wingtsun demo clip

[ATENG]

any of you guys still have the link to that 4 minute wingtsun demo clip by sifu victor guiterrez? i seem to be having trouble using the search function to locate the old thread. thanks in advance.

[fmann]

http://people.zeelandnet.nl/ejkoch/movies/WT2.mpg

[JasBourne]

Hey, they're using the "Apotheosis" version of "O Fortuna" as the soundtrack - I've been trying to find a copy of that track for years, anyone know where I can get it? (and yes I've tried all the p2p networks)

[Peter Aarts]

Also try
www.columbia.edu/cu/wingtsun/videos.html (http://www.columbia.edu/ca/wingtsun/videos.html)

[Botha]

WOW,

That guy Gutierrez is a real fighting machine!

[Peter Aarts]

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/wingtsun/videos.html

[ATENG]

thanks guys

[cha kuen]

Hey,

What do you guys think of that clip?
It seems very sloppy to me. They lose all their structure in those clips.

You don't have to learn wc to fight lilke that. 5 months of thai boxing can beat those guys.../..

[Sec]

cha kuen please open your eyes, as far as looking "sloppy" goes who says fighting is meant to look good? I wish I could defend myself as well as those guys do!

[fmann]

These clips are to show the brutal and effective side of WT. Most people think that Muay Thai is "brutal" and consider Kung fu to be more "refined" or "elegant." These clips just go to show that a kung fu style can indeed be bone-crunching like MT in the realm of full-contact self-defense.

So by making you compare it to thai boxing, the clip has succeeded in its purpose.

[cha kuen]

when the structure is messed up, you cannot get power from the ground.

Everyone knows power from the ground from a question/ answer viewpoint but few, very few know it personally.

Brutal side, hahaha

[vingtsunstudent]

at first i thought 'no no don't say anything'
but i have to agree with cha kuen
realistic fighting my bum.
i was most impressed how nobody fought back & as to comparing it to muay thai, well that ain't difficult seeing as though it looks more like that than it does wing chun.
the only thing i will give you is that real fighting is never pretty but as for that supposing to be wing chun it is pretty ugly.

botha
i haven't heard you respond since telling you where to look for my teacher......google- sifu+barry+lee
he actually does seminars in holland i have since found out, so let us see if you go & see him.
then we'll see how much you want to use the word machine.

vts

[Nichiren]

Well, if you think Victor is bad at WC I don't know what to say.

I have only heard from guys that have chisao:d with Victor and he was amazing. The thing with Victor is that he is one of the few WC guys that actually can do more than just shot his mouth of; he can actually fight!

Please pull your head out of your a$$ for once and recognize true skill instead of coming with the old "you can train muy thai 3 weeks and beat this guy" crap.

Sorry if I got a little carried away on this one... ;)

[Alpha Dog]

and he loves to throw the elbow

[cha kuen]

Yes he can fight on the street as a street fighter.

BUt he sure isn't efficient or anything that good kung fu guys are known for.

If you " don't know what to say" I surely do. Find another teacher and open your eyes.

That guy is tense and stiff like a statue, rigid, not flexible.

The truth shall set you free.

[red5angel]

I am not sure what the problem is with his fighting, or his Wing chun. They are obviously deoms, hence the lack of opponent fighting back. Other then that, it looks pretty good, and effective too. He may be limited on his arsenal, or what e chooses to use, but if works. There are rumors that one who knows wing chun well, back in the HK rooftop days used only a few moves.

[vingtsunstudent]

PLEASE READ DISCLAIMER BEFORE MOVING AHEAD.

''it looks pretty good, and effective too''

''They are obviously deoms, hence the lack of opponent fighting back''

red5angel
how can something that is odviously a demo without people fighting back look good & effctive too.
again, let alone at the start they use the word REALISTIC.
realistic my bum.
call it jeet kun do or whatever you like but that is not wing chun.
vts

[AdrianUK]

Anyone got a link to some Ving Tsun demo clips ? I would like to see the difference, so far all the demo clips I have seen looked a little sloppy as vts would say

[cha kuen]

Check out the clips at

www.wingchun.hk.com

click on footage.

Those clips are much better than that "street fighter" guy

I'm not saying those clips are the best of the best, but i'd put them ahead of the crazy elbow man.

[Peter Aarts]

I´ve found some great realistic vingtsun demo´s

vingtsun.org/ (http://vingtsun.org/)

Have fun...

[Nichiren]

cha kuen: Yeah, those were nice training clips.
Peter Aarts: Those were cool.

I wonder if someone has noticed a difference between lineages when it comes to the more advanced levels. I have practiced WT (I practice another lineage now) and WT looks like any other WC/VT/WT when training, i.e. like the clips that cha kuen posted, but totaly different when it comes to hardcore sparring. There are lots of elbows, chainpunches, knees, sweeps etc at the higher levels of sparring.

Is it WT that is different?

I ain't looking for a right or wrong but differences of executing WC at the higher levels. I do not want to get into a brain-dead "VT is better then WT" discussion like the ones they have at the forum at http://www.vingtsun.com.hk/forum/.

PS. Victor is a WT SiFu. DS.

Cheers....

[cha kuen]

Higher level wing chun is a mind game.

All about the Yi, leem lik, Yi leem, mind force ....hence the mind game between two people.

[red5angel]

Well the only difference I see is two different environments. The first video, the guy is just simulating street combat. It looks good to me, his form is good. he does some things that are normally ignored in most schools I see, ground fighting being one of them. The second, the guys are doing Chi sau in a more controlled environment. there are frequent pauses in play. I dont see either way as wrong, and in either case form and technique seemed to be pretty good.
There seems to be a lot of professional jealousy or something going on in the martial arts world, in this case Wing chun speciifically. Other then the clips that cha kuen put on this string, I havent heard one nice thing from this forum on anyone who has a demo on the internet. Its always, he could do this better, or do that better, or his form or structure sucks. He uses too many of those or whatever. Whats the deal? Personally I think I would clean off my own porch before criticing these guys who have the guts to let it all hang out. I have never seen, perfect technique or structure. I have seen really good structure, really good technique, but I have never seen perfect. I fyou guys have clips or pictures of these I would like to see them though.

[cha kuen]

Good kung fu using the intent, the YI , the mind force cannot be seen with the eye.

It has to be felt first hand. So arguing with words is pointless.

No one can get a point over anyone else becaues it's just words.

THis is not a debate on legalizing marijuana. This is kung fu, where you need to touch hands to prove your case. (in a safe manner of course. )

[red5angel]

.

[ATENG]

Originally posted by cha kuen

It has to be felt first hand. So arguing with words is pointless.



i was going to post a response to all the criticisms of the WT clips (and hopefully those were just directed at the clips, and not WT as a martial art), but i think chakuen said it for me. peace.

[wtjoe]

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone

[red5angel]

I totally agree with you guys on he who cast the first stone. Thats why I dont understand why it is so common, especially when someone post pictures or video clips! I just think it is more insulting to these guys that people dare make a statement on thier ability without knowing and testing them themselves!
Its one thing to touch hands with someone and make a statement about thier ability, its another to get a small example and then judge them with the finality that is often found on this forum.

[Peter Aarts]

Another nice clip at
http://www.wingtjun.nl

Cheers...:)

[vingtsunstudent]

peter peter pumpkin eater
why am i not surprised that i haven't heard you mentioning that you have e-mailed or visited my sifu.
i see you've added 'the machine' to your tittle.
until you visit him & earn that tittle you are no more than a fool & a pretender to the crown.
grow up you loser.
besides that, that guys footwort was appalling & the over dramatisation(is that even a word- it is now) with the knives & his face was quite funny as well.
you've shown, to me at least, that you know very little & that you are just an arrogant fool, show some balls - go visit him, then you may earn some of that respect that you desperately seek.
vts

[Nichiren]

Vingtsunpractitioner:
Ok. I'll bite on your reply to Peter Aarts...

I think you have a serious ego problem. Maybe you should get some professional help and return when you get more respect for other people. This reply isn't intended to diss you but I am seriously concerned about your mental health.

I hope you'll get better...

/Cheers

[dezhen2001]

liked the use of the slow motion and editing in the clip. made it look kinda funky :)

david

[vingtsunstudent]

hey nichiren
if you decided to check up on old pete boy you understand my piont of view.
as to my ego, it's f'n huge, know where near as small as your brain to pass judgement without checkin' my reasons first & definetely no where as big as your mouth, again for not checkin' my reasons but feeling the need to comment on something that is no concern of yours.
if you wish to look down on me fine but check the facts first.
vts
ps i went looking for the thread where he started all with a lot of smart a$$ comments about my sifu but it seem everything he said was deleted

[Gandolf269]

VingTsunStudent;

Please don't turn this forum into a forum like the one your orginization presents (http://www.vingtsun.com.hk/forum). If you want to revert to name calling and putting people down, do it there. I, for one, come to this forum to view and learn (and sometimes post) ideas and theories about wing chun techniques and applications from other wing chun schools/styles other than my own. Whether I agree with them or not, it is interesting and refreshing to see other view points.

I'm sure I'll probably get slagged for this post by you and your friends. So be it.

[Peter Aarts]

Mr Coleman,

I´m glad I´ve read your disclaimer first: It makes some things clear. As for the term "Machine", if you think you´ve got the copyright, I´m willing to change my title. No hard feelings.

Concerning your arranged deathmatch between your Sifu and Botha, you should turn to the latter one. He knows all the details. Do not blame me for things going not the way you want them to be.

I respect your well argumented thoughts about the clip. Who am I to disagree with you.

I´m going to look for some more Wing Chun clips and ask for your professional opinion, you like that???

I´m sure I´ll hear from you,

Greetings;)

Peter.

[Botha]

Well, pathetic beginner. I tried for the last two weeks to make an appointment with "your" Sifu. First of all, he doesn't even know who you are. Second, he was not keen about meeting me for some chisao. I'm not saying he is afraid.
BTW Who gave you permission to speak for "your" sifu. Don't think it is very respectfull of you to do so. If, and I say if you are his student, did he ask you to make arrangements for "challenge matches"? Don't think so.


Botha

[Gandolf269]

cha kuen and ateng;

Great clips!!! Both sifu's showed some great stuff. Thanks to you both.

Aarts;

Not trying to diss you or your clips, but I don't know the weapons forms yet so I don't feel I should comment other than to say the video was quality stuff and enjoyable.

[vingtsunstudent]

firstly let me start by appologising to nichiren as this part of my last post was a bit rough on him for his piont of view.
'know where near as small as your brain to pass judgement without checkin' my reasons first & definetely no where as big as your mouth, again for not checkin' my reasons but feeling the need to comment on something that is no concern of yours. '
i do understand but as i said all the things he has had to say about 'not just my sifu'(for some reason botha seems to like 'your' sifu) were deleted for his rude behavior. I DID NOT START THIS.
(ps nichiren i am currently under the supervision of the best mental doctors money can buy;))
there/his first posts here - tell us the story again please, Peter Aarts & botha, so one of you was in internet cafe & ask about teachers in the netherlands & the other just happened to be in the same cafe(the same ip as sihing pionted out when this troll first appeared) & posted a reply 2 minutes later. truely believable. :rolleyes:

Gandolf269, if you were to go to the site you have mentioned have a look & see if you can find me there trolling, then look for peter & have a look at some of the truely knowledgable posts he has made.(also check for all his allias eg dik vrij)
i have been on this form, it seems, a bit longer than you & yes i have argued with some but generally end up having a laugh with them as well(hi empty cup, whippy, sunkuen & all my other friends & ardent admirers)
i'm sorry if you feel me posting my truthful opinion about the footwork being terrible was in some way negative but i can't see why you should give someone a wrap when it sucked. this in know way means he may not be good but his footwork WAS terrible.(notice - i did not put down the man, only his footwork)
i also wonder how something that you may not or don't agree with might be seen as refreshing.

Peter Aarts & botha
firstly, if you took the time to read any other threads on here you would clearly have seen me say i speak for myself not my teacher. i have clearly stated this many times.
secondly, i am very much doubting that you have been in contact with him due to you saying he doesn't know me.
i have been with the school 12 years & am one of the senior student in my home town of newcastle, i have stayed at barry's house whilst attending seminars by wong shun leung & have had more than one private lesson under him.
lastly, i can see how some might see what i have said as a challenge but in reality pete, you know that the first time you bad mouthed my teacher all i did was tell you that he was in germany & you might want to go check out his gung fu before you start bad mouthing him. you take that as a challenge- grow up.
i do like however that it has turned into a challenge/death match.

and i find it funny how immature i am.

to the rest who have had to endure this i am sorry.
vts

[Nichiren]

Vingtsunstudent:
No hard feelings... :)

/cheers

[vingtsunstudent]

none from me either.
it is funny to me that without even having a video to view these trolls passed comment on my teacher, let alone the fact they felt the need to tell us how poor wong shun leaung's forms were.
there response is to post them clips & then get upset when someone makes a harsh comment on them, i don't know & maybe i'm way off but is more the fact that they were of a wing tsun practitioner & they thought i was putting down there whole system.
i call a spade a spade & for that i appologise.
to my deathmatch losers, why don't you post a copy of your
e-mail to barry here so i & others can see what way you approached him. my guess is you haven't but if you did i could also summise he probably ignored you & wrote you off for the troll you are.
as for things goin' my way............ i will tell you this if i had the time & money i would come over & see you personally!
i have never & will never need anybody to fight for me!
just be careful what you wish for boys.
vts

[Gandolf269]

VingTsunStudent

I was not suggesting that you did post on the VTAA forum, I was just saying that if we resort to name calling (i.e. "you are just an arrogant fool, show some balls " and "know where near as small as your brain") that is the forum to do that in, not this one please. :cool: I don't have a problem with you posting your opinion, as long as there is a point to be made. And your opinion on the footwork is a valid one, but I'm not sure which clip you are referring to???

If it is Gutierrez - Keep in mind that WT trains to keep all the weight on the back leg (0/100). Which for the most part I think he does. There are reasons for this type of stance, just as you have reasons for your stance. I would be willing to bet they both have their strong and weak points. Different strokes for different folks, I think it really comes down to whether, or not, you can make what you have learned work for you and therefore effective. But this is not the thread to hash this topic out.

If you were referring to the footwork of Iadarola, I can't really see enough of his footwork in the forms I know, so I can't give my opinion. As I said before I don't know the weapons forms.

Refreshing?: This is a prime example of what I mean. Your points (or opinions) made me look closer at the videos and look for the things you were mentioning that you felt were wrong. Whether I agree with you or not, doesn't matter. You made me think about and examine the video's more closely. Very refreshing. :D

Peace and thanks for your opinions.
David

P.S. If the guys you mentioned did make personal attacks on your Sifu, I'll stand by WHAT you said any day of the week, just not WHERE you said it. :D :D

[benny]

I find this topic quite amusing. There is no way you emailed Barry if he said he dosent know VTS. i was at seminars with both of them. its alot easier to lie if you actually check if they knew each other or not.

:rolleyes:

[Peter Aarts]

Don´t turn the facts.
I never had comments on your Sifu personally. Just on the name you are calling him.
Concerning your form. You said you did it slobby. Not my words. As I made some comments, it was just about the things you said.
Do not bring up your whole system, as I think your not representing the WSL-system here on the forum.

You are the one that´s getting personally from time to time. Although it isn´t me who´s getting upset, no mather what stupid and insulting things you say.
About the clips. As I said before, if you feel the need to criticize them, be my guest.
If you cant´t stand people having different ideas, stay of the forum.

ps. I wish you´d stand just in front of me...
(But as you said, wishfull thinking)
pps. Never say never...

[S.Teebas]

Peter Aarts...

I wouldn't doubt the skill of someone nicknamed 'The Machine" (theres probably a reason he's called that).... doesnt seem too smart!:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[vingtsunstudent]

whatever pete:o
if you made comments that weren't personal or insulting then how do explain the fact that all your posts were deleted.
i have nothing more to say on this as you are odviously a liar & 'the king of chi saoing trolls':(
i would still like to see some copies of those e-mails you sent him though.
vts

[sticky fingers]

search for 'Fortuna remix' or 'fortuna Techno' on the P2P networks. I just checked it on Morpheus and it's there.

[Sihing73]

Hi Guys,

I appoligize for taking so long to get to this. Since my home PC is down I need to rely on my work laptop.

Anyhow, it is obvious that this post has degenerated into something of little value. A minority of people are resorting to name calling and slights which have little, if anything, to do with the original subject. Rather than see this continue I am closing this topic.

As always anyone wishing to discuss this directly is free to contact me at:

Sihing73@juno.com

Peace,

Dave