WC: What the heck?

[IronFist]

Ok, I just watched the WSL tape (the one from amazon) again and pretty much learned the SLT form. However, one part on the tape was messed up so I had to consult my Augusting Fong SLT tape to see that part. I figured it out, no problem.

Now, what the hell is going on? Fong's is SLT is very different from WSL's (I like WSL's better so that's the one I'm going to be doing). I mean, some parts are totally different. Fong has this part where he does double straight punches with one hand on top of the other, which is totally absent from WSL's form. In the beginning tan sau part (the slow part) he changes from fook sau (that's what it's called, right, the bent wrist block) to tan sau much differently than WSL does.

And then, on that cd I got with Yip Chun doing SLT, there's another section on there with a bunch of different old guys doing SLT... and dámn, some of those really don't look ANYTHING like Fong's or WSL's. I mean, if not for the slow tan sau part at the beginning, I wouldn't have ever recognized it as SLT.

What's going on? Is there really this much difference between lineages? Dámn, no wonder WC guys bicker about lineage and which is right so much.

Yuck. How'd I ever get attracted to this art in the first place :P

IronFist

[Sharky]

You can't learn properly from videos.

[vingtsunstudent]

''WSL was a great fighter but his hands are not that great form-wise. His hands are pretty messy but fighting ability wasn't affected by it''
emptycup
OH MY GOD
rather than reply i think i will just sit here & literally pi$$ myself laughing.
perhaps you should have been my comical sidekick cause $hit are you one funny dude or what.
vts

[vingtsunstudent]

ha ha ha ho ho ho
i promised i wouldn't say anything & ague with you but i never said i wouldn't laugh at you.
he he he ho ho ho ha ha ha jkaqcfk nvkbas
whoops i just fell off my chair.........please stop your killing me man.
vts

[sunkuen]

Nobody is perfect!!!

[vingtsunstudent]

i know he wasn't pefect & even he admitted so, infact he even used to tell of occassions where he got hit.
there are many reason for me to laugh at that though, but hey i like to live in my own litle laa laa land of false beliefs & second rate knowledge.
again, i could explain myself but i think you know the story by now.
he he he ho ho ho ha ha ha
vts

[vingtsunstudent]

emptycup
do you mean in his earlier years whilst fighting & training hard, do you mean when he was older doing seminars all over the world or do you mean in the video, perhaps you mean now when he's gone & can't defend himself or the reason why his form work ended up looking that way.
there is also a saying that is something like 'do as i say not as i do'
do you sort of even understand.
another thing of interest is the stance- when you start, you keep the feet 45-60 degrees but as you progress in the system & have grasped all the concepts involved with that & your technique is good enough, you are free to no longer even stand this way in the first form.(most still do though due to the health benifits it has)
but does that mean when you teach someone you will not have them stand that way.
again, do you sort of understand.
then again maybe my piont will be lost as i am not the most literate of people.
i don't wish to argue & i am sorry for laughing at your posts but i think it's just funny. hey that's just my kooky sense of humour.
vts

[vingtsunstudent]

sunkuen
is that the best you got.
he he ho ho

if you read it again you would see that i agreed with you, fool.
vts
ps at what stage did i say he was super human or perfect for that matter

[vingtsunstudent]

sunkuen
to reply to what you said about putting someone on a pedistal.
i hardly think respecting or admiring someone for their achievments has anything to do with that.
i think it's more a case of credit where credit is due.
vts

[yuanfen]

1. Suggest learning from a good teacher rather than primarily from a tape- doesnt matter whose tape.
2. The three major forms are IMO "texts" of the system. Like texts on any serious subject there are differebt editions and
commentaries in different texts. Why be surprised- wing chun isnt
Funakoshi's shotokan.
3. Different quite good sifus have some differences in their forms and "signature" moves and openings.
4. The double punch is one of the distinctive things on Augustine Fong's slt- and there is a very good reason why it is there and for where it is placed. If you see Chao and Weakland - you will see that double punch- it is an useful drill
5. Rhetorically you wonder why you were learning the art.
Good question!!!!

[hunt1]

If you have to learn from a tape then i suggest Yip Chuns form.He performs slowly so the moves are clear and his form is plain vanilla.The others you mentioned have personalized their forms.You can go anywhere and perform the Yip Chun forms and not get any arguement over the form.
If you are going to learn a form that has benn personalized then you really need the teacher to explain why things are added or altered.
As an aside WSL was and early student and Yip Chun was a late period student.Yip Man did change things over the years.This accounts for some of the difference between the two.Fongs forms are his own so only he or his students can explain the differences.

[Peter Aarts]

I´m just a little wondering ´bout you just told us. So in your system you hard working on some techniques for several years to do them differently when you finally mastered them.
Funny...;)

[sunkuen]

I deleted the post because your clearly not worthy.

[IronFist]

hunt 1 said:
If you have to learn from a tape then i suggest Yip Chuns form.

Do you mean the one I have? It's the one where he's doing the form in front of people in a gym or something (there's mirrors there). It's not really instructional, just him demonstrating it. Is this the one your talking about?

The others you mentioned have personalized their forms.You can go anywhere and perform the Yip Chun forms and not get any arguement over the form.

I'm sorry, what's the reason for personalizing the forms? (Here comes the most relevant example I can think of) That sounds to me like someone learning the basics of playing guitar, and then changing it to accomodate their own personal habits, and then taking on students and teaching them their modified way, which might not work for the new student as it's not the original way that was invented. Uh, yeah did that make sense? nevermind.

As an aside WSL was and early student and Yip Chun was a late period student.Yip Man did change things over the years.This accounts for some of the difference between the two.Fongs forms are his own so only he or his students can explain the differences.


WSL was early? So his would be more "original" right? So why did you recommend Yip Chun's earlier?

I am confused :)

IronFist

[IronFist]

Are there really no WC teachers at all in your area?

Yeah. Surprising considering that I'm at a University... isn't there supposed to be a WC club or something? We do have Shotokan and TKD, tho :)

Um, there's WC teacher in Chinatown (Chicago) but it would be extremely inconvenient for me to go there. Actually, he posts here sometimes, but I can't remember his screenname. I think Ng is his last name. You probably know who I'm talking about.

And then in regards to my house when I'm not at college, the closest one is still like an hour away... buuuut, if I can't get an internship this summer I may end up going there anyway just so my mom doesn't yell at me for sitting around the house all day :)

Iron

[vingtsunstudent]

hans
i will try to answer you without resorting to being a smarta$$, which you clearly wish to be.
we don't train for several years to learn things & then change them, it is a simple fact that when you are at a level when you are in control of your wing chun & not it's slave, whether due to it may be a slight touch of laziness(as you age & your focas shifts from perhaps being a fighter to someone staying with what they love to keep fit, whatever) or that in the end you slightly modify it to suit you(again the master not the slave) things may end up looking a little sloppy(to the untrained eye).also for people at this level it seems that the moment they have to move be it in training or a real situation their body will move correctly due to all the years of training.
i am nowhere near the level of letting little things not quite look right or be performed, what may seem to the average eye, incorrectly.
although my form doesn't look picture perfect that is what i aim for.
as a side note it may take just a 'FEW' more years than several to have wing chun movements so much a part of you that you can allow your form to look a little sloppy without suffering bad habits from it.
i am sorry if i am unable to make clear something that should be odvious, i am sorry if you don't understand what i am trying to say & i am sorry if you wish to continue being a smarta$$.

just quickly, there is a big differnce between looking sloppy & being sloppy.
and besides everything else some peoples bodies will just not allow for perfect positioning.
vts

[straightblast5]

I cannot prove or disprove anyone’s comments with words alone. That is the reason I tend to stay out of this type of discussions. However, when my Sifu’s name was brought up, I felt the need to offer a few words (fashioned from my personal experiences).

I studied with Sifu Wong Shun Leung and I never saw any problems with his execution of the forms. Forms in Ving Tsun are not there to serve an aesthetic function; they act as an alphabet for use in creating a fighting language. Sifu taught us exactly the purpose of each and every structure found within the forms and the explanations never contradicted the execution of any of the techniques. The term “sloppy” brings to my mind, “form contradicting function” - which has never been the case in any of the forms or concepts that my Sifu had presented to me.

Perhaps one might find another person’s forms “sloppy” if they are not familiar with the function prescribed with the structures executed.

Also, the WSL videotape in question is not a good representation of my Sifu’s attributes for many reasons. He himself recommended me to stay away from it.

Ironfist,

May I ask where you are located? You’ve mentioned something about my school in Chicago’s Chinatown being inaccessible to you. You can e-mail me through my website if you feel more comfortable doing so.

Take Care,

Phil
Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association (http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com)

[vingtsunstudent]

your 2 cents is duely noted & is really all it's worth anyways.;)

if you think i am offended by what you say then you are wrong in your thoughts, i have tried to explain & if we disagree then so be it, no need to worry, people are always going to view things differently.
i do appoligise for my abrupt personality but that is just me & i think you've been around here long enough to know that & should realise to take it with a grain of salt.

EmptyCup
do you mind answering some questions, as in all fairness i have answered yours.
firstly, do mind me asking how long you have trained wing chun(i myself have only 12 years experience)

''Dont' forget that Wong began fighting when he was only in 6months of training or so. He didn't really have too much time to build a solid foundation before he could pick up bad habits.''
on what grounds do you base this, were you there or is this what you have been told?

''how can sloppy positioning with anybody look that way and not be that way?!?!?! that's a contradiction. Sloppy hands means the practioner has BAD HABITS. He might be able to use it, but it would be BETTER if he didn't do that.''
let me just say i don't agree with that but hell i've been known to be wrong on more than one occassion.(i have already stated why & to them you didn't agree but that's fine by me)
from whom do you learn?
there form must look perfect, surely they don't have any bad looking parts to there form, surely there movements look no different to yours. he/she doesn't do anything slightly different yet asks you to perform it slightly different as you are different & he wants you to perform it correctly not just the way he does it.

again i don't speak for wong or my sifu & have no idea as to why he may look sloppy, i have tried my best to explain various reasons as to why i think these things can happen based on my limited knowledge.

i am odviously a nobody without any reputation, so maybe it would be nice if you asked david peterson or straightblast5 as to why wong's form looked that way as they were direct students.(sorry sb5 as i had typed this well before you posted but my adsl went out)
perhaps he could shed some light for you seeing as a nobody like me can not
vts
ps have you see yip man doing the form, why don't we start on him and his technique, or was it perfect & i'm the only one missing something.

[vingtsunstudent]

your right, i'm wrong.
they are the words you wish to hear so by all means enjoy them.
i may even give up wing chun as i have such a poor grasp of it compared to people like you, wow all these years & i have learnt so little.
how did i miss these odvious mistate & even begin i might be learning something.
i thank you for being able to help me realise this & hope you feel no animosity towards me forever doubting you.
vts

[IronFist]

... you therefore choose another martial art (maybe even a slightly inferior one )

Alright dude, let's put it this way. Say you are a fan of metal music but you hate country music, so you buy a guitar. The only teachers in the area are country-music teachers. Would you want to become an awesome country musician, even though you don't like country music?

Straightblast5, I'll send you a private message.

IronFist

[vingtsunstudent]

thought you learned from Wong DIRECTLY!!! The way you answered previous posts...

why would you have thought that, you asked me in the biu jee thread & i told you who he was, perhaps if you ask david peterson in one of your offline conversations he may give you even more information on my sifu if you ask.

it seems even if i appoligise for disagreeing or being easily upset by comments made about someone who did more for wing chun ,than you ever will, that i still have the attitude.

gee, you like to make hard to leave on any form of good terms but i geuss it's just a case of whatever.
vts

[vingtsunstudent]

,I have stated the name of my sifu many times before in this forum but I will discuss this and the rest of your message in a private message...so check!
sorry just found out pm's were disabled if you wish to send me your answers i have enabled it, sorry about that.
vts

[Roy D. Anthony]

Thanks for the consideration Empty Cup, however it is a 2 sided street. *S*...too bad, because different perspectives give different answers. But I am quite flattered that you did consider it Empty Cup.:)

[hunt1]

There are many WC teachers in Chicago.No matter what university you attend there should be one within 20 min of the school.Some are better than others but all are better than learning from a video.I would b happy to give you some names if you tell me where you are.

[Peter Aarts]

As already mentioned here before: The form is basic stuff. Every move in WC comes has its origin in the form. So, if your form isn´t correct, your applications aren´t correct either. That´s why the several WC-styles are so different: because their forms are.
If you think Yip Man didn´t do his form right, then nobody would have learnt it the correct way.

[JasBourne]

It is impossible to learn wingchun from a video. It is simply impossible. You may learn the outward motions, you may even be able to mimic *exactly* the movements of the guy in the video (at least what you can see of the movement, given the camera angle), but you will have zero understanding of why you do what you do. The tan sau goes forward along the centerline. Why? Where is your intention during tan sau positioning? Why? Where is the crook of your elbow pointing? Why? What leads your huen sau movement? Why? Where is your tailbone? Your neck? Why? etc etc etc .

Wingchun is an art of minute precision, a game in which fractions of an inch and fractions of a second make the difference. This is the stuff only a sifu can teach you, things you can only learn through doing in a kwoon and asking face to face from someone who knows. If you do not understand exactly why you do what you do, you will never be able to apply principles, because you don't know what they are.

You cannot learn wingchun simply through "monkey see monkey do". No disrespect to any style which you can learn that way :D

[IronFist]

It is impossible to learn wingchun from a video

Watch me :p Maybe since it won't be exact, it can be my own hybrid. Maybe I'll call it Jeet Kune Do. Oh wait a sec, that's already taken.

I guess I'll find someone eventually. I unno :)

IronFist

[vingtsunstudent]

hans
''If you think Yip Man didn´t do his form right, then nobody would have learnt it the correct way.''
rember, do as i say not as i do.
remember it's the positons you put yourself in that wins the fight not the position you look like your in when you do the form.
how about puting a video of yourself up here doing the form as i am sure i am not the only one who would like to see what the king of chi sao looks like with his perfect form.
vts

[Matrix]

All joking aside. You CANNOT learn SLT from a video. No way, no how. Why???? Because there is more than meets the eye. How do you learn how to feel through video tape? There are many subtle yet important things that you need a sifu to help you with.

If you can find a sifu who can help you even on an occasional basis, you will much better off. Now Phil has graciously offered to help you. Grab the opportunity, if not with him, then with someone else. But find someone. I'm willing to bet that you will not regret it. :)

Regards,
Matrix

[burnsypoo]

depends on what you mean by learn, too though. There are certainly things you can learn from WC videos. But obviously it's no substitute for proper instruction as far as your growth in WC is concerned. But hey, someone had to come up with WC, so maybe the guy learning from the video will somehow decipher the inner workings of the system simply from his own introspection.
maybe.
;]

-BP-

[Matrix]

Certainly videos can enhance training, but they cannot be the only tool, or even the main one. Nothing can substitute for a good sifu. But hey, that's just one guy's opinion.

Matrix

[burnsypoo]

again, depends on what you want to get out of it.
Can you get good WC from a video? No.
No sh|t. Need to look past that.

There's still a lot that can be taken note of in videos... and most of the time it's not even the subject matter that's being discussed/applied. Just need to know how to look.

On the other hand, however "trained" the eye, sometimes appearances can be deceiving. Depends on how tricky the person is!

How tricky are you?
=)
-BP-

[IronFist]

JasBourne said:

but you will have zero understanding of why you do what you do. The tan sau goes forward along the centerline. Why? Where is your intention during tan sau positioning? Why? Where is the crook of your elbow pointing? Why? What leads your huen sau movement? Why? Where is your tailbone? Your neck? Why?

How about I try to answer these, and then if you could give me the correct answers it would totally help me out :)

No one make fun of my answers, except for those of you who were born with knowledge of WC.

The tan sau goes forward along the centerline. Why?

Off the top of my head, I would guess:
1)To stress the importance of centerline applications and location both physically and neurologically
2)Because it's most effecient along the centerline
3)Because it can most easily be turned into an attack (to the centerline) from this position

Where is your intention during tan sau positioning? Why?

Intention? Forward, I guess.

Where is the crook of your elbow pointing?

Down

Why?

Because that's what a tan sau is. If your elbow was up it would be a bong sao :D

What leads your huen sau movement? Why?

Huen Sau is that little circle between tan sao and wu sao in SLT, right? What do you mean "what leads the movement?" Isn't that kind of like asking "what leads the movement in a pullup?"

Where is your tailbone?

Tilted in, like in a horse stance or during qigong or any other CMA stance.

Your neck?

As if hung from a string.

Why?

Internal answer: Because this helps to straighten the spine (along with pelvis tilted forward) and facilitates qi flow.
External answer: Because this facilitates greater relaxation, which is always listed as a key component of WC

Ok, now what are the right answers?

IronFist

[Peter Aarts]

Slobby-vingtsunstudent


You´d rather give the time and place were "mr. machine" is giving the seminar in Germany. So I can go and see by myself what the application of your slobby forms looks like. Seems very interesting to me what´s going to be left of practising the forms the way do. Cause in my opinion, there is no difference between doing the form in the right way and being in good positions when fighting.

[vingtsunstudent]

again if your form is so perfect, show us.
i personally don't keep up with my sifu's movements whilst in germany as it half a world away but if you wanted to find him try a search on google under barry lee.
and another thing hans, atleast my sifu doesn't have to post under aliases to try & drum up business for his own school,although it does look like you have decided to take some medication as we haven't seen botha for a few days, let alone any of the other names you post at the vtaa forum under.
vts

[mun hung]

Frankly, I don't get that either. You initially asked the forum for it's advise on good instructors in Holland, (cause you live there) and then end up being an instructor in Holland!:D

Nice one.;)

[Peter Aarts]

mun hung

I asked for a good Wing Chun teacher, as I practise WT. I´d like to learn the differences between the several different Wing Chun styles. Just out of curiosity and interest. On the forum I hear about beautiful theories, but I´d like to experience them by myself.


Slobby Student

Are you getting personal again? Don´t think your real name is VTS either. Besides, I´m not marketing my sifu as you do.

[vingtsunstudent]

hans
the problem with being 'Just a Mirror' is that you can't see that you are just a peanut with no credibility.
if you wish to keep annoying me & having the hide to ask if i am the one getting personal again, then, my second rate nobody, you will end updoing no more than playing with yourself, which it seems is the only thing you are probably a master at.
i have given you an idea where to look.
now come back when you have found out the truth.
vts
by the way my name is anthony coleman & have posted it several times in the past, unlike you i am not here to play silly little childrens games.
post in your real name or at least only with one signature & you might gain back just a small bit of credibility back, although i do doubt it.
besides all that i don't think i am yet to see one REAL answer from you yet anyways

[vt108]

"You´d rather give the time and place were "mr. machine" is giving the seminar in Germany. So I can go and see by myself what the application of your slobby forms looks like. Seems very interesting to me what´s going to be left of practising the forms the way do. Cause in my opinion, there is no difference between doing the form in the right way and being in good positions when fighting."

If I can suggest something to you all, just ignore this pathetic child. Please.

[vingtsunstudent]

vt108
did you receive my e-mail.
and yes that was my last post to hans.
again e-mail me if you wish to chat.
vts

[David Peterson]

Well, as my name has been mentioned several times now within this thread, perhaps a comment is required....I would have done so earlier, but I had server problems that kept me off the Net until just a short time ago. In any case, here goes...

First of all, at least as far as WSL devotees are concerned, forms are for training, not for an audience, and serve as "living textbooks" of both technique, concepts and structure, designed to train ALL of the above under the most perfect of conditions so as to eventually "load" that skill base into our neural system. Forms are NOT a make-believe fight scenario, or set sequences for application in combat (and it is tantamount to suicide to think so), but a means to an end, that end being the ability to take whatever "tool" is needed for the job and apply it effectively under real conditions. Fighting is NOT a perfect situation, but if one has trained all movements and concepts as near as possible to perfection, then it is more likely that when applied under less than perfect conditions, what we employ will still get the job done as effectively as possible. For example, if one takes the 'Taan Sau' technique literally, the English translation is "to spread out with the hand", the inference being that when applied as near as possible to flat/horizontal with the ground, one can suppress and redirect the opponent's force sideways, thus nullifying it. Of course, for a variety of reasons, such as the physical size of the opponent, the angle of attack, the timing of the application of the movement, and so on, it can be expected that the technique will NOT be on the same angle/allignment as in the form. However, because it has been TRAINED as perfectly as possible, it will more than likely still effectively redirect the incoming force. Obviously I chose the 'Taan Sau' action as it seems that some of you feel that my Sifu's 'Taan Sau' was poorly executed (I think it was referred to as "ugly"?!)....believe me, when he taught it, trained it and used it, it was bloody effective! As he said himself, we can all see a piece of artwork from a different perspective and cannot proove that it is either "right" or "wrong", but when it comes to combat, what WORKS is all that matters. As a side comment, I would love to know what it is about his 'Taan Sau' that you find so bad, ...and in what photograph can I best observe this inadequacy in his technique? Anyway, in summing up, never mind what something looks like because we are all different from each other, not clones or robots, and are supposed to be USING our Wing Chun as our personal tool, not being USED by it. Oh, and by the way, if you haven't been on the other side of someone's technique, don't judge its effectiveness too soon....looks can be deceiving. VTS and Straightblast 5, thanks for your input on this topic. Regards to all,
DMP

[Peter Aarts]

Nice to meet you, Anthony Coleman.

Seems your alter ego is awake. I tried you suggested me to do. Google under Barry Lee. Seems my browser doesn´t recognize the name. I even tried "The machine", but as you probably now, no hits, at least..:) . So, if you have some spare time, please give some more hints I can search on. Cause I´m looking forward to meet your Siu-Fu. I really do.

As for my credibility, I´m not to worried. Even if my answers don´t please the way you look upon Wing Chun. I´m sorry about that. You may dislike my opinion, you´re welcome. I´m not feeling offended, as I don´t like yours. So what.
I even think you can do better than accusing me of several identities.

Peter van der Weerden

[sunkuen]

that folks is economy of motion!!!

[IronFist]

Hey, can you guys stop hijacking my thread? :D As much fun as it is to watch you argue about who amongst us sucks, it doesn't help keep the thread on topic very much, does it?

IronFist

[Peter Aarts]

In fact, my argue with mr. Coleman gives partly answer to your question. It seems indeed there is much difference in lineages regarding the form. As I already said: 1000 different Wing Chun styles, 1000 different SLT (SNT) forms. This also implicates the form is more than a good training exercise. Its the fundament for the applications in Wing Chun.
So, its true, we learn from every fight.

[Botha]

He Aussie,

Don't make fun of my disease. I'm not allowed to make fun of yours. Isn't fair, right?

Concernig this thread I think you need to do your forms correctly. How many correct ways are there? I don't think it can be many. If you don't need your form for fighting, why do the form? If you do need the form for fighting, then it would be strange if I altered the moves when fighting. I think every movement you need in wingchun can be found in the forms. Why else are there forms? So if your moves in fighting are different then in your forms, or the other way around, then the moves are not correct.

[vingtsunstudent]

one more time for
peter pan from nether netherland

do give up everything as easily as you did this-
sifu+barry+lee on google
vts

[IronFist]

Hey, someone give me the correct answers to those questions I was asked on page 3! :D


IronFist

[IronFist]

bump for answers :)

IronFist

[IronFist]

bump for answers :)

IronFist