Sash Rankings

[Yung Apprentice]

In Tang Shou Tao, Hsing-Yi, what are the different rankings or "dwans" in this system? What is the highest degree in this sash sytem?

[Fu-Pow]

If its Chinese and its Kung Fu there shouldn't be any "ranking."

[red_fists]

Yung Apprentice.

There shouldn't be any sashes or ranks in CMA.

I now some Kwoons now have adopted a modified I-Dan Ranking system, in order to compete with the BB Factories, JMA & KMA styles.

Seeya.

[Yung Apprentice]

Tang Shou Tao is from Taiwan. It's Hsing-Yi that came to Taiwan, where they adopted the sash rankings system. I think the different degrees of the black sashes are called "dwans". Mike Patterson is from the Tang Shou Tao Hsing-Yi system, and so is the sifu that I'm interested in studying under. I just wanted to know what was the highest degree that one can be appointed.

[Kempo Guy]

Probably not of much help but Japanes styles generally go to 10th Dan.

I have heard that the Tang Shou Tao system of Xing Yi uses the belt rankings but unfortunately I don't know much about them.
Have you tried emailing Sifu Mike Patterson? He may be able to help.

KG

[Yung Apprentice]

Yeah I emailed him, and he hasn't got back to me yet. It was like three or four days ago.

[Yung Apprentice]

Mike Patterson wrote back saying traditionally, it goes up to 9th degree.

[xiong]

This topic will always get a response from me.

First off I don't know what the ranking system is for the group you asked about. Second I don't even really know what the ranking system is for my own school.

I think it comes down to a couple of things, wearing sashes at all, and acknowledgement of rank.

Sashes: some people wear them some do not. I was taught to wear a sash to reinforce the habit of sucking in your gut, some people say it is for protecting your organs. Either way it doesn't matter. So if you wear a sash as part of yoyr uniform why not have it pull double duty?

Ranks: If sifu, sigung, sihing aren't "ranks" I don't know what is? I don't understand the arguement against ranks as being inherently non chinese. The Japanese system is used because it is well defined and comprehensible in the U.S. at any rate.

In my school there are some students who I recognize as my seniors, but they like to defer to my belt because they don't wear one. To me that is just silly. Rank is about more than the belt, it's what you know. I wish that belt ranking could just be taken for what it is, a tool for the instructor. Some use it well, others do not.

[Yung Apprentice]

Do you study Hsing-Yi? If so is it the Tang Shou Tao system?

[norther practitioner]

xiong, I agree with you for the most part, but many will debate that just because you have been there longer/have a higher rank doesn't really mean squat. Or that belts are used to make money. I think if that is the case, get out of your mckwoon. I think as well that a ranking system can install an extra level of organization to your school if done correctly. Personally, there are 5 people in my school, so, well we don't need sashes right now, if we decide to expand, then maybe we'll adopt something as far as colors and make up some criteria.

[Fu-Pow]

If sifu, sigung, sihing aren't "ranks" I don't know what is?

They are not ranks. Rank implies a military structure or a hierarchy. A kwoon has a familial structure if anything. If a Chinese kung fu school doesn't have a familial structure and adopts a ranking system then it is non-traditional rather than the other way around.

I'll defer you to the hungkuen. net which has an excellent section on this very topic.

http://www.hungkuen.net/tradition-family.htm

and for contrast here is a website that is totally incorrect...

http://www.shaolin.com/temples_shaolin.html

In general I'd be wary of anyplace that adopts a ranking structure.

[red_fists]

Hi.

The Problem with the I-Dan ranking system is not so much the ranks, but how you classify them.

Quick history of the I-Dan System:
Jigoro Kano the inventor of Judo & the Dogi created a ranking system based on Japanese swimming ranks.

White Belt/No Belt - non-ranked Student
Black Belt - Beginner Rank upward (sho-dan/1st BB)/Advanced Student.
Red & White Belt - 5th Dan or Teacher.
This was done around 1897

In the 1950's the "Kyu/colored" ranks were added to gather for the US Soldiers studying as they wanted to see/show progress.

In the 1970's Womens BB and Kiddie ranks were added.
Now Kano intended the system only for Judo and no strict guidelines were layed out as to when and how each rank is awarded.

Prior to Kano each style used a Menkyo System(Licences):
They were as follows:
Menkyo - Allowed to teach style
Menkyo Kaiden - Full transmission has happened, student now allowed to modify system and start new style.
Densho scrolls - passed onto new lineage holders.

So there are NO controlling guidelines as to when each school & style will award any ranked or belt/sash and thus those are only valid within the system/school that they were awarded at.
So a Guy doing style X might be a Black sash in one school, but might be ranked a blue sash in.

It worked well for early Japanese MA as the ranks were split according to material studied and does not show "mastery" of the material.

So a Belt/Sash only shows that you have learned a certain amount and have shown needed basic skills & understanding in the material.
Kinda like a High School or Unversity Diploma.

IMHO, People today put too much meaning into ranks, belts/sashes, etc.

[Yung Apprentice]

I'd like to reiterate that this particular style came from Taiwan, where they adopted the sash ranking system. Pretty much any Tang Shou Tao system use them. (at least to my knowledge) the school I'd like to go to only has four sashes, and you don't start off with a sash.

[red_fists]

Hi Yung Apprentice.

Like I said those ranks and will be specific to that system and non-practicioners of the system might not be aware of particulars.

Either way having sash around your waist or not will not impact your MA skill.

[xiong]

Alot to respond to I'll try to get to everyone.

Northern Practitioner: I agree that part of deferring to others is their skill level. I am the same rank as people who are both above and below me in skill and time at the school. All I was referring to was a student who I tried to defer to as my senior, in both skill and time at the school, who does not wear a belt and defers to my green one. I find that silly, but maybe I shouldn't defer to him. Shifu does not charge for belts or testing and tests you when he feels like it. You can jump belts if you have covered alot of material between tests. I honestly don't understand what his rank system is but I think he follows the I-dan system. I think a successful system can be put in place with only a few "ranks" to help the Instructors have a way to organize classes and know where students are at a glance. You're lucky to be in a small class, one on one with Shifu is the best.

Fu Pow: Touche. They are somewhat of a filial nature in structure, although I still think that referring to someone as Master, or Grand Master is an honorific "rank". I will also agree that a ranking structure is an artificial construct and as such not "traditional". My arguement was that I don't see ranking as strictly anathema to CMA. I study Wushu by the way, which is considered by most as being non traditional.

Red Fists: Thanks for the info. I agree with the statements

"It worked well for early Japanese MA as the ranks were split according to material studied and does not show "mastery" of the material.

So a Belt/Sash only shows that you have learned a certain amount and have shown needed basic skills & understanding in the material.
Kinda like a High School or Unversity Diploma. " from your post.

Yung Apprentice: I am not sure if you were addressing me but I have learned some of the Xing Yi form in our Wushu curriculum. My Shifu is from Beijing.

Let me end this Tome by saying that I don't really care either way about belts, but it is a useful tool for the instructor and as I have learned in my professional life, you don't have to like it but you have to but into the program, especially if you are put n a management position. I also just don't see why a belt system would automatically disqualify a school from teaching CMA.

[Yung Apprentice]

Not I wasn't referring to you. In fact I've pretty much been agreeing with what you have been saying.


I think that a school that does incorporate a sash system is not nesissarily going to be a bad school. Just because a school "adopts" a sash ranking system, doesn't mean that it's not a traditional school either. (at least in my mind) If the teachings are traditional is that what counts?

[xiong]

Yeah, but some people just get hung up on the little things. I was just as prejudiced against Wushu before I visited Master Li's school, so I know in a sense where people are coming from.

I also agree that charging people for testing and restricting testing is not cool.

By the way have you started training, I vaguely remember you were looking into alot of schools in your area last year, but your profile doesn't list if you started. I agonized alot over getting started back up, but once I did I wondered what the hell took me so long.

I just read your post about the four sashes. Seems pretty typical for a school that ranks but doesn't use the I-dan system. Is that Tang Shou Tao (Tang Dynasty Hand Way) or is the Tang something else? I'm assuming it's not Soup or Candy.

[Yung Apprentice]

No not yet. Saving money to buy a vehicle first. Soon though, probably around summer. This is the school I'm leaning towards. There is one other school that I am also really considering. But I would rather study at the Hsing-Yi school. I couldn't tell you about the the Tang Shou Tao being something else, because I've only seen, heard, or read limited material on Tang Shou Tao.