Pakua New York school

[Urbanfist14]

Is anyone familiar with the pakua schools in New York (Check website: www.pakuanewyork.com or www.pakua.org.

These schools (5 in all in NY) wear karate uniforms and teach japanese weaponry along with the traditional belt systems in Japanese martial arts. Are these schools legit? Any input would be appreciated.

[Chris McKinley]

Oy ve.

[Prairie]

If you're looking for a pakua school... keep looking. These folks may teach something of value - but their website doesn't indicate that it's pakua. (aside from the name)

[Ray Pina]

If you want to learn Ba Gua in NYC look to ONE place. David Chan Bongs on Bowery Street. He brought Master Wong Tsong-Fei to NYC to train exculisvely under hi. Master Wong inherited the Imperial Palace Ba Gua system from Master Kung Pao-Tien who in tern recieved it straight from the source, Founder Tung Hai-Chuan.

Imperial Palace Ba Gua was the Ba GUa of the founder and emperors body guard. There is a lot of Ba Gua out there now because it is becoming popular, but you see guys in magazine balancing weights on their arms while they walk the circle (and its not a circle, the Ba Gua is not round and this is crucial in understanding the walking and hidden kick aspect) and this is 100% against Ba Gua.

Come check out this man'' school. I have began an Okinawan system when I was 4. Studeid Hung Gar and Wing Chun as well as S. Mantis. My focus is 100% on combat. Health is a side benefit.

I have never seen anyone or a sytem so refined to just get the job done with no BS. Very viscious system. Great teacher, nice students, great atmosphere for learning. Check it out, you won't be disapointed. Do be aware that as a guest, ceratin things will not be discussed in front of you, but he will answer anything. And is too willing to show it in anction.

PM me and I can meat you and you can come along if interested.

[razakdigital]

I personally went to the school twice. These guys didn't know who Dong Hai Chuan, Yin Fu and other popular guys were in Pa Kua. I tell you no lies...they had something called shadow pa kua that didn't look like bagua to me...I personally didn't see anything that look like pa kua...this is not to insult and spite any one...but i've in this for a few years and I'm smart enough to tell when someone is doing pa kua or not.

I mean come on...you're doing CMA with a Japanese robs and stances???

[count]

Oy ve.
Realistically, Urbanfist14 already knows the answer to the school or he wouldn't have even bothered posting.

EvolutionFist,

No disrespect to your fine teachers, I know about their skills. Not that lineage means much, but I think you need to check out that lineage story. Gong Bao Tien may have met Dung Hai Chuan at the palace, but there is no evidence of him learning from Dung. Your schools sounds very nice but there are more than a couple of excellent sources for bagua in NYC.

[cherrypraxis]

count,

i go to the same school as EF and asked a similar question with regards to lineage because i have seen lineage charts and Gong Bao Dien (Kung Pao Tien) is not officially listed as a direct descendant to Dong Hai Chuan, but rather under Yin Fu. the explanation given is that Gong started studying from when he was nine years old and Yin Fu would have been his sihing as Dong was still considered the sifu though perhaps Yin had more contact with him than Dong.

at the school, there are children's classes during the weekends and one or two of mr. chan's senior students teaches them. he just oversees them once in a while just to make sure everything is in order. when these children grow up, they will be students under mr. chan's name, not his senior students who have instructed them about 80-90% of the time.

there are many nuances that books and literature cannot convey and often times, i find that information about martial arts, especially those regarded as "esoteric", are often skewed or misinterpreted...of course, there are cultural factors that remain difficult to translate as well...



Urbanfist14,

perhaps you should do more research on ba gua/pa kua. the links that these schools have do not seem to have anything to do with ba gua other than, as prairie pointed, the name.

[count]

I would not totally disagree with that concept except Gong Bao Tien was only 11 when Dong passed. If he did start learning bagua when he was 9 he would have to have been quite advanced to learn from Dong. Yin Fu spent 20 years with Dong but I'm not sure how close to the end of Dong's life that was. Of course we have to take into account, history is not to clear on this issue. Yin Fu was Gong Bao Tien's teacher. That is for sure.;)

[Ray Pina]

The best I could say is come check it out. Then you can see what type of Ba GUa you think it is.

Lineage, books, articles -- they don't mean much to me. While I respect my martial forefathers, I really do, they are not here, my teacher is. His technique is superb. Doesn't mean anything over the internet, and I know everyone thinks there teacher's technique is good.

Come check it out, see how it matches up.

[cherrypraxis]

i will not argue as it seems that this issue is a point of contention. i am quite new at mr. chan's school; i've only been there for a month. from what i understand, mr. chan says whether official or not, this is our lineage. at the end of the day, the verification for such claim is the effectiveness of the concept and technique. different people learn differently and people interpret history differently depending on perspective and agenda, political or otherwise.

it is unfortunate that none of us now living was there to witness how Gong was trained and with whom. we can only assume. i suppose we are liable to make an a-ss out of our selves over this until the end of time...

;)

[Ray Pina]

Cherry God-****-it, you make too much sense. Too practical and wise. And you hit to hard for a girl your size.:)

You're no fun and I don't want to play anymore.:p

Count, don't mind me. I've always been overly defensive of my teachers. I will say this, any school that willingly says come down and check it, should be taken up on that offer. Not in a Tiger Schulman come see our two for one gi with sign up check out.
But, come and test the technology, talk shop type of come see. Not many schools or teachers willing to do that.

O, well. Peace.

[shaolinboxer]

http://www.naturalmartialarts.com/

What about this school? Any opinions?

I was sparring with one of my fellow aikidoka, and he has a bcakground in hsing-i as well. He used some good tactics and his form is very good. Not ready to leap into lessons yet, but shopping around a bit..... (ofcourse I will consider Sifu Chan Bong)

http://www.metal-tiger.com/Wu_Tang_PCA/

A friend of mine lives and trains at this school. Any opinions? Frank Allen is the sifu.

It seems very common than Hsing-I and Pa Kau (Ba Gua) are taught together.

What characteristics define the two? Why should I choose one over the other?

Thanks for the help folks!

[Ray Pina]

I would never give my opinion of someone with out first crossing hands with them, because even demstrations can be a bit bias: the person hiding something or making it flashy for commercial reasons.

I will say this, PM me and we can meat up. I'll bring you to class. You have nothing to loose but a few hours and tons to gain.

I've been around the block a few times. I could be training anywhere, Chinatwon is certainly not the most convenient location for me, being its 4 hours of trains and subways back and forth.

There is a good reason why I train here now. I was actually very happy with my old S. Mantis Sifu who is a disciple of an underground Mantis player in Chinatown. A lot of fighting, and I liked the way we trained, all fighting or contact chi sau.

But its the technology that draws me here. Not even the Ba Gua and Hsing-I, but my teachers method. He calls it E-chuan, because he has also studied arts that aren't known here. His pole being one of them. Its his entire knowledge that I find impressive and its usefulness.

I'm learning Taiji, Hsing-I and Ba Gua, forget the fancy names, forget the priority of likining everthing in order si I can go to the park and say, "Look at my taiji."

Its 100% about kicking a$$. Which I like. And internal. Health. Can't forthet that but I take that for granted at this age.

I would love to see you there.

Peace and good luck regardless. NYC, its pretty much all here, can't really beat it for anything other than sunshine, warmth and surf. Unless its Sept. and there's a 8 to 10 foot hurricane swell running.

But I can dream.

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

Shaolin Boxer,
I have honestly been to every internal school in the NYC area. If you have any questions you can ask me. But like EF said, it's best to go down to the school and check out a class and if possible, see if you can try some things out. However, I still think it's always nice to have some background on a school or teacher.

As far as the Gong Baotien thing goes... There was a huge debate on the EmptyFlower.com site about this. People have different dates and records for Gong's birth and the time he trained with Yin Fu. It's really too hard to prove anything. One thing I can say is that Gong's Bagua, while somewhat similar to Yin Style, does have things that Yin Style doesn't. It's obvious that there is a Yin flavor but I would say that it's more than just a branch of Yin Fu. Most styles of real Bagua have certain characteristics that make them Bagua. In that they will all look similar. However, as my classmates have stated, the official lineage is:
Dong HaiChuan, Gong BaoTien, Wang ZhuangFei, Chan Bong, Mr. Chan's students...
If anyone would like any further details regarding our lineage feel free to e-mail, pm or just ask me.

[count]

I would like to know why Yin Fu is not in your lineage tree. There are many disputes of the year of Dong's birth but almost all agree he died in 1882. According to Gong Bao Zhai as quoted in the Pakua Journal August 1994 edition, Gong Bao Tien (1871-1943). This is the same as I have been taught too. Again that would have made him 11 years old when Dong Hai Chuan Died. All accounts say Gong learned from Yin Fu. It's not a debate, it's a fact. Not that I have any disrespect for your school or your teachers. I know they are the real deal. I am interested in how Yin Fu is not in your lineage tree???

BTW, if anyone is really interested, bypass all the schools listed above and go see Mr Chan. Or go see su Yu Chang (http://www2.micro-net.com/~ycsu/mastersu.html) or go see Black Taoist, Novell Bell (http://blacktaoist.com)

[cherrypraxis]

hey ray, hehe...it never occured to me that you ever "play"...i guess size is an illusion??? hehe

it was nice to push-hands with you today. you made me improvise when you threw in those unexpected hits. i had to block!!! hehe



count:

as ETB poined out, there is debate as to the exact date of Gong's birth. "official" registries in china can be suspect and it is not uncommon for people to doctor documents. i asked mr. chan about this and he did concur that Gong was instructed for several years and not a mere three. from what i gather, Yin is not in our lineage simply because the disparity of techniques and execution, however minute they seem, have to be accounted for. this disparity exists, documents or no documents. Yin, as well as the other second generation masters, had previous martial arts backgrounds and were older when they began learning ba gua; hence, one can assume that their styles differ from each others'. in this case, Gong, who was trained inside the palace from childhood to "x" number of years, learned what was considered "ideal" by Dong though he probably did have more contact with Yin.

also, i would like to point out that just because the knowledge is popular does not qualify it as truth. this has always been the case, especially in the realm of politics. the practice of martial arts is quite political, whether in history or application. (i.e. samurai, the boxer rebellion, etc.) this is particularly true of ba gua. people trained inside the palace were few and far in between. they were trained differently from those from outside. they were/are, literally, a dying breed and were made that way as the techniques are lethal. with this in mind, there is no surprise as to why the imperial family appointed Dong and his disciples, ba gua practitioners, as the official palace guards.

anyway, like i mentioned earlier, we can parry back and forth about history as interpretations vary from position and perspective, political or otherwise. it is application that we cannot dispute over.

;)

[Urbanfist14]

Just would like to take a minute to thank you all for all of your responses. I, like EF, have true respect for all true Martial arts and Artists ( by true, I mean no nonsense, superfluous techniques.) I've seen a lot myself and I have a lot to learn. I've experienced good and bad teachers, and I've learned from both. I believe all Martial arts are good as long as the individual understands the underlying principles and knows how to apply them, in addition to taking responsibility for their actions. One art is not better than another. I myself have not found a teacher whom I am comfortable with yet. I'm very patient in that process but am practicing what I've learnt on my own but as anyone with experience knows, you can only go so far by yourself. I wish you all well and always, always practice hard. Martial tradition can only survive with practice and sharing.

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

Count, this is some info I got from Shun Quan over at Emptyflower.com. Since it pertains to our conversation I thought I'd post it here:
"According to Master Wang Zhang Fei, Gong Bao Tian 's 15 years disciple : Gong Bao Tian was first a student of Yin Fu. After admitted to imperial palace, he later was taught by Dong Hai Chuan. Formally he was Yin Fu student first but later he was taught directly by Dong Hai Chuan. With the help of Dong Hai Chuan, a master of masters, Gong Bao Tian was able to elevate to a deeper understanding and ultimately possess unique identity in his lineage which is completely different with Yin Fu style from foot work to hand techniques.

Gong Bao Tian died 194x ( as I recalled, need to check my record later ) around age 85. This will take the year he was born back to 184x. When Dong died, Gong should be around 30 year of age. Where do you get the year of Gong ?
Gong baotian was born in 1871 and died in 1943"

Well, this seems to put Gong in a position to learn from Dong.

[jon]

Just a thought...
This whole linage debate REALLY spikes me!
Ive seen this in one form or another from many different Bagua practioners yet we all overlook one MAJOR issue. Bagus is designed to be personalised!
You can look at all the major linages of Bagua and see some huge differences between technique and form. What remains the same are the principals.
Dong Hai Chans students were all already masters of other systems, each one of them learnt Bagua and then added it to there previous study.
Yin Fu was a Shaolin man and Cheng Ting Hwa was a Shao Chuoa man.
Its compleately understandable that Bagua would be adapted to each different student.
I would seriously doubt there is any 'pure' Bagua as i dont personaly believe that Dong Hai Chan taught form! I think he created various palm changes for various students.
If you dont believe me then someone explain how each of the different linages has a totaly different form?
My theory is that Dong Hai Chan encouraged his students to create there own forms based of his teachings. This would be like there final task before finishing there apprenticeship.
Its also commen knowledge that Dong Hai Chan split succesorship between all of his best students, so why oh why if HE didnt decide on a single succesor are we trying to do so now 200 years after the fact.

This whole rant is just to say im SICK of people trying to say they have the 'true' Bagua. Its all relative...
I wont state my full linage out of respect for my sifu but just to drop a little credabilty to my argument.
My sifu is only 3rd generation himself, he was trained by two sifu one 3rd one 2nd (taking this as Cheng Ting Hwa and Yin Fu would be first gen). They both taught him totaly different forms and yet the theorys towards application and power generation remain EXACTLY the same.
Its pointless to argue over who has 'pure' Bagua, we should all just be VERY happy to have found such an excerlent and addaptable art.
Besides like it or not history is history and our ancestors wont fight our battles for us!

I know a very respected sifu of a totaly other system who said this to me recently...
Every style is only a method of power generation and mechanics anyone who trys to tell you that only they have the 'right' way or the 'pure' transmission is proberly running a cult!

Besides i practice Chang Jiang Chaos orginal form as the form part of my training. Ive decided that becouse my form is called the 'orginal' then obviously I have the true Bagua and the rest of you plebs are in a Mcdojo:D :rolleyes: :p

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

Jon,
See, first of all this has nothing to do with you (don't mean to sound rude) so why are you getting involved? Did I say, oh Jon's lineage is bs and I think I only have the real Bagua? Second, I don't claim to be learning pure Bagua or the only true Bagua. Third, since count is my Kung Fu cousin, I don't see how my Bagua can be more pure than his. We're just arguing a historical point within our own lineage.

However, I do agree with what you are saying to a certain extent. It is silly for people to argue about who's Bagua is real and who's isn't. Unless they are just blatant fakes. Which we have all come across from time to time.

[jon]

Eight_Triagram_Boxer
Im sorry i should have made my post a little more clear. It was not aimed at anyone in particular it was just a rant.
What sparked it off was debating who was taught personaly by Dong Hai Chan as this seems to always be a point of contension amounst several linages. There is also a lot of people trying to make out that only Yin Fu(or someone else) recieved the full system.
Again this was not aimed at you or anyone else, i just saw this thread going down that path in my mind and decided to jump up and have a winge about it.

As for having nothing to do with my and not getting involved...
Thats an odd statement to write on a public internet forum.

All the best
Jon

[count]

This is not to say ones teacher, school, generation is the best. It is my opinion that it is the duty of each teacher to transmit complete and honest information so that the art can survive. In China this was not always the case. Teachers were told what they could and could not pass on and to whom. To this day, it has not changed that much. What has changed a bit is access to some areas and certain teachers and the way martial arts is marketed to the west. This in no way means what little information is passed on is bad. It only means that teachers who are willing to teach everything within a system are rare and it takes a long, long time to learn it. HeII, I could spend the next year just focusing on the first gua of 64 palms and still not have the total picture of it's usage.

To say that because One teacher only used certain palms and another uses other palms so he could not have learned from so and so is a joke. Some teachers only taught certain things to certain students. To say that this person could not have learned from that person is also a joke. It is up to each student to change for himself the style without giving up the principles. If the teacher is good, each student gets a different method based on his or her body type and abilities. Applications vary from teacher to teacher but one of the best teachers I know teaching in Taiwan told me "applications are the fruit of the tree, but they are not the roots" It is the core principles that make bagua bagua. Bagua is bagua no matter what family or path the transmission took. The only differences are in the methods of the teacher and his willingness and ability to communicate the principles to the student. CP, EF, and ETB, I have no doubts about the bagua you are getting. When I get to New York, your school is one of the first places I would want to visit.

I did want to share the following comments of Gong Bao Zhai, one of the last students of Gong Bao Tien and a direct relative. I have many more stories passed on from Grandmaster Liu, but I'll save them for when we meet. Keep on walking the circle and keep an open mind.

[count]

Gong Bao Tian

Gong Bao Tian ( 1871 - 1943), who was also known as Gong Zi Ying, was from Qing Shan, Mou Ping County, Shandong Province. When he was thirteen years old he moved to Beijing and worked as a waiter in a restaurant. He loved martial arts and eventually became a Ba Gua disciple of Yin Fu.

There are a couple of different versions of the story which tells of Gong Bao Tian meeting Yin Fu. One story says that Gong's older brother, Gong Bao Shan, was a Ba Gua Zhang student of Yin Fu and thought that his younger brother had martial arts potential. Gong Bao Shan introduced Gong Bao Tian to Yin Fu and Gong eventually became one of Yin's top students. Another version of the story states that Gong walked past the area where Yin taught everyday on his way to work. Each day he would stop and watch Yin's students practicing. One day Yin approached the young man and said, "It looks as though you are interested in martial arts. Why don't you practice with us." Gong said that he loved martial arts but had no money to pay for instruction. Gong added, "Besides, I can already do these things." Yin said, "Show me." Gong stepped out and performed what he had been observing Yin's students practice and he did in fact perform them as well as many of Yin's students. Yin was happy that Gong had such natural talent and told Gong he would teach him for free.

Gong Bao Zhai states that after Gong Bao Tian had studied from Yin Fu for several years, he served as a body guard in the Emperor's Palace. He also continued studying Ba Gua Zhang with Yin Fu in the palace and when Yin retired, Gong took over Yin's position as a bodyguard and martial arts teacher in the palace. Gong Bao Zhai said that in Beijing, during the Qing dynasty, the martial arts that were practiced in the palace were of a much higher level than what was being practiced outside. The Qing rulers were always fearful of a martial uprising and so they hired all of the best martial artists to work in the palace as bodyguards and martial arts instructors so that they could keep an eye on them.

When the Qing government was overthrown and Gong Bao Tian left the palace, he noticed that the Ba Gua and Tai Ji that was being taught and practiced outside of the palace was different than what he knew. Because the martial arts in Beijing were not familiar to him, Gong Bao Tian decided to return to his home in Shandong Province and teach the martial arts as he knew them.

It is also reported in several written accounts of Gong Bao Tian's life that he served as the top bodyguard for the famous warlord General Zhang Zuo Lin. It is said that on one occasion, at a party, Zhang asked Gong what he would do if someone pointed a gun at him. So saying, Zhang began to pull his gun from his holster. Before Zhang had his gun pointed and ready to fire, Gong was behind him with his hand firmly holding the wrist of Zhang's gun hand. Everyone at the party was impressed with Gong's agility and martial arts skill. Shortly thereafter Gong decided to retire to his hometown. Zhang Zuo Lin repeatedly sent telegrams to Gong asking him to come back and work as his head bodyguard and teach his martial arts to the other bodyguards. Gong politely refused.

Gong Bao Zhai said that Gong Bao Tian had a total of nineteen "inner door" students. Some of his well known students were Sun Ru Wen, (1896 - 1984), Sun Fu Ying, Yu Shi You, Wang Dao Cheng, Gong Bao Zhai, and Liu Yun Jiao (1909 - 1992). Gong Bao Tian's father-in-law ran a security company and Gong's wife was also quite good at martial arts. Gong Bao Zhai said that many times he watched Gong Bao Tian's wife moving with great speed and agility while catching chickens in the yard. Gong Bao Tian's daughter was also a first rate martial artist and taught martial arts with very detailed explanations.

[Leimeng]

You might want to check out Tom Bisio's school. I am not sure of the address or phone, but I know the lineage is sound and the skill is excellent. Among the best on the entire east coast.


Peace,

sin loi

yi beng, kan xue

[Ray Pina]

In the end, who cares where it comes from as long as it works.

Some people study with great teachers and plane out $uck. Why? They don't practice. Learning at class is nothing. YOu need to take it home and study it, visualize it -- and then test it.

Maybe you can get a good piece of info from a nobody, but see some value in it and work it -- make it work for you.

For those in NYC area I'll say this. Its the little things, like, where is your "short hand" when walking the circle in the fist palm. Many keep it at their Dantien. My master pointed this out to me and I see it all the time in magazines (which I assume the person hand picked to show his "godd stuff".

What's it doing down there? Not keeping me from hitting your throat, that's for sure. Maybe it prevents me from swabbing your belly button with a Q-tip, but not much more.

O', maybe you just practice it that way ... and will use it differently when the times comes to call on your skill
B:rolleyes: (not directed at anyone, but a mentality).

The little things make a difference and seperate masters from practitioners.

[shaolinboxer]

No one answered my question about defining the different charateristics of hsing-i and bagua in light of the fact they are almost always taught together.

Any takers?

Should they just be considered two sides to the same coin, a necessary symbiosis?

[count]

For those in NYC area I'll say this. Its the little things, like, where is your "short hand" when walking the circle in the fist palm. Many keep it at their Dantien. My master pointed this out to me and I see it all the time in magazines (which I assume the person hand picked to show his "godd stuff".

What's it doing down there? Not keeping me from hitting your throat, that's for sure. Maybe it prevents me from swabbing your belly button with a Q-tip, but not much more.
The Songs are very clear about this. Even the translations got it right. But where the songs, 36 and 48 actually came from might be another bone of contention amongst different schools. I do think, however, it is the little things like that which should make you greatful for your excellent teacher. Like reading the songs and realizing that you already knew them from years of practice with a really good teacher.;)

[Ray Pina]

When I stop and think about how lucky I am, I just :) .

The best to everyone. I love this stuff and couldn't imagine a time without them, actually I can, and those weren't good times.

Glad to be back and training, discovering, learning.:)

Peace
Ray

[Eight_Triagram_Boxer]

Count...

This is very true and quite a boost of confidence.

EF...
Swab with a Q-Tip...LoL. Nice...

[Chris McKinley]

shaolinboxer,

First, you should know that Baguazhang and Xing Yi aren't almost always taught together. It does happen with enough regularity that it is common knowledge, but each art can be and is taught separately on its own merit.

RE: "Should they just be considered two sides to the same coin, a necessary symbiosis?". Not at all. Each is complete within its own principles. That can also be said of Taijiquan as well, though you have not included it. The more apparent differences between Xing Yi and Bagua are perhaps most obvious at the foundational skills level. While Xing Yi's San Ti posture isn't all that different than a linear dragon posture from Bagua, the Five Element Fists and the Eight Mother Palms look very different indeed. BTW, have you seen both arts demonstrated before? Or have you trained in either of them? I'm not casting aspersions, I simply need to know whether you will understand the specific examples I use for illustration.

Now, you may be saying at this point, "yes, they're so different that they must represent two sides of the same coin." However, neither of these arts stops at the foundational level. While both arts generally retain their signature flavor throughout, they each take on different qualities as they progress. For instance, as a Xing Yi student advances to the 12 Animals, he begins incorporating new types of movement reflecting the nature of the given animal. Sometimes this includes quite a bit of circular stepping and body coiling. See the snake form as perhaps the prime example.

As a Bagua student progresses into more advanced realms (pre-heaven, post-heaven, 64 palms, linear form, animal forms, various stand-alone forms, weapons forms, etc. depending on lineage), he begins to likewise adopt new movements. Just as with Xing Yi, the Bagua of two advanced practitioners, while containing similar or identical basics, may appear radically different regarding the advanced material. A Bagua student specializing in Mountain Palm, Thunder Palm, and Bear animal forms will look very different in a fight from one who specializes in Lake Palm, Earth Palm, Wind Palm, and Hawk, Crane, or Snake animal forms. These two students may appear so different as to be studying completely different styles of kung fu, yet both are Bagua guys.

Stereotypically, Baguazhang is known for its circles and spirals and Xing Yi is known for its linear off-angle pile-driving attacks. However, if one were to observe a Xing Yi guy doing Snake Navigates the Reeds and a Bagua guy doing Sprightly Footwork or the connecting movement after Take the Golden Tripod in Reverse or Purple Swallow Enters the Forest, one might be tempted to reverse those stereotypes.

Sometimes, there are parallel movements in each art. The connecting movement of Bagua's Carrying a Flower Basket is strikingly similar to Xing Yi's San Ti. Bagua's Black Crane Fishing is simply an open-handed version of Xing Yi's Pao Quan. Shang Bu stepping, while famous in Xing Yi, is found in both Bagua and Taiji as well.

The overall point is that there are radical differences between Xing Yi and Bagua. There are also similarities and rough equivalents. There are also outright identical movements. All of this depends on the where the arts overlap and where they explore entirely different areas. The coin analogy simply doesn't fit very well, implying only two sides to the issue and further implying that Xing Yi and Bagua represent diametrically opposite approaches to fighting...none of which is actually the case.

Are you considering studying either or both of these arts? If so, what would you be looking to get out of them, given your current understanding of what they are? Perhaps answering those questions may make further discussion more productive and precise.

[shaolinboxer]

Thank you for that reply. I am interested in Ba Gua in particular at the moment...just beginning my investigation.

One of my training partners in aikido (he is far more advanced than I in aikido) has studied bagua, and I find the forms to be very interesing.

I think that one strong area of weakness in the training process of aikido is that there are no extended solo forms, and I am interested in learning forms (and ofcourse applications) from other internal styles.

FYI, forms in aikido are found in weapons kata...but I love empty hand forms.

I did not mention tai chi as I have some experience with it already.

Thanks again.

[Ray Pina]

Count, I missed your earlier reply before -- about coming to NYC.

You sound like a good man. Please, feel free to contact me before coming. If you would like to save a buck or two, you are more then welcomed at my modest place in Long Beach, about a 50 minute train ride from mid-town Manhattan. Perhaps you're more of a city guy and want to stay in the city. Either way, let me know. We can get dinner, chat, make the rounds.

Be well.

Ray

[count]

For Monkeymind