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churn-ging
03-09-2002, 04:38 PM
I just had a sparring session with a friend yesterday who did muay thai for three years and I was having a hell of a time trying to defend myself against his roundhouse kick.

Here's what I tried against it. At first, I tried a gang sao against it but found that it was killer on my arms and that whenever he kicked full force, my structure would collapse. Then I tried going in to kick his body while he was throwing his kick. It would work sometimes, but whenever I was a little to slow with my kick, I would usually catch his kick on my shin, which hurts like hell. After that, I just tried backing out and waiting for the kick to go past first. Then I would just go in and attack when his back was turned. This seemed to be the safiest thing to do.

My question to all of you is, how do you guys handle these muay thai kicks? What do you find works really well where you don't have to take any of the force of the attack on any part of your body?

Roy D. Anthony
03-09-2002, 05:27 PM
Side stepping the force, and remembering that Reality sucks. LOL

Merryprankster
03-09-2002, 05:56 PM
I'm not wing chun, BUT, I tend to box against thai boxers because i want the clinch...

Step in when you see the weight go to the back leg--even if they don't kick, the weight is on the back leg, rooting it to the ground. If they do throw, you've taken the power out of it by being close.

Shin check and step in (ow, unless you have conditioned shins)

One thing that has worked for me, is to teep (push kick) their hip/thigh as I see the weight shift, with my lead leg, and use that to disrupt the kick. I put my kick down and use that as my step in. I believe I have seen a WC stop kick of some sort. Might that serve the same purpose, in a similar way?

old jong
03-09-2002, 07:23 PM
You can stomp kick it, You can step in and kick his other leg, You can move back at an angle and attack when he is turned from his momentum but, something is sure:You have to expect some pain!...And attack like a Wing Chun'er the instant you can! ;) Roy is right in saying "Reality sucks"
...Just don't try to block that with your arm!!!!!:eek:

Matrix
03-09-2002, 08:40 PM
Trying to block the full impact of a hard roundhouse with your gan sao will not work, but I guess you already know that now. ;)
Never meet force with force.

Remember that most of the power of this kick is at the end of the leg, so depending on how the kick is delivered the point of contact is meant to be the foot (karate and some TKD so this) or shin of the attacking leg. You can get inside that power zone, by stepping inside and from there striking, either with a kick to the post leg or hitting the upper body to rock their balance and disrupt the kick. This of course takes speed and timing, but if you were looking for an easy solution, think again. You need to strike while they are standing on one leg and/or before they can reset their stance to deliver any type of combination.

By the way, you can step in at an angle, as opposed to straight in. I believe that Muay Thai fighters also like to use their elbows on the inside for close range fighting, so be aware of that as well.

Alternatively, you can move to the outside, going around and allowing the kicking leg to pass, and attack the post leg or upper body from the outdoor postion. You still need speed and skill here too, but you have more room to maneouvre out there.

And yes, reality sucks. But better to find it out now than having to deal with the consequences in the street. If you think that you can fight a skilled opponent without ever getting hit, you are mistaken.


Matrix

Little Buddha
03-10-2002, 12:01 AM
Just a question.. How do the Thai boxer's defend against that kind of kick?

reneritchie
03-10-2002, 06:13 AM
The Gaun Sao against the Thai kick pretty much got ruled out when Yip Man's team went to fight against a Thai team and the kicks darn near broke their Gaun arms (might even have broken a couple).

In general, defending long range kicks can be looked at similar to WCK knife vs. pole. (though it will vary slightly if we're talking Thai kick to upper torso vs. Thai kick to legs).

If you have the footwork and timing (and don't get caught by surprise), cut the kick's circle. Close in quickly and attack in a way that destroy's their balance (you can kick the supporting leg, groin, punch the throat/face, sweep, throw, etc.). Staight steps are quicker, angled steps safer. This takes practice, practice, practice...

If you don't have the footwork and timing yet (need more practice), you may have to shield first then move in. Poon Tan Bong (Half Tan Bong, what some call Kwan Sao) is safer on your arms than Gaun Sao, but still takes footwork to set up properly. You can also attack the kick, punching just above the knee-cap, kicking the leg (try to avoid shin-on-shin as Thai boxers often have well conditioned shins), etc.

My classmates wrote an article on kicking in general: http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/articles/article_casella01_kicks.shtml

Rgds,

RR

Matrix
03-10-2002, 08:06 AM
Thai boxers are very heavily conditioned fighters. They will practice kicking hard objects to condition to their shins to both accept impact and to deliver it. They meet force with force, and are quite formidable fighters. Depending on where they are relative to the range of their opponent, they may step back to have the opponent miss, or step in and take the hit inside the power zone of the roundhouse where it is less powerful, while delivering a strike or combination of their own. They can also just raise their lead knee up to stop block the kick before it reaches full strength. Think of the roundhouse much like a whip. If you can stop the forward progress of the whip before it reaches its peak, you can nullify its sting to a large degree. Once again timing is critical.

It's a tough game that they play.

Matrix

Merryprankster
03-10-2002, 08:17 AM
Thai boxers shin check the incoming kick, plant and return fire or step in.

The thai roundkick is a particularly strong kick--it is unchambered. You pretty much lean back, bring it off the ground and whack it at your opponent by turning your hips over as you would swing a baseball bat. Trust me when I tell you that it hurts about as much. Kicks to the leg with this style are not to be underestimated for the damage they will cause you.

They don't actually just "raise the knee." They raise it and lean back while thrusting their hips forward. Ideally, the incoming kick is caught on the shin just under the knee. This is the thickest part of the shin and it hurts the least to get kicked there, when shin checking. It also hurts the other guy more.

Leaning back and thrusting your hips forward creates a structure in which the force is transmitted through the back leg to the ground. Just raising the knee creates a weak structure with the hinge at the knee. This tends to make the block wobbly and unstable.

There are three ways to block the incoming kick that I can think of, and there are probably more, given my relative inexperience, but the shin check is probably the most common.

Matrix
03-10-2002, 08:20 AM
Great article.

I really believe that footwork and timing are essential. If you don't have footwork you will just find yourself in a postion where you are attempting to deflect your opponents attacks just at the point where they are most powerful. By moving correctly, you both lessen the effectiveness of the attack, and place yourself in a more favorable position for a strike of you own.

Timing of course is vital since even the most perfectly executed techniques are useless the timing is off. If you're too late, you've probably already taken a hit. If too early, your opponent will see what you are doing and can make adjustments of his own.

Matrix

dezhen2001
03-10-2002, 08:28 AM
when i used to train with my mate who does muay thai, i developed my own way of dealing with it (before i did WC). I used to just blast straight in and shoulder barge him :) using both my arms to protect me from/control his thigh...

didn't work all the time, but when the timing was just right it was a peach :)

david

Matrix
03-10-2002, 08:46 AM
Good point about the unchambered kick. That's a very important detail. And yes, never underestimate the power behind the kicks. It would be a serious mistake in judgement to do so.

Regards,
Matrix

Merryprankster
03-10-2002, 09:06 AM
I agree matrix.

My personally prefered tactic is to step in and counter with a right cross, followed up by clinching. I wrestled, so I like to be there. :)

burnsypoo
03-10-2002, 09:11 AM
Matrix, do you have any firsthand experience with a muay thai fighter? or maybe any sanshou? How were their legs/kicks/methods different from the tae kwon do you experienced in your youth?

-BP-

Merryprankster
03-10-2002, 10:45 AM
I'll bite.

I don't have TKD experience, but my lil' bro does and I used to watch him and we used to mess around. I also have sparred kick boxers with a TKD background.

The first and most obvious difference is that the thai roundhouse is an unchambered kick. It swings directly up from the ground as though it were a "deadleg." The power is generated by hip torque, not a snapping motion. The leg is very relaxed on impact. You are trying to bury your shin in and through your opponent. The extreme amount of power generated by kicking this way precludes striking surfaces other than the shin. Attempting to use the foot or the ball of the foot, would probably break something.

A TKD'er tends to chamber their kicks. They raise the leg up first, and then snap the kick out there. IME, this does not create as much power as the thai kick. That doesn't mean it won't work, and the philosophy is different as well...

Now, while all kicks are legal in thaiboxing, the push kick and the roundkick are the two most common. The push kick is a chambered kick, and while it is thrown quickly, the purpose is to maintain distance/set your opponent up. It's not usually thrown as a "damage" weapon. Think of it as a boxer's jab. Used for distance, probing, and set-ups.

A TKD'ers chambered kick has an advantage over the thai roundkick in that chambering the kick disguises the kick you're going to do--a sidekick, a front snap kick, and a round kick are all initiated the same way from the outsiders point of view, and you can adjust what kick you are going to do fairly quickly if need be.
Multiple kicks can be thrown in much less time.

As bad as Thai Boxers hands tend to be, they have been better than the TKD'ers that I've met and played with. Thai boxers are intimately familiar with the clinch and fire knees and elbows in it. They also have an arsenal off off balancing "takedowns." Not really throws, not really kicks, sort of a footsweep thing.

Thaiboxers are usually more experienced giving and receiving leg shots. They also usually have more conditioned legs that can take the heavy beating of throwing and blocking kicks.

Matrix
03-10-2002, 03:22 PM
Burnsy,
I was never young. ;)

Merryprankster's description is right on the money in terms of description of the technicalities of the kicks. The power of a TKD can be quite hard, but too many TKD guys have trained for tournaments have learned bad habits of just trying to "get the point" rather than strike the opponent. Thai boxers train to knock out, so there's no abiguity in their objective. That's one reason why I avoid the sport element, it trains you to "play" rather than to make your opponent "pay".:cool:

However, I had several years of kickboxing experience before TKD, so I was used to kicking or punching hard.

Regards,
Matrix

churn-ging
03-10-2002, 05:53 PM
Thanks for all the responses guys. You have given some things to think about and to work on.

I'm going to have to work on my timing and footwork more if I am going to be able to just come in and attack either his base leg or his body.

And thanks for the article Rene, it was great.

p.s. how many of you guys on here condition your shins? If so, how do you do it? Do you use the rolling pin and just roll it over your shins every day?

Merryprankster
03-10-2002, 06:09 PM
Find a hanging heavy bag.

kick the bag with your shin, starting out light, getting harder and harder for maybe 20 or thirty kicks.


Do it again the next day. Etc. I have heard the rolling pin thing before. I don't know if it works.

One way to block you might think about is called a "baseball block."

I've seen something similar to it in the WC vid clips I've looked at.

Say he's kicking with his right.

You raise your left leg straight up. Your left arm/hand should be in a high guard, tucked by your head, with your elbow glued to your side like a boxer defending a right hook. The knee and elbow should touch or even overlap. You might hunch a little bit. The right hand comes over to the left and fits underneath it as if you were holding a baseball bat. The right forearm will be across your face to protect it. From this position, step in with your left as he puts his kick down and follow up with hand strikes.

I jab on the way in and start "1-2 ing" till I get close enough to clinch, but I'm sure the entry is applicable to whatever you want to do.

Matrix
03-10-2002, 06:55 PM
I use the heavy bag. I have one at home. You can learn to develop a lot of power by working the bag. Learn to drive through the bag, not just hit it.
As merrypranster says, be aware of hand positioning. What he's describing is more kickboxing/thaiboxing style, but keep your hands up and forward. You'll see a lot of TKD-type people throw their arms down and out to the side (for balance I guess) but it's much better to have your hands up and in front. Your balance should be strong without giving up a strong hand position.

I don't know about jabbing to enter. Kicks are longer range that punches, so I would rather work my way in with the kick and finish off with the hand strikes. Forget clinching, unless you like to grapple. But hey, whatever works for you. Just be aware of what you are doing and why. Don't just imitate others.

Merryprankster....
You don't sound so "merry" to me. You sound like one tough SOB ;)

More power to ya,

Matrix

Merryprankster
03-10-2002, 07:13 PM
Matrix--I mean, as he brings the kick back to its starting point, you release your block and follow his leg in. As you step with the left, you jab... keep jabbing till you make contact with his face and combo time :) Does that make more sense?

Matrix
03-10-2002, 07:18 PM
Sure does. I think I may have misinterpreted your previous comments.

Matrix

burnsypoo
03-10-2002, 07:27 PM
How's fluffy?
:)

Merryprankster
03-11-2002, 12:23 PM
fluffy?

me or matrix? :)

Mutant
03-11-2002, 02:15 PM
These guys have already covered this with great answers, but I'll try to add my $.02.

You definately don't want to get caught in the power band of these kinds of kicks, they can be devestating. Obviously, footwork is important here. Get inside or outside if you have to, inside is better cause thats where you can put your own tools to best work instead of just being chased around...but if you have to, just shuffle back and out and then shoot in after. If you do get caught in the firing range, I've had some success with turning kwan sao (bon sao/tan sao) in a quick spring-like motion that throws the energy back, and then either grabs leg (can't against leg kicks, only upper) to turn and throw by leg or turn and spring in up the leg. If your arms arent conditioned this could hurt bad (even if they are it can hurt) and again, its a last ditch technique if you got caught, better to have moved in and out of the brunt of the power. Bottom line; you will get hit sometimes, it hurts.

You can counter kick too; Another approach (as opposed to countering with the shin block, which I'm not so familiar with applying) is to counter kick simultaniously, while moving inside.

As far as conditioning your own legs, the heavy bag is a good & safe way to start. Once you get used to kicking full power through the bag, you can kick harder things, but build up slowly. I like to practice kicks (including round type kicks with instep and shin) against a log. A wide log with bark, freestanding against wall with a rope holding the top. Its good for conditioning arms, too. After a while it doesnt hurt so much and you can kick it similar to the heavy bag. Also against a freestanding (on base) steel rod. Its really not as bad as it sounds. You can put dit jow on legs afterwards. Also, two man kicking drills, you kick legs together, and practice leg kicks/blocks; have your teacher show you if he or she hasnt already.

Matrix
03-11-2002, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by burnsypoo
How's fluffy?
:) Fluffy's just great. I'll tell him you asked for him ;)

Matrix

Girl Power
03-11-2002, 05:45 PM
You are all focusing on the kick.

Why?

We are trained not to chase the hands - so why start chasing the kick.

The Thai kick is strong and difficult to block. Most likely you will not really see it coming anyway and the eye foot reaction will be too late.

Our wing chun attacks are also difficult to block from close - how does MT deal with those?

Yes some MT fighters are tough so are many wc guys. However, you will not know who you are fighting good/ bad judo/jj/mt etc. So....

You must learn to control the distance and move in quickly to launch you own attacks. By keeping the pressure on the other man you will prevent him from launching effective strikes. It is good to experience the methods others use to fight, but at the same time they must be put into a context such that they just become attacks from different angles.

Otherwise we start remembering reactions to specific techniques which is not a good idea.

My personel experiences with kicks and after one is launched:

1. If out of range - move back or let it pass (the dumb kicker)
2. If in range move forward with a leg raised, sometimes covering with an arm or two.
3. If close, as the leg comes up or around - jam the centre.

In the above the kick may land and hurt a little but by moving the intended target and impact weapon has changed.

gp

Merryprankster
03-11-2002, 06:28 PM
I agree that you need to work on your OWN methods of dealing with the thai boxer, but he was asking for some suggestions... we threw them out. He can pick and choose some ideas and adapt from there.

Have you ever dealt with a thai boxer before? The answer is important. The response you had seems to indicate you haven't. I'm not insulting you, I would just like to know.

That said, I've never dealt with a WC guy :) But this isn't about dealing with a WC person... it's about dealing with a thai boxer... and I have some experience there.

Matrix
03-11-2002, 06:34 PM
We are focused on the kick, because that was the original question asked. No one is chasing the kick, but ignoring it isn't the answer either.

Why do you say you will not see the kick until it is too late??
Also, why move back if the kick is out of range?

I don't really see how your response is much different than what was posted earlier.

Peace,

Matrix

Merryprankster
03-11-2002, 06:37 PM
Matrix--

Might you know what she means by lifting the leg and using an arm or two? I don't understand. I underSTAND, but how is it applied/used in this instance? I've seen something similar to it in some WC clips, but I'm still trying to understand the underlying structural issues...

burnsypoo
03-11-2002, 06:49 PM
hey now, hey now. I never asked FOR him, just about him.
=)

-BP-

Matrix
03-11-2002, 07:01 PM
Burnsy,
He's doing well.

Matrix

lotus kick
03-11-2002, 09:43 PM
you guys are so caught up in Techniques vs Techniques that you lose seight of what is really important. Moi tai kicks can happen within 1/4 of a second and the fighter have three weapons to work with to confuse you. you are not going to know when and how he will kick.

some times you just have to suck in the pain and hurt him 5 times as he hurt you.

Girl Power
03-11-2002, 10:00 PM
OK OK perhaps I wasn't very clear.

Firstly I have trained with people experienced in MT. They are not champs but serious practioners.

I'm just trying to say that sometimes the attack is not the problem - just your approach to dealing with it.

It is good to experiment and experience different attacks and analyse outcomes.

Shin on shin is not an option for me so i have found other ways. I can't condition myself for four years and hope that somebody fights me after then!

The gentler way is to avoid a kick or smother/jam it. A compromise is to move off range. That can be closer or further back. There are other weapons that could come into play elbows and knees.

I am also trying to make you understand that whilst a kick is strong so is your kick/punch. Defense by offense.

You will rarely see the attack which hits you - people can hit and kick so fast now - unless you are squared off in a match or in a movie. Its a mess of limbs and bodies. Our CONCEPTS should be utilised and TRAINED.

Perhaps the original question was about a specific technique and I have waffled a bit - sorry i just had something to say. I just wish people would be more positive about wc and understand what a weapon they also have.

Finally just because I change my mini for MT shorts does not make me experienced in MT - you'll never know.

GP

Girl Power
03-11-2002, 10:01 PM
lotus kick has the idea

GP

Mr Punch
03-12-2002, 01:25 AM
I think the first five or six posts basically covered this but...

MP, the 'stop kick' you mentioned needs a sidestep, and I think is too slow. If you mess up the timing you really lose your balance and are open to a nailing.

(Can't remember who - sorry, bit of a hurry...) the gaun to the nerve bundle is nice if you step in past the shin contact range and really screw your pivot into the ground. I've seen this done by a very experienced, conditioned and fast practitioner who supplemented it with a simultaneous strike to the same area (kind of a gaun da I suppose), which caused the Thai guy's leg to buckle completely when he put it down. That wc guy was fast enough to bounce that strike into a series to the Thai guy's head and upper body. I'm not and I doubt that many people are without taking some damage!

The only one I've used regularly without too much of a beating is to step in quickly past the shin, raising the left leg (assuming right kick coming in). This can be turned into a rising/falling knee to the nuts/bladder, with excellent stabilising qualities when you contact. Or, depending on the range and timing (if you are too slow/far away) you can turn it into the (MP's) left knee/left arm block position. It can even be turned into a body slam (as Dez ?) mentioned though how you're getting this with your shoulder I don't know!?

Just a couple more ideas...

Merryprankster
03-12-2002, 08:42 AM
But matrix's point is spot-on... you are suggesting "techniques" to deal with the kick, just the way we were. It's no different. Read our posts again. We recommend a fight strategy (ie, close the gap) along with the technique (block, move in, move out). Read the posts again.

I use the MT push kick as a stop kick, so it's not that slow. As soon as you see the weight back and the hip start to turn, you throw the push kick, step DOWN at the end of it, which puts you inside, and throw leather. If he was trying to fake a kick, so what? You've STILL thrown a push/stop kick that landed. The trick is to throw at the hip or center, not the thigh.

Now, if you are referring to the rather detailed explanation of the MT kick vice TKD, and shin conditioning, those were responses to specific questions, and have pretty much nothing to do with fight strategy--or even the original question.

GP- I have unconditioned shins as well, so I prefer to close the distance, as I mentioned in my posts. My "technique" for doing so is just different than yours... the same fight strategy though.

apoweyn
03-12-2002, 09:17 AM
lotus kick,

technique versus technique seems like a legitimate way to address the question. while it will never be as simple as "if he does A, i'll do B", that's still a very valid starting point. moreso, i believe, than saying "absorb the pain and hurt him 5 times as much." how do you propose to do that? he's not going to stop after he scores a good kick on you. he's going to continue. just as you are. that just doesn't sound like a workable plan. a workable plan begins with a technical addressing of the problem. either a technique or a concept that can be physically embodied and experimented with to creat a workable solution. absorbing the pain and then hurting him worse sounds ideal, but it's not a workable solution.

besides, with experience, you'll see the predictors for that kick. it doesn't come from nowhere. there are hints. there are leads. and when you become familiar enough with them, you can take advantage of them, as it is with ANY OTHER TECHNIQUE OR CONCEPT. it's a question of addressing the situation with the right information and the right training method.


girl power,

your ideas sound perfectly valid to me. they're not a shoe in though. bear in mind that for many muay thai fighters, inside is actually where they want you too. so while an overwhelming offense is a good idea, it's not a guarantee. it may get you clinched and elbowed/kneed. that's not to say don't do it. it's just a question of investigating the possibilities and working out some strategies to address them.


as a sidenote, my teacher advised that IF YOU HAVEN'T CONDITIONED YOUR SHINS, you can perform the leg block a little differently and have it serve much of the same purpose. turn your toes inward so that your calf is turned outward. that way, you absorb the kick on the calf and thigh rather than on the bone. it absorbs the kick without quite as much duress to you. granted, it won't hurt the kicker. but it won't hurt you either.

moving in on an angle, to either snuff the kick or fade away from it's maximal power, sounds good to me. does wing chun train that sort of footwork? (earnest question)

quick note on the contrast between muay thai and taekwondo kicks: taekwondo kicks aren't quite as powerful in my experience, but because they're chambered, they're more difficult to step into and snuff. the kick goes where the knee is pointed. so if the kick is directed at you, the knee is pointing toward you first, placing it between you and the opponent's body. you can still snuff the kick if you're quick. but the mechanic for doing so is a little different from that in muay thai, in my opinion.


stuart b.

Matrix
03-12-2002, 10:51 AM
Yes, I understand that we are talking technique vs technique. We are just discussing options here. Now the original poster is not a WC person, and they've been getting the usual "well it depends" type answers. So we're just throwing out some options. It's just a point of discussion.

Ultimately there are techniques that will be used, and every situation is different and we can "what if" our selves into a corner, but in the end some techniques are more effective. Yes, we all understand that there is a system, and not just a bunch of techniques put together in a package.

At one point I was thinking of posting a disclaimer. So here it is ....

"This is not a pure Wing Chun discussion. Please do not take offence. The participants are just throwing some abstract thoughts around here. I apologize to anyone whose sensitives have been offended."

Regards,
Matrix

churn-ging
03-12-2002, 12:28 PM
Hi everyone.

I really like all the ideas that you have given. It's just to bad that I won't be able to try them out on him until Friday.:(

But I have been working on my footwork, trying to close the gap and come right in and all that. When you guys do that, do any of you lift your leg up to some how cover the line of the kick? Or if the kick is towards the body, bring your hands up to cover the body?

Right now I'm trying to get the reaction down so that I can just come right in at the first sign of the kick.

lotus kick
03-12-2002, 01:31 PM
Apoweyn - you know that i'm right and you even expanded on my comments to prove that i'm right. but you also make it sound like i was worng.

As for Merryprankster and Matrix - you two just don't get it.

When fighting a Moi tai guy, his kicks are so fast, thet you might not able to respond with the correct movement. espically when you have not conditioned you reactions. One and only thing to keep in mind that when he kicks, he is presenting a opening. as a wing chun fighter, your job is to take advantage of that opening to take contol of his body so he can't react back.

sanchezero
03-12-2002, 01:42 PM
"as a wing chun fighter, your job is to take advantage of that opening to take contol of his body so he can't react back. "

Golly, thanks, that was enlightening. And I didn't feel overloaded with useless information.



:D

Merryprankster
03-12-2002, 01:49 PM
Lotus--it's unrealistic to tell somebody to do something and not show/explain to them how to do it.

You say--oh, you have to take a hit and then follow up. Well, great. But HOW do you follow up? And both Matrix and I responded that one option, at least, is to move in and throw before balance is recovered. There are some others that we offered.

And Muay Thai guys being too fast to block, stop, move in on, etc? That's actually, and I rarely ever use this word, stupid. It's like saying that Wing Chun hands are so fast there's nothing you can do about it. I move in all the time. I regularly move in to take power out of the kick and throw leather to start backing the guy up and stay inside their kick range, or clinch so I can fire some knees and elbows.

churn-ging--e-mail me at merryprankster@msn.com I'm a non WC guy, but because I am NOT an MT fighter per se, who has sparred with MT fighters, I might have some insight in how to deal with them. I use a similar forward pressure strategy to how WC might approach this.

apoweyn
03-12-2002, 01:53 PM
lotus kick,

no i don't know you are right, because you didn't really say much. hence the need to expand on it.

okay, let's do this. tell me, without discussing technique (which was your earlier objection, yes?) precisely HOW you would close distance and control the kicker, GIVEN your earlier assertion that the kicks are very fast and very difficult to predict.

i believe there are ways to do just that. but if you're insisting that i'm overlooking specifically what you said, then i apologize. and i'd like to hear it again.

what i saw was a suggestion that you dish out 5 times what you take. but i'm saying that statement, in and of itself, isn't enough. specifically, how would you address the following:

1) getting past that very fast and unpredictable kick
2) hitting a continually resisting opponent 5 times as much as he hits you
3) controlling an opponent who will simultaneously be trying to control you through clinching, kneeing, and elbowing

i'm not saying that you can't do it. i'm not saying that muay thai is superior. i'm asking for more than you gave. i'm asking for specific technical advice, which was the original point of the thread.


stuart b.

Roy D. Anthony
03-12-2002, 02:19 PM
Lotus Kick is correct!!!in more ways than one.

One cannot state what or how to do it, without looking like someone with lack of experience. Many times only once you are involved in the experience can you understand what or how it is to be executed.

Without meaning to offend anyone here, however, many here on the forum are speaking from lack of experience/confidence in the Wing Chun system, that is why many of you are still responding with technique versus technique answers. This is often attributed with your FEARS in dealing with these types of situations.

CONFIDENCE in the WIng Chun System refers to a state of mind where one is not worried in how to deal with these types of situations. Just Do it!! don't analyze it. Trust yourself your skills and your knowledge!!!

apoweyn
03-12-2002, 02:33 PM
you were taught this way? your sifu waxed philosophical about the centerline, told you to have faith in wing chun, and said, "now just do it!!"

surely, when you were learning, technique was discussed. that's not a sign of inexperience. it's a sign of sound teaching method.

personally, i learn technique (some method of movement), i apply it, i learn the principles that make it work, i apply those principles, adjust the technique as necessary, and create a workable solution.

nobody citing technique here is suggesting that it's a question of 'when he does A, you do B.' but technique is a way of conveying an applicable understanding.

okay, i have a feeling this is largely misunderstanding. so i'm going to ask you a similar question to lotus kick. how would you go about conveying your skills in this area to someone else WITHOUT discussing technique?


stuart b.

sanchezero
03-12-2002, 02:39 PM
How do you trust the system without learning it?

How do you learn the system without studying it's component parts?

How do you study those parts without some discussion and explanation of what they are?

Merryprankster
03-12-2002, 02:46 PM
Roy,

I'm a HUGE trial by fire guy, so trust me when I say that I understand what you are saying. However, from where I am sitting, Churn-ging is being told to "avoid the takedown," without being shown "how to sprawl."

You show him some options, then let him go play. But just to "let him go play," is a monstrous wrong.

dzu
03-12-2002, 03:49 PM
IMHO the problem with these "how do you counter an XYZ" or technique vs technique questions is that a technique has to have certain conditions in place before it can be successfully applied.

There are many ways to counter a round kick. None of them will work if you don't have the timing to enter or the spatial awareness to put yourself in a good position to begin with.

All of them will work if you DO have the necessary non technical intangibles and you know their strengths and weaknesses when you apply them.

Who can say that what I have used successfully will work for you?
Maybe I'm quicker/slower, taller/shorter, or stronger/weaker. More important than getting techniques is finding a way to analyze things and problem solve so that you can find your own solutions.

For example, it's often said that WC doesn't kick high just like it doesn't punch low. But if that's the case, why does Gwei Ma Choi (kneeling horse punch) exist in some branches? Rather than dismiss it outright, find a way to make it work. Think about when and how it cannot work. This thought process will help you continually improve regardless of the technique.

What really makes a good fighter is the experience and instinct to know when is the proper time and place to use the tools available. Your techniques are your tools, but even a lousy carpenter can have the best tools whereas a craftsmen and artisan can make do with only a few.

Dzu

Merryprankster
03-12-2002, 03:58 PM
The carpenters, regardless of their skill level, must still be shown how to use the tool.... then personal abilities come into play.

dzu
03-12-2002, 05:52 PM
Learning how to use the tool should be taught in person with one's Sifu and instructor first. Then experience and problem solving help to internalize the concepts. Technique vs technique comparisons in written form can lead to false assumptions and inappropriate presumptions since timing, distance, unwilling partner etc. are not factored in. For every case that says technique A will work, someone can create a condition that it won't work. Compare all you (general case) want, just be aware of what is being left out and how important a role it can play.

Dzu

Merryprankster
03-12-2002, 06:02 PM
Completely understand--that's why a number of options were suggested with a set of possible strategies, that he'll have to go test for himself :)

I hate "what if" games too... takes all DAY :)

Matrix
03-12-2002, 09:03 PM
Merry Prankster,

You still don't get it. No soup for you....one year.:D

Matrix

P.S. I don't get either, so it's to the back of the soup line for both of us.

Matrix
03-12-2002, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by lotus kick
When fighting a Moi tai guy, his kicks are so fast, thet you might not able to respond with the correct movement. To fast to respond? This comment blows my mind. Please tell me what a pathetic person such as myself should do in the face of this blinding speed????

I humbly await your words of wisdom.

Matrix

Mr Punch
03-13-2002, 03:31 AM
Mp
[B]But matrix's point is spot-on... you are suggesting "techniques" to deal with the kick, just the way we were. It's no different. Read our posts again. We recommend a fight strategy (ie, close the gap) along with the technique (block, move in, move out). Read the posts again.

I thought I was agreeing. With both you and Matrix... I'll have to read my post again :) but as I was writing to follow up a couple of suggestions you had already made I thought it was implicit that I didn't agree with the post above mine (GirlPower? or Lotus Kick) that you were losing the point by talking about techniques. Of course we have to talk about techniques... I know I'm a newbie on this forum (!) but I thought that writing about principles only would get pretty boring (keep centreline, first weapon:first target etc). I was also addressing the original question: what do you do about it?

Mp: I use the MT push kick as a stop kick, so it's not that slow. As soon as you see the weight back and the hip start to turn, you throw the push kick, step DOWN at the end of it, which puts you inside, and throw leather. If he was trying to fake a kick, so what? You've STILL thrown a push/stop kick that landed. The trick is to throw at the hip or center, not the thigh.

Sorry, I should have said "I'm too slow" instead of "it's too slow" :D I don't like this technique personally, which I thought was kind of addressing the question. I can see your point that kicking for the hip makes more sense though.

Churn-ging: good for you to stick to your question! :D :D First you were asking for techniques right? Check the footwork out before Friday! If you try the stop kick follow Mp's advice, I can't do the **** thing without getting nailed. If you want to try my fave, you should be able to follow straight through centreline and shortest distance principles. The answer to your question about raising your leg (obviously, as always: imho... I can't use anybody else's :D !) is that you should be able to adequately cover your centreline with your leg as you step, it's up to you how high: but don't forget, the kick in question doesn't attack your centreline from the front, so you will take some of it. As usual, maybe, distance and timing are important. And yes, of course use your hands too, both to cover and get those strikes in!

Sorry it's a long one. Gotta go train.

Merryprankster
03-13-2002, 07:44 AM
Mat,

I have a nasty habit of not addressing my posts--the part about "reading the posts again," wasn't directed at you.

As for the stop/push kick--I'm not that fast. I have, at best, average speed. I think where you might be having the problem is timing. You can't wait on it! You have to go just as the weight comes back and the hips start to come round. This is well before the kick actually happens. I think you might be going "oh, here comes the thigh!"

I only say this because I used to do that too.... and I got hit :)

lotus kick
03-13-2002, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by apoweyn
lotus kick,

no i don't know you are right, because you didn't really say much. hence the need to expand on it.

stuart b.

Ape- i love to explain everything I know to you but i'm not a text book. Please ask one question at a time. You can e-mail me at larryfan1@hotmail.com

apoweyn
03-13-2002, 09:38 AM
lotus kick,

i don't have any specific questions for you beyond those i asked. the original poster had a specific question. specific answers were provided. you suggested that said answers were off the mark. so i asked you several specific questions in response. that doesn't demand a textbook. it only demands that you provide a viable alternative to the answers you dismissed.

i'm sorry if this bothers you. but i genuinely have no inquiries beyond those i've already voiced. if you'd like to address them here, i'd appreciate it.


stuart b.

Mutant
03-13-2002, 10:18 AM
I think both sides to this argument (technique -vs- improv...for lack of better semantics) have valid points.

What I believe is that both sides can exist in training, its not just black and white like this argument seems to be distilled towards.
Of course every situation will be different and you just need to avoid the blows (or take if you get caught) and improvise, neutralize, get inside and do your thing, which will be improvisational......

But you some of you act like its a crime to break it down and take a practical look at what techniques may work best against certain oppositional techniques. I think that is foolish...You need to KNOW what tools work where, which is not in conflict with, but is in line with what chi sao and the jong teach us as well. But of course this would be improvisational, done within the same principles of the art. It is cruel not to let someone on the tools and just tell them to go in and do something.

I do believe that using the training method of 'x techinque against y attack' training and mindset (as in kenpo or karate ta sabaki) is generally really bad and doesnt work.

But I also think that too that many CMA people fall into the trap of the 'anything i improvise will work at anytime' can be its own trap and bad too, with loosy-goosy fighting with little real experience against what theyre training for and then they get crushed and are left scratching their heads wondering what the hell went wrong.

There is nothing wrong with analyising or suggesting particular techniques or situations. I know you are waxing philosophical about the principal, and that is beautiful and all, one of the things that has drawn me to study kung fu, but there is a place for techniques to be used within the principles, it does not nessesarily mean abandoning them. Of course these techiques should be formless and improvisational and just get the job done. But there is a certain inherent structure within, which warrents analysis and breakdown. The same as analyzing bon sao against a straight punch.

As far as it being impossible to see and react against or gauge and stop a muay tai kick, well thats just ridiculus. Of course it depends on who youre fighting, if youre a novice fighting a champion tai boxer that may be true, but if youre evenly paired and fighting with that mind set, then you just gave up part of the fight, for lack of understanding, or maybe lack of practicing and analyizing the techniques, a process which you apperently belittle.

Besides, MP, Matrix, Apowen and some others were just honesly and practically trying to answer the original question. Don't get your panties in a bunch, just because some people are not talking the typical Wing Chun Party Line.

Merryprankster
03-13-2002, 12:48 PM
Mutant,

THANK YOU!

I've been desperately trying to figure out a way to say "both ******!" since the start of the thread. I believe you've done that.

Matrix
03-13-2002, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Roy D. Anthony
One cannot state what or how to do it, without looking like someone with lack of experience. Many times only once you are involved in the experience can you understand what or how it is to be executed.Roy,
Then why do we have books and other sources of information (e.g. websites) that provide such methods as:

Technique against a roundhouse kick.
Technique against a straight punch.
Technique against a hook punch
etc...

Do the people who provide this information lack experience? Are they operating from a position of fear?
While I certainly agree that going into a situation with a preset strategy in mind is unwise, is it wrong to consider some techniques better in specific situations? I must admit that I find this perplexing. :confused:

Sincerely,
Matrix

lotus kick
03-14-2002, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Matrix
To fast to respond? This comment blows my mind. Please tell me what a pathetic person such as myself should do in the face of this blinding speed????

I humbly await your words of wisdom.

Matrix

You tell me, you are the matrix after all, who i'm i to teach the teacher.

Matrix
03-14-2002, 06:46 PM
So, I guess you don't know either.
Not only am I not the teacher, I'm a pretty average student.

Matrix (it's just a movie) ;)

Sabu
03-14-2002, 07:11 PM
Lotus Kick

lotus kick
03-15-2002, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Matrix
So, I guess you don't know either.
Not only am I not the teacher, I'm a pretty average student.

Matrix (it's just a movie) ;)

I know the answer, but its my answer. Anything i TELL you about my answer will be useless for you.

you must love the movie if you name yourself after it. ;)
I was a good movie.

Matrix
03-15-2002, 03:54 PM
I needed a name when I joined the forum, it was just one of the first things that came to mind. And yes, I do like the movie.:)

As for your answer, being for you only. Fair enough.
I know that my answers were not well received, so I guess I see where you're coming from.

Matrix

Akuma
03-16-2002, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by MutantWarrior
These guys have already covered this with great answers, but I'll try to add my $.02.

You definately don't want to get caught in the power band of these kinds of kicks, they can be devestating. Obviously, footwork is important here. Get inside or outside if you have to, inside is better cause thats where you can put your own tools to best work instead of just being chased around...but if you have to, just shuffle back and out and then shoot in after. If you do get caught in the firing range, I've had some success with turning kwan sao (bon sao/tan sao) in a quick spring-like motion that throws the energy back, and then either grabs leg (can't against leg kicks, only upper) to turn and throw by leg or turn and spring in up the leg. If your arms arent conditioned this could hurt bad (even if they are it can hurt) and again, its a last ditch technique if you got caught, better to have moved in and out of the brunt of the power. Bottom line; you will get hit sometimes, it hurts.

You can counter kick too; Another approach (as opposed to countering with the shin block, which I'm not so familiar with applying) is to counter kick simultaniously, while moving inside.

As far as conditioning your own legs, the heavy bag is a good & safe way to start. Once you get used to kicking full power through the bag, you can kick harder things, but build up slowly. I like to practice kicks (including round type kicks with instep and shin) against a log. A wide log with bark, freestanding against wall with a rope holding the top. Its good for conditioning arms, too. After a while it doesnt hurt so much and you can kick it similar to the heavy bag. Also against a freestanding (on base) steel rod. Its really not as bad as it sounds. You can put dit jow on legs afterwards. Also, two man kicking drills, you kick legs together, and practice leg kicks/blocks; have your teacher show you if he or she hasnt already.

Will kicking logs and stuff like that be bad for your bones in old age?

I made a thread about this sort of thing some time ago and I got a mixed response from, people saying that if you don't condition yourself properly you can have disfigured arms and legs etc...Some even said that it's good for your bones in old age..I just don't know what to do with conditioning...so far I'm just doing the routine stuff at the place i learn...like the sand bag and this weird arm thing where you partner up with a person and you sorta bang into your partners arms(hard to describe)...btw i'm still a newbie to MA and wing chun...but I just wanted to know everyones theory on conditioning and it's effects on the body later on in life :)

Also I guess another way of asking the question is, what is the state of muai thai fighters bones later on in life? Do they become crippled?

vingtsunstudent
03-16-2002, 03:57 AM
look at the thai's. all that conditioning & for the most part they're retired at an ealy age.
just to add to the arguement.
to deal with any kick just take half a step foward & you get past the piont of maximum force, it may still hurt a little but should not stop you from pummeling there head, especially seeing as though most thai/kickboxers have a tendency to drop their hands whilst kicking.
there are lots of other things i could say that they do wrong for street encounters but if i tell ya everything you won't learn for yourselves.
vts

Merryprankster
03-17-2002, 06:30 PM
Hmmm

I've never had a thai boxer recommend kicking logs to me, but to each their own.

I will respectfully disagree with vts on the following--the reason that thaiboxers retire so "early" is not because the methods of shin conditioning, etc break down the body, but because the RINGFIGHTS breakdown the body. Training for fighting, day in and day out, and then actually doing it every few weeks is what makes you retire... if WC/VT/WT had a sportfighting circuit as competative as MT in thailand, they would all have similar problems in later life.

vingtsunstudent
03-17-2002, 07:32 PM
duely noted Merryprankster.
i have an uncle who retired in thailand & has friends some of which do have problems later in life with their legs & they say it comes from training when young.
however you make a very valid point.
vts

Akuma
03-18-2002, 03:18 AM
So would you say the moral of the story is don't over train and do let your body recover then train again and your body should be just fine in old age?

Merryprankster
03-18-2002, 08:56 AM
vts--good point. I will agree that heavy training at too young an age probably causes detrimental effects on developing tissues.

Akuma--listening to your body is always a good idea. :)

Sabu
03-18-2002, 01:07 PM
Your body is your temple. And must be respected.

Roy D. Anthony
03-20-2002, 10:32 PM
A swift kick to the groin does the trick. Hope this helps!!!:)