double hook swords in CLF???

[americandesi75]

I just saw a picture of various CLF people holding poses w/double hookswords...

Is that a traditional CLF form? My guess is that it isn't, and that somewhere down the line, someone included it. I've seen other exotic weapons in the CLF curriculum, like the trident, 3 section staff, the chain whip, etc.

I'm all for it and think it is pretty sweet, I'm just wondering at what point did these other types of weapons start making their way into the curriculum, because as I understand it, the only weapons in CLF in the beginning was Broadsword, Spear, and Staff.

I'd be curious to know what the story behind this is from the Hung Sing and the Chan family lineages...

thanks,
amdes

[anton]

Traditionally CLF included the use of a huuuuge (and i mean huge) variety ofweapons. Including one unique to CLF - The Nine Dragon Fork (invented by Chan Heung).
This article from Chen Yong Fa's school in Sydney includes a scan of the Chan family manuscript showing all the CLF weapons:
http://www.clfma.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=10

[Fu-Pow]

However, you must remember that the manuscript was mainly written by Chan Yiu-Chui (sp?) which was fairly recently. So who really knows when these were adopted into the curriculum or who knows what the original sets or forms were? It's all very speculative.

[CLFNole]

I agree with Fu-Pow. Traditionally double hook swords are a northern weapon. Yeah I know people are going to say CLF is a mixture of north & south, but this weapon is usually seen in northern styles. My lineage has a form for this weapon but I think it could have been added by later generations. I really don't think Chan Hueng had the time to create so many forms.

I have heard various things regarding the Nine Dragon Trident. Some say it was Chan Hueng's personal weapon of choice. Personally it looks rather cumbersome and slow and rather impractical but hey who knows. I heard from some sifus that this weapon was created by a later generation sifu and was designed from a TV antenna or a weather vane.

Who knows and really who cares. I will never learn or for that matter ever need to use something like that. I'll take the good ol' staff any day.

Peace.

[premier]

I heard from some sifus that this weapon was created by a later generation sifu and was designed from a TV antenna or a weather vane.

That could be read as an insult =)

I agree the nine dragon trident seems a bit odd, but the chinese are known of their creativity when it comes to creating deadly weapons. Anyway.. no need to spread rumours about things that we don't know enough about.

I think it's obvious that all the forms weren't created by Chan Heung. Just like in all branches of choy lee fut, the style has evolved during these years. But this is of course just my personal opinion.


premier

[Fu-Pow]

What's funny to me is that CLF was created only 160 years ago. And yet we know so little about it's orgins. When you think about it, it is really not that long ago. Only a couple of generations (chronologically).

I guess when you are talking about the history of common folks things are not as well documented. We know a lot about the battles between kings and generals but so little about the goings on of everday people.

[americandesi75]

What a lot of this tells me is that there have been major gaps in communication from teacher to student. Rather than the teacher telling the student, "yeah, we really don't have double hookswords in CLF, but they look pretty cool, and we can make ourselves look and feel cooler by incorporating them," the student, who is lucky enough to get any CLF training in the first place, will just eat up what the master gives, unquestionably.

And then there's always the "telephone game", where stories going from one person to the next gets distorted with each person it goes through.

With the advent of information access of today's society, I think it is fair to ask these types of questions, and get at what the heart of CLF is, and what is peripheral...and put our training priorities accordingly. I really like what CLFNole had to say. It made me think: if Chan Heung was watching us, would he banging his head against the wall, saying "Forget about those exotic weapons, and make your tsop choy as good mine"?

So it really begs the question: are all these (50-300) CLF forms necessary to having a deep understanding of CLF?

[GOLDEN ARMOR]

There is no way u will learn & master all the forms, that's not the point with CLF. U go thru the set curriculim & when u reach the advanced sets & animals, ur sifu will get u to specialise in what ever animal that suits u physically. Someone that's big & not agile isn't going to do the monkey & same with the weapons, a small & not very strong person isn't going to do the kwan do or tiger fork.
The reason why CLF has so many forms isn't for the student to learn them all, it's so anyone no matter what size & shape can learn CLF.

[americandesi75]

I see...that's a relief!
But then, if your sifu has you specialize, and then when you become a sifu, how can you give your advanced students the same treatment of individualized specialization without learning every single form?

I didn't know there was a CLF monkey form...is that consistent with all CLF lineages? I'm asking because I honestly do no know.

Thanks much!

[premier]

Well. Not everyone becomes a sifu. And those who do will learn more than the "normal" students. And there's always your sifu's kung fu brothers and your sigung, who can teach you stuff that your sifu doesn't know.

I don't know about the other branches, but the Chan family branch has a monkey form. It's part of the 10 animals system.


premier

[extrajoseph]

I just visited the Hung Sing Ancestral Hall in King Mui Village where Chan Heung set up his first school. The origin and history of CLF are clearly written on the walls. Go and check it out if you have the chance and you will need a friend who can read Chinese to translate for you.

I hope this gets through, Chinese internet is still very unpredictable.

JosephX in Toishan

[JAZA]

Hello Joseph:

You are in Toishan, may be now can discover the relation of Tsoi Lee Ho Fut with Choy Lee Fut.

[extrajoseph]

JAZA and others,

So this internet cafe works. I have never heard of a Tsoi Lee Ho Fut and if the Nine Dragon Trident looks like a TV antenna then this school name sounds like a Ho Fan (rice noodle) dish! (Just joking).

As far as I know, the "Eighteen Types" of weapons have always been in the CLF system. Chan Yiu Chi was the first to record them systematically in his manuscript, my teacher told me his father Koon Pak also left some writings but not as extensive and in detail.

Often, a student would leave his training half way and went to start a school of his own and became famous. Since he was long way from home he never got to finish his training and sometimes he did not feel the need to because he was happy with the material he already has. He may also decided to study another system to complement what he has learned.

So over time we have the situation where one branch has some materials that are different to another and sometimes they are missing altogether, but that does not mean it is not in the original curriculum. CLF is very comprehensive and systematic developed over time. Everything is recorded in writing if you know where to look. After all, many of Chan Heung's descendants and clansmen are still alive and even his old house and his grave are still around for us to visit. There are old guys and young kids doing CLF all over the place in this part of China. Reading this thread I feel there is a sense of frustration in some of the postings because we don't know for sure. Don't be, save your money and catch a plane and go to the source to check it out like I did.

We have the internets, the mobile phones, faxes, telephones, all kinds of cameras and all kinds video equipments and that wonderful big bird in the sky. The world is your oyster, you can always find out what you want to know if you try, so don't jump to conclusion and readily rubbish something you don't know. But if you are happy with your lot, then stay put and train hard. Whether you want to learn the double-hook sword or not is only your personal preference. It is part of the system and it is there waiting for you if you really want to learn it.

I will be going to some remote villages where there is no computers yet, so catch you guys latter.

JosephX

[JAZA]

My opinions in weapons stuff in CLF is that to study a weapon won't make you a worst empty hand fighter, because in CLF the weapon are only taught when you reach a level in a sistematic way, you can't decide to study a duble edged weapon like the hooks if you hasn't master the single edged weapons, because you obviously cut yourself without the proper management of the weapon.
If the nine dragon trident looks like a TV antent , may be we can jump the roofs like in CTHD and take it in a critical situation.:)

Joseph.
My dream is travel to China, but the money is my problem, and may be I couldn't finish my career after september to go this year China tour. May be in the future many of us can meet in China.

[Eddie]

Hoh Foh is just another name to say Buddha in a different level of incarnation (like Hoh Foh shr twin). I will find the exact meaning for HOH later tonight. I guess Tsai Lee Hoh Foh would just be another branch of Choy Lay Fut from a Mandarin Sifu?