striking a tree?!

[chen zhen]

On the xingyi website emptyflower.com there is a picture of a guy striking a tree! That seems like a pretty rough excercise for an internal style in my opinion, as I'm a former T'ai Chi practitioner ( only practiced 1 year, though...).
Comments?

[Scarletmantis]

I hit a tree a couple of times a week while walking Ba Gua circles around it. I use my forearms, both sides of my hands, my feet, shins, knees, calves and ankles. The training was a part of the curriculum at the school I trained at, and I understand it's quite common with most other Ba Gua Zhang schools. Not to mention the fact that you're hitting trees/posts when you practice Nine Palace stepping (I don't only because I don't have Nine trees or posts in the proper position handy).

[EARTH DRAGON]

It is a good recomendation to wrap rope around the tree first, for it will take up a lot of the shock and make the surface a little easier to strike. 2 it will protect the tree's bark if you use the same tree over and over. So be good to your self and to nature

[Felipe Bido]

The strikes on trees are not delivered in the same manner you strike your typical sandbag. They are more like a "push" kind of striking, sending your weight to the tree. Also, you need some experience and conditioning after doing such excercises.

And follow ED's advice :)

[bamboo_ leaf]

Depends on the style and what you’re training for IMHO.

I used to do this quite often as well as other things using trees.
The trouble I think is that it tends to dull the sensitivity of the arm. I would imagine it would depend on what was more important in the context of your style and thinking.

Another exercise of this type is to get a weight bar and allow it to roll back to your elbow and then pop it up catching it on your wrist allowing it to roll back over the arm to the elbow. Repeat the process or practice with a partner popping it up and catching it.

as the others said be carfule you only get one body in this life.
if your playing something like TC i would say this really would be a bad idea to presue.

[RickMatz]

Wouldn't it be easier to use an ax?

Best Regards,

Rick Matz

[count]

Tree training is an integral part of Bagua and Baji training in our school. You learn very quickly if your alignment is not correct. I personally don't spend much time hitting the tree with my hands or limbs but rather using the whole body. Bamboo, we used to use a roller the way you described, in my old Llama school in Chicago. But it was more for building up the cartilage and not so much for building up internal power and alignment. I would agree with what has been said though. Start slowely and increase gradually. Let a good teacher show you what you should be doing and don't just start smacking a tree, and have plenty of dit dow on hand. And nothing beats a living body to train on and anyway, the tree can't defend itself and hit back.

[chen zhen]

I agree RickMatz, i too would agree about the ax!
*Cough*, but all jokes aside, you all use pakua as an example, but pakua would use a palm strike on the tree,but this guy striked it with a fist!!

[chen zhen]

I agree RickMatz, i too would agree about the ax!
*Cough*, but all jokes aside, you all use pakua as an example, but pakua would use a palm strike on the tree,but this guy on the picture striked it with a fist!!

[chen zhen]

woops!

[Drone]

I feel like I have to ask this. Why not hit the tree? Are there any possible downsides to ths type of training? better yet what does this type of training accomplish if anything?

[Internal Boxer]

You will just end up pi.ssing the tree off as they practice TreeKwanDo by dropping branches on your head:D :D

[shaolinboxer]

Hitting trees is like using makiwara...it's real benefit is in developing solid alignment. I use trees for sidekicking.

[IronFist]

If you guys want to be nicer to nature you could get big PVC pipes and fill them with sand/concrete and put them in the ground.

Hmmm... or maybe not, as I have a piece of 8 inch diameter (8.6 inch outer diameter) and it cost me $35! And finding it took 2 weeks!

Would thinner, more common PVC work, like the kind they sell at most hardware stores (up to 5 or 6 inch inner diameter) work?

Hmmmm...

Good luck, guys!

IronFist

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

This is a good question and,for what it is worth, hitting a tree is beneficial, especially, in iron palm training. You use a tree as you would a mook jong. Practice slapping the tree using "intent" and "visualization", as if, fighting an opponent just might be a good training exercise. Also using a tree as an alternative method of hand conditioning is good but I would not do this without having, previously, conditioned the hand, at least six months to a year. I would not put a rope around the tree because you want the full effect but it is your choice. Train hard.

Damian

[Kristoffer]

I hit trees.. mostly closed fist, but tiger too
only full force

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

Kristoffer -

May I ask if your hands hurt? Seems to me that when you hit a tree full force with your knuckles something should give. But you did not mention what part of the fist you use when you train your hands. I hope it is your knife hand. Train well.

Damian

[wolfkiller]

wait a minute here, i thought only external styles have iron hand training or any kind of body hardening trianing where you stike hard and or rough/ objects. i always though the internal arts don't have those kinds of body or striking limb conditioning .

don't internal art practitioners harden their bodies and limbs by using chi kong or chi cultivation and development?

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

Very good question Wolfkiller. Speaking for myself, I trained in the Iron Palm before taking Chen Tai Chi Chuan.

[David Jamieson]

Iron palm and Iron Body skills and their development are considered "internal" practices even though they make extensive use of external materials such as the bean bags, sand bags etc etc.

The chi kung and Nei Kung exercise are also used.

Chi Kung and Nei Kung by themselves cannot do the whole job. Just as striking and self striking cannot get the job done by itself either.

Iron skill practitioners in CMA have much less damage to their bodies than iron skills development in non cma.

Except for the fist callouses that Pan Qing Fu sports. I never did understand why that occured with his practice.

peace

peace

[Wu-Xing]

"don't internal art practitioners harden their bodies and limbs by using chi kong or chi cultivation and development?"

wolfkiller is correct ; in internal arts the practitioner is meant to only use chi gung to harden themselves however alot of people use external methods with this.as for why? its probably a different reason for each individual.my teacher never used external conditioning methods in his iron shirt development.also destroying the body and causing callouses for greater combat ability goes against taoist believes.

as for the tree striking in internal arts; it is different to external arts in the sence we arent trying to condition our hands or other parts, the strikes are basically meant to cause the tree to shake.this will only happen with proper alignment and with the issueance of energy.so this is what it trains

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

Kung Lek - In regards to Pan Qing Fu. I don't know how he does it but I wouldn't want to be in his shoes when the arthritis kicks in. Is hitting steel 1000x necessary??

Wu Xing/Wolfkiller - I am in agreement with both of you when it comes to Iron Shirt/Qigong training. However, a Taoist practitioner showed me the "how to" as far as tree training goes. I do not only hit trees but, also, use the "iron" in my training. What hitting a tree does, I feel, gives the hand a texture/feeling that is not the same when you slap the "iron". I'm not aware if the tree shakes but I am looking for a good feeling when I strike the tree. I beleive it is just part of the training one goes through to acquire the "touch"

Damian

[Braden]

From http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/SpiritSt/xinyi/taijiquanFZQ_new1.htm :

At the age of 12 Feng was sent to relatives in Beiping (today's Beijing) to learn repairing electric appliances. One of his neighbours there was a Tongbei expert (also skillful in point striking and "Light Skill" - Qinggong) from famous Cangzhou County in Hebei Province, Han Xiaofeng. Feng studied under Han's guidance for four years, not only learning Tongbeiquan, but also Red Sand Palm skill (hands hardening method), kicking wooden posts and striking sand bags. Feng was able to break five bricks with one hand strike.

At the end of 40s there were two martial artists very famous in Beijing - Xinyiquan (Xingyiquan) master Hu Yaozhen from Shanxi Province, called "One Finger Shakes Heaven and Earth" (Dan Zhi Zhen Qiankun), expert not only in martial arts, but also traditional Chinese medicine and Taoist meditation methods; the second was Chen Fake, 17th generation inheritor of Chen style Taijiquan. At the age of 20 Feng Zhiqiang through introduction of one of his gongfu brothers (who was from the same town as Hu Yaozhen) met Hu Yaozhen. Hu criticized Feng's practice methods saying they were "ruining his body".

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

I met an Internal practitioner this past weekend and the man loves trees (small world). Showed me some raking techniques, 2 star and a different strike or two. It was great. A good replacement for the wooden dummy. Train well.

Damian

[jun_erh]

It seems like interenal is cnocerned with using the tree to test whether they are doing a technique correctly (dan tien allignment or whatever) and the external with toughening the actual skin/area that is hitting the tree. Also, I don't see any difference in the result= correct form and hardened fist/foot/whatever.

[chen zhen]

Dayum, this is an old thread. Almost forgot it..
Gotta read it through again:)

[Ray Pina]

Regarding a side kick (I'm assuming we're talking about a big tree here and not something a little girl could bend): When you unload a side kick into the tree, I'm going to guess that it's not falling over. I'd guess that it doesn't even budge. So, if that's the case, are you repelled backwards? If not, I would think then that you are "holding" your kick. So why not just kick a bag FULL power than?


I would think punching a large tree is not much different than punching a brick wall -- no give: Same question: Does the tree give or do you? Are you punching it FULL power?

The reason I asked because when I did WC seniors would be using the wooden man, and it would be shaking like mad, but who can punch it with a fist FULL power? It was more like open palm sharp pushing. That is different that an uppercut or hook.

I like to strike things that I can hit with full power and full follow through. Using a tree to train alignment is different, pushing off of it, testing angles. But striking it full power, seems like you're asking for joint trouble down the line. Upper arm, forearm, fist WITH full power into a solid object with no give = broken wrist. No?

What are you guys doing? I need to know. I snapped my wrist striking somebody's ribs and it's giving me a hell of a time.

[shaolinboxer]

When I was into kicking trees, which I posted about a while ago, I could shake them up to about the thickness of my own leg.

Kicking a tree feels like kicking a well rooted 215 lb person.

Since the force of the blow escapes back into your own body, it helps develop your standing leg quite well, and you get used to hitting guys who won't move (this happens sometimes if you like to fight much heavier guys).

You can't do it too much though or you'll get hurt. Objects with no give do help build alignment, but heavy bags that you can really lay into develop your speed and power much more effectively, IMO. If you are wearing sneakers, the sole provides enough give to make it a worth while effort. But if it hurts, stop.

[MaFuYee]

i don't often strike trees, as i prefer to train indoors, but i do strike wooden and metal poles. - mainly low kicks using the soles of the feet and palm strikes. - i would not punch an 'ungiving' object, as i care about my hands. - i sometimes use my forearm, but more in a 'warding' (deflect at an angle) fashion, rather than as a straight on forearm strike for conditioning, as in tai chi, sensitivity is more important than being able to smash things really hard with your arms.

if someone is punching trees, and they are not truely silly. - i would imagine that they have done much prerequisite fist conditioning. - or they are just giving the tree love taps.

[Ray Pina]

OK.

But I think comparing the root of a tree and a 215 lbs person is insulting to the tree. I'm 200 lbs and only find sport in fighting guys bigger than myself. None of them have the root of an oak, maple, pine, ect.

In fact, generally I dislike the word "root" in martial arts. I held horse stances from age 4 to 12 for Isshin-Ryu and then again later in life for Hung Gar. I have a strong base, but no roots. It's hard to move me if I don't want to be moved, but I tend to avoid stagnation and like to keep moving in a fight. A strong base from which to move, powerful stepping, but I don't like the idea of "rooting". We are not trees.

This of course if just my opinion. And different styles tend to look at and solve problems differently.

Best in your training
Ray

[shaolinboxer]

"But I think comparing the root of a tree and a 215 lbs person is insulting to the tree. "

LOL You are so right my man.

When I was fighting, I weighed 145, so 215 meant a lot. Went up to 170 when lifting, now I'm about 155 but the strongest I've been so far.

Some guys just stand there and take shots from you to insult you when you are much smaller then them. What would you call that? I used the term rooted but it may not really be appropriate.

[Ray Pina]

LOL:)

I'd call that stupid! When training, I fight the smaller guy the same way I fight the big guy. I don't want to trade blows, never mind eat one for free! If I take a blow I want to absorb it as much as possible, not stand there. Those guys are building bad habits. When they eat a good shot from someone their same size, they'll wonder what happened.:)

[Ricardo XYCS]

Hello you all.

Probably the picture Chen Zhen saw is from my Teacher, Marcello Teixeira. He trains Xing Yi and Little Golden Bell Chi Kung since he was young. He always states that heavily conditioning should only be done by people who wants to be a teacher. Myself, I'm starting the practice of Little Golden Bell and I hit trees to condition arms, feet and shoulder.
Usually in demonstrations, Marcello breaks bricks with his elbow (no spaces between them), bends 1/2 inches iron bars with his shin and arm, and breaks 2 inches marble stone with a Pi Quan. We have some video clips of this things held in a public demonstration. It's in our website, www.xingyitchuen.com.br

[Kristoffer]

May I ask if your hands hurt? Seems to me that when you hit a tree full force with your knuckles something should give. But you did not mention what part of the fist you use when you train your hands. I hope it is your knife hand. Train well.


I condition my fist against logs of wood so that i can strike with most parts of my arms and hand against trees etc. I've busted up my knuckles somethimes but when that happens you gotta slow down a bit and work your force up again.