how does shing yi stand up tp pake mae & wing chun

[bamboo]

hello how does xing yi stand up to wing shun and pak mae
i have beeen to many school have we all have seen good pak mae fighters and wing chun fighter but how about shing yi yi have ever seen them in a tournna ments what is the ups and down abot this style expecting a lot of feed back thank u

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Bamboo,

If you're refering to tournament, then you'll be evaluating the styles according to tournament rules which may be biased for / against certain styles.

Looking at the hsitory of Hsing I, it is a style which is battle tested, applied by elite Emperial Guards of china and continue to be part of the cirricuulum to chinese arm forces today. Hsing I belongs in the same league as other effective fighting systems such as Tai Chi, Baji,Piqua, mantis and bagua - as it consist of the same universal factors "the science of it" that makes them effecive.

Whereas, wing chun and pak mae are village styles, never had much of a reputation that is comparable to hsing I

These southern styles operate in a very narrow range of attack and defence - and it is possible to structure a set of rules in a tournament that is optimal for these southern styles.

If you have in mind what these universal factors are, then not only can you evaluate the effectiveness between styles but also same styles - between schools. Thewre are a lot of shonky operators out there who purport to teach hsingI or tai chi for that matter.

If you feel you have understood there factors and can match or defeat the instructor, then most likely there is little more you can learn from that school.

[jon]

Hi Ego
Im bored so im going to respond to your trolls - against my better judgement...

"Hsing I belongs in the same league as other effective fighting systems such as Tai Chi, Baji,Piqua, mantis and bagua - as it consist of the same universal factors "the science of it" that makes them effecive."
* This go's for most good cma at high levels, its EXACTLY that same in Wing Chun and Bak Mei.

"Whereas, wing chun and pak mae are village styles, never had much of a reputation that is comparable to hsing I "
* Wing Chun has ties to Southern Shaolin, Bak Mei has ties to Northen Shaolin and Emai mountain. Nothing village about either of there creation. Xing Yi is so old they cant effectivly trace who invented it! This arguement makes absolutely no sence what so ever.

"These southern styles operate in a very narrow range of attack and defence - and it is possible to structure a set of rules in a tournament that is optimal for these southern styles. "
* Strangley the dead opposite is true, i spar San Shao style using Tai Chi and Bagua, my Hung is rendered almost ineffective by the gloves. Rules are rules they are optimal for whoever has taken the time to addopt them into there training...

"If you have in mind what these universal factors are, then not only can you evaluate the effectiveness between styles but also same styles - between schools."
* Totaly incorrect...
There is NO 'universal factors' to combat that are not painfull obvious ( like dont die ). Its also a impossible to judge others untill you have crossed with them. If Egos statement was the case i would never have found the internal arts at all!
Go meet the instructor train for a while look around research and decide for yourself.

"Thewre are a lot of shonky operators out there who purport to teach hsingI or tai chi for that matter. "
* One of the few parts of Ego's post thats not aimed at causing a stir... This is 100% true, there are many shonky internal instructors. You can usualy tell pretty easily, just be honest with yourself. If you think there is something there for you to learn then stick at it - if you think its suspect then leave.

"If you feel you have understood there factors and can match or defeat the instructor, then most likely there is little more you can learn from that school."
* Good one Ego, why actualy cross hands when you can just watch from a safe distance and make up your own prejudice mind.

bamboo
You wont see many internal masters competing in forms competions as the forms are simply not fast and flashy enough to please a crowd. Its also harder for the crowd to judge internal force and body mechanics. Hence they may not understand why the old man who moved very slowly and relaxed beat the young guy who swung his fists around a lot and yelled loudly.
Xing Yi is an excerlent combat art (as are WC and BM ) its strait forward no nonsence and brutal.
It just doesnt exactly LOOK spectacular, hence you wont see it displayed as much... Which bites the big one imho:(

[vingtsunstudent]

well, when i saw him ask how do they stand up to wing chun & pak mei, i was going to say by straightening the legs.
but quite simply i don't know, except this be it wing chun, pak mei,
hsing-i, tae kwon do or even mouth boxing, they will be as aggressive or affective as you make them, it's the hard yards that you put in that count.
vts

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

"Hi Ego Im bored so im going to respond to your trolls - against my better judgement..."

Since you've taken the time how could I simply ignore you.

"This go's for most good cma at high levels, its EXACTLY that same in Wing Chun and Bak Mei."

Unfortunately they don't. These styles stay at a faily simplistic level because they didn't have the combat exposure.

"Wing Chun has ties to Southern Shaolin, Bak Mei has ties to Northen Shaolin and Emai mountain. Nothing village about either of there creation. Xing Yi is so old they cant effectivly trace who invented it! This arguement makes absolutely no sence what so ever."

One has to be quite careful about styles claiming to be associated with Shaolin. This association had been for more of a marketing gimick in the past because there was a perception of the "greatness of shaolin" perpertuated by kung fu pop culture. Many people have seen shaolin monks defeating enemy soldiers in the movies compared with the actual history of shaolin monks. I must say, it worked for many styles and otherwise they may not be a popular today. But ultimately, they are village styles -that's it.

Hsing I probably had the foundation in long fist, shares similar concepts to the other styles so mentioned. One would be safe to say they were all co-developed around the same time. Not that practical to pin down the person or groups of persons who formulated the style has it is to know of its fighting reputation even in the arm forces today.

"Strangley the dead opposite is true, i spar San Shao style using Tai Chi and Bagua, my Hung is rendered almost ineffective by the gloves."

Firstly, Hung Gar is not much of a style compared to the other two. Gloves cause some restrictions but thoese northen styles allow you to use your arms to work in close and trap.

"Rules are rules they are optimal for whoever has taken the time to addopt them into there training..."

I imagine what you're saying is not to get into a boxing match with a boxer under boxing rules. That would cut out pretty much all your techniques in TC or Bagua. The boxer would have the upper hand.

"Totaly incorrect... There is NO 'universal factors' to combat that are not painfull obvious ( like dont die ). Its also a impossible to judge others untill you have crossed with them."

It can't be obvious especially most schools i've been to disregard key fundamentals. But i agree with your second point - best way to test one's styles.

"Good one Ego, why actualy cross hands when you can just watch from a safe distance and make up your own prejudice mind."

You don't know until you actually cross hands. Safe distance???? it's not like the other person will kill you or vice versa. It's only hand to hand and the object to gauge one and other's system. There's nothing personal.

[jon]

Hi Ego
"Since you've taken the time how could I simply ignore you."
* A gentleman and a scholar, well almost ;)

"Unfortunately they don't. These styles stay at a faily simplistic level because they didn't have the combat exposure. "
* Yeah ive noticed the simplicty of southern styles in comparison with the total sophisticaion in Bagua and Tai Chi.
I think ill go and practice the single form in each of my internals now actualy:rolleyes:

"One has to be quite careful about styles claiming to be associated with Shaolin."
*Agreed but your claiming that Bak Mei and Wing Chun are village styles, im claiming they where created in places VERY different to a village.

"Many people have seen shaolin monks defeating enemy soldiers in the movies compared with the actual history of shaolin monks."
* Can you tell us more about the 'actual history of shaolin monks'? I know that its crowded in mystery but obviously you have a pure transmission. Please show me the light, i was always under the impression it was a buddisht temple where (among other things) people studied kung fu. Obviously im mistaken?

"But ultimately, they are village styles -that's it."
* Can you please clarify this by refering to actual cases of either Wing Chun or Bak Mei having its development within villages?
As far as i know both arts are full of famous figures?

"Hsing I probably had the foundation in long fist, shares similar concepts to the other styles so mentioned. One would be safe to say they were all co-developed around the same time. Not that practical to pin down the person or groups of persons who formulated the style has it is to know of its fighting reputation even in the arm forces today. "
*Agreed...
Now how do you get around the fact Wing Chun is often taught in military settings and Bak Mei's Chung Lai Chun was famous for his teaching of the armed forces in Southern China?

"Firstly, Hung Gar is not much of a style compared to the other two."
* I would tend to disagree with you here, infact im living proof...
I havent let go of practicing my Hung but im training in the internals.

"Gloves cause some restrictions but thoese northen styles allow you to use your arms to work in close and trap. "
*Its more becouse Bagua and Tai Chi are both bigger on throws and footwork. Hung is a very handed style and does not lend itself well to ring fighting. Hung is not a style i can 'play' with but Tai Chi and Bagua are quite easily addapted in terms of concept.

"I imagine what you're saying is not to get into a boxing match with a boxer under boxing rules. That would cut out pretty much all your techniques in TC or Bagua. The boxer would have the upper hand."
* Well its not exactly what i said but i wont disagree with your assesment.

"It can't be obvious especially most schools i've been to disregard key fundamentals. "
* You should go back and teach them a lesson... How DARE THEY!!

"You don't know until you actually cross hands. Safe distance???? it's not like the other person will kill you or vice versa. It's only hand to hand and the object to gauge one and other's system. There's nothing personal."
* Yeah im gonna have to agree with you again.


This has not exactly been a riviting debate...
If we are gonna do this we need to actualy argue about something worth while...

Whats more important fast active footwork or strong stable root?
To put it in classical terms.
Is it better to be...
Heavy as a mountain.
Or
Light as a feather?

Which is more applicable to combat and why?

[vingtsunstudent]

Unfortunately they don't. These styles stay at a faily simplistic level because they didn't have the combat exposure.

It can't be obvious especially most schools i've been to disregard key fundamentals. But i agree with your second point - best way to test one's styles.

Firstly, Hung Gar is not much of a style compared to the other two

so basically what you're saying is that your a fukwit with limited knowledge of these styles as a whole(except for the schools you have seen) who feels they every right to put them down with all 2 cents worth of your knowledge.
wow, intelligence from a higher source or what.

how about you explain wing chun to me, seeing as though you know so much about it. tell me everything you know & then we'll see if you have any right to open your mouth.
my bet is you mention centreline, chain punching maybe chi sao & not much more.(come on give me some details)
how about the system you practice, could you please tell me why it must be vastly superior.
vts

[jon]

VTS
Your signiture rocks:D

[vingtsunstudent]

thanx bud
vts

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

vingtuen,

I suppose you're the brainiac who figures it all out from a safe distance. That's intellegence for you!

There really isn't much to wing chun. When I had sparred with them, they didn't seem to get any techniques out - or at least any worth mentioning. Who cares about semetics.

[vingtsunstudent]

There really isn't much to wing chun. When I had sparred with them, they didn't seem to get any techniques out - or at least any worth mentioning. Who cares about semetics.

just as i thought, no knowledge of the style in question, just dribble coming out the mouth of a fool.
vts

[Tiger on Duty]

Hi ego
I practice pak mei, chen tai chi chuan and san shou.
Pak mei is no village style if u found out what pak mei means u would find it means white eyebrow, how did it get this name? Why from its founder monk pak mei dao ren, gee i guess he was from a shaolin village then huh for your information monk pak mei was one of the 5 shaolin elders from the southern temple, it is based on internal and external principles which all tai chi , bagua and yes hsing yi all have it shares many similiarites with hsing yi but is not as old only 300-350 yrs old monk pak mei was famous why u ask because he could fight and real well, he killed one of the founders of hung gar hung hei kuen, fong sai yuk, and killed the abbot of the southern shaolin temple( im not saying he was a nice guy or a bad guy) and the style is a pressure point and vital points style created for fast killing and maiming techniques so u wont see its good side in competitions will u???? no in fact pak mei is crap in competitions because they have rules no striking groin,neck,backneck,temples,throat,solar plexus etc and u have to wear gloves which totally screws up pak mei as all i like to do is strike where it hurts which u certainly cannot do in competitions, which is why i do san shou and chen tai chi to fill in the sparring gaps when i dont want to kill someone.
Hope that has been useful ego. By the way u need to do more research.:)


hsing yi is a very old powerful and well proven style thats only real weakness is that it is a very linear style, front, back and side to side. Thats why hsing yi and bagua are often learnt together so u have straight hsing yi and the circles of bagua a very awesome combo.

[jon]

Tiger on Duty

"he killed one of the founders of hung gar hung hei kuen, fong sai yuk, and killed the abbot of the southern shaolin temple"
* Bak Mei was a brilliant fighter and was certainly the death sentence of many a southern shaolin rebel. However im afraid Hung Hei Gwun died in his late 80s and although there is rumour he did at one point fight with Bak Mei is only a legend.
In the version i heard Bak Mei was killed by Hung Hei Gwuns son.
In another version i heard they both never met and Bak Mei was simply a very good fighter and a priest in Emei mountain. In yet another i heard a ridiculous story about all five elders fighting and all fighting Bak Mei with the ententual winner being Ng Mei:rolleyes:
Really its all blantet legend and is best of kept that way, believe what you wish if it makes you happy but try to avoid stating that my kf ancestors where killed in duels when there is no proof:D

[TIger Hand]

I can see EGGO the "BUTHEAD" is at it again......

We all heard it before "BUTHEAD".......

force multiplying theory?-

yet the Imperial Army lost nearly every major conflict since it's unification.......so much for that.

Shingyi used by the army EXCLUSIVELY?-

Hmmmmmm.......I think I mentioned that Cheung La Chun (bak mei) taught at Wong Po (CENTRAL MILITARY ACADEMY OF KUOMINTANG). I know you have trouble reading that is why i bold.

You sparred Wing Chun people...........?????? HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA.....................Was that with or without your wheelchair?

Give it a rest FOOL, at least change your nick to avoid embarrasment.

[fiercest tiger]

you are a village idiot!

B'gua never won any tourneys here in sydney in the 80's, they all got beaten by ykm,clf, lhbf everytime. now dont say because of the gloves and rules because that i a crock of sh!t, if it was without the gloves then they wouldnt be here...period!

no offence jon, just stating that simplicity is and can be the way. wingchun and bak mei even hung gar is a advance fighting system, what does hsing i have that these dont? five elements hung gar and bak mei, dont know about wingchun here. animals and yin and yang theories also.
They all contain chi kung and strength that hsing i produces too.

you should take a look at your post and rethink the bullsh!T you talk about.

jee shim was killed by bak mei, he broke his neck.

later guys

FT

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Fiercetiger

You could have mistaken Wu Shu for ba Gua. I'm not familiar with the schools in sydney or the tournament rules there.

Hung Gar has plenty of forms and movement butits not integrated as such. very stiff. Wing Chun and pak mae are similar - very stiff. YKM has a fixation with animals and ying yang theory - very stiff. If its less stiff it make make good wu shu.

[fiercest tiger]

hsing i also looks stiff, as well as baji, piqua etc

all these styles(southern) arent stiff, maybe to a beginner, but never to a higher level practitioner.

i think you are wrong on this!!

[jon]

"B'gua never won any tourneys here in sydney in the 80's"

"wingchun and bak mei even hung gar is a advance fighting system, what does hsing i have that these dont?"

"jee shim was killed by bak mei, he broke his neck"

"hsing i also looks stiff, as well as baji, piqua etc "


OMG! FT is becoming a troll

:p :eek: :confused: :D

[fiercest tiger]

never a troll, just stating what i know and have seen!

hows your training going? chinese gardens is a nice tranquil place.:)

[jon]

fiercest tiger
Im just picking fun - dont mind me. Im trying to become more light hearted:D Or was that thick skinned, i can never remember...

Training is going great as always as has been stepping up a few notches of late as we have a big dinner performance on Monday night which im also performing Bagua and a tiny bit of silly showy practical stuff.
Also started up the Tai Chi with him as well, he certainly knows his stuff i will give him that;)

Chinese gardens rocks, i look forward to going there everyday.
Speaking of which i need to get to sleep so i can wake up to be there tommorow :)

How is your school going, did you do many demonstrations over the Chinese new years?

[Buby]

"YKM has a fixation with animals and ying yang theory - very stiff." - I got your YKM stiffy right here.

Btw, I'm still waiting for you to tell me where is the YKM school in Jeresy. Well eggo!

Buby

[TIger Hand]

I'm still waiting for him to tell me how he sparred Wing Chun people while he is in a WHEELCHAIR

OHH........EGO the "BUTHEAD".................????????........Did you know Chueng Lai Chun taught at Wong Po? CENTRAL MILITARY ACADEMY

Where was your "gay a$$ multiplying northern" style?

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Fiercetiger:

Hsing I isn't stiff, very fluid like the styles from that time period and region in china.

Whereas wing chun just tries to build hand speed by sacrificing alot of power. little punches doing it square on... better of doing boxing or kick boxing.

hung gar looks like karate but moves ever so slowly. this is partly due to the extremely low horse stances which makes the syle very immobile. But they train alot in chi kung - supposed to anyway to take hits.

maybe its just that i had come across some raw beginners because they try to fight like kick boxers - with the emphasis on the word try.

tigerhand:

I haven't always been in a wheel chair. Got to hand it to you tiger!

[vingtsunstudent]

once again you have shown your basic knowledge of wing chun & once again you have shown you know nothing.
would you please take that dik out of your mouth & think before you speak.
vts

[yutyeesam]

Interesting discussion about style comparisons. Did any of you read Phil's article, "Fight the Person, Not the Style"? I think it says it all.

I think that these arts, such as Hsing I, Ving Tsun, Pek Mei, whatever, get you to the same island, you just take different boats (as my sihing would tell me). Any comparison, it seems, is too biased because it assumes that the style accounts for the attributes of the individual.

Just a thought.

Peace,
123

[fa_jing]

Wing Chun was an underground revolutionary style that developed on the Red Junks. It was used for assassination of Manchurian officials at close quarters. The wooden dummy sets clearly show the shaolin origens. The pole set shows the period of development on the boats, as the long pole was an available weapon. It is based on clear principles and short power.

The Navy Seals were training in WC with Moy Yat down in Virginia Beach last I heard. Guess they've all switched to Xing-Yi now that Goktimus has clarified things.

Northern styles are way cool, too!! Whatever floats your Junk!

-FJ

[fiercest tiger]

You dont know what you are talking about, stick to your northern arts thread.:D

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

fa-jing

The revolutionarist would be crazy to think that wing chun could be used against the manchu soldiers. The style is only good for simple self defence at a medium range. No. grappling involved, can't be considered a close range style. Standing square on and doing little punches has much less power than a boxer. It is just a very hopeless style.

Hung gar was developed on the red junks i agree. Due to the lack of head room on those boats, they adopted a very low stance, otherwise they'll bump their heads on the ceiling above. Because of the trubulance and waves on the oceans, hung gar practitioners couldn't move around much - will get sea sick. so then they stood fast in those low stances to practice punches. They couldn't use real weapons but rather trained with wu shu type hollow swords or those blades as thin as a leaf. This is because an accident with a solid weapon could puncture the hull of the vessel and drown all the occupants on board.

[dezhen2001]

:D

have you ever been hit by someone who studies Wing Chun and knows how to punch properly? Smarts a little.... totally different feeling than when a boxer punches.

I like your account of history/development of Southern Styles though ego :)

david

[raving_limerick]

<<They couldn't use real weapons but rather trained with wu shu type hollow swords or those blades as thin as a leaf. This is because an accident with a solid weapon could puncture the hull of the vessel and drown all the occupants on board.>>


yeah, cause we ALL know that the Chinese made boats out of rice paper..:rolleyes: Not to step on any toes, but that sounds like the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Boats were made of wooden hulls, and would have to be fairly sturdy to withstand the rigors of maritime travel. If you ever go to Baltimore, check out the clipper ship in the inner harbor-- you'd have to fire a cannon at the floor to break it. While the junks may have not been as thick as a 19th century clipper ship, they were fairly sturdy boats, easily capable of withstanding accidental blows from swords and knives. As to whether or not they actually trained weapons on the ship, I dunno, but I really don't see any reason why they wouldn't-- if the ship proved to be too cramped, they could always practice when ashore.

[fa_jing]

Strange. I thought the square-on stance was only for practice or for a split second at the end of a punch with the rear hand. Then again, what do I know, I'm just a Wing Chun practioner, not an expert observer like Maximus.

-FJ

[TIger Hand]

Wing chun has no power?.................hmmmmm.......hey Ego, don't let Rolling_hand hear you say that!

[PlasticSquirrel]

we wasted every one of ego's arguments on an earlier thread. he is a troll, plain and simple. he should be banned from this board.

he is just a paraplegic little b*tch who got his as* kicked when he practiced clf, if i remember correctly. probably due to his ****iness, he wound up in a wheelchair.

even though i, as a xingyiquan practitioner, backed up southern styles with real knowledge (rather than faulty logic and irrelevent analogies), he kept trolling.

just ignore him. he acts like a little kid, trying to impress anyone who is naive enough to listen to him.

you are an idiot, ego. this is easily-seen. you should leave. no one wants you to be here, and you have nothing to offer anyone except your hateful ramblings.

p.s. we also found his website, on which are pictures of transformers toys and him practicing stances (which are very faulty and weak -- no power). he goes by another name, goktimus.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

raving_limerick

The Chinese weren't expert boat builders like the great europeans. Chinese never had an effective sea faring army - navy in its entire history.

There wasn't enough space on those junks (why do you think they're called junks - maybe its because they're poorly built) so the wing chun punches became shorter and shorter. one small push, they'll fall over as a result of the turbulence in the waters. As a result they never developed proper power and what little power they had - it was overated.

As for training with real weapons on the boats - it was a dangerous prospect as they risk hull breach of sorts. Not to mention accedentally tearing theirv sails or something. The southern lot were previously farmers with little experience in the oceans.

wasn't practical for the red boat rebels to train on shore. Many who tried were discovered by small detechments of government troops and wiped out.

Instead they used their kung fu for entertainment purposes such as the chinese opera which later developed into kung fu flicks we see today. Kung fu pop culture which bears little resemblence to real fighting can be traced back to the southern source.

[jon]

Ive compleatly changed my mind....
Ego you ROCK :D
Your just to darn entertaining for words, if only you and Ralek could get together - oh the fun you would both have.

The weird part is...
We are laughing at you.
You are laughing at us.
Who is laughing loudest and does it really matter anyway;)

[PlasticSquirrel]

alright, goktimus, i'm feeling argumentative. for the sake of everyone else, though, i will meet your reply so others don't have to.

kung fu pop culture? i assume that you are referring to what most people call wushu. you should know, then, that wushu is mostly northern styles, and that changquan and it's weapon forms were the first wushu forms to be put together for prc wushu.

training on boats? please. no one is that stupid as to spend most of their time training on a boat. several styles were developed to be able to be stable enough to accomodate boat fighting, but this is natural adaptation. you are taking the boat-fighting thing to extremes, and flat-out making things up. before a few years ago, chinese opera and their boats were rarely heard of. recently, though, articles have been written, and now all of a sudden people are using boat fighting as an explanation for every stance variation and technique in southern styles. this is sad.

to get back to the foundation of modern wushu and pop-culture kung fu, you should realize that wing chun kuen is nothing like anything practiced for the chinese opera. anything that was developed to be stable enough to be able to accomodate boat fighting would not be entertaining enough for chinese opera. chinese opera styles were just exaggerated traditional forms, with added acrobatic movements, similar to prc wushu.

as i mentioned earlier, ego, you need to give examples to justify your explanation of the "source of pop culture kung fu" as coming from the south. pop culture kung fu is nothing more than wushu, and that originally had northern origins from the northern capital, and made from northern changquan. if your definition of "pop culture kung fu" is something different, then you needed to define it for us, as i have never heard of that term used before. whether it is or not is irrelevent to the fact that you need to back up obscure comments like the one in your last post.

as for chinese boats, the chinese needed to at least have decent boats. this is something that develops naturally when you are in an environment like southern china. to think that all boats would be poor and primitive is ignorant. it is true that the chinese never had a great navy or army, but boats were always considered to be used primarily for merchants, and were never very large (or well-made, if they were -- an undeveloped area).

"the southern lot" you refer to seems to be quite the stereotype. stupid, useless, sweaty farmers with nothing to offer the rest of the world, no doubt? this "southern lot" was used to marshes and water-ways, and used small boats very often for business. you should at least give "the southern lot" a little credit for being able to meet the basic needs of their societies and environments. the south may have been more rural as a whole, but it was a very interesting place where many great styles came about from the temples there.

[NorthernMantis]

Ego what the heck is your problem, man? Were you beaten up by southern styilst or what? Why so much bitterness when it comes to southern kungfu?

I have a friend that practices 7* mantis,plum flower mantis, and wing chun and he doesn't think anything about it.

Wanna know something Goktimus? I saw your site and your stances were horrible and off balance. All this time talking about how northern styles are superior and your don't even have a solidfoundation.

[NorthernMantis]

Ego what the heck is your problem, man? Were you beaten up by southern styilst or what? Why so much bitterness when it comes to southern kungfu?

I have a friend that practices 7* mantis,plum flower mantis, and wing chun and he doesn't think anything about it.

Wanna know something Goktimus? I saw your site and your stances were horrible and off balance. All this time talking about how northern styles are superior and your don't even have a solid foundation.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Plastic squirrel

I'm not goktimus. Chinese pop culture that we see today are extensions of the opera acts performed on those red junks. During those performences the actors dress up in colorful and elaboratre costumes much like the way alot of southern kuing fu schools dress their students in while training. This becomes apparent during chinese new year when southern schools bring out the full works- the dancing lion, gongs, drums and masks.

I agree it woulkd be stupid to spend all of one's life on a boat without coming to shore. But they had no choisce given that they were hunted by government troops- had to stay on the boat to practice. During the times when they did come to shore - it was to put on a performances to prevent the troops from moving against them. The performances served the purpose of providing entertainment to the villiages which provided a distraction to the harsh realities of life and oppression by the military. In doing so, the chinese opera reduced the extent or frequencty of up rising by the villiages. The government knew that and their opera performances were tolerated. However, they would all be nabbed if kung fu was seen to be practiced on shore.

It thus became a unwritten code that kung fu could only be practiced on the junks and their role in society meant that their kung fu was only for performance purpose. The giverment knew that real weapons would not be used otherwise accidents on the stage would have meant the death of an actor or two. Not to mention the occasional hull breech should a broadsword slice through the side of the hull - drowing all occupants inside.

I've also seen gotktimus website- it however is not mine!

[TIger Hand]

You wanna see Ego's website, go to the Wheelchair Olympics site.

[americandesi75]

Let's cap this thread off. The discussion has become useless and counter productive.

Some people thrive off of negative attention. Don't give them the satisfaction of giving yours.

Peace,
amdes

[fiercest tiger]

So WHERE THE F@CK DID LION DANCING COME FROM? FROM THE NORTH ALSO BAK SI NORTHERN LION, AND DRAGON DANCING TOO!

YOUR A SMUTT!

HERE'S A TIP FRPM FT...
IT HELPS IF YOU READ UP ON YOUR KNOWLEDGE BEFORE TROLLING, SO YOU DONT LOOK LIKE A FOOL.:rolleyes:

DO YOU KNOW THE HISTORY OF THE LION DANCE AND WHERE IT ORIGINATED FROM?

[guohuen]

The Chinese never had a Navy? Did you learn history from Marvel comic books or what? Perhaps they swam to central and south america.

[Ao Qin]

Why is everyone so hostile to Ego? I find him (and the reactions he evokes) enormously entertaining - and I don't even have to pay for the ticket!

He is one of our special Kungfu Online "Contraires", and is here to teach us not to take ourselves too seriously - keep up the good work Ego!:)

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

fiercetiger

it is sad isn't it. throughout history, the south has attempted to copy the northern culture. Lion dancing, dragon dancing etc. and to be fooled in thinking that it is part of the fighting system. And in doing so, the southerners also attempted to copy the northern arts only to end up with something, stiff and impractical, practiced by irrate little sh1ts like fiercetiger who trains down-under.

Ao Qin

I hope in person they're alot nicer. It's probably because when it comes to kung fu, they talk warrior talk. Everthing is black or white, life or death, killed or be killed. Ever notice in other posts, they try to be extra polite then normal speak. When ever a wannabe kung fu practitioner speaks to another, they tread on thin ice. A wrong move or a misunderstood gesture risk the unleashing of chi energy - and definately more dicey then the middle east peace talks. This is kung fu speak for you, where masters speak in poor english, where masters withhold secrets, where deciples cause trouble. The odd revenge, personal challenge, flings with the si moe or si sook or si die or si kung or whatever. It's all been done before by Shaw brothers and for those who ain't got enough or a wannabe Director - they come to this forum to take it out on poor ole ego maximus.

[fiercest tiger]

so now u know that lion dance started in the north too, and since when does the southerners use the techniques from that for fighting c@cksucker?

:rolleyes: your an idiot, thats all i can say!!

[Rolling_Hand]

Cha Cha mumbo!!!

Are you stepping on someone's toes again?

[CLOUD ONE]

That's what tiggers do best- bouncy bouncy on top of ego's head

[joedoe]

Guys, I don't know why you let Ego get you so worked up. I just read his posts and have a good laugh - he is so full of sh!t. He is so obviously a troll, so why continue to feed him?

Besides, if you've ever seen his website, you've just gotta laugh :D

If that fails, there is always the ignore button :)

[vingtsunstudent]

yep, i knew i was at the zoo when i done seen that sign a ways back, you know the one-
'' DON'T FEED THE ANIMALS ''

oops, sorry bad acid
it was the one that said-
'' BEWARE OF TROLLS ''
vts

[fiercest tiger]

Good to see you back my brother!

acid jee man i think im getting some flash backs, anyone for smilies?? hahahaha

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Fiercetiger,

Even your school teaches lion dancing as part of the training program. If you think that it has nothing to do with kung fu, then why is it in the program?

Given that it is in the program and you have agreed that it has nothing to do with fighting, when kung fu is all about fighting then it shows that your knowlege of kung fu is as much as that of a common house cat about being a tiger, let alone a fierce one.

[GreyMystik]

don't be a fool, there are technical schools that teach nothing but skills (many of the various "reality" schools do this) and there are colleges that are for the whole experience. i think FT's school is more for the latter. will learning Lion Dance teach you how to punch better? perhaps not. will learning to call your teacher 'sifu' have a direct result on your Sei Ping Ma? not likely. will it teach you culture, background, enrich your experience and the virtue of Mo Duk?
i'll leave that to the reader to decide. i think it does, and that's just for starters. ;)

[feldor]

You should be careful insulting people you don't know anything about....... :rolleyes:

You should also take time to learn more about the purpose of Lion Dancing as well as not take what people say out of context.

FT is a fierce Tiger indeed.....

[Buby]

Eggo - "when kung fu is all about fighting then it shows that your knowlege of kung fu is as much as that of a common house cat about being a tiger, let alone a fierce one." - You're so right! My sifu doesn't know jack about KF or fighting, but boy can he farm. :rolleyes: Being that we are a farmers art and what have you.:p

So ego wheres this YKM school in Jerz? Do you have students?

Buby
YKM Gangsta

[feldor]

Well spoken Bro! Us Farmers jus' plow da fields.......and people.

Where's my Hoe......?????? :D ah, forget it, I'll just use my claws.......



L8r Gangsta!

Word! Yau Kung Mun Fueva! :cool:

[Buby]

"Well spoken Bro! Us Farmers jus' plow da fields.......and people." - Namean(know what i mean - it's that BK lingo)


"Where's my Hoe......??????" - Give him some time. I'm sure ego will pop up.:D

Take care bro,

Buby:)

[fiercest tiger]

Buby, Feldor

HAHAHAHA I got cha back my brothers. respect....:D


Ego,

ykm has a long tradition in lion and dragon dancing, and yes it helps with kung fu to a degree.

[TIger Hand]

Ego is a disgruntled "crippled" fool. I (we) all disproved his BS theories in another thread.

When confronted with counterpoints in which he cannot dispute he just ignores them, and goes back to reiterating his BS theories.

Ego wishes he can do lion dancing.

[Yum Cha]

My little sister spent her short and tortured life in a wheelchair. I hope you get to find out what it is like one day.

[Pak Mei student]

Hey! guys.

There is cliche in English.

U don't have to respect his BS, but You have to respect him as a person. Don't take it personal level guys.

[fiercest tiger]

:o

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

"don't be a fool, there are technical schools that teach nothing but skills (many of the various "reality" schools do this) and there are colleges that are for the whole experience. i think FT's school is more for the latter. will learning Lion Dance teach you how to punch better? perhaps not. will learning to call your teacher 'sifu' have a direct result on your Sei Ping Ma? not likely. will it teach you culture, background, enrich your experience and the virtue of Mo Duk?" - Greymystic

"ykm has a long tradition in lion and dragon dancing, and yes it helps with kung fu to a degree." Fiercetiger

So what is it, does it or does it (lion dancing) not help with kung fu. This is so shameful when students of the same style can't stand up to cross - examination. So who is correct Greymystic or Fiercetiger.

In any case, Greymystic, there are other cultural centres that teach you all you want ot know about chinese culture and specialize in that! Why dilute your learning in kung fu class. Tell me this, does a physics class require its students to recite passages from Shakespear? Would yo usay that it is inapporpriate?
If you agree (which I think you have little choice) then why does a self defence class teach you how to dance? Does a cha cha class teach you how to fight?

if not, shouldn't old traditions be challenged such as to be consistent woth modern society? Ask your sifu.

[fiercest tiger]

ego, are you tired of talking about this topic?

you know you are right so leave it man! :D

lets talk about something else like where you train?;)

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Fiercetiger

stop taunting me! My body's crippled from the accident. I don't train kung fu anymore.

[jon]

"So what is it, does it or does it (lion dancing) not help with kung fu."
* Yes!

There that was easy, now wait till you hear my brilliant reason;)
Your legs get stronger from the stances, your footwork improves due to the constant movement. Your arm strength and grip improve due swinging around a heavy lion head.
You would never guess it but these same attributes are all usefull skills in kung fu.
Now wait for the really great part about lion dancing...
You get to dress up as a big funky lion then jump around to a drum for ages before dying in a pool of your own sweat.
Im soooooooo looking forward to doing some more of it:D

[vingtsunstudent]

seems your mind & mouth were crippled too.
vts

[CLOUD ONE]

Ego-Since the accident I don't train kung Fu anymore.

Poor excuse, I take it you still have the use of part of your body.
You still have your mind and spirit so why give up so easy?

Maybe you could create your own style?

[vingtsunstudent]

yeh, i'm sure rich mooney has some quality stuff you could use, besides that i'm sure he'd be glad to have you as a friend & living in laa laa land with him.
hey i know, maybe you could marry him & get him to project his chi balls at us for making fun of the crippled boy.
how does shing yi stand up to pak mei & wing chun?
by getting up out of the chair, oh i'm sorry, you wouldn't know that cause you can't do it.
i can't wait for the day when your computer becomes crippled & we no longer have to here you rave on with absolute dribble.
vts

to everyone else, yes, i know i'm gonna burn in hell for that, but:p

[GreyMystik]

stop tryin to split me and FT, it won't happen. firstly his post questioned when the southern stylists used the lion dance techniques for fighting, not gungfu, so his statement does not contradict mine at all. there is more to gungfu than self-defense, so i completely disagree with your statement.
physics students are not required to read shakespeare IN PHYSICS CLASS , but english literature (or substitute language of choice) is a part of schools that teach the whole curriculum, so that is how your analogy fits in. if you didn't learn how to communicate, your physics study won't be real useful because you won't comprehend and be able to play by the game rules, i.e. symbolic reasoning. therefore english study will likely benefit your physics study in other ways, just like lion dance may benefit your self-defense in other ways.
gungfu does not translate to 'self defense class', you should know this. ;)

oh and fyi FT and i are not students of the same style... so there goes that reasoning. :rolleyes:

[illusionfist]

Ego is just mad cuz he can't lion dance. Imagine the head having wheels for feet!!! BWAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

Besides we're just peasants anyway.

[fiercest tiger]

i AGREE with jon on the lion dance training, also dont worry greymystic we know each other for this to start sh!t.

:D

ego,
there are a few wheel chair martial artist that are teachers, so dont give up. seriously dont give up!!:(

[TIger Hand]

Yum Cha-

Go and Yum some Cha, take it easy.

I didn't say a word about your unfortunate sister.

[jon]

TIger Hand
Dude normaly i wouldnt bother posting but its a bit unfair for Yum Cha to now have to point this out...
For a start if im not mistaken your a Bak Mei student yourself? If thats the case then YC is your senior and i hope you dont refer to your sihings in class in the same disrespectful way.

"I didn't say a word about your unfortunate sister."
* The point of his post is one i have also made to you before...
Picking on ego is no problem but bear one thing in mind, its highly likely he is NOT in a wheelchair and is simply saying that. This is the internet and not everyone tells the whole truth;) That being the case your picking on the wheelchair bound is actualy quite offensive to anyone who either IS in a wheelchair or knows someone who is.
Please think a little about what your posting, you can rebut ego without offending the millions of martial artists accross the globe who do an ammazing job of continuing on dispite there predicament.
I know some very knowledgeable artists on this very message board who really are wheelchair bound and who practice with the full heart and soul. I PRAY that they dont have this misfortune to read this particular thread...

[TIger Hand]

Jon-

Point well made. Certainly i do not want to offend anyone who had some misfortune.

But, if you can see from the previous few post I am not the only one who is poking at ego's "limp a$$".

Also, just because i practice bak mei, Yum Cha is automatically my senior? Why is that?

[jon]

TIger Hand

"if you can see from the previous few post I am not the only one who is poking at ego's "limp a$$"."
* As i say go for your life on ego, heck i do:D Im just saying to try and avoid offending others in the process;)

"Also, just because i practice bak mei, Yum Cha is automatically my senior? Why is that?"
* This is totaly up to yourself...
For me i view every practioner of my own arts who have studied for longer to be a senior, after all we are just one extended family. As such i will always show face to a senior even if i dont directly agree with what there saying. I do the same thing in class and i also try to do it online. I will disagree but i will be carefull to do it in a respectfull way.
In my opinion it just shows good moral and it also gives the art a good public face with the apperence of members all having mutual respect for one another.
As i say its not vital and its up to you to follow or not but for me i would watch how i speak to seniors.

Yum Cha to my knowledge is quite respected and liked there is no need for you to be brash with him. Correct me if im wrong but i think Yum Cha may even teach which most definately makes him a senior.

Not a personal thing dude i like many of your posts and find them funny, just asking you watch a little what you say occasional :)
Gets me in trouble constantly as well.

[TIger Hand]

jon-

Iam not being brash with Yum Cha, nor did i intend any such meaning.

Again, how do you automatically assume Yum Cha studied longer than me?

Yum Cha teaches....so?

Their are people who teach who shouldn't be teaching, and their are people who should be teaching, that aren't.

Of course, not to say that Yum Cha is one of the ones who shouldn't be, no disrespect to Yum Cha.

[Pak Mei student]

Guys, ignore this guy call sui fui

This guy pretend to be chinese by speaking few hakka. He is one of the chinese american doesn't read chinese. (which is usual in America)
Look at how he write english chinese "big brother",

"diy low"

Should I teach you?

There is no official chinese-english write like that.
Sui Fuw. I wonder who are u. You claim to be hakka. You can't read chinese. You can't write english chinese!
Can you write your own name in english chinese?

I doubt it.

Mind you, I study english chinese for sometime. I still don't understand it. So, Are you chinese? Can you speak mandarin? Can you write chinese?

Do you know where is Xi'amen?
(this is very easy official chinese english)

what about Xue' ?
(This is very easy official chinese english)

Do you know where is Hakka come from? Why people are calling themselves hakka?

"compassion?cloud clearly expresses this and make a fine poit,however does ego learn?yummy?or his sister?

i know many that are in wheelchairs,but great men are measured in what they "acheive or do"and not what they" think".
but as a begginer what do i know?where everyone is my senior or should i not speak???eh...jon

p.s i treat ego as a person not less b/c he's in a wheelchair.

life is..........? how do accept the cards that are delt to us???
i know many that are in wheelchairs,but great men are measured in what they "acheive or do"and not what they" think".
but as a begginer what do i know?where everyone is my senior or should i not speak???eh...jon"

Wow.
You words really weights. I should listen to you!
I am the same person on the net as in real life. I may be a little different on the net. However, I don't utter BS. When I promise something. I will deliver to the very end. That way I get people to trust me.
Moreover, I won't utter something that don't fit my qualification.
Such as these words, the great ones like mother teresa only can qualify to speak like this, because she put her efforts into it. It matches her.

Well. I have enough fun playing with this children called sui fuw.
He is probably playing with GI Joe. Pretending he is a chinese. He can't even write chinese english. He put it up on the net.

Am I right? You don't know how to write chinese english?
You know. I really have enough good laugh for your chinese english.:-)


[/B][/QUOTE]

[jon]

sui-fuw
"where everyone is my senior or should i not speak???eh...jon "
* Dont play with my words sui-fuw, you know me better than that i think - even if only in text;)
My point was to not be disrepectfull towards others of the same system. Not everyone will do as i do and i dont expect them to, doesnt mean i cant have my say when i see a point i wish to make. Still i do try and keep my points respectfull particualy when dealing with those who are open about who they are and what they represent.
You and I have different goals here sui-fuw but do we not still both enjoy what we do?
Your hands may be normaly closed but does that mean that those who are usualy open are automaticaly doing the wrong thing?


BTW I give you respect do i not?
Maybe i view you as senior or maybe i view everyone as equals but give respect to those who have already walked my path before me. I never know wether im coming or going, perhaps its better that way.

I just follow your force sui-fuw, just try not to tire to early
:D

[Yum Cha]

Golly, such a simple troll actually turned this into an interesting thread.

My sister is fit and dandy. My point, well carried by Jon in his so terribly consciencious manner, is that the anonymity doesn't excuse you for bad taste, and within yourself, you know that's true.

Pay your money and take your chances.

...now where's my tea.

By the way,

I do have a handicapped nephew with basically no arms who fights able bodied opponents in Tae Kwon Do. He made it to state level for 16 year old. Arts are so called because we have to put ourselves into them to make them complete.

[jon]

Im sorry, i didnt mean to come accross so badly :(
My reason for posting was not to offend only to play but sometimes im not so good at either.
My quoting is just something i do becouse i find it easyer to construct my thoughts i dont mean to be rude when i do it.

You know ive always liked your posts but sometimes i do get a little nitty at somethings you address to me, i often at first fail to comprehend properly what your trying to say.
As i say i like your posts sui-fuw and consider us as at least online friends. Please dont take offense to me as offending you was not my aim.
Im often defensive sui-fuw and i state this in all honesty its one of my biggest charactor flaws and one i try to deal with on a regular basis. You would think after all this time my self confidence would be a little higher but thats why im still a student and still follow dilligently others who properly understand what some may term as 'the way'.
Thats my overly personal post for the day, again im sorry if i offended my intent was not to attack you, i would not be so presumptious again.
All the best
Jon

P.S i know your intent on the wheelchair issue was good, my pick was only on the way you tried to imply that you shouldnt speak becouse of something i had said. Which of course i didnt want becouse i like your posts.
ok now im feeling like a fool so im gonna go walk around a post for a while or something:D

[jon]

yum-cha
"Jon in his so terribly consciencious manner"
* RIGHT NOW WE DUEL!!!

Oh yeah, i would proberly lose:(

Gawd i need a holiday, and less being slapped around.

[Yum Cha]

Sui Fuw, of course you are right. But, you don't need me to tell you that, right?

How was your trip to HK? Any good snake around?

Jon, I hear you tai chi guys are pretty fearsome, I'll take a rain-check.

[fiercest tiger]

kiss and make up ***gots..hehehe love you all!!:)

[MonkeySlap Too]

Man, I couldn't read all of those posts...

Good Xing Yi is excellent. I also find S.Mantis to be a superb system. Both are hard to find.

[Leimeng]

~From personal experiance I can say that I have been hit hard by both Wing Chun and Hsing Yi people. (Also got hit by a guy that did iron palm for about 5 years, hurt like hell....)
~On the basic level what is more important than the style is how hard a person trains and absorbs the information from their instructors and their internal and external conditioning. A taekwondo guy that works out hard will beat a lazy shaolin guy anyday.
~Assuming that two people of different styles both put an adequet amount of time and effort into there respective styles, and assuming that both are relatively equal in conditioning and size, most of the time you will not see a terrific difference in ability for about 2- 3 years. Most people quit before this time soo...
~Having said that, and with a few more than 2- 3 years experiance in various of maritial arts, I would pick Hsing I over any art out there with the exception of BaGua Zhang.
~I respect the for real Wing Chun and White Eyebrow guys though as well as the real Shaolin, Karate, Arnis, etc types....
~The Iron palm guy hit me in the ass (most flesh there...) I was bruised and could hardly walk for a few days. Would not want to get hit upside the head or spine like that though for sure.
~If you have the chance to study real Hsing I or BaguaZhang, then do so. Unfortunately most places that offer it are not really that great. Shop around.


Peace

Sin Loi


yi beng, kan xue (With one beng {hit}, you should {immediately} see blood

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Leiming,

i diagree with you that there isn't much difference within the period of 2-3 years. The difference actually occurs from about 3 months onwards.

i don't see how one can be "monkey-slapped" in the butt by a southern peactitioner in iron palm. they move very slowly and need a lot of prep up time before delivering a "monkey-slap". Unless one stuck his but out and held it still for a minimum of 20secs there's nothing to worry about.

[jon]

Ego
Do you believe in god?

[Leimeng]

~A correctly performed Iron Palm strike does not take 20 seconds to set up. Assuming a person has trained correctly and diligently then after the initial one - two year period a good Iron Palm practicioner would be able issue the strike at will.
~A skilled Iron Palm practioner will probably have a minimum of three years experiance before they start to learn the iron palm. Hopefully they have enough experiance and mobility to hit most part of an opponent with relative ease. If a person does not have requisite mobility, strength, agility, technique, attitude, etc, they should not try to learn iron palm in the first place. The individual I was working with at that time had about 15 years total CMA experiance. Plenty to be able to get a strike off.
~The assumtion I made about the three years is that both practicioners are equally skilled, sized and diligent in training. (Very, very hard to match up, I admit...)
~I suggest finding sources of information other than Shaw Brothers movies and mass media magazines. There is a lot of stuff that will never be learned from such sources.
~EGO... If you are in a wheel chair, then you might want to learn some of the QiGongs in Hsing I and find someone to rub some jow on your back and limbs. Add some serious prayer to that and you might be suprised.....


Peace,

Sin Loi

yi beng, kan xue

[Leimeng]

~A knowledgeable diligent iron palm practicioner should be able to deliver an iron palm strike to anywhere on the body as quick as a normal strike after 2-3 years.
~Most instructors who have iron palm are going to make sure that the student has several years of training under their belt before teaching it. The time is needed for several reasons to include making sure the student is healthy enough internally and externally to handle the training, make sure the student has decent technique with good control, and in some instances to make sure the student is ready.
~I have not noticed any major difference in ablities until about two to three years most of the time between different groups of hard working students.
~After ten to fifteen years though, Hsing I and Bagua blow anything else that comes along out of the water.
~Shaw Brothers movies and most mass media related to martial arts is generally not a good source of information.
EGO.... If you are in a wheel chair then you might want to consider having someone rub some good Jow on your back and limbs, learning some Hsing I Qigong, and spending a few hours a day in prayer. You might be suprised at the results. Heck, I will pray for you also.

Peace,

Sin Loi

yi beng, kan xue