Whipping Hand and Roy... challenge/education?

[black and blue]

I've just re-posted this as a seperate thread. Whipping Hand and Roy were having a bit of a tiff with Empty Cup. I would love to get some response to the questions below. Anyone with the ability/honesty to reveal their knowledge of the forms... start typing. Money where the mouth is, and all that...


Roy and Whipping Hand

Not wanting to argue, but where in the forms does it teach you to escape the mount if some fat SoD is sitting on your chest, squeezing the air out of your lungs and pounding your face?

I've just taken part in a seminar on ground fighting (given by my Wing Chun instructor). Where in the forms do you learn how to deal with a bear-hug from a 320lbs guy as strong as an ox?

Don't talk about double low palm from the rear in SNT! When there is no gap between you and your opponent and your arms are pinned by the attacker behind you... well, you are in trouble. You need to learn... wait... before I explain what I was learning, tell me about what the forms recommend.

This post isn't an attack on WC (I study it and love it). I don't agree with everything EC says, but I would very much like to hear what Roy and WH (or anyone else) has to say regarding this issue.

Please... no talk of "you must look to the forms". Someone offer real explanations.

Many thanks,

Duncan


__________________

:)

[whippinghand]

see other thread

[old jong]

If...You are mounted or caught in a bear hug or whatever the "grappling" situation....It means you made a mistake or for some reason you could not make your Wing Chun work for you!
Nobody is unbeatable and no style or system has all the answers. There is always someone bigger,stronger,faster,wiser,better prepared,with better luck!...You have to train well and be aware that these things do exist and could happen to you. You could also learn some counter moves from these styles just in case.(I'm sure you do already! ;) )
Wing Chun is a fighting system not a self-defense tricks collection. If you use Wing Chun right, you should not need to use those moves. But there is nothing wrong in learning a few for the fun of it! ;)
It is as simple and realist as that!

[OdderMensch]

sorry couldn't resist. :D

with the mount i know and train getting out of that, but do not yet fully understand where in the forms the answers are "hidden".

but the bear hug, we've learned a counter to that one from day one in our kwoon.

one) assume you are "asleep at the wheel" and some big mother gets behind you and bear hugs you first use huen bo (circleing stem from bui jee) to snake ( i think its called grapvining) the guys leg so he dosent just pick you up and drop you on your head.

two) use the slight hip turn of Chwin ma (sp?) turning stance from CK, to make the space you need to unleash the afore unmetionable rear palm strike ( i make it a fist since i know its a "soft" target :) )

three) in the moments time you have now given yourself to use a (bac jarn) sholder butt
(hmm from the unmetionable part of SLT) as you raise your arms out and slip out under the brutes arms(and force).

four) as soon as you are free run, or use the tuning stance from CK and make him regret sneaking up on you.

this sounds complex only because i cant show it to you, and i am trying to make specific WC form refrences.

when this was taught to me i didn't know SLT let alone the huen bo steps of bui jee. but looking back its all there.

[old jong]

If...You are good enough to make that "escape" from various forms work...You should not need it in the first place! It would be in fact very difficult and hazardous to grab you in the first place.
In the meantimes, why not try some usefull and easy self-defense tricks like this one! (http://www.gracieacademy.com.xohost.com/multimedia/moveofmonth.shtml) It may not be "sacred technique" as we like them but, you don't need to be more catholic than the pope to defend yourself! ;)

[Merryprankster]

I'm sorry. I'm well aware that I don't really belong on this forum, but I just wanted to point something out:

Old Jong--sometimes, it's not that you have done something wrong... it's that the other person has done something RIGHT! I get it from new guys all the time... they ask what they did wrong... and sometimes the answer is that they didn't do anything wrong, per se, it's just that the other guy did something right.

Also, I was up in Montreal a couple of weekends ago. Wonderful eating.

[old jong]

First of all, you belong anywhere you want in this forum. You are welcome to post anytimes you want here.
I agree with you all the way! If you look at my first post in this thread you will see it clearly. Nobody can be perfect all the times and sometimes the other guy can be too perfect!...

I'm glad you enjoyed your stay in Montreal.
:)

[anerlich]

I'll bite on this one.

If you are mounted ...

From the dummy set, sequence 1 in TWC, larp or huen sao cross arm (your R arm against his R arm, and L against L) control his elbow and pin it to your body. With the other arm, grab the back of his neck or opposite collar (also per dummy sequence 1). Huen bo the leg on the same side as the arm you have pinned to your body so your foot is outside and over his lower leg, thus controlling the lower leg and foot on that side (from CK, BJ or 6th dummy sequence in TWC). Bridge and roll (not in the forms, unless you choose it to be an analog of the turning step - drawing a long bow IMHO) and take the guy over onto his back on the side of the leg and arm you have trapped.

In BJJ, this is called the "upa" or "bridge and roll escape from the mount".

Against a bear hug from the rear:

If the grip is not yet on, use the "bending" move at the end of BJ, with arm and hip thrusts in opposite directions, so that he cannot apply it. Your hips should jolt his body, your arms spreading his so he cannot close the grip, step away and turn, then run or attack.

If he gets the grip on, arms free (you have about a half second or less before a skilled person will lift you and/or take you down) one or more of:

reverse turning elbow strikes from BJ (what you are doing after the forward dropping elbow strikes - you can just "bring them back" but that's pretty unimaginative) - once you "create space" the reverse palm strike to the goolies may be an option - head butts are fun too, but any half decent wrestler will bury his head next to your body to stop this

The aforementioned "bending" move from BJ, followed by picking up the leg and take him down to your rear, followed by kneebar, groin stomp, etc. The showoffs with sucidal tendencies could try the forward rolling kneebar from this position as well.

Grip on, both arms pinned (here you will be going down VERY quick) - stamp his feet/shins, squirm, butt, hip check until you can get one or two elbows out, after which you immediately start wailing away with them followed by othe other techniques above.

The rear bear hug is not much use on its own, both the guys arms are busy, but it is enormously useful as a prelude to a takedown, possibly onto assorted hard and/or sharp objects.

Wing Chun can be adapted to the ground game. WC hand techniques arguably appear in BJJ techniques such as the basic armbar from guard and the half nelson lapel choke from side mount. The forms contain techniques like cutting armbars (CK, BJ), rear naked choke (SLT), osotogari (7th TWC dummy sequence) arm drags (CK) and the abovementioned techniques.

Even the SLT opening sequence contains the basic cross collar choke - after you cross the hand low, bring the up high with the palms facing you; imagine them slipped into either side of the collar next to the opponent's neck - what do you do? - close fists and try to pull the elbows together behind your back - like in the forms.

The forms contain myriads of applications for all circumstances. That said, IMO BJJ and other grappling arts have far superior training modalities for the fight on the ground. Disagree? See if I care, I got enough training partners.

Success of any of these techs is never guaranteed (nor for that matter, any other WC tech in the forms). The same thing applies to the guy attempting the go behind or the clinch takedown to the mount.

Saying "if you get taken down or clinched, you have failed in WC" does nobody any good. In the real world $hit happens, and like the T-shirt says, you have to "just deal with it".

[OdderMensch]

as i said we learn that defense from day one, it seems complex because of my clumsy use of WC form reffrences (as requested by the org. poster)

nice clip btw, our defense is similar except we dont try to step behind and lift, we slip under and hit. notice how he seems to begin his step behind with his hip moveing to the side to turn his body & swing his leg around? we we just move the hip a bit and take that groin shot. we then shift the body down while shooting the top of back/sholder into the chest of the opponent. then run if free or beat if not.

[C. Martin]

Hey, Odder, you still training with Sifu Cotrell?

[Merryprankster]

Don't reach up to grab his neck. This leaves you open for an armbar. As you bridge, the top person has the potential to shift their weight forward, with their knee behind your head. This will block your ability to snatch the arm back down by cupping it with their hip and thigh. The armbar is not far behind. Even if the top person's posture seems to prevent the armbar, the opportunity for recovery and weight shift comes at the moment of bridging. Many armbars come out of a bridge and roll attempt in which the far arm is extended and up.

A better solution is to do what you suggested, but leave the arm down and close to the chest. If you have trapped the leg and arm properly, as you described, and then bridge and turn, then you should be ok.

[hunt1]

Good stuff,you forgot 1 anti bear hug technique to use when the hug is locked in.Drop and go limp and attack the grip.Much harder for a lift and sweep or suplex with dead weight. This will buy a few seconds.

[anerlich]

Thanks for the pickup, you are correct.

[Merryprankster]

Also, I just noticed the post about having your arms "pinned" with the legs while the person on top is beating on your face. You need to try and come out the back door on that one. Bump to throw their weight forward and then hook your feet under their armpits. Use this to wriggle out the back door, if their weight continues to be forward, or if they are high and have leaned back, use your legs to push them up and back.

[Roy D. Anthony]

Funny how everyone jumps to answer the question when the post was directed at Whippinghand and myself. LOL are people afraid of being wrong on the forum?.......keep showing your fears people...LOL.

Well Black and Blue , the saying that when one lands on the ground one is finished or licked as Anarlich says, actually means you are dead. any of the take downs force one to land on their head. very dangerous. that is why Ip Man took these out of the forms.

However if your opponent does not successfully take you down the way he or she is supposed to, you still have a chance of getting out. The trick is in your Yee Jee Kim yeung ma, and I've said enough already!!! now use your imagination and work it out Black and Blue. and connect this with whatever Whippinghand has said about grappling in all his posts and you may figure it out. Hope this helps!!!

[black and blue]

Well, to be honest not 'that many' people answered (though in truth, responses came over two seperate threads), but the answers were, on the whole, good and detailed.

Have a look at Rene's post in the other thread - he seems to have approached the topic with a very balanced view. Which is good - people always talk of WC as an evolving art, but sometimes seem very slow to embrace this concept.

Not that I'm advocating we chuck out the forms :D

Everyone's input is of value to me - some of you guys have been training for 10 + years. I have to assume some of you know what you're talking about :cool:

That said, I'm disappointed to hear material was taken out of the forms because it was deemed 'dangerous'.:confused:

Many thanks to those who took the time to type.

Duncan

[Kuen]

Mr. Anthony-

Where did you get that the take downs had been removed from the forms? Even at my low level I'm able to see take downs, throws, cum na, etc.

Also, I would be curious to hear yours and Mr. Hands answer to his question. As a former submission wrestler I've yet to meet anyone in our family (even those with 25+ years of experience) who can even remotely keep up with me on the ground or in the clinch so I'd appreciate it if you could give me a reasonable answer. As you and Mr. Hand have set yourselves up as authorities on the subject I suspect the honor of the family could best be saved by not skirting the issue and giving a direct answer.

[burnsypoo]

you know, I bet Aquaman could kick your a$$ underwater.

-BP-

[Kuen]

comic books tend to fade and tear underwater. :D

[anerlich]

Roy said:


the saying that when one lands on the ground one is finished or licked as Anarlich says, actually means you are dead

I don't think I said that, plus you misspelled my screen name. Details, man!


that is why Ip Man took these out of the forms

Jeez, compound those omissions with those made when Leung Jan made up the modified version of WC ;), it's ****ed amazing that any of the forms have more than a couple moves in them.


LOL are people afraid of being wrong on the forum?.......keep showing your fears people...LOL

Well I gave a detailed answer and Merryprankster picked up one mistake therein, so I guess I don't fall into that category. Since you made the two mistakes mentioned above, I'm glad to see you don't either, though your post *was* a little short on detail.

[reneritchie]

Kuen,

I did Judo in elementary school and again in college and have tried *a little* sw. Just curious what brought you to WCK from that background?

Rgds,

RR

[Sihing73]

HI Rene,

Interesting, I also did Judo when younger. I had actually obtained a Black Belt, 1st Dan around 13 years of age. I used to compete and was getting ready for my 2nd Dan when I was about 15-16 years of age. Anyhow, I met a guy while doing basic work at an office near my home, taking out trash, cutting grass etc. I thought I was pretty bad and since he was from China I kept pestering him about whether or not he knew "kung fu". Anyhow, one day he showed me what he knew :rolleyes: he put me on the ground a few times but never hurt me. As I was looking up at him I asked what he used and he replied "WING CHUN". I asked him to teach me he said no and my journey began. I found every book I could get on Wing Chun and even joined the Army to get near a Wing Chun school Of course, after joining the Army a William Cheung school opened in Philly :eek: . Still he made quite an impression on me and he didd eventually show me some basics of the system.

I have found my previous exposure to Judo to be helpful; as Chi Sau is about sensitivity, energy and disruption of balance and Judo is also about sensitivity to balance and use of the opponents energy. Though not exactly the same many of the principles can be applied in either system.

Peace,

Dave

[reneritchie]

Hi Dave,

I did some competition in elementary school. I only lasted a couple of years, though. The teacher was really good, but the location (high school gyms) kept changing and the conditions (old, nasty wrestling mats) weren't great so I eventually stopped. I went back to it in college because I needed gym credits 8). I enjoyed it more when I was older, though.

I had a very similar experience with WCK, though I was doing "karate" at the time. I was lucky enough in that the old Chinese sifu agreed to teach me (still don't know why!). I'm not sure it was WCK specifically (didn't know what it was back then) - if he'd been that skillful in Bagua or something else, I would have learned from him anyway! It was only later, when I started looking at IKF (sorry Gene, no KungFu Magazine back then! ;) that I realized the legacy (or baggage) that comes with WCK.

I agree with you about the qualities in Judo and WCK that are common. Since we're all human (well, most of us at least ;) and if our goal is to achieve success through relaxation, non-resistance of force, to use tactile sensitivity etc., there's bound to be some cross-over.

Rgds,

RR

[Kuen]

In answer to your question:

I made friends with a guy who did WC and we began to exchange information. The conceptual aspects of the system really appealed to me as well as it's history and the fact that I thought it was a more complete art than what I had been exposed to in the past. I also wanted to learn a martial art that would allow me to continue training until the day I die and I feel I get that from WC. Anyway, after a while he had to move so I began to look for an actual school and since there is only one in the whole area the choice was pretty clear. I really love the art (even though some of the personalities involved I could do with out) and after a few years I've realized that WC can hang with ANY martial art as long as you want to put the blood, sweat and tears into it. It can be frustrating at times because I only know 3 other people who do WC in my area (and they don't seemed to be quite as obsessed with it as I am) and they don't spar so I have to find other non-WC opponents and make sure I try my best not to fail the art. In my post to Mr. Anthony I didn't mean to make it seem I thought something was wrong with WC but I hear a lot of things about ground fighting and WC that I know aren't true so I was hoping he would prove me wrong. Now that said I have sparred some WC students with only a few years of training but because they trained very realistically they were able to give me a hard time, avoid my takedowns and throws, etc. while others such as some in the kung fu family I am currently in are good at Wing Chun but not necessarily good fighters if you see what I mean but that's okay because they are getting what they want out of it.

:cool:

[Roy D. Anthony]

Well Kuen, I believe that there is no need to defend my families honor here, since you're the only one thinking that I need to do so. That constitues an opinion on your part, not a fact.:)
The movments in the forms have been altered slightly to not include takedowns, but as you have experienced in our Moy Yat Lineage, take downs are practiced and usually shown to higher level students. Hope you understand what I'm talking about.:)

[yuanfen]

I dont know what wing chun you have seen. Common mistake in
many skilled arts to judge it by what you see in a sample that you define.. A good person in one art wont play the others game.

[Roy D. Anthony]

Right On man, well stated.:)

[Sihing73]

Hi Yuanfen,

Speaking of profiles being skimpy, which I noticed seems to be a pet peeve of yours :D Your profile is not that robust either. It fails to mention what family of Wing Chun you train in nor who your instructor is. Seems to me that if you are going to mention others who have a skimpy profile you should not accuse them of the same thing you have in your profile.

Having said that the points you made are valid and I am in agreement with them. I just wanted to point out the "profile" issue. :p

Peace,

Dave

Profile For yuanfen Search for all posts by this user.

Date Registered: 12-31-1969
Status: Senior Member
Total Posts: 474 (0.04 posts per day)
Last Post: 03-06-2002 09:14 PM
Whipping Hand and Roy... challenge/education?
Contact yuanfen: Click here to email yuanfen
Homepage: http://www.azwingchun.com
ICQ Number:
AOL Instant Messenger Handle:
Yahoo Instant Messenger Handle:
Birthday N/A
What's your MA style? :p
How long have you trained? :D
Biography enjoy good martial arts discussions,love/practice/teach wing chun, involved in several academic fields/sub fields.
Location Tempe. Arizona
Interests Varies with current curiosities.
Occupation Educator

[yuanfen]

Not doing your homework Sihing(?)/Moderator.!
Itchy fingers?On my profile page
my homepage is listed big as life--- who I am, what I look like, what is my lineage background, pictures of my students, even my dog-unlike my past ones he is only up to single stick,some of my articles,(unlisted is the recent November/December on in KUNGFU)
questions and answers, my direct email. my name, how long I have been in the art, which art, my background. Very few profile pages give that much info. Plus I gave an intro. to the list when I joined.
On the profile page big as life: <www.azwingchun.com>
So -good luck on your reading and the goals of evenhandedness and care in moderating.
yuenfan
aka joy chaudhuri
aka joyotpaul chaudhuri
aka joyotpaul dutta-chaudhuri
aka joyotpaul -sunil-duttachaudhuri
wingchun daily since 1976 very proudly in the Augustine Fong-Ho Kam Ming-Yip man line(other martial arts and sports before that)
but very much my own man-representing me-
Interested in comparative martial arts and TCMA concepts.
Opened first wing chun school in New mexico(las cruces) 1979
Current School-Tempe Wing Chun
Teach wing chun publicly, privately, on the ground, standing up,sitting down, hanging from chandeliers- zero bjj lessons
almost as perennial as yoda who originally was born near the Himalayas like me in the land of the Lotus. But have taught more Americans government than anyone still teaching witha few exceptions.(Sorry-Failed to impart reason in all-darkness remains)
Mind to mind transmission but no fake postings from inernet cafes
or Tora Bora.
nihil ultra

Anything else?
Reading and reflection is fast losing ground in the inetrnet world.
But the message is in the bottle-in my profile page-CLICK

[Sihing73]

Hi Joy,

While your homepage is listed that is an addition to the information provided in your profile. :) You like to point to the "skimpy" profiles which some members have. As you are doubtlessly aware, the amount of information provided in the profile is a matter of preference. When I want to read someones profile I prefer to read it at the profile page not have to search around the internet or visit another site to find out who the person is :rolleyes: . In my mind this is kind of like meeting you in person and you giving me a card and asking me to call your secretary to find out who you are. I mean why not provide the info in the format given :confused:

Personally, I don't care whether you wish to provide a "complete" profile or not, I mean the fields are there after all :p. But, to keep harping on others who choose not to list a profile to your liking is a bit old :( . Besides, maybe some of the others don't have a web page for you to visit, I guess then they should complete the predefined fields in the "PROFILE" section while people with web pages don't. Seems a bit unfair to me. If you want people to provide the complete profile then you should use the same format to provide yours as well. Anything else is gravy. :cool:

The Profile button is a seperate item then the WWW button. Perhaps there is a reason for that............Nah could never be :D

In any event I wish you, as well as everyone else, well. Just keep in mind that while you would not want to be told what to put in your profile neither does anyone else.

Peace,

Dave

[Kuen]

Mr. Anthony-

I know you know what you are talking about but I would like to see the poster satisfied. My experience has been that those who refuse to discuss a subject do so because they are afraid they might be wrong. This is why I asked you to prove me wrong.
What burnsypoo said about Aquaman being able to win in a fight underwater is true because that's the range he works and we don't. There's no loss of face there; but we need to be honest with ourselves that our skills may not work on the level that Aquaman's do under water. To say that I will never fall into water
or that those who will admit they can't fight in Aquaman's range have some sort of "bad" Wing Chun is a cop out.


JC-
Sorry, but unlike yourself I am not trying to be a "somebody" in the WC world. It's funny that you are so quick to condemn others who don't share your views or may take other forms of WC, (such as your comments concerning HFY). Also, your assumption that I am inexperienced is wrong. I've stuck hands with some of Augustine Fong's students and actually watched you Chi Sao in person so I have a good idea of what you can do.

In fact a kuen kuit from your Sifu's collection comes to mind:

People do not know the extent of my skills, but I know their abilities.
Good advice don't you think?

[yuanfen]

Dave-touch a nerve -no. Simply not impressed with your post. I dont let my nerves do the talking.Just think as i have mentioned to you that this is the most erratically moderated forum in the KFO.
Kung lek and Gene are both pretty good models... light touch does it unless fight challenges and sustained lineage attacks take place. There are many ways to administer rules... one can
calibrate appropriately.
My website gives more information than most and it is easily accessible..Those that dont have that info can atleast give style, sifu, experience info to help the discussion along rather than the troll games that have shifted here from other non wc forums.
Most give near zero info. And you still havent figured out how to
elevate the info and minimize the noise with the quasi pc
comments.
You censor some folks' reference to others but you allow the crack pipe reference to Yip man- you comment on peoples styles
- not much illumination there.Respecting Yip man is atleast as important as civility to average sifus.

[yuanfen]

kuen-
Trying to be somebody in the wc world.? Got it wrong. Too small a world among net addicts and virtual wing chun.There is life beyond KFO and lists.
Seen me chi sao? I adjust to whatever is there.Appropriate gears for the appropriate work at hand. / Seeing and touching are quite different things in wing chun. Of course i dont think that all wing chun sytems are made of the same quality.
Cheers.

[Sihing73]

Hi Joy,

Please forgive me for my erratic behavior. Obviously I need to agree with you fully otherwise I must be wrong. It seems to me that you are a bit defensive. All I did was mention that you like to point out peoples lack of information in their profiles. You also do seem to have a lack of respect for those who differ in opinion that yourself. However, that is just one of several perspectives.

From your own website I find the following:
"No advocacy of any initiation of violence or the deprivation of anyone's rights or anti-social activity by minors or adults is intended or encouraged"

Seems to me that you want everyone to adhere to your wishes. If someone disagrees with you, seems like thier right, you point to the lack of information found in the profile. I guess the amount of information, or lack of it, to be found in someones profile is the true measure of their skill. :rolleyes: Or is it that as long as they agree with your views they are okay?? Why then does your website seem to promote the assertion of peoples rights?

I would like you to find any post of mine in which I have been disrespctful of Yip Man or anyone else for that matter, even you :)
While I wish I had the time to wander around the internet from board to board and site to site, as some do, I find my time limited. Thus, I do what I can here. Some people are outright supermen being able to work, post on numerous boards and have a family life. Oh, they also train as well. Makes me wonder how they find the hours in the day. I don't know about you but I only have 24 hours in each day.

I would also like for you to show me where and whose styles I have commented on. At least in any derogatory way. I don't recall bashing or putting down anyone wishing to train in a different method of Wing Chun while the same can not be said for some others ;) .

Joy, if you do not like my methods that is fine. We can agree to disagree. If you wish to offer some constructive criticism then that would also be welcome. I am not saying that I will accept everything you say but I will at least consider whether I find it has merit. But, if you want to put others down because they don't measure up to your views, whether it because they do a different version of Wing Chun or they don't include all you think they should in a profile, I think the problem may be of a more personal nature. Sometimes one must look inside before they can venture outward.

I honestly don't see why someones profile is of such importance to you. When one reads a post they can tell if the words have meaning. Shoot, one can put anything they want down however it is how they express what they know which should be important.

FWIW, I don't particularily like trolls either. I guess we should have them all put TROLL in their profile so we can tell who they are :D Just kidding Joy :)

Peace,

Dave
Listen if you really wish to discuss this further I suggest either opening a new thread or doing it via e-mail. I have no problem discussing this further but I think it may be moot unless something constructive comes out of it. I have no interest in keeping a dissagreement going that ends nowhere.

[yuanfen]

Dave- I might surprise you how rights oriented i am. Disagreeing with someone is no measure of right orientation. I will state this carefully-
there is a difference between free speech and good speech -
]a very important distinction. Upholding someone's right of speech and commenting on the substance of that speech is again an important distinction. I ama proud member of both ACLU and NAACP.
Regarding the profile bit- Communications involve parties-it helps to understand where a person is coming from- a response to a genuinely interested newbie or
someone seriously interested in differences in styles can point towards an approprpriate response. Sui Ws profile tends to point to a different response- the comment on Yip Man and crack pipe is in one of his posts. Check it out.(Shame on you sui w)
Expecting people to adhere to my wishes- where do you get that?
That is a power relationship- least of my interests or orientation.
My advice on moderation- let the discussions flow.moderate less, distinguish between your particpants hat and moderators hats, just watch for troll epidemics and repeated personal attacks on sifus, extremely foul name calling, violations of law and civil rights
and personal challenges. I believe that is keeping with KFO goals.
Sit back, albeit alertly and watch the flow.
I actually keep hoping to learn from the list rather than listen to the posturing.. Honest Injun.

[Roy D. Anthony]

I have to agree with Yuanfen on this one 73. Your apologies are always with a bite. They shouldn't be that way. It is utterly wrong of you to do as a moderator sorry to say.

Even though you are a better moderator than the Ving Tsun forum, you should still aim to remain neutral sorry to say.and also leave your family problems out of your excuses, that is very unprofessional. I feel that Yuanfen should receive an honest apology, not a sarcastic one.

[JasBourne]

Yeah, well. So, back to the topic of bearhugs. What's with all this fancy cha-cha-cha? Some big monster grabs you from behind, do the simple, direct, brutal stuff - headbutt his face, grab his nutz and twist, crush his instep. Then you can have all the cool WC fun.

Feh. This forum is getting full of prissy nellies all complaining about each other's manners. Sometimes I hate being a wingchunner. The only thing that matters is if your kungfu does what you say it does. Everything else is ego.

[anerlich]

Jas,

the original question was whether you could defend against the mount or a rear clinch using techniques from the forms. I personally found this to be an interesting and thought-provoking topic. I even learned a few things from it (thanks MerryPrankster, hunt1).

Feel free to post your impressions on that particular subject.

Somehow it veered into this "clash of the (would-be) titans" thing about PC. I like technical discussions, and slipping banana skins under the stances of those who think they somehow have some right to pontificate or lecture to others about how to post or act.

Plenty of opportunity for the latter here, don't you think?

S73, let these other experts do your job for a while if they have so many complaints. Somehow I think things will NOT get better.

[reneritchie]

Hey Andrew,

I was enjoying the technical discussion as well (though I didn't realize it drifted over here and left my comments on the previous thread - doh!)

I think another aspect that's interesting is when sparring with bjj, judo, etc. people, I find the dynamics of throws changes. Many stand-up fighters aren't used to being thrown so when you take them down with WCK, it can pretty much end things right there (or you can easily follow up with the gwai ma (wck knee on body)). With the bjj/judo/etc. folks, they seem better able to control themselves when taken down, and can get into defensive positons (guard) and keep going, which means (at least in my experience) the tactics of dealing with them are a bit different.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Rgds,

RR

[anerlich]

[I}gwai ma - wck knee on body[/I]

In BJJ this is called "knee on stomach" or "knee ride". A lot of beginners tap to this the first time they get caught in it, indeed I had a fun time yesterday when my Sifu tried REALLY HARD to get me to do the same in a free roll yesterday. On top you basically grab the guy at two points, say sleeve and pants leg and try to pull your knee through his body to the floor. One of Frank Benn's famous rec.m-a posts detailed how good a position this can be for dealing with a grounded opponent (with punches, ground and pound) while still being able to get up and bolt quickly if it goes multiopponent.

You can almost pull a cutting armbar to a supine opponent out of the "drop-knee" section of BJ in TWC, just to bring it back to the forms. My Sifu once used the sudden level change from this move to shoulder throw someone who tried to grab him around the neck from behind.

I think it just comes down to familiarity. If your getting taken down and rolling around every training session, you're going to be more comfortable and have access to more skills than someone who doesn't.

[OdderMensch]

Yeah, well. So, back to the topic of bearhugs. What's with all this fancy cha-cha-cha? Some big monster grabs you from behind, do the simple, direct, brutal stuff - headbutt his face, grab his nutz and twist, crush his instep. Then you can have all the cool WC fun.

:D

Thats more how we begin people on that drill. Hit the nutz, shoot out under, elbow, palm & knee. The headbutt while shooting out is gratutitous, but fun ;)

[Roy D. Anthony]

So have you figured out the answer yet?

[reneritchie]

Hi Andrew,

I was thinking more along the lines of the vale tudo style kneeling position than the strict bjj one, where you're using it to control for a short time while doing that very pounding (ala Sperry vs. White in your Australian UFC ;) ).

I remember some throws from judo where you drop down on one knee (wrap throws?). They were never my favorite (seemed lower percentage at the time) but definately something to think about.

Familiarity is definately a good thing. Judoka tend to be hard to throw because they're always being thrown (just like WCK people tend to be hard to hit), whilst they have a fairly easy time throwing other people who haven't experienced throws. Similarly, I think it just takes a little practice to use the WCK structure to defend against throws as well.

Rgds,

RR

[Merryprankster]

Jas--

Have you ever tried your defense, on somebody who knows what a rear bearhug is for (not restraining) and how to apply it?

I'm curious, because I don't see attending to your balance or escaping your hips as the first priority. The strikes are instead emphasized. I find this to be a real problem.

You can do the strikes you've suggested, but only after you've reached a position of "safety" with regards to your balance.

A proper rear bearhug, whether over or under the arms, is applied by eliminating as much space between the bodies as possible to control the hips (hip to hip). If I control your hips (center), I control your body. The hip to hip position help shut down the space needed to do the shot to the jumblies. The head is tucked in to help foil the headbutt. While all this is going on, it's "lift, turn, and drop." If you sink to avoid getting lifted, while still allowing me to have control of your hips, then you get tripped with a foot prop or a knee prop.

What I don't want to do is try and turn this to a "technique vs. technique," thing. I'm REALLY trying to emphasize how important getting your hips out of there and creating some room is. Once that's done, you're FAR better off.

I'm not suggesting that the accompanying strikes won't work, but you've GOT to get those hips away FIRST. If I've missed that crucial detail by not being familiar with WC, then I apologize :)

Anerlich--LOVE knee on belly for self defense. It's the perfect position for abusing your opponent and being able to leave in a hurry.

[hunt1]

Yes!Few however understand what is really in the forms.

WC clearly contains many methods for putting a man to the ground.It is foolish to think that when the art was developed they used sweeps but never considered what would happen if they were swept or thrown.I talked about this very thing a few months ago.

Merry is right once a rear bear hug is locked in you are in trouble and have only a moment to act if the hugger has any idea what they doing.Gravity control is crucial.

Since my WC has some non Yip Man elements I would say the answers are found in 2 places if you know the correct forms.First the pole form provides many methods of dealing with grapplers and provides a very nice answer to the rear bear hug.The pole form motions were selected for a reason.Weapon forms are merely open hand forms done with a weapon.

Second I was taught a kneeling section to Bui Jee.Answers are also found there. I believe many dont have a kneeling section in Bui Jee because the concepts are contained in the pole form.This is just personal opinion.

[Peter Aarts]

The pole form motions were selected for a reason. Weapon forms are merely open hand forms done with a weapon
This is not true. It should be the other way round.
In the old days, people used to fight each other in the first place with weapons, such as knives, and not bare handed. When it was forbidden for political reason for common people to carry these weapons, people started to develop bare handed fighting methods. These methods were developed from the already existing weapon methods!!
This is why the weapon forms are the highest in Wing Chun. They´re the most genuine.

[hunt1]

While if we go back to the beginning of fighting you are correct in regards to WC the one area all the various histories tend to agree on is that WC started with open hands and the weapons and the weapon forms were added later.

The weapons may show the highest skill level and concepts in WC but it is not because the weapons are more genuine.

All WC empty hand forms can be performed with the knives.The value of the form is the concepts it teaches .These concepts apply to empty hand as well as weapons.

[Peter Aarts]

All WC empty hand forms can be performed with the knives

This is one more reason to believe the knive form is the original one.

[Roy D. Anthony]

Good points from both of you guys. However one point I would like to make is that you can't do the Siu Lim Tao with the Baat Chaam Do, somehow it doesn't fit. This is partly due to the way it is generally done by many of the Hong Kong lineages. It is different in the mainland forms where the Swords do fit. :)

[reneritchie]

Hi Roy,

Yes, there seems to be something about the yin/yang palm changes we do that take account for the knives fairly close from the beginning. Not sure if all the mainland folk do it that way, something interesting to look into.

Rgds,

RR

[Roy D. Anthony]

The bear Hug Defense is one of the easiest to get out of. Use your Chum Kiu Skills. The Answer is there.:)

[Sabu]

I love that one..... And then follow up with tan sau, bong sau, lap sau, kwan sau, jit sau, gan da, fuk sau, wu sau, biu sau.

[Roy D. Anthony]

You got it Empty Cup......:)

[yuanfen]

Yes. WC is beautiful even on the ground and despite the karmic
reappearance as Michelle Yeoh-even Rolling Hand put his donut away in sheer wonder.

[Roy D. Anthony]

So anyone have any ideas which forms have what grappling techniques.let's keep this thread alive!!!!

[sunkuen]

In the slt ,one of the grappling moves is the fook sau at the beginning. Some sifu's call the fook sau's at the beginning "Pulling the thread". This applies when on the floor and your opponent is on top of you ,you give him a GOTCHIE. Simply grab the opponents underpants and perform the fook sau movements from slt. When done properly the opponent has no defence for this secret technique. YOU GUY"S OWE ME BIG FOR SHARING THIS ONE!!!:D

[Alpha Dog]

You got that one? Grapplin' for gotchies -- write it down.

[reneritchie]

Hey Roy,

Thanks for the reality check on the thread! Let's see...

(please note, all or none of this could be "true", all depends on your own PoV)

The opening has the basics for standing leg control/lock/fold/break.

SLT has the basic spiral turning which is great for counter-grappling and twist/fold style kum na (resembling standing JJ small joint manipulation). Andrew mentioned the reverse cross choke, which was sweet 8)

Chum Kiu has the torque leg stuff, the naked choke (classmate of mine actually won a local vale tudo with that almost 10 years ago), the gillatine choke, several torque throws, etc.

Biu Jee has the circle sweep & clothesline, the reverse armbar, the americana/keylock, (the shoulder throw if you want to *really* stretch the bend over at the end, and the behind heel pick if you want to *really* stretch the reverse ;) )

Dummy has double arm locks, the reverse shoulder/elbow lock, more leg locks, more arm locks, etc.

The pole is full of classic Guangdong fist locks (grab other person's arm, use as pole) and horse locks.

Knives can add wicked power to previous.

San Sik has the kneel, which we discussed previously. Heck, you could try to extend the Kim Yeung Ma into a weird form of knee-control open guard if you wanted to work it out ;)

How about you? Anyone else?

RR

[yuanfen]

Just about any motion in wing chun can be used for multiple purposes whether the parties are upright, or one is upright or both are horizontal. I dont think in terms of specific techniques-
a limiting idea. My opponent will help me decide what is going to
happen to him. One has to sense the relationship and then internalised wing chun takes over. Certainly good learning and good practice are crucial. The more you do good chi sao you pick
up on the RELATIVE strengths and weaknesses in a given situation.

[Rolling_Hand]

--Certainly good learning and good practice are crucial.

In your case, you need a good teacher who could show you the real Wing Chun. If you couldn't find one, please try Yip Man's 116 wooden dummy.

[yuanfen]

Thank you for your concern Rolling Hand. I have had very good
hands on teaching as has my teacher and his teacher and i dont need to learn from someones later
commercial publication of someone else's attempt at arrangement of a group of separate pictures of Yip man on the dummy. But I have seen the 116 picture book and other books and also have an autographed copy of Moy yat's "Green" dummy book.
Interlinrage civlity restricts any critiques. How about you-tell us how you learned and do the dummy.

[Rolling_Hand]

--I have had very good hands on teaching as has my teacher...

People haven't been entirely honest - and that includes those you trust most. Nevertheless they have their reasons. Tell them you're all ears.

--and I don't need to learn from someone.

A folksy approcach makes critics look like spoilsports... Om Mani Peme Hum!

[yuanfen]

Really RH- the proof is in the pudding and checking things up and down the line-not blind faith.And whther things actually work.
And did you RH apply a quality controlled standardized litmus paper
test on your teachers honesty claims and his teachers/ Who are they, honestly?
My background is in my website(see profile)---tell us about yours-lets discuss some things about honesty....dropping the
cheap shot and the anonymity and going as far as the list parameters allow about discussing your background as well.
This bulletin board edges- albeit not by much at times- the VTAA's-
in quality-do you really wish to erase the difference?. Show your honesty and courage and lets discuss things in the open...not VTAA style.

I would and could discuss lots of honesty issues in wing chun-
but most list protocols have their limits RH...allowing little anonymous pot shots like yours. But that kind of discussion is not likely to improve your or list member's wing chun.

[Rolling_Hand]

LOL!!!

Your argument has more holes than swiss cheese. Be patient...you possess the seeds to your future fortune.

[yuanfen]

RH

The cowardly mouse(TH) took some of the cheese to his dark hole.
Obviously you shun the light.
So keep your furtive ways. Soon the count for ignoring your same old same old posts will go up. Surely from this end!!

[Alpha Dog]

:rolleyes:

[Rolling_Hand]

Yuanfen

You aren't WH and you couldn't dance!!

[yuanfen]

:D

[yuanfen]

:D

[Roy D. Anthony]

Please keep bashing out if this thread. We were doing so well, and it doesn't look good on your background!!! Thanks would be greatly appreciated.:)

[Nat from UK]

Keep going guys/gals

I am learning here - and I am not to far up my own a$$ to admit it! - This is a good thread

Best thread for ages - best since someone posted pretty pictures of stances and stance drills (wish i could find that thread again)

Forum = exchange of ideas/opinions

Nat From UK

[Rolling_Hand]

--it doesn't look good on your background!!!

hahaha....< explain !? >

[yuanfen]

Well Nat responding positively to yur question and Roy's challenge to keep the thread going: You probably have seen what we call the "inside rolling hand" motion which is a motion form the mok jong. The motion involves fok sao motion with one hand but with
the elbow up- about a bong sao position. The other hand does a jam sao.It is an important motion in one section of the dummy.
You can use that motion for a whole variety of things including wing chun's version of grappling- not greco-roman, free style, jj etc...if some one reaches for you---if your timing is right you can fok and lop with one hand(fok is the mother of the lop) and withe coordinated jam of the other hand put someone down-smashing them on hard ground and breaking their elbow in the process.
I have my students go through that drill often(with control btw). Best shown.
Easy to be skeptical or cynical with list posts.