"Twisting" power in Southern Mantis and Baji

[Water Dragon]

My Shuai Chiao teacher is having me do some power exercises from Southern Mantis and Baji Quan which invlove "twisting" various parts of the body as tightly as possible and releasing to generate power. Coming from a Taiji background, this all totally foreign to me. But I am intrigued. If anyone could discuss these methods I'd appreciate it. Thanks

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[WinnipegDragon]

I hate to bring up the basics here, as I have no doubt that you are a more advanced student than I, but when you say 'twisting' are you talking about wasit movement, or twisting at the knees/hips/shoulders? Or do you mean twisting as you deliver the strike? Or simply knotting up your muscles before you throw your punch/kick?

In my style (Hung Sing CLF) we deliver a few strikes that twist, especially the Chap Choy (panther fist or leopard fist punch) which can hit at a variety of angles. It's more like a corkscrewing action than anything else. Is this what you are talking about?

***************

I said to her, "For you who are so old but forever young I have many questions."

She said to me, "And I have but one answer - you must be a silhouette of the dragon against the moon."

[Water Dragon]

OK, Sure. I should have described it in the beginning. And even though I may have done Taiji for a while, this is all new to me. I can definitely say I’m the neophyte in this discussion. Bring me ‘dem Basics!!!!

Basically, we start out in a semi horse stance (?) back toe in line with the heel of the front foot. Then we squeeze our whole body and twist our forearms until everything is tight and release. The release brings the power. I think it’s very cool as we do a wind up and release in Taiji but they are totally different things.

Sorry my explanation is soooo crappy, but, this is new to me.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[WinnipegDragon]

The only twisting that we do is your standard 'twist the hips/fist as you strike' stuff, at least so far.

It almost sounds like you are 'bunching' up your muscles before you release. That sort of makes sense.

Try thinking of it this way. Take a few dozen elastics and cut them so they are strips instead of rings. Twist them around each other until they become like a cord. This is sort of like your muscle structure, in a basic way.

Now twist and crush the elastics together, bunching them up. The compression on the inner strands will make them bounce back like compressing a spring.

I can't think this generates a significant amount of power, but every little bit helps...

***************

I said to her, "For you who are so old but forever young I have many questions."

She said to me, "And I have but one answer - you must be a silhouette of the dragon against the moon."

[MonkeySlap Too]

Yeah, those exercises are all my fault. Email me with any questions you might have. I'm very big on understanding different types of power and how to generate the force - and then apply it.

We don't want to just throw you, we want to rock the pillars of heaven.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[illusionfist]

Tun to fou chum

[Water Dragon]

I.F. I don't speak Chinese, sorry.

Garbage Can Fist,
I shot you a whopper

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[illusionfist]

:confused:

[reaper]

Water dragon, it sounds to me like your describing a certain strech in s.p.m. where you stand in tong long ( where your back toes are pointed twards your front heel) and you reach out in certain directions and squeeze them inward and realese in hom home (probly how its spelled). Explain it a little more.

[illusionfist]

tun- swallow
to-spit
fou- surface
chum- submerge

Hope this helps. As my sifu always tells me- When you figure out the answer, you cherish it more than if the answer was just given to you.

Introspection

[MoQ]

9 out of 10 predators surveyed say "Yes, there is coiling before springing"...

[SwaiingDragon]

for shuai chiao-

i suggest sticking to tai chi and ba ji

between all of my brothers- they have studied all three and find those two to be those most helpful to shuai chiao

where do you study?

[Water Dragon]

REAPER: That’s pretty much exactly what I’m doing w/o the back foot pointed in.
SWAIINGDRAGON: I study with one of MonkeySlap Too’s students in Chicago.

Looky what I found:
1. "RE: Float/Sink & Swallow/Spit"
FLOAT; the sudden release of force, explosive energy, which is capable of bouncing the opponent away in full weight. Skillfully applied the opponent will feel like being afloat on water and is easily thrown aside. This is similar to "peng" or ward off in Taichi or I Chuan (dachengquan). In mantis this is trained by the iron ruler being "ginged" and rolled over the forearms - pop it up, catch, roll. This is expressed as fic/ping shu in training. Its the double bridge like insect flicks both arms upward. This is float.
SINK; is more difficult to master because it depends on ones natural ability to learn "feeling" or perceive the opponents exertion of force. He who has mastered this is capable of rendering his opponent completely immobile, thus putting him under absolute control. When the opponent moves one simply sinks the center into him. This is trained in the form sombogin.
SWALLOW; The exertion of flexible force usually in circular manners so that you intercept the opponents blow by causing it slide and miss the target, rather than intercepting it by force against force. This is practiced in all mantis hands.
SPIT; to strike anyway; to strike using the borrowed force of the opponent; to strike in such a way that the opponent feels swallow and spit, sink, float, in one strike. If skillfully applied some say this feels like the opponent is being shocked by electricity. These four characters sum up the secrets of south mantis techniques.<

Pretty Cool, Huh? Keep the discussion going. I have nothing left to contribute but enjoy reading about this stuff immensely

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

[MoQ]

the tun to fow chum is the action of the Posture; Elbows in front with the hanging chest, swallowed stomach, open crouched tiger-back, rounded like a basket, whatever you want to call it. The special gings or powers used may not necesarily be the same as the posture, but related.

TTFC can be more of a mechanical reference to the vertical action of the shoulder carriage and the horiz. action of the poised bridges, the "name" of the posture type... Of course there is going to be varying terminologies and perspectives, but the action is a natural thing, even if the training is esoteric.

An aggressive scoot forward with the feet then quickly gripping the ground can give the TTFC mechanism the necessary momentum to go through it's natural motions and those are characterized by the exercises and developmental drills in these relative systems. This bursting step up will accentuate the need for a strong waist, not only as the TTFC "hinge" but when add the twisting of the waist to TTFC, you get spiralling.

[This message was edited by MoQ on 02-16-01 at 08:50 AM.]

[Ben Gash]

It shouldn't be totally foreign to you. You do it for "part wild horse's mane" "brush knee and twist step" "white crane spreads wings" "play guitar" "repulse monkey".........
Most Taiji techniques involve a backwards movement with a waist turn before the main movement (in Yang style anyway).

"Weapons are the embodiments of fear,
the wise use them only when they have no choice"
Lao Tzu

[mantis-1]

The twisting you are talking about sounds more like the dynamic tension exercises in southern mantis in most of the forms exept advanced. And as for tai chi and twisting remember

seek the straight from the curve.

[fiercest tiger]

SPM use TTFC and Dip Gwat Gung (rib power)as there main source of power.

come & visit us!
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm
yaukungmun@hotmail.com

[CannonFist]

I agree with Ben Gash. This twisting does exist in Taiji. In Chen style it is very obvious in their 'silk reeling' techniques. It is not obvious in the Yang style though, in fact many people who practise Yang style do not even know it. In Yang style it is done a lot more subtle but only by people who knows about it.