Anybody with experience in "non-lethal" training?

[rogue]

Like CDT. http://www.cdt-training.com

On one hand it sounds interesting and the techniques sound like JJJ. But one thing I know about restraining techniques is that if you're alone and you pull it off, you now have a very irrate thug pinned down who wants to hurt you even more than when he started. You'd have been better off dropping him and getting out of there.

I've also noticed that the guy who teaches CDT also teaches a more lethal course.

So has anyone had any experience with this system? How easy is it to remember? How much practice must you do to keep the techniques usable? Is it a ripoff?

[gazza99]

It seems like a system praying on the fears of lawsuits. Everyone here that has been in a real life confrontation knows that there is a greater probability of surviving it if one does not try and control the opponent.
I suppose if there is an angle somone will find it...*shrug*

[Black Jack]

I think the CDT methods are put together as Gazza stated to pray on a lawsuit based public, a bit of the magic bean, I would stay away from the mindset with a ten-foot pole.

Now if it was just endorsed for maybe a specifc arena like health care proffesionals who work in dangerous mental health clinics and stuff like that, well then maybe there might be some grease there, but that is still up for grabs.

At least with JJJ you get the atemi, the striking, the kicking, the stuff that works.

Just my two cents.

[Water Dragon]

I was actually certified in something similar to this when I worked with the developmentally disabled in college. It works OK if you outnumber the person. But even then, I used to make a lot of trips to the ER.

[C. Martin]

1st Serious Problem - CDT can be learned in two days, according to their site. Facinating isn't it. A peace officer, or security pro, can learn this system in just two days! That means you will master how to deal with myriad of variables that arise in a combative encounter, with no more than 16 hours of class time! Hey, sign me up! I suppose in two days we'll cover, and learn to deal with all of the following:
1. Weapon Retention
2. Fear Management
3. Escalation and De-Escalation of Use of Force
4. Multiple Officer Engagement
5. Multiple Suspect Engagement
6. CQB Weapon Responses (including but not limited to: guns, knives, clubs, shanks, razors, long guns etc...)
7. Disengage to Firearm Transitions
8. Less lethal tactics to Deadly Force Transitions (of course if you learn CDT, this would never be necessary as you would ALWAYS be able to gain compliance from a resisting subject.)

2nd Serious Problem - Fancy joint locks and ju-mumbo jumbo will never impress Military Operators or Cops. K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Stupid. Tactical Engagements are seldom tactical at Close Quarters. It's a poo storm. Get it done quickly and painfully. Common sense is the best measuring stick for use of force, not some overly academic B.S. super control system. Though many agencies may like the candy coated verbage this crap is wrapped in, Street Cops know better. Operators who have been in it, know better.

Some people will train for years and be able to employ some of these tactics I'm sure, but for most this would be a BAD way to go. Two days I say again? What's next? Watch my sixty minute video and never fear another man again......oh wait, that's already been made. Crap!

[shaolinboxer]

I particularly enjoyed the photo of the cop pinning a guy with one hand on his jaw and pointing a gun at someone else in the distance.

Although the I can't disagree with the general principal of immobilization and control, I have my doubts about this particular method of execution. And to control someone instead of harming them into submission is insanely difficult and takes years of practice.

Looks to be a bit of a professional scam based on JJJ/Chin Na.

[guohuen]

Didn't check out the link but have trained in NAPI (non abusive physical intervention) and have some experiance with a more indepth form called SOLVE (NAPI with a talkdown phaze).
NAPI is very effective with people who are freaking out that you need to restrain without hurting. It's also good for keeping you out of harms way. Teaches headbutting avoidance, holds that keep the persons fingers away from your face and keeping the person off balance (if they're on there feet) to prevent shin kicks and foot stomps. Trial and error has shown mental health professionals that headbutting, face scratching and gouging, and shin kicks and foot and toe stomps are the most common ways people are injured trying to restrain someone.
Mind you if someone is trying to injure or kill me and not simply freaking out I use HungGar. :D

[rogue]

I agree, it took me months to get even the simple throws, locks and atemi of JJJ down to the point where they were ingrained enough to use.
Also when the excrement hits the fan, the last thing I'm worried about or should worry about is a civil suit, that's for later when after I've
taken appropriate action to protect me and my family.

Even though I know that most schools are a business, even the very good ones which CDT could be, I'm still turned off by the talk about it being a profit center. But that's just me.

guohuen,
Sounds like a great system for restraining someone.
Could you share some of the headbutt and footstopm avoidance techniques with us?

[Ray Pina]

Do WHATEVER you have to do ... and then get out of there as discretly as possible.

[rovere]

I've had a lot of experience training security personnel to handle psychiatric patients and other emotionally disturbed persons (including persons on and off certain drugs and medication). I also do a lot of expert witness work relating to physical intervention; forcible eviction; etc.

IMO Anyone who says they can teach you how to handle all of these situations in two days doesn't really understand the reality of the situations or the mental/physical capacity of the persons they are dealing with. (4 days to be an instructor is also another problem.)

I was involved in a case where the TRAINER was held responsible for teaching inefficient and dangerous techniques that resulted in a manslaughter charge for the officer who employed what he was taught. So there is also a liability factor incvolving the person who supplies the 'most court defensible program'.

I looked at the sight posted (CDT) and noticed that the police restraint shown in one of the photos is not the most efficient technique for reducing liability. There are however easy ways of modifying that techniques that both reduces liability; likelihood of residual damage and increase the safety of both the officer and the client.

Talking about liability is one (and an important) thing. Really knowing how to reduce it while still maintaining officer safety is another. Currently there is a big gap between the two.

[rogue]

thanks guohuen, that technique sounds familiar.

Rovere,
How's that article coming for KFM? Looking forward to it.

So far it sounds like we're all in agreement that you can't teach much in 16 hours.

[rovere]

rogue: Which article?

I just had one in IKF's "America Strike Back" and an upcoming one on security liability (How's that for timely) in the related mag.

Also had several articles published in some business journals which I plan to post on our web page in the next few weeks.

The xingyi article is almost complete. It's funny how making a living sometimes interferes with the more important things in life.

Thanks for asking.

[Black Jack]

Rovere,

I just wanted to point out that IMHO your article in IKF's "America Strikes Back" was its only saving grace, without that article it would of been a wasted $6.00.

Cheers

[C. Martin]

The Shoulder Pin Restraint, the technique referenced earlier in the post, as it is called by P.P.C.T. is a good hold, when you can get it. We refer to it as a shoulder bar restraint, to avoid copy right infringements.

I completely forgot about the picture of the officer holding down the suspect with his thumb in the mandibular angle, and his weapon pointed elsewhere. What a crock! First of all, let's assume that the officer is forced to open fire, you think the bottom guy is going to lay still while he shoots at one of his buds? Then what do we have, if the officer has to shoot the guy on the ground too? A fatal flaw in tactics.

Now let's say the guy on the ground is cooperative, but a little figity from the discomfort. Suspect number two, with the gun pointed at him is not being hostile. Suspect nubmer one, on the ground, decides enough is enough and starts to resist. The officer reacts to the resistance with more pressure, his para-sympathetic nevous system causes the other hand to contract at the same time, and boom! Unjustifiable discharge of his duty weapon, or a murder!

Does this guy have any actual law enforcment experience? Semantics and complex "pain compliance" techniques are for the lawyers, not the warriors. Leave that sh#t where it belongs, on the internet, not out here where someone might try it and get stuffed.

[Mutant]

Whats even worse than the 16 hr certification is that with 2 additional days of training you will actually be certified for as a 'Master' for TEACHING the 16 hr program to others.

"LEVEL II - MASTER INSTRUCTOR CERTIFICATION COURSE

Course Description: Licenses the instructor to Teach and Certify personnel in Level I Only.
(4 Day Course - Approximately 32 Hour Course) "

The courses seem like a money-maker with little chance of the students getting much skill out of it. Yeah, sounds like a bunch of B.S. to me too. :rolleyes: