training; if some one is not making corrections maybe your practice is not to the point of being corrected, keep training on the things you where shown.


Every style has skills that should be developed before trying them in use. You don’t say how old your sabunim (sifu) is. Depending on his age and how he trained he may not give freely what is not earned through much practice. Even then there is the language and culture that is very different with Korean Subunims then many Chinese Sifu that I have met.

If you feel that his skill is good and you want it, practice with out expectation and all will be given in time.

good style, might try finding some books on plum flower. they will describe some of the stump training. ;)

luck in training