Death Touch?

[RAF]

'Innocent' Blow to the Chest Can Be Fatal
Tue Mar 5, 5:35 PM ET
By Amy Norton

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Even a seemingly minor strike to the chest from a ball or other source can prove fatal under certain conditions. And those most at risk seem to be children in sports like baseball and hockey, US researchers report.


They argue that better protective equipment in certain youth sports might reduce the risk of sudden death from blows to the chest.

Such incidents are uncommon, as they require a blow directly over the heart during a particular point in the heart's rhythmic cycle. But they may be more common than has been recognized, the new study's lead author told Reuters Health.

Dr. Barry J. Maron, of the Minneapolis Heart Institute Foundation in Minnesota, and his colleagues have collected data on 128 US cases in which a blunt strike to the chest, known as commotio cordis, triggered cardiac arrest.

Of these, 62% occurred at organized sporting events, mostly among children and teens. The rest occurred in a range of settings, from backyard play to child abuse and fights between adults. Overall, 84% of the incidents were fatal, according to findings published in the March 6th issue of The Journal of the American Medical Association.

Same principle as dian xue?:eek:

[red_fists]

Hi RAF.


Not sure if it qualifies as "dian xue", as the points are rather smalller than the Ball.

But, yes, if it hits right and correctly on the spot it might be.

But, I rather see it more akin to a VERY strong palmstrike, that is designed to cause the heart to skip a beat or two.

But than that is just my poor Opinion.

[Sam Wiley]

Originally posted by RAF
Same principle as dian xue?:eek:

Yes, it is. In fact, one of the points on the chest, Conception Vessel 14, is a forbidden point in acupuncture because of it's dramatic effect on the heart, which is the organ it is located directly over. A hard strike to this point can kill.

Several other points on the chest and ribs are noted for their dramatic effects on other organs, like the liver, gall bladder, etc.

Accidental strikes to these points, particularly CV14, have been known to kill, and experiments done on small animals (poor things) show that this point affects the heart in dramatic ways.

One theory behind heart-stopping strikes and their setup points is that the setup points force the heart to either change to or remain in a certain state (a vulnerable one I guess) for the split second needed to strike the point. I don't completely understand the theory, but I think of it like getting hit so hard your breath is taken and you have trouble inhaling. I guess the setup puts the heart in a yin (?) state, empty of blood, and the concussion from the strike stops it temporarily from beating, probably driving the remaining blood out. The heart simply cannot prime itself anymore. So the body falls to the ground in an effort to minimize the amount of pull needed to draw blood and prime the old pump. It reminds me of when your pool pump is far away and at a substantially higher level than the water in your pool. Initial priming of the pump is quite difficult and time consuming if things aren't done perfectly.

Anyway, one myth about point striking that I hear over and over again is that the points are small and you have to be really accurate, which is probably the basis for Red_Fist's comment. However, I have gotten results with strikes with my forearm before (an excellent weapon, by the way), and it's impossible to be very accurate with a broad surface (it was a rising strike into Stomach 5). For most points, you do not have to be pin point accurate. It's good to have that accuracy, but it's not always necessary. On the other hand, there are some points that are accessible with the same methods and pretty much use the same methods of striking, albeit with more precise weapons like the tips of the fingers or one knuckle, as those that do not require that much accuracy. But those are only trained in after some skill in striking points in general is learned and a bit of accuracy is attained.

[Nexus]

I've felt the death touch before, it's definetely the real deal.

- Nexus

[shaolinboxer]

Heart shots can kill. That is a scary fact.

[Ray Pina]

Any good books on this topic. I read the article in IKF this month. Is that book worthwhile, any suggestions?. I need more reserach. The topic intrests me of coarse, but I have concerns regarding the ease of such precise selction of a target on a skilled, moving fighter.

This is not to be negative. I know there are great things out there and pretty much the sky is the limit on what can be done with the human body/mind.


For now my focus is simply on acquiring the best fighting technology. But like I said, I woud like to research this.

[Sam Wiley]

Erle Montaigue's Encyclopedia of Dim-Mak is a great reference for the locations and effects of points, covering every point on the body, even those not usable in fighting. He also talks a little and gives examples of set up and strike combinations.

I haven't seen every book out there as far as fighting with Dim-Mak goes, but Erle's Dim-Mak: Death-Point Striking is light years ahead of the others I have seen. This is because most deal with either picking a point and trying to hit it (very basic stuff there) or simply applying point knowledge to techniques (also a very basic approach). Erle, however, also dealt with training methods from his martial arts background that provide reflexive responses to attacks, relating this to point striking. Doing things this way first provides practitioners with reflexive counters to attacks that are effective anyway, then couples these training methods with knowledge of anatomy and point striking, enhancing the fighting ability with Dim-Mak. Others just wanted to sell a book on point locations and effects, hardly ever touching on realistic fighting applications. Erle went with the realistic fighting applications. While I believe others also have begun leaning more toward the realistic side of things, he was the first I saw do it.

Well, anyway, precision is not always required, as I have said. Most points are affected with blunter weapons, and being slightly off on a point that is affected by striking in the general area anyway is not a great concern.

If you can fight, you do not need Dim-Mak. But if you can fight, it can help you become a better fighter. That's the reason the stuff is not generally taught to beginners, because they can't fight anyway.

[shaolinboxer]

An excellent way to study pressure points is to look at a massage manuals.

Pressure points for relaxation and pleasure are the same as pain, unconciousness, and death.

[Ray Pina]

I've seen that book adverstised, but for its price I coud buy a gun.

[Sam Wiley]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
I've seen that book adverstised, but for its price I coud buy a gun.

$85US plus taxes and shipping for both volumes? Where the Hell can you find a gun THAT cheap? My gun cost me $450US.

[Ray Pina]

I must have confused it with another book. The one I was thinking of was advertised in IKF for like $300 and change.

Also, didn't mean to sound rude. I was writing a post and my boss came in, wanted something, so I had to close up quickly.

I met a woman at a party last summer who teaches Chinese medicine at a school here on Long Island. We spoke, she said she studied karate for years and then got into Taiji. Said she fist got into it to learn the destructive (which was wierd because I did not get that vibe from her but perhaps because she was a woman I was just not good at sensing her lethality) but said she changed her focus to healing.

She talked about the 5 elements and how they can be combined through grabbing certain locations in combo with hitting others to set off a destructive reaction. Sounds intresting, , like any technique, I need proof of its affectiveness.

So, in the end, how do these folks know it is a "death" touch, and not just a "hurt a lot touch". Of coarse death can be caused, I believe any martial artists of a certain caliber should know how to take a person out, the body is fragile.

But to me, DEATH TOUCH seems to be another sort, death by a light touch in an unobvious location: touching the bridge, or other extremeties.

Curious as to peoples experience with this. What made you a believer?

[JasBourne]

"Where the Hell can you find a gun THAT cheap?"

12th street downtown Miami behind the 7-11, ask for 'Manuel". ;) :D

[Sam Wiley]

Supposedly, the points and their effects were worked out by Chang San-feng, who along with a couple of friends I guess, got permission to test out their martial skills on condemned prisoners. More than likely they bought them outright so they could kill them.

Many Dim-Mak points become sore if you press them hard, but you do not really feel sever pain with most of them when they are struck. The person just falls to the ground unconcious. Using pain as a deterrent is a bad idea, because a lot of people don't respond, don't care, or might be drugged up and not be able to feel it. However, if you use points that affect their bodies whether they want to resist or not, then that is good.

I reserve the term "death" point for those that can actually kill. Many of them cannot kill, though they might make one sick, weak, etc.

My own introduction to Dim-Mak came while practicing a seasonal qigong. I was practicing Hidden Hand Punch as a seasonal qigong, and did the punch as fa-jing. I did this three times on each side, actually striking my own forearms, which you are not supposed to do. I found out why about a half hour later. Striking Colon 10 upward with fa-jing causes extremely painful explosive diarrhea. I began paying close attention during partner training when I would accidentally strike my partner so I knew where I had struck and learn how to "fix" it. In every case, the effects of points I had struck matched the effect listed in my books, and the points recommended to reverse the effects did so.

[Water Dragon]

Heart Punch :D

[RAF]

Yes, Water Dragon. I don't have the sophistication that Sam has picked up, but in general, we train to strike areas such as that described in the article. We also have a pretty good idea where to thrust a sword to do the most damage. We learned a lot of the areas to strike in praying mantis but we never connect them to pathways of the meridians.

I suspect one could learn a lot more if they knew Chinese but we keep it pretty simple. My TCM sees it in a similar manner to Sam but he is a healer not a fighter.

Part of my purpose in posting the article is to show there is nothing mystical about learning where to strike and even kill. But as one of my buddies who is not a martial artist said, "Even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while!"

[Repulsive Monkey]

Chang Sang Feng did not originate the negative functions of these points, as Chinese Doctors were well aware prior to this of sensitivity with regards to even palpating certains points e.g. Stomach 9.
These points do require a great degree of accuracy, due to the fact that even Erle says that one needs 3 lifetimes to learn the whole Dian Xue art of spotting points.
Its full applications were traditionally well hidden and only disseminated to singular disciples of high calibre as the art itself is very dangerous in the wrong hands. This is why I partially do not condone Erle's stance on liberating such information in his books to the general public, because its true that even though to consciously execute this art it takes years of training it is possible for some one even with half the knowledge to "get lucky" and cause severe or termminal damage.
I sometimes wonder about Erles publication empire and who it is really meant to serve?
The public or himself!

[Sam Wiley]

Yeah, but that's to learn the whole, not master it. And the statement doesn't necessarily have anything to do with precision. If you count all of the internal arts as having definite and sophisticated methods of Dim-Mak, then there are the big 3, plus several lesser known internal arts, each with a different approach, and many of them with substyles with different approaches anyway. To completely master one art and its approach to point striking requires a great deal of time, and to master several in order to learn and master every approach to point striking would indeed require several lifetimes.

However, to become fairly proficient and accurate (as opposed to precise), does not require that much time. Years, yes, but not lifetimes.

In all likelihood, though I myself like to think he may have, Chang San-feng probably never existed. Therefore it doesn't matter what the different histories say. However, it IS interesting to note that a lot of people try to take what they learn from acupuncture manuals and apply it to the martial arts. While Dim-Mak and acupuncture use the same points, that's as far as the similarities go. Many things in Dim-Mak theory, such as directions of "energy flow" and strikes, are opposite to those in acupuncture theory. (I would assume that acupressure theory and Dim-Mak theory would be closer.)

Since many of the more dangerous points actually require fa-jing, something 99.9% of people are unlikely to have naturally IMO, there is little chance that some irresponsible or "evil" person might attain real skill without at least a bit of training. The simpler points will work if you hit them hard enough, and you can even get a few combos to work that way, but anyone can do that without learning about actual points, you just have to sit down with an anatomy book and look up vulnerable points. People "get lucky" and cause damage through dangerous points all the time, and some people pay attention to what happens when they hit certain points and get the same effect all the time, and eventually start "hunting" for a certain point to get that known effect.

Think about this: If people were passing this knowledge on in secret, or just letting out the more sensational bits as was the case a few years ago, without letting people know about the inherent dangers and without letting them in on the whole picture, would things be better or worse? Imagine a young man going to a seminar, learning to strike to a certain point to get a KO, but not being told about the after effects like possible kidney failure, urine in the blood, etc, and not being told how to repair the damage, which was never discussed in the first place. This young man, in fact, is told that this point is safe to strike, and does not realize that the instructor is leaving out information he heeds to know, or else the instructor has picked a participant who will play his game and pretend to be KO'd. Now, to continue our scenario, this young man goes home, and strikes a member of his family to show them that what he went to learn actually works and to show how good he is becoming at it with only a few hours training. This member of his family begins to feel rather ill a bit later on, and begins to pass blood in her urine. By the time they connect the strike with the bloody urine and get her to a hospital, she is dying of kidney failure.

This was a real situation. Had he been told the point was dangerous, he might not have tried it out when he got home to show off. Had he had the resources available to him before the seminar to question the instructor when he was told the point was not dangerous, he might not have stuck around to learn from such an irresponsible ass. Had the resources been available to him, he might have gone a completely different route and learned from an instructor who would show a little care for his students, and train him properly to strike these points, as well as train him in healing methods to repair damage he might do if it is reparable.

Erle and some others have made such resources available now, so that people know these things are dangerous, and so they can learn how to heal the damage, and so they know they are being lied to when people tell them striking these points is safe. It was a lesser of two evils scenario here; either give a little information to people so they went away with a powerful tool they didn't completely understand and yet thought they did, or else give everyone all the information so they knew the points were dangerous and would know they didn't know everything.

Traditionally, the points were given, as many have said, far into training, after the master has made sure his now-skilled student has the moral character not to abuse what he is being given. However, the points were also given along with "antidote" points, massage techniques, and other healing therapies so the student got both sides of the coin, healing and destructive. Balance was maintained that way.

In the end, yes, he makes money off of the books and tapes, though he isn't getting anywhere near rich off of them. But the knowledge is his, and he deserves to be compensated for it. If a master wants to keep teaching this stuff in secret, he is more than welcome to do so. Erle chose to publish it for the whole world to see, and you can't fault him for that. It was his, and he could've done anything he wanted to do with it. I can't fault a bass player who won't tell how he knows what he knows or teach his methods to others, but neither do I fault those who decide to publish their methods for the world to learn or imitate. It's the same kind of decision.

[batesy]

Sam Wiley
I read your post on colon 10 with interest, having heard similar stories from my teacher. I looked for Colon 10 in an acupressure manual and couldn't find it. Is it the same point as Large Intestine 10 near the elbow?
Cheers

[batesy]

Sam Wiley
I read your post on colon 10 with interest, having heard similar stories from my teacher. I looked for Colon 10 in an acupressure manual and couldn't find it. Is it the same point as Large Intestine 10 near the elbow?
Cheers

[Sam Wiley]

Yes, Large Intestine 10 is the same point, just with a slightly different name. The Chinese name of the point is Shousanli, meaning "arm's three measure" or something like that. It is pretty close to Lung 6, which is another point on the arm you can strike to disrupt your opponent's energy. It's possible to catch both of them if you use a palm strike.

These points are ones your hands will naturally gravitate toward after training in them for a while.

Just to give you a little extra here, Colon 12, just above the elbow, and Heart 3, at the same height on the inner part of the arm, are control points you can use. Grabbing them both together with the tips of your fingers, you can control a person's body. Both of them are in the hollows created by the shape of the elbow, so that if you grab a person's arm at those points and pull down toward the wrist your grip wil naturally sink into those points.

I love the points on the elbow. I love the fact that you ca control a person by pushing or pulling on the right parts of the elbow. These points, well, the elbow in general really, are one of the keys to getting behind people. By manipulating the elbow, or striking it in the right place, you can make the person spin around about 90 degrees and all you have to do is take a single step forward and you are completely behind them. Taiji's Willow Tree methods make great use of these points to get behind people to attack the back of their neck or their kidneys etc. One of the tricks is to step forward while doing it so that you are striking before they can retaliate against the attack.

[Ray Pina]

These points seem to be everywhere. So, when I get a case of the runs, could it be from having my bridge attacked and just not knowing it? Honestly curious.

[Sam Wiley]

Sure, I suppose it could. You might have a colon point that is more sensitive (for some reason) than most people's. I don't know if that's possible, but there ARE some people who have hypersensitive carotid sinuses (Stomach 9), who can turn their head suddenly and pass out from it, or who tie their necktie too tightly, look to one side, and pass out.

Or this coul mean that maybe you have some sort of imbalance concerning the colon, making it weaker and more sensitive or something. I can't really say too much on that point, as my knowledge of TCM isn't very deep.

Of course, it could just be where your training partner is exactly on target, in just the right direction, and with enough power to make it count. More than likely, that's what it is.

You can do Iron Body qigong to help protect those points. There are also some other, baser methods, like striking the forearms on those points to "deaden" them to strikes. Baguazhang is famous for this, with repetitive arm striking done during circle walking and direction changes, as well as repetitive striking during forms practice. Bagua also trains in moves during the forms where the forearms scrape together. If you begin practicing some sort of training methods like these, you will probably be able to take a strike on the arm while closing with your opponent without much damage. Besides this, you will also develop forearms perfect for striking with. As the arms are usually both our first line of defense and our first wave of attack, proper conditioning of them is important.

[Ray Pina]

I did a ton of arm banging in my hung gar days. They can pretty much take a beatig and need a heavy knuckle strike to produce bruising at this point. But it makles me think. I am agrresive with my bridging -- I have bad habbits -- and do take blows there occassionaly but am getting better.

Could always be that Taco Bell too. I don't eat meat, but those 7 Layer burritos are tempting when broke and ina rush.

Peace

[RAF]

An interesting post from the other forum.

http://martialarts.about.com/library/weekly/aa033102a.htm