Sifu's

[grifter721]

Who here knows that they will outgrow their sifu?
In my case I know that my sifu has a wealth of knowlege and in all regards is a genius at fighting, with Mantis. I knwo everyone has high regards for their sifu's especially you Ed. But this isnt a post to blow up my sytem it is just a post to see how people fare when learning, if they have to change sifus regularly or ever. My sifu has made Mantis crazzy. I have not heard or seen any other 7 star do things quite like ours...

Also this goes to teh sifus on this post esp you Ed seeing as you are the only othe rsifu I know of. What do you think of changing the style slightly that you know. Such as cuttting out moves that you find are baseless, or adding a even more dangerous fighting aspect to teh style....Cutting out what is not necesarry, or creating your own forms.
Do you guys beleive in following your sifus teaching straight to the tee or taking what they have taught you and augmenting it?

[EARTH DRAGON]

This is a very good question and kind of hard to answer.

On one hand you should believe that what your shrfu is teaching you is tradtional and the way it was meant to be taught or practiced. However if you find that what you have been taught is not the intended way you should question that. Not question your shrfu for that would be disspespectful but realize what is different and why. The more that tradtion is tampered with the more it looses structure and effectiveness..... a crappy example is a muscle car from the factory, they built it the right way, when you start changing things the vaule goes down, everyone likes a stock car the way is was created is always the best and the most valuble.. OK that was not a good example but you get the drift.

On the other hand I dont agree with deleting or adding things into a already established style. WHY? well for one you have to master your stlye before you can make educated changes in it. You should not change things simply out of lack of understanding or insuffecient knowledge of what the technique is or for....

Not that I am a fan but bruce learned a little wing chun from yip man and thought the system lacked fighting skills so he made changes. Was that good ? not in my eyes, again you must first spend your life learning before you can make changes to something that the founder spent his life doing.......

However if you find that you are not happy with your teacher it is not at all dissrespectful to seek out a new one.... when the student is ready a teacher will appear is the old saying. If you are ready you will not have to seek out that person they will seek out you......
Heck I love my sifu but just recently found out that after 12 years and even living with him he has lied to me about certain things.. am I mad a little but I would never confront him I have to much respect but I will move on to learn from others becuse of it! Is this my fault not at all.

This is not old china and you do not have to clean the floors and spend your first year in horse satance to prove you are worthy of teaching, however you also should put in suffeicient time before you judge... The end result is you are the one that suffers in the long run......

[mantis108]

Very thought provoking question.

To creat a system of CMA, first we must understand what sets CMA a part from other MA. What technical attributes not just the history and culture. Of course there is the philosophy as well. But the bottomline is quality of techniques. Then there is the question of how these techniques are organized/categorized into a comprehensive system which is then transmited from generation to generation. A chopsuey system is not going to last for a couple of decades, let alone hundreds of years.

Praying Mantis system(s) [most other older CMA systems for that matter], especially the Mei Hwa lineages, are very well thought out systems. This, however, doesn't mean that a elaborate system is a better system. There is a core structure in Mei Hwa lineages teaching. Most Mei Hwa lineages follow this core to different degrees. That's is to say one can not teach a few praying mantis forms (perhaps even use them to win a few trophies) and claims that he teaches mantis Kung Fu. He would be perhaps better to claim teaching Wushu.

Praying Mantis system has a depth, IMHO, that is bottomless. BTW there are documentations available to support this point. So the chance of dreaming up something is not that high. It is not easy to out grow. If one could, I admire his/her talon. This is by no mean to say one can't make PM more suitable for him/herself. I think ED made a great point about Bruce Lee. Those who do not have the option of having gone deep into the system would have to left to improvise. Classical training may be madness on the surface but the method within is truely diamond in the rough. You will have to keep polishing it to see the brilliance. :) By then, you will be a master.

Regards

Mantis108

[John Newberry]

Hi,
I think if you start to change and delete forms you distroy the tradition of the art. But, Thats up to the Martial artest. Myself I love the tradition.

[Ye Gor]

Thought provoking question? More like: disgust provoking.

Any true ma system/style were created in the old days - when skill and technique were proven in real fighting challanges by other masters.

If you find a 'baseless technique', that means one of two things: either you're learning cr*p or you don't understand what you're learning. Moving through form is not fighting. Forms are a way to remember fighting moves... like a book that lists facts without explaining the derivation or application.

American MAs (and maybe others, but I have no experience outside US) just love to give themselves titles of 7th dan, master, etc. Used to be that 'black belt' meant something. But then US kicked Jap a**, brought the art home and... hey, if you don't crank out a belt every six months, you loose your students, right?

Anyway, you-who-want-to-change-a-style, you think you're better than the guy who created it in the first place? Man, you should seek some major recognition then, maybe Super Master or something like that.

(ok, to add something positive to my reply: if you move seems baseless to you, find a real good teacher (may be difficult, true) and ask about the move.)

[grifter721]

Okay Ye Gor you need to relax. You obviously dont think about becoming better at anything only copying everything your teacher tells you. It is all on how YOU interpret the style. If you follow your sifu blindly then the style will not grow. If u actually thought about it the forms and the reachings that were first taught in any style hundreds of years ago has changed dramatically over the years, people change, and now in the west there are differnet kindds of shaped people as my sifu says there are so many BIG people in the world, so their styles of Kung fu will reflect their stature. You wont find a Westerner making Kung Fu look like a chinese guys. Everyones kung fu looks different. All you are supposed to take from your sifu is his knowledge of ma practice hard and interpret the style. Obviously it will be hard to become better than your sifu in his/her lifetime because they have dedicated their life to it but if you dont become better one day all that means is that you didnt practic ehard enough and you didnt learn properly.
"You badly repay your teacher if you always remain a student"
Neitchze

[Ye Gor]

I am fairly relaxed, thank you.

#1 mistake of beginner tai chi students: being too relaxed.
#2 mistake of beginner tai chi students: being too stiff.

[Pong Lai]

Ye Gor;

Great to hear from you. This is John SColaro, if you hadn't already figured out. How is your family doing? We can catch up by email another time.

Tainan Mantis;

Arrived a day late in Tainan. It is Monday early morning now. Jet Lag. Will workout with Shrfu this morning, and then will call you mid afternoon at home to get together. Looking forward seeing ShrShong.

Paul Lin;
Is your Father (or you) familiar with Shr Zheng Zhong in Taiwan?
When I see my teacher this morning, I was going to ask him about your father. Is your father still in Taiwan?

As for a becoming better than one's Shrfu, until I win the lotto and am able to spend my entire day(s) researching and perfecting my Kung-Fu, I would not have a chance. As a part timer, I am content on learning half of what he knows. The other half I will beg Tainan Mantis to teach me!

[PaulLin]

Pong Lai,
My father lives here at Orange County, California. 5 min. driving form where I lives. The name Shr Zheng Zhong is hard to make out in Chinese. My father's name is Lin Chun Fu, Lin (2 woods) Chun(a lot in qantity) Fu (good fortune).

[PaulLin]

I think one need to gone over alot of achievements to come to the level of modifying shrfu's art. Of course, that one must first understood all shrfu's arts. Then able to duplicate the arts. Then able to applying them with ease out in the world and have enough experiences on them. At last will come to the "Art level" of kungfu. As it says, it is art, not just skill, it will consist of personal style, philosophies, and expressions. The most important thing I think about that kind the level is that one MUST NOT LOST THE FUNCTION/GOOD POINT of the old arts that was passed by the shrfu when your own style/modifications was added to the art. And all that should be done as natural and necessary, not intentionally in make one's own name.

And that is only on the learner's side. What about shrfu's side?

Most shrfu don't want to teach a tudi later on changed all his stuffs and forget about where it cames form. And yet, most of them will worrie about thier arts will fall on the to wrong credit under other shrfu. You must put your position at shrfu's side when you decide on as a tudi. It is the Counfucious' teach that if you don't want other's to done it to you, don't do it to the other.

When I was teaching, I taught both the original ways and give the personal way too. So the student can choose on their own. And I also make clear that they must understand the original first and when they teach them out, must do that first too.

[Ye Gor]

What is a 'tudi'? I see this 'tudi' mentioned a lot in posts here, but I can't figure out exactly what it means.

tudili, tudila... toodles :)

[EARTH DRAGON]

Tudi means chosen student or diciple student