When is tan sao not a tan sao?

[IronFist]

Take a tan sao, like at the completion of the one in the beginning of SLT. I've read the elbow should be about 1 and a half fists' distance from the body (if I'm wrong please correct me). So, you have a tan sao.

Now, pretend someone (no MA training) was fighting you and they threw one of those punches where the fist gets pulled back to behind the ear and then thrusted downwards (kind of) towards your face. Now, it's not a hay-bailer, it's a very straight punch, but it starts from behind the ear and it's trajectory is 10-20 degrees below horizontal.

So, you've got your SLT tan sao. Obviously it's totally going to miss intercepting his punch where it is, so you need to raise it up a bit. Now, the elbow deviates from it's 1.5 fists-from-the-body location. The position of the arm (i mean the angle of the arm, hand, and finger joints) is still the same, but it's not in it's "tan sao" place. Is it still a tan sao?

And finally, would there be a better way to deal with this type of punch? I was messing around with this kid on my floor last night who gets in fights a lot but doesn't have any training, and he threw a punch like this at me. I blocked it by lifting up a tan sao... hence my question above. Would a bong sao work here? I couldn't apply it right because of the downward angle of the punch (ie my forearm has to intercept his at a level HIGHER than his fist cuz the punch is coming down).

Alright that's enough questions for one thread.

Thanks,

IronFist

[reneritchie]

IMHO you don't do a Tan Sao and then hope a punch comes in just right for it to Tan (Disperse). There are no preconceptions or poses. Do your SN/LT and get to know your measures, paths, and power. Then, when something is incoming, join with it (Dap or Jip) and it will tell you what Sao/hand you will best overcome it (maybe Tan, maybe Fook, maybe Bong, maybe something else).

There won't be a set answer. It will always vary depending on initial conditions (the angle of your body and theirs, the initial position of your arms relative to the attack, your relative body sizes, the relative distance between both of you, etc.) So maybe your hand will touch and you'll flow into Tan, or maybe there'll be more lateral power in his punch and you'll slough it off with Bong, or maybe you'll touch and fing him empty and just punch right through (probably the best dap/jip ;) )

And as for the 1-1/2 fists, this is the ideal (IMHO) but there's a small range around that you can play with using small adjustments in a live situation to save yourself time. Once you find the ideal position (where it's aligned in a structurally sound manner - not too bent so it will collapse, not so extended it offers no deflection, no so flared it opens your center, not so restrained it becomes a lever against you, etc.), do it 1000s of times to make it reflex, it should do its job and fight for you 8)

Rgds,

RR

[TjD]

if your talking about the tan sau that looks like a tan sau
or the tan sau that feels like a tan sau :)


peace
travis

[IronFist]

No offence to anyone, but why is it so hard to get a straight up answer from a WC guy? :D Is part of the training how to give cryptic answers to outsiders?

I'm confused.

IronFist

PS. Seriously, I'm not trying to **** off anyone right now... but for example when I'm asked questions on the training forum I try to give straight forward answers because I assume that's what people prefer.

[kungfu cowboy]

No offence to anyone, but why is it so hard to get a straight up answer from a WC guy? Is part of the training how to give cryptic answers to outsiders?

I am sorry, but that information is only available on a need to know basis.

[IronFist]

Dàmn! :p

IronFist

[OdderMensch]

but as was said you dont say "if strike x come i'll stop it with block y" WC just doesn't work that way. but raiseing a tan sau CAN give you "tok sau" a very useful movement.

[JasBourne]

IronFist, its hard to get straight answers out of wingchunners because this is such a principle-based style. There is no "if this then that" truths that we can relay via a forum. It's why you can't just learn WC from a video or a book. You can learn much, true, but you will not achieve mastery.

How do we effectively explain verbally the principle of dispersion or deflection here? You have to do it, feel it, have someone who knows it *try* to explain it to you, and then you do it over and over and over again in drills and freesparring until you 'get it' enough to try to actually use it in fight training.

The kid pushes a downward punch at you. You effectively deflected it by lifting your tan sao arm. Is this a good tan sao? Sure. Would bong sao have worked? Maybe - what did you want to do? The bong is a transition movement to get you to where you want to be. Etc, etc.

There is no "if this then that" in WC - you *must* discard that notion. :)

----------

woops. what oddermensch said.

:D

[Peter Aarts]

Just try, when you react on time with a straight forward punch to his face.
When you´re late, your punch would be puched in a low bong sao.

[OdderMensch]

Peter Aarts has the right idea. You want a strait answer? kick the knee.


How do we effectively explain verbally the principle of dispersion or deflection here? You have to do it, feel it, have someone who knows it *try* to explain it to you, and then you do it over and over and over again in drills and freesparring until you 'get it' enough to try to actually use it in fight training.

exactly.

[CanadianBadAss]

"The position of the arm (i mean the angle of the arm, hand, and finger joints) is still the same, but it's not in it's "tan sao" place. Is it still a tan sao? "

Don't be controlled by the form.

[vingtsunstudent]

tan sau
extend from centre with elbow directing the movement, try having no pressure in the wrist & if you can't get your elbow on centre don't cover it with your wrist as you will now be having your pressure moving sideways rather than foward.
to exercute the tan aim it towards there appex of force(this will vary, especially if it straighter rather than a sucker type punch, but basically you will find it is around their elbow joint- practice & FEEL on a willing partner, going very slowly at first is the only way you will learn to understand this)
for practice get someone standing straight on to you at first(have
them face you squarely & just try slap you on the top of the shoulders-don't let them turn or anything, just start out with you both square & stationary ) & then as you feel you are getting the idea get them to turn more into it & have them start to vary the punch(ie straighter to a roundhouse).practice this from the basic stance without moving or changinging your facing for quite some time & again just have them standing there without movement as well.
don't rush the basics
footwork & facing is something altogether different again & this is where you'll have the most trying to learn but again basically you will learn to either face or move to there appex of force, being it slightly with only the upper body or more so with the waist.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING is the punch(simultaneously), quite often i found with dills on the street there movement are so exaggerated that your punch can often beat the tan(but it is good to have it there as a back up anyways;))

as JasBourne said this really is so hard to explain & i hope you can sort of get what i am saying.
good luck ironfist
vts

[IronFist]

Thanks :)

I did a technique (I'm sure it has a specific name) where you do a tan sao with (in this case) your left hand while punching with your right hand, and turn at the waist and feet to the left for torque/reach/whatever. I was just asking because my tan sao was pretty high, like, upper arm parallel to the ground high, so I wondered if it was still a tan sao :)

IronFist

[mun hung]

There are a few different tan sau's in the SNT. They all have different energies and purposes. The one you are using in "tan da" (tan punch) with the turning of the horse sounds like the second one. IMO - not the best solution for the type of punch you've described.

[JasBourne]

Tan da drill is a useful basic drill, but again, it is not a "fight technique" per se. Practicing tan da teaches you the coordination and "split mind" necessary to use one hand for dispersion while simultaneously striking, and to maximize reach and "whipping force" through incorporating rooting and proper body torque.

Your tan sao can just as easily be a fuk or bong as a tan, the strike can just as easily be a palm or finger jab as a punch, you can just as easily be turning on the balls of your feet or on the heels (actually two completely different body alignment principles), you could actually be moving forwards or backwards, the deflection/strike could be high, low, right, left, a combination thereof, etc etc etc.

And here's the serious kink in the whole thing: you must learn how not to commit to the movement. That is, once you understand how to use this tool, you have to learn how not to use it. If your deflection is not effective, or the line for your strike is not clear, you must immediatly transform your energy and regain the line. A "woops, that aint gonna happen, I'll go here instead" split-second change mindset. And sorry, there is no way to explain that one, you just gotta do it over and over and over 'till you get it.

Wing chun ROCKS. :D

[IronFist]

Originally posted by mun hung
"tan da" ... IMO - not the best solution for the type of punch you've described.

What would be better?

IronFist

[S.Teebas]

Iron fist,

Tan sau is just a name. Actually it is quite similar to the name bong sau and fook sau too!

What actually IS a tan sau, and how it fits into WC's arsenal, and how to use it... these are the questions you need to know the ansewers to. Then you will realise you can't say: if guy A throws punch B do TECHNIQUE C!!

Fighting changes every millionth of a second, no 2 punches are the same, no 2 defences are ever 2 the same. If i stand in front of you and throw 100 straight punches at you (trying to make them the same) it is unlikely any of them will be Exactly the same, see what im saying....??? You need to train for un-predictability. You need the ability to change with your environment....

Practice your SLT and dont worry about this yet.

[mun hung]

There are many solutions. I would only be able to list my own preferences, as you would need time to find and develop your own through dilligent practice. No substitute for that. SNT is definitely a good place to start.

[IronFist]

So if you asked your sifu "Sifu, what is the best way (or a way) to deal with X attack?" he would say "go develop your own method?"

Why have a sifu at all then?

IronFist

[Sihing73]

Hi Ironfist,

While I can appreciate your frustration with some answers it is very hard to get some things across in this medium.

The "techniques" one uses to deal with various attacks are on a very basic rudimentary level. While you can train to use a Taun or whatever to deal with this type of attack, or to deal with attacks to a certain area, becoming locked into this type of thinking will inhibit your growth. First of all it is the energy which the opponent gives you which dictates the proper response. If you threw a punch at me,I may use a different response based on the energy you give me. This means that each and every time you throw the "same" punch the actual energy you give to me may be slightly different. Thus, my response each and every time could be something totally different.

At the basic level one may indeed respond with a certain technique. This is necessary to learn and to begin to develope the proper responses. For example if you throw a low punch to my stomach area it is doubtful that I would want to use a Taun to defend. I may be better off using a Gaun or Jum. However, with a firm grasp of the concepts behind the Taun, I could, conceiveably, respond with my hands low at my side and use a Taun Sau which is lifting up, not a Tok Sau as the energy would be different, to defend. I may not advocate doing this and it may not be the best example to use. However, I am using it to illustrate that the "concept" of Taun can be used outside of the "technique" of Taun.

The reason that you need a Sifu is because you need to internalize the concepts rather than the structure of the technique. You need to feel the different nuances of energy and learn how to use such energy while taking advantage of the energy which both you and your opponent have. Just mimicking the movements will only result in a "karate like" approach which a skilled Wing Chun person would usually destroy in a confrontation. Without getting into too much more the third form actually shows one how to "break the rules" of Wing Chun and apply Wing Chun concepts and techniques outside of some of the "accepted" means. Sometimes rules are made to be bent and in some cases they need to be broken :) The key is to make the system your own and make it fit you and your needs. Get rid of the blinders and set responses.

Hope that didn't muddy the waters further.

Peace,

Dave

[mun hung]

When the h3ll did I say all of that???

Problem is - you clearly did'nt understand a word I said. Let's try it again.

First, you must learn the hand forms, and then all of their different applications. Hopefully then, thru hard work and dilligent training you'll develop your own preferences for using them.

An instructor can always teach you a certain approach to handle an attack, but it's really up to the practitioner to make it his own.

My preference to that punch would probably be pak da.

[vt108]

"My preference to that punch would probably be pak da."

Really? I find pak da to dangerous for me. I would use it only in a situation when I was to late for anything else and had to move my head to the side to not get hit. In pak da it is to easy to miss the punching hand in that situation.

Just my opinion.

[mun hung]

Exactly.

We all have our preferences in what we like using. I happen to feel very safe with pak da - but then again, I could be using it quite differently from you.

[Roy D. Anthony]

When is tan sao not a tan sao?..when it is called a Beggars Hand..LOL
But in all Seriousnous....it's when it is a Sae Sao!!!
Hope thid helps!!!

[Sabu]

When it is bong sau, lap sau, kwan sau, jit sau, gan da, fuk sau, wu sau, biu sau...

But seriously dudes.... first we must define when is it a tan sau..

[Sharky]

i know this discussion is about tan sau, but if they c0cked back their fists you should have already smacked them like 6 times.

People get too hung up with chasing other peoples hands/parrying (there is no blocking in wc). Remember that you are attacking them.

You should always be the first to strike. Blocks just really don't work that often on the street.

Learn to hit first and hit hard.

PS - i'm not saying don't learn to dicipate (sp?) attacks! Just remember wc is an aggressive ATTACKING style. Attack ferchrissakes!